The latent sexism of the male marriage proposal

[boston bean]

When I got engaged earlier this year, well-meaning friends excitedly asked "how he proposed" — and then immediately looked at my left hand.

I've been told I can thank the Archduke Maximilian of Austria, who proposed to Mary of Burgundy with a diamond ring in 1477, for such instincts. But maybe I should thank the originators: the prehistoric men who demonstrated their control over women by tying braided grass around their wrists and ankles.

You'd think the obvious sexism of the modern proposal would rankle my progressive friends. Yes, plenty of brides have men in their bridal parties, more and more women are ditching the "virginal" white dress, and guys aren't running to ask their fiancees' fathers for "permission" to marry them anymore. But our culture still, overwhelmingly, pushes the traditional male proposal: down on one knee, with a sparkly diamond (and often a flash mob) in tow.

Tracy Clark-Flory at Salon argues that the male proposal is "a culturally sanctioned time for a man to show his tenderness." But the tradition pushes stereotypical gender roles: The "tender" man is still in control of the situation, while the woman is forced to take a passive role. And if a woman proposes to a man, it's seen as emasculating.

http://theweek.com/article/index/272376/the-latent-sexism-of-the-male-marriage-proposal

I wonder how many women have "basically" told the man in their lives to shit or get off the pot? So, I'm not so sure I agree 100% that in our society today, that most women are passive players in the game.

[Nye Bevan]

1. Women will next be welcome to propose marriage on February 29, 2016.

So it's not like they never have the opportunity.

[boston bean]

2. really? women are only allowed to propose on leap years?

LOL

[Nye Bevan]

3. .

http://www.timeanddate.com/date/leap-day-february-29.html

Women propose to their men
According to an old Irish legend, or possibly history, St Brigid struck a deal with St Patrick to allow women to propose to men – and not just the other way around – every four years. This is believed to have been introduced to balance the traditional roles of men and women in a similar way to how Leap Day balances the calendar.

[boston bean]

4. that's a fun little ditty....

[susanr516]

64. I proposed to my husband

He accepted. We will be celebrating our 30th anniversary in 2 months.

[KitSileya]

5. No matter whether the couple do the traditional proposal or not,

or which one does the proposal if they do, it is a subject that should be discussed between them beforehand. To spring it on your partner blind, and worse, to surprise your partner in public with an elaborate proposal, is an awful thing. It puts the proposee on the spot in such a way that is painful to watch or hear about. How can you say no to your partner, or even maybe, if he or she has arranged an elaborate proposal in public, often involving your family and friends, or at least the help of strangers? That is enormous pressure.

I am reminded of the proposal of one guy, who had arranged with a tv host to stage a fake interview with his girlfriend. She thought that she had been invited on the show to talk about her volunteer work, which she was passionately engaged in, and for which was incredibly excited to get increased visibility. She worked with her boyfriend for days on what she would say, and had even practiced in the car on the way to the studio. Then, before she finishes even the first sentence, the host interrupts her, and tell her that she was actually brought on the show for something else, and then her boyfriend proposes to her on live tv. They even laughed over how much she had prepared for the interview!

No, if you have ascertained that your SO wants or is ok with a proposal, as well as the manner of it, then go ahead. DO the most public proposal you can imagine. But don't do it without being 100% certain that your boyfriend or girlfriend will be ok with it.

[boston bean]

7. true.

http://www.smosh.com/smosh-pit/articles/7-marriage-proposals-went-horrifically-wrong

[tularetom]

6. Actually my wife proposed to me, her proposal began like this

"We have a problem…"

[boston bean]

11. I bet you a lot start out like that! LOL

[notadmblnd]

8. I remember how my husband proposed

he was standing in the bedroom hanging his clothes in the closet when he said "It's not that I want to..... but if I did, would you marry me?" Then I replied, "well since you don't want to, I'm not gonna tell you."

We got married about 4 years later.

[boston bean]

15. LOL, I love it! nt

[PassingFair]

9. My husband started to talk about marriage on our first "date"...

...well, our first date DID last 4 days!

One night, after he had moved in, he was talking about "what if we got married..."
I asked him if he was asking me or just talking...
He got up and dug out a ring setting that we had found while we were out walking,
super-glued a piece of green glass into it, and told me he was only asking if I was saying
"yes".

I said yes....we've been married for 25 years now.

After we got "engaged", people, mostly women, would ask to see "the ring"...
I would stick my hand out and show them that god-awful, glued together ring
and they would be STRUCK SPEECHLESS!!

Got a lot of mileage out of that ring!

I put it away when I got my gold band, which I wear all the time. Not to show
that I am "property", but to signal my "paired" status.

[boston bean]

10. I wanna hear more about those 4 days!!!! :)

[PassingFair]

34. Here's the wedding pic....

[IMG][/IMG]

[ScreamingMeemie]

39. Ohhhhh... that hair...

<3

Your wedding pictures are the best.

[PassingFair]

56. Yeah... He had some HAIR!!

He still looks good in the kilt though.... The legs are the last things to go!

[boston bean]

47. I love it... Now I'm only curiouser!!! LOL

[PassingFair]

57. We knew each other for over a year before that fateful night...

New Year's Eve 1986...
We worked for competing art studios and called on a lot of the same clients.
He had been expressly forbidden to date me, and he was the roommate of my biggest client.
We collided together at that New Year's party and never looked back.

[sendero]

13. It's so nice ..

... to read a happy story here! Sweet!

[AngryAmish]

12. To the author, there are fewer proposals every day

Little upside for most guys.

[Luminous Animal]

14. I proposed to my husband. Twelve years later, we finally got around to it.

[closeupready]

16. It's a well-known axiom of social science that traditionally

in the West, women marry up. That is, marriage is a traditional means for a woman of mid-to-low class family background to propel her into a better life and better economic prospects.

So while traditional marriage is fraught with latent misogyny, it's also a means towards FIGHTING the symptoms of misogynistic discrimination. A paradox, but there it is.

[davidn3600]

29. The term you are looking for is hypergamy

It's not talked about much because it's a sensitive topic for many. But it's a big symptom of a social inequality.

[treestar]

59. But that is not true any longer

Is it to be that the one who is richer makes the proposal?

[GeorgeGist]

17. I've often wondered how many women say Yes ...

because they don't want to embarrass the man.

My wife gave me the ultimatum. Either we get married or she was moving out.

I'm grateful I said Yes. She's a saint.

[Cleita]

19. Your story is more common than you might think.

Also, many a poor boyfriend has had his heart broken because she said no to his proposal making him gun shy.

[Cleita]

18. Unlike the movie or romance novel version, most of

my female peers including myself did the proposing, which went something like this:

"Let's get married."

"We should get married."

"I'm pregnant. I think we need to get married."

...and many many others.

Then there was a trip to buy the ring afterwards. In my case I didn't want a ring. We bought simple gold rings for the wedding ceremony, which we seldom wore after. I do believe our marriage lasted until my husband's death because we didn't put much into the conventions and traditions of marriage like other couples did.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

20. We had an unorthodox discussion on this topic:

We were out driving (I was doing the driving, IIRC) when I asked him:

"Are you ever going to propose to me?"

"Oh, one of these days...

(significant pause)

You're not going to turn me down, are you?"

(another pause)

"Probably not.." arched eyebrow


We got engaged when my ring was finished being cast.

It'll be 50 years next June.

[boston bean]

21. Peggy, I think your experience is probably quite common!

Congrats on the 50 years!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

24. After reading your thread, I have to agree! Thanks for the good wishes, my dear Boston Bean!

[Ykcutnek]

22. I think the traditional proposals are more common with snooty upper class folks.

Like the guys you see on YouTube who spend thousands on some elaborate scenario.

Us poor folk talk about it first and go through the motions, usually waiting until we have money we'll never have.

[boston bean]

25. I think you are correct. Most people discuss these things prior to engagement.

It's not how they portray it in the movies.

[hobbit709]

23. Donna proposed to me and I was smart enough to accept.

[stone space]

26. Flash Mob???

Interesting idea, but it does carry some risk.

I mean, what if he or she says "no"?



Might very well come away wishing that they had chosen a somewhat more intimate setting.

Depends on the level of self-confidence, I suppose. And risk-tolerance.

[boston bean]

27. from a tv show..

[stone space]

32. I'm pretty confident when I know that...

...screen writers have my back.




For us, I don't remember making a big scene out of a formal proposal, but it was my idea, and I was in kind of a hurry since we faced a July deadline at the time, if I recall correctly, due to the 1996 Immigration Train Wreck.

We got married on July 3rd, since it was the only day we both had off work.

Our honeymoon had to wait until our 16th Anniversary, but we did finally get around to it in the summer 1013.

Better late than never!

[davidn3600]

28. I've always thought the reason women dont do it is because they're afraid of the possible rejection

...so men assume they are the ones that have to make the move and do it.

I've always thought proposing puts women in awkward position. Especially when they do those public proposals in stadiums and such. She must feel enormous pressure to say yes even if she might not want to. Sometimes those things are cringe-worthy.

It can also set the marriage off on the wrong foot if the guy feels as though he's now owed something from the wife because he paid for the dates, bought the ring, made the proposal, etc...

A lot of it is also brainwashing by De Beers. Corporations control our society and perpetuate traditions way more than people realize. Movies, TV shows, even cartoons do it too. We grow up with that stuff. Rings, weddings, and honeymoons are very, VERY big business...especially for a commercialized and materialistic society that western world tends to be.

[nolabear]

30. I swear, DU is starting to sound like Portlandia.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

36. Or the writers of Portlandia owe somebody some royalty payments. nt

[hunter]

31. I'm from a strongly matriarchal family.

The man always knows when it's time to either propose or flee in terror.

My wild west great grandma continued to test the men who'd married into her family until the day she died.

I'm pretty sure she thought it was her sacred Earth Mother duty to dispose of the bad men. My dad passed her tests because he could catch fish and serve them for dinner, her horses and dogs liked him, and he's an artist. He even passed the crazy little grandma-in-law-waving-a-big-knife-in-his-face test. I was five, I remember that.

I also remember my great grandma cutting apart fish, birds, and small mammals for dinner faster than I could comprehend the movements of her hands and her knife. I've no doubt she could cut up a bad man too.

Much weirdness.

In a crowded two room cabin without indoor plumbing there's not much privacy. In Scandinavian tradition, transplanted to the American Wild West, nobody cared. I saw eighty year old boobs, her nipples like two eyes just above her navel. The girls in our family actually bathed with her, no reason to waste water heated on the wood stove and poured into the galvanized metal tub. My sister writes some funny stories.

My wife is a child of similar Native American and Gaelic matriarchies. My proposal was simply a formality. Our hearts were one before our big Catholic wedding.

[nomorenomore08]

50. You just might have the most interesting life story of any DU'er.

And I mean that as a compliment, just so we're clear.

[hunter]

54. .

[nomorenomore08]

55. In all seriousness, I've had a few (mis)adventures myself, but my autobiography would be boring

as hell compared to yours.

[Liberal Veteran]

33. We talked about it, but thought it would be kinda weird to have a woman make the proposal....

....since we were both men.

[Quackers]

53. Lol

[Threedifferentones]

35. I'm short on time, but the article seems to gloss over the fact that most women prefer it this way.

Look, I'm totally open minded and want to be equal partners with my GF and eventual wife. But, I have found that many seemingly modern and progressive women still insist upon the man taking the lead at every major milestone. We ask her for the first date, we move in for the first kiss, we ask her over for the first sex, and we have to propose marriage with ring in hand.

Just a couple weeks ago I was out with a woman at a bar getting to know her a bit. She is very smart and her politics lean all the way left, or else I wouldn't even waste time on her. When the tab came and I told her I could pay my half with either cash or card or we could just ask the server to go back and split it, her jaw just about hit the floor. She ASSUMES that a man she is with is going to pay. She did pay half, but low and behold even though we seemed to get a long she no longer has time to see me socially.

If women don't like it this way, and I know I don't, then I suggest women start taking the lead, because right now it seems to me that if I don't play along with some of this patriarchal BS I may be lonely for a long time.

For instance, my younger sister, who makes me feel awesome and proud of my last name every day, asked her current BF out on the first date. Now that IMO is feminism is practice.

Finally, I would just like to say that growing up under patriarchy does not excuse the entitled and passive attitudes of the traditional woman any more than it excuses the entitled and overly aggressive attitudes of the traditional man. We all grew up under a fucked up patriarchal society; I haven't let it turn me in to an abusive asshole and my sister hasn't let it turn her in to a manipulative asshole. That's the way it should be if you ask me.

[davidn3600]

37. That's sort of what I was saying...

...I think a majority of women prefer the man to take the lead and the first step in matters concerning relationships and marriage. In fact if you read the bottom of the article, it says women are a big reason for these old marriage traditions and why they continue today.

Although some feminists are trying to change this up a bit, women as a whole are not really stepping up and taking the initiative for one reason or another. It may be a comfort zone thing. I've heard some women say that they are afraid it might make them look desperate if they make first moves. Others say they are just old fashioned. Others admit they fear rejection or just feel like it's the man's job to do it.

Every society has customs and transitions concerning marriages. These customs have proven to be incredibly difficult to break. They are extremely persistent. No doubt the patriarchy drew up these rules. But most men are becoming very flexible here, they are willing to have things changed. Young men especially see absolutely nothing wrong with women making the first moves. It's women that have really yet to make a move to crush this aspect of patriarchy. Until that happens, men are going to continue playing by the old rules. Because otherwise, they'll be single forever.

[treestar]

44. men telling us what we prefer

enough!

In an ideal world, you'd marry someone you were pretty sure about to the point where no one has to make some big proposal.

[davidn3600]

48. Just making an observation, no reason to get hostile

Why don't you tell us what you prefer then.. what do women want? Men have been asking that question for centuries...

And it certainly doesn't help the cause for equality when you have women like Beyonce (who claims to be a feminist) writing music telling men that they "better put a ring on it."

[treestar]

43. they might be afraid of being called desperate

there is this old fashioned thing out there, that makes me mad, but I've had it applied to me.

And the thought that if he wanted to, he would not have that hesitation about asking.

It's so odd how these relationships are these days. It's like you have to sleep with them, pretending you want nothing much more out of it for a long period of time, and they will break up with you if you are ahead of them. At some point, there must be a coming together of having a life together. Then given the divorce rate, it seems simpler to do away with marriage altogether. It's so mature and boring and unromantic it's amazing it still exists.

[yuiyoshida]

38. I seem to remember this video that I

Just laughed over. This guy proposed to his girl friend at the ball park, with the big screen on them and she put her hand over her face and laughed. She said "hell no!" and left the ball park and the poor guy was the on the big screen so embarrassed. I think the crowd went "oooooooooooohhhhhh". It was kinda funny to me, but He should have known.. I guess.

[ScreamingMeemie]

40. My proposal from my husband began with,"I was driving over here to break up with you..."

Amazing, eh?

[boston bean]

46. hahaha... I imagine something you said

made him re-think! LOL I'm imagining a bunch of things you might have said...

[alarimer]

41. I turned my boyfriend down twice.

The first time, I had no idea what he was asking. And on both those occasions it was much too soon. And we've had a couple breakups and long-distance episodes since then, so it's never really been right.

I've always been the gun-shy one, mostly because I don't see marriage as a necessity in my life. Why can't we live together forever?

BUT then I went to my sister's wedding (and he went with me) and it was just so sweet and lovely. Seriously, I've never been to a wedding where everything went pretty much according to plan. And so we started talking about it again. So we have sort of tentatively agreed that once we live in the same city again, we probably will marry.

[treestar]

42. The down on th knee things seems to be a more recent re-introdlluction of some old custom

Though the only proposals I actually see are on TV. And what's with the asking of the parents? That is really old and misogynistic. That seems to have been bought back quite recently. If the parents say no it means nothing but trouble. Maybe if the parties get along, it is a nice way to announce it to them.

[fizzgig]

45. my husband's proposal was decidedly not romantic

we'd been together about six weeks and decided to make a late-night run to ihop. he parked the car, turned to me and said "let's get married." it came completely out of the blue, but i was head over heels for him. i didn't get a ring from him until the christmas after we got married and it was a dual engagement/wedding ring. no diamonds, no frills and i absolutely love it.

[freeplessinseattle]

49. when I was 2O (22 yrs ago) this chump somehow convinced me to pay for my own ring

Then after we bought it at a mall store walked down to my mall job and he got down on bended knee in the backroom.

Pretty lame proposal, but thank my lucky stars that I left him only 6 months later and have been committed to singlehood ever since!

[CTyankee]

51. hubby says he proposed to me on bended knee...I'm not so sure...

but it's OK. I was a lonely and tired divorcee who had no job prospects at the time. He offered me a new chance with him and I took it. We had been together for a couple of years and he had gotten a new job up in New England. I was ready to leave No. Virginia and had been out of work for several months. Time for a change and a chance for a better life in New Haven. I jumped at the chance.

I love New Haven. No regrets.

[rug]

52. I bet there are more proposals now while holding a pregnancy test instead of a ring.

[Humanist_Activist]

60. That seems counterintuitive, with the wider availability...

of contraceptives, and far less stigma attached to unmarried couples living together and having children, it seems far less likely that shotgun marriages happen at nearly the same rate as they did before.

[rug]

61. It has nothing to do with shotguns. It has more to do with the reality of a child.

There's a lot less social pressure to marry, with or without a child, but if two people are committed to each other and are about to have a child, there are lot of legal and material advantages to marriage. It's probably more the death of romantic notions of marriage than anything.

[REP]

58. We had gotten to a point in our lives where we both had enough assets to be worth protecting

A marriage license was cheaper than a lawyer drawing up all paperwork to cover what marriage confers (ps, equal marriage now pls) plus he just really wanted to get married. He gave me a gorgeous ring because he knows I like jewelry. He's not into jewelry but could not wait to wear his wedding band, so I gave him one of my plain gold rings to wear until the formal legal document signing.

[Bluenorthwest]

62. This is a fantastically hetero-assumptive article and thread.

It even uses the term 'stereotypical gender roles' while assuming that a male proposal is always offered to a female and that marriage is hetero exclusive. Which is fairly breathtaking actually.

[msanthrope]

63. I was waiting for you on this thread...and I'm so glad you showed up. nt

[Doctor_J]

65. Oh, the horrors

"Would you do me the honor of spending my last 50 years with me, building a life and a family together"?

"Well, I would have, until you insulted me and my entire gender my asking me"