No matter what Jackie said, we should automatically believe rape claims

[Recursion]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/06/no-matter-what-jackie-said-we-should-automatically-believe-rape-claims/

(Emphasis mine.)

In last month’s deep and damning Rolling Stone report about sexual assault at the University of Virginia, a reporter told the story of “Jackie,” who said she was gang raped at a fraternity party and then essentially ignored by the administration. It helped dramatize what happens when the claims of victims are not taken seriously.

Now the narrative appears to be falling apart: Her rapist wasn’t in the frat that she says he was a member of; the house held no party on the night of the assault; and other details are wobbly. Many people (not least U-Va. administrators) will be tempted to see this as a reminder that officials, reporters and the general public should hear both sides of the story and collect all the evidence before coming to a conclusion in rape cases. This is what we mean in America when we say someone is “innocent until proven guilty.” After all, look what happened to the Duke lacrosse players.

In important ways, this is wrong. We should believe, as a matter of default, what an accuser says. Ultimately, the costs of wrongly disbelieving a survivor far outweigh the costs of calling someone a rapist. Even if Jackie fabricated her account, U-Va. should have taken her word for it during the period while they endeavored to prove or disprove the accusation. This is not a legal argument about what standards we should use in the courts; it’s a moral one, about what happens outside the legal system.

The accused would have a rough period. He might be suspended from his job; friends might defriend him on Facebook. In the case of Bill Cosby, we might have to stop watching his shows, consuming his books or buying tickets to his traveling stand-up routine. But false accusations are exceedingly rare, and errors can be undone by an investigation that clears the accused, especially if it is done quickly.

Type I, Type II errors. I think she has a point. (Though on the other hand I don't think Jackie was "ignored" by the administration; the Dean offered her a choice of going to the police and two types of internal resolutions.)

[NewDeal_Dem]

1. "false accusations are exceedingly rare"

I hear this said a lot, but I don't see the justification for the claim.

[Recursion]

2. "False" reports aren't what actually worry people, though

What worries people (this is judging from comments in previous threads) is the much more common case of two very drunk people at a party having sex and where and to what extent consent and responsibility attach there.

[marions ghost]

3. There is no percentage in false accusations

--I don't have stats for you (maybe you can find some) but it's fair to say they are exceedingly rare.

[Recursion]

4. Is that even a question that can be meaningfully answered statistically?

I've always been wary of arguments one way or the other about that: it implies the kind of perfect knowledge that, if we had, would solve the problem anyways.

False crime reports in general are fairly rare. Malicious wholecloth fabrication of rape claims are too (I can say that with absolute confidence). What really worries people, it seems to me, is cases where the assailant did not consider his action rape at the time. (To which I say, well, a change in how we handle rape cases is how you change that.)

[marions ghost]

6. Difficult statistically...right

You make a good point in that handling rape cases differently is the best way to deal with all of this "grey area" of consent.

Everybody knows what rape is, and the rapist knows he has raped someone IMO. He has crossed the line not because he doesn't know very well where the line is, but because of his boundary-challenged personality flaws (esp when intoxicated), and society's complicity --he doesn't have to care.

People who rape have serious disturbances. It is not normal behavior. But it is socially sanctioned in our current twisted world.

[Recursion]

7. Exactly. Maxwell's proposal is a form of education

Even if rape convictions between two people who know each other are legally difficult, social consequences can work as a form of education.

[NewDeal_Dem]

5. Why wouldn't there be a percentage in false accusations? Depends on the circumstances.

Money, revenge spring to mind.

[marions ghost]

8. That might be the fantasy

but it's not the reality.

[NewDeal_Dem]

22. Except (according to the OP) if it were a black man accused pre-Civil Rights era. Because racism

is the only reason a woman might falsely accuse someone of rape, I guess.

I just disagree, sorry.

[marions ghost]

24. OK we differ

I just don't think there is much incentive for false rape accusations--certainly not formal, legal route ones-- and I don't see it happening much. But maybe in the social media world we now live in --it could be easier to smear someone without the truth being known--but OTOH just as much doubt could be cast on the accuser the same way. I just don't see the fear as being born out in reality. It makes me wonder what other fears hide behind this particular one. Most men have no need to fear false rape accusations. It is irrational. If you know what you're doing with your body parts.

[NewDeal_Dem]

25. What do men's fears have to do with it? I doubt most men fear false rape accusations; it doesn't

mean they don't happen.

Are you also assuming I'm male?

[marions ghost]

26. Not making assumptions about you

and not saying false accusations don't happen, just that it's rare.

I do sense a fear of such accusations in you and others who bring it up right away in a thread about changing the way we as a society respond to rape (of either men or women).

[NewDeal_Dem]

27. Being female, I'm not particularly scared of being accused of rape. But the

idea that false accusations are especially rare seems odd to me.

The OP seemed to think false accusations against black men weren't especially rare -- why is this the exception to the supposed general rule -- no one but racist white women has any reason to make false rape accusations?

Doesn't pass the smell test.

[marions ghost]

28. Do you know of ANY men personally

whose lives have been turned upside down by a rape accusation? I know none.

Yes it's hard to get a fix on it statistically, but the point is OFTEN used as a weapon to deter women's gaining any justice in cases of rape. "Falsely accused" operates well as a defense whether true or not. Because so many people believe in it.

[NewDeal_Dem]

38. Personally? No. Neither do I personally know any women whose lives have

been turned upside down because of rape.

But both happen.

Gross and his report co-author, University of Michigan law school graduate Michael Shaffer, discovered correlations in the types of crimes and reasons for wrongful convictions.
•Fabricated crimes. False convictions in child sex abuse cases were usually due to fabricated crimes; sometimes a divorced parent told a child to make up lies about an ex-spouse abusing them, or police or a therapist convinced a child to say something that wasn't true.
•Eyewitness mistakes. In adult rape cases, for example, false convictions were typically based on eyewitness mistakes, "more often than not, mistakes by white victims falsely identifying black defendants," the report said.
•Misconduct by authorities. For homicides, misconduct by authorities was the second-biggest cause of false convictions, just behind false eyewitness accounts.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/21/11756575-researchers-more-than-2000-false-convictions-in-past-23-years?lite

[Recursion]

9. White men complaining (now) about the dangers of false rape accusations would be funny

if it weren't so fucking sad and pathetic.

[NewDeal_Dem]

12. You're saying I'm a white man? I wonder how you know that.

(Sorry, not used to the posts list, got the threads messed up so had to edit)

[Recursion]

13. (Side note: the threading is confusing at first. I still make that mistake and I've been here years)

All I can say is "make very sure what is above your text field when you post"

[marions ghost]

14. yeah what's that about?

(tho I don't know why exactly you would differentiate "white" --except to align it with white male privilege in general I guess)...

Yeah it's strange that men are so afraid of false accusations of rape, which if they are behaving as they know they should (even instinctively they know it, never mind the messages otherwise)--they will never have that happen to them.

We all know what it is to be personally violated in any way. We all know.

Probably it has to do with other factors, other fears being transferred. But I do think it's an irrational fear that needs to be heard, since it's not uncommon.

[Recursion]

15. I differentiated "white" because of the use of rape allegations to murder men of color

I'm a southerner; maybe that connection is more obvious to me?

[NewDeal_Dem]

16. Those were false rape allegations, correct? But you say today we're automatically supposed to

believe rape accusations?

Except when the accused is black?

I'm really getting confused.

[Recursion]

18. All of them?

[NewDeal_Dem]

19. Sorry, your position is too confusing. You're the one who said false rape allegations were used

against black men, which is why you narrowed your comments to include only white men.

Which I assume meant you thought we should automatically believe rape allegations against white men but not black men.

I'm too tired to parse your logic.

[Recursion]

20. I am large; I contain multitudes

There are options besides "no social response to a rape allegation" and "lynching persons accused of rape".

[NewDeal_Dem]

23. I don't think those were the alternatives mentioned in the article.

[Recursion]

32. Yes they were. For instance, suspend the accused student from school. (nt)

[NewDeal_Dem]

34. huh?

"There are options besides "no social response to a rape allegation" and "lynching persons accused of rape"."


"We should believe, as a matter of default, what an accuser says."

[Recursion]

35. Now you're getting it

The author is suggesting that socially we default to believing the accuser in rape allegations, while not calling for the lynching of persons accused.

[NewDeal_Dem]

40. No, here's what I said:

"I don't think those were the alternatives mentioned in the article."

[marions ghost]

17. point taken

clarification needed, thx.

[Jenoch]

11. The word 'automatically' raises problems for me.

[Recursion]

21. And well it may. There are problems with any way of handling it

This is why I brought up Type I and Type II errors.

[True Blue Door]

29. However rare false accusations of rape are

if you treat accusations as guilt, falsehood will be magnified. That's just human nature.

It does not serve women to give rapists a plausible defense that they are being presumed guilty.

[Recursion]

41. Well the heavy presumption of innocence colleges use now sure as hell isn't serving rape victims

(Note that this isn't just about women; many males are sexually victimized in college as well -- c.f. Penn State.)

[True Blue Door]

42. The law is a shield, not a sword. And so must be any institutional power.

Even if it's just an associative power like college student discipline.

[SheilaT]

30. I'm a woman. And while I do not want to go into details,

there have been two times in my life that I've been raped. I never reported them as such, and the circumstances were sufficiently ambiguous that a rape charge would have been difficult to prove. But please believe me when I say the sex was not fully consensual. Women do not report rape as often as it happens.

I suppose the real problem is making men understand that a No means No, not maybe, and absolutely not yes. We women can only go so far. It is up to men to make all of this clear.

[redgreenandblue]

31. It is strange to see Feminists and the far right essentially making the same argument,

one with regards to terrorism and the other with regards to rape: If the crime is serious enough we as a society cannot afford to wait for the slow and cumbersome legal system to work its way. We need to prevent false negatives at all costs.

I personally think that America needs less authoritarianism, not more of it. I think I'll stick with the centuries old standard of "in dubio pro reo".

By the way: I think Bill Cosby is guilty as hell.

[NaturalHigh]

33. Change "automatically believe" to "thoroughly investigate" and I'm with you 100%.

If the claim is automatically believed, then someone is considered guilty until proven innocent. I'm not willing to go there, and nobody who truly believes in justice should be either.

[Recursion]

39. Presumption of innocence only exists in a legal context, which we aren't talking about (nt)

[MicaelS]

36. Amazing how the notion of "Presumed Innocence" goes out the window

When it comes to accusations of rape.

[Recursion]

37. OFFS, it gets brought up every twenty-three seconds when people talk about rape

And it gets brought up in places where it doesn't actually apply, like for instance social and administrative responses to allegations (neither of which carry with them a presumption of innocence).