Without prosecution for torture, we've lost all credibility

[marym625]

Last edited Fri Dec 12, 2014, 10:52 AM - Edit history (2)

Senator Barack Obama called those that broke US and international law by using torture, criminals. Candidate Obama softened his words on investigation and prosecution. Eventually, President Obama, gave immunity to the guilty parties and even worked to block any prosecution both nationally and internationally.

Whether you are a staunch Obama supporter, someone that has slowly found fault with his policies or have had problems with his actions, or lack of actions, from the beginning, the current dismissive attitude shouldn't be a surprise. The words, however, are a bit shocking.

Even with the attitude not being a surprise, that is not to say that the words are not outrageous. The one sentence, "we tortured some folks" is dismissive and should never have come from the leader of the free world. Even with Executive Order 13491, which ended the torture allowed by Bush, the words spoken by President Obama since May of this year, will make it difficult to defend ourselves and others against the torture of US citizens or any people. We will be hard pressed to oppose and condemn torture by any government of their own citizens or citizens of other countries.

I don't understand why this is being defended by anyone. I don't understand the excuse that the President's hands are tied. We have prosecuted those that tortured, including Japanese people after WWII for water boarding, and we shouldn't be any easier on US people. We didn't allow the Germans to get away with the "just following orders" and we should not be immune to the same.

It isn't just the report itself that will put our citizens and military in danger of being tortured, it is our lack of action to bring those who performed it, and ordered it, to justice. We have lost all credibility.

The links below are both reference to factual events and opinions throughout the last decade. I am not saying, by posting them, that every opinion is correct. I just wanted to post reminders of what was being said and done at the time they were published. Most of the links include links and reference to other relevant articles. I included one post from DU that was well received back in 2003.

http://m.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/05/19/letter-congress-continuation-national-emergency-respect-stabilization-ir

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1605312&mesg_id=1605312

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/07/1349523/-President-Obama-s-nuclear-option-on-torture

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/16/AR2009041602768.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/31/obama-justice-department-immunity-bush-cia-torturer

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/12/wikileaks-cable-obama-quashed-torture-investigation

http://ccrjustice.org/learn-more/faqs/accountability-and-prosecutions-torture

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/20/AR2009012004743.html

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2009/02/rend-f03.html

http://m.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/EnsuringLawfulInterrogations

[KingCharlemagne]

1. Taibbi, in Rolling Stone, recently:

Because you can't send hundreds of thousands of people to court every year on broken-taillight-type misdemeanors and expect people to sit still while yet another coroner-declared homicide goes unindicted. It just won't hold. If the law isn't the same everywhere, it's not legitimate. And in these neighborhoods, what we have doesn't come close to looking like one single set of laws anymore.

When that perception sinks in, it's not just going to be one Eric Garner deciding that listening to police orders "ends today." It's going to be everyone. And man, what a mess that's going to be.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-police-in-america-are-becoming-illegitimate-20141205?page=2

Substitute the phrase 'torture and crime against humanity' for 'coroner-declared homicide' and you'll see how President Obama's diffidence undermines the rule of law.

[marym625]

3. Thank you for the link

I hadn't seen that. And exactly, just substitute the words and there ya go

[appal_jack]

55. k&r for the OP & this reply too. nt

[99Forever]

2. Thank you Mary.

Our national integrity has been trashed and will not recover as long as the AMERICAN perpetrators of these Crimes Against Humanity walk free and unindicted.

[marym625]

6. exactly.

I tried to be as balanced as I can. I just don't understand how this is being excused by anyone. This is too important. Too big.

We have made ourselves the world police. And now that is reflected in ways that never should be happening. It's difficult to separate the lack of prosecution of police that shot and kill unarmed citizens and the torture going without prosecution.

[SamKnause]

4. The United States of America

has zero credibility !!!!

since the end of WW ll they have ignored international laws

they have illegally invaded countries

they have sponsored coups

they have assassinated democratically elected leaders

they have placed sanctions on countries that caused the deaths of millions (1/2 million children for the Iraq sanctions that president Bill Clinton imposed)

they declared a war on the citizens of the U.S. that has spread globally (The Failed War on Drugs)

they spy on U.S. citizens and the world

they protect Wall Street at all costs demanding that we use our tax dollars to bail them out

they do not prosecute torturers

they incarcerate their citizens with a vengeance

they have given police the power to kill without fear of retribution

I am ashamed and embarrassed at the things the government of the United States of America has done.

[marym625]

8. You are not alone

Makes me very sad. The hope we had just 6 short years ago. Just so very sad.

[SamKnause]

10. Agree

[tblue]

30. Agree

[Dustlawyer]

23. When the CIA and MI6 overthrew the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran in 1953

over their oil, and installed the Shah of Iran we set about the chain of events that caused the hostage crisis and our current poor relations with Iran. Everytime we have meddled with the other smaller, weaker nations it has come back to bite us in the ass!
We are the most hypocritical nation on earth and now we should really stop proclaiming that we are a beacon of freedom for the world, and all that other BS that is no longer true, if it ever was.

The fall of this country is happening much faster than Rome's did. We have no one to blame but ourselves. It is our responsibility as citizens to protect our Democracy and we have failed. The rich and powerful have taken control over all areas of our government and judicial system. They own the means of communication and use it to delude the general population that we are #1! American Exceptionalism stands for being the most corrupt, ignorant, brain washed, spyed upon citizens in the industrial world. We are not willing to face the truth, much less do anything about it.

We need to radically change our system of electing our Representatives to insure that they cannot be legally bought as they are now. We need to bust up the oligopolies in banking and media and dramatically pull back militarily. We need to insure a good education and health care to all citizens, and we will not be able to do any of this until Representative Democracy is restored and the propaganda of the Plutocrats is ceased. The demand of Publically Funded Elections and an end to all campaign contributions, revolving doors, and Super Pacs is where I think we should start.

It will require American citizens to actively take part in our Democracy, the failure has been ours for allowing this to happen!

[marym625]

59. You reminded me of a post I put up in July 2013

After Trayvon Martin was murdered. The post was, "We're all to blame" caught some shit on that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023253648

I agree with you completely

[Dustlawyer]

62. I agree with your 2013 post as well. Too many sit back, and while sympathetic, think "it's not

my job." Well it is our job as citizens to do more than vote and serve for jury duty (if they even do that).
Now, in order to have a shot at ending the corruption of our political system we will have to engage massive numbers of Americans dedicated to ending corporate control over all three branches of government, or media and financial institutions. Sadly, we are nowhere close to that being a reality. Many here even agree with me that we need Publicly Funded Elections and an end to campaign contributions, but they are not even willing to spread the word while in front of their computers.

[marym625]

63. hell, I have been doing that for years

At the keyboard and every where.

I am afraid that we may be too late. Even with the numbers. Too much control has been taken from the people. The only way to get it back would be full on revolt. And a handful of people from Ferguson, NYC, Chicago, Oakland, twitter, Facebook and DU won't do it.

[Dustlawyer]

66. Too right! Don't ever stop trying! Thanks Mary!

[marym625]

68. Thank you! n/t

[marym625]

72. Funny, that 2013 post lost 2 recs since I posted it here

I guess a couple people decided they no longer agree.

Interesting. Wonder what might have caused that.

[MannyGoldstein]

5. America is a country that tortures, and shelters torturers

We still engage in extraordinary rendition, a.k.a. outsourced torture.

We spy on everyone, in the US and abroad.

Always money for war, but the number of homeless children has almost doubled in the last few years.

Minorities hassled and gunned down by cops at staggering rates.

A population that mostly rejects science.

(And it's all the Left's fault.)

We have some work to do.

Great post, Mary.

[marym625]

9. I actually started a post the other day

About how we rank internationally in education, wages, etc. But then the torture report came out.

Thank you

[Enthusiast]

7. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch! nt

[marym625]

11. Thank you. n/t

[Live and Learn]

12. K&R nt

[marym625]

13. Thank you

It means a lot coming from you, my friend

[ann---]

14. Absolutely

[marym625]

21. wish the ptb agreed n/t

[randome]

15. "All men are created equal."

We didn't have credibility from Day One. Yet still the rest of the world looks up to us.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[marym625]

16. Very true

Although I believe that should be "looked" up to us. Since dubya that has dwindled

[randome]

25. Which is simply proof that we're no better nor worse than everyone else.

It sort of smacks of 'American Exceptionalism' to think that our 'minor' crimes (compared to much of the rest of the world) make us an international pariah.

Other governments that have tortured would not be having the conversation we are having. It's small consolation, of course, and it doesn't even begin to address those who were tortured, but we still care about having these conversations in public.

As little as that is, it's at least something.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[marym625]

28. It is something

That's true. But as the guy from Amnesty International said, acknowledgment is not the same as accountability.

When we start using the excuse that we're still better than the worst, we're headed toward the worst. Not you, I mean our government

[randome]

36. I hear you. I definitely wasn't suggesting we should 'forget' about it all.

I would love to see heads roll for this. Not sure at this point if it's going to happen but I'm a little more optimistic today than a few days ago.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[marym625]

39. I was optimistic about the budget bill failing in the house

And then it passed. Not going to hope that something will happen here. Especially not from within the US.

I knew you weren't suggesting that.

[20score]

17. We are legally obligated to prosecute these assholes,

but we were legally obligated to forego torture in the first place. So I don't hold out much hope that anyone high up will ever be held to account. Maybe some other country will indict.

Good post!

[marym625]

19. Thank you, 20score

I have tremendous respect for you. Not to diminish my respect for many but it was coming across a post of yours years ago that started my lurking and eventual membership here.

I agree with you. I do think that another country will. I don't believe even the powers that be will be able to stop it.

[Thespian2]

18. K & R +++

America is in deep trouble because of the insane and inane politicians and corporate overlords completely corrupting the system that should be working for all the people all the time.

When Cheney, Bush, et al, are standing before the international court trying to defend their crimes against humanity, American people might see a reason for believing in its government again.

[marym625]

20. amen to that! n/t

[TRoN33]

27. It would be better if our own government prosecute W. Bush and his administration.

[TRoN33]

22. Agreed.

Playing the popular online game I rather not to mention, I got an invitation to join this group which happens to have one member from Pakistan who have the screen name, Osama bin laden. Someone else in group note that I'm only one American on the team. She asked me if I took it personally with Osama bin laden screen name. My response? Americans never had and have no right to lecture on others anymore. My government is biggest hypocrites on this world. I don't have any right to be mad anymore. She said good answer. This team of 25 happens to be in top five for that game out of probably 600-1,000 teams.

[marym625]

26. congrats on the game

If I'm supposed to know what game you're talking about, forget it. You could spell it out and I wouldn't know. Not a gamer in any way.

I recently watched Missing again. I had forgotten about Ed Horman suing the government. Amazing how long some of the guilty in that movie stayed in power in the the US. We haven't had the right to feed our holier-than-thou platitudes for decades.

[daleanime]

24. K&R....

[marym625]

74. Thank you. n/t

[merrily]

29. For that reason and others, we've lost security, too.

I cannot imagine how hated we must be around the world for many of our acts and omissions and wars, how many must want revenge.

[marym625]

35. Neither can I.

For a country that's told not to be sanctimonious about our use of torture, we sure act sanctimonious to the rest of the world.

[world wide wally]

31. I don't see any difference between a prosecutor protecting a cop who killed an unarmed person

and the President protecting his predecessor for committing torture and war crimes.
In both cases, a privileged individual gets off scot free because of their connections at the expense of what is right. Only the country and the "little" people live with the consequences.
That's the truth and the American way. Too bad about that justice thingy.

[marym625]

38. Yeah, that damn "justice thingy"

Just keeps popping up and annoying the ptb.

[2naSalit]

45. Absolutely!

I was trying to put those in comparison earlier but couldn't do it as succinctly as you have here.

[librechik]

32. we've already lost all credibility. Now we have a chance to redeem ourselves

and "Most Americans" just don't want to. Not to mention any of the parties who could do something about it.

We like who we are. Pure, spotless, and heroic. We're number 1!

[marym625]

41. oy vey!

You're right, sadly. In the words of Scott Walker, "molotov!"

[woo me with science]

33. Hear, hear. K&R

[marym625]

42. Thanks, Doll! n/the :)

[Bobcat]

34. Justice Jackson

An Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court at the time, Jackson was the chief United States prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials following WWII.


"If certain acts of violation of treaties are crimes, they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them, and we are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us."

International Conference on Military Trials, London, 1945, Dept. of State Pub.No. 3080 (1949), p. 330.

[marym625]

43. Great quote!

Thank you.

I recently watched the movie again, Judgment at Nuremberg, and it just made me feel more ashamed. Imagine how some of those Judges would feel now.

[Autumn]

37. Bookmarking. Thank you for your work on this, I wish I could rec this OP a 100 times.

Excellent post.

[marym625]

44. Thank you, Autumn.

[ReRe]

40. There is one way...

... but it would require that someone step forward and fill the gaping abyss that was left when Robert Byrd passed. He was known as "The Conscience of the Senate." The Senate could sign the document that appears to be just laying there waiting for a majority vote and signature: The signatory document for membership in the ICC (International Criminal Court.) It has already been signed by a President (WJC in 1999,) and all it needs is a positive vote in the Senate and bam, we will be a member of the ICC. At that point, if we can't bring ourselves to do the right thing about our lawlessness, the ICC would be able to step in and hold our feet to the proverbial fire. They WOULD step in and hold our leaders accountable when they perpetrated crimes against humanity.

The only drawback is: there doesn't seem to be any "conscience" in the Senate anymore. It would have to be Harry Reid. He would have to whip up the votes and call the vote and then sign that sucker. PO wouldn't have to sign it, because it already has Bill Clinton's signature on it. And it would have to be done NOW. Before everyone leaves for Christmas.

Fat chance, huh? And that is so sad. Harry Reid might have been a boxer in his younger days, but there's just no fight left in him. He's probably spooked in the morning when he sees himself in the mirror in the bathroom.

Remember the 1977 interview with President Nixon, when he said "If the President does it, that means it's NOT illegal?" That's really how his mind worked. He really believed that. But had he not resigned, Republicans AND Democrats were poised to impeach him.

[marym625]

46. Funny, I was thinking about both those things

The people that backed Pres. Obama no matter what that are feeling let down and amazed made me remember all the Republicans that could no longer defend Nixon.

Also was thinking about Byrd. How he stood up for what was right. Voted against the illegal war and the Patriot Act. He is one of the very few that had a horrible past steeped in racism and actually admitted his wrongs and apologized.

Yes, the only one I believe that has the backbone to do it would be Warren. Though, there are a couple others. Maybe we should start a campaign to a few and see what happens.

[ReRe]

50. She could put a bug in Harry's ear...

... I can just see her peering over the top of those glasses perched low on her nose. "Now, Harry, there's another issue we need to take up before Christmas break...."

The window is about to close for two more years before the issue could be revisited, when the Dems have the leadership in the Senate again in Jan 2017. She's definitely got her hands full today, BUT if we want to contact her about this we can't waste any time. As soon as they vote on the 2015 budget, they're out of there. Their bags are packed, hell, their bags are probably already at the airport.

[marym625]

53. I'm making a couple calls n/t

[ReRe]

57. I love you.

I hope others will too!

[marym625]

58. I love you too!

Thank you!

Are you going to DC tomorrow?

[ReRe]

60. What would ever lead you to believe...

... that I would be in DC tomorrow? I wish. I wish I lived there! I'd spend all my time reading at the National Archives or at the LOC.

[marym625]

61. Just wondered

The big rally is tomorrow. I wanted to go so badly. Even made hotel reservations immediately after Sharpton announced it and got a great rate at the Hyatt. But, alas, just couldn't afford it.

[ReRe]

65. OH... now I see what you meant...

... too far away for me, lousy health. I hope C-Span shows up so I can watch it.

[marym625]

67. Me too

I hope your health improves or at least you feel better.
I am hoping that there is a coinciding protest in Chicago. It's going to be unseasonably warm tomorrow so I will be there. (Yeah, I am a weather wimp)

[ReRe]

88. I think it was on Rachel...

... tonight, she showed some of the city names of different protests that will be happening tomorrow in conjunction with the DC rally and march. Scrolled down quite a way on the list. Don't remember seeing Chicago, but I'd be willing to bet that there will be a large one there too, somewhere near the Police Dept downtown? Wild guess. Get off the computer and work on your poster, then get some sleep!

[marym625]

89. Are you from here?

Actually, it is just a mile from my apartment. The protest, not the police station. Surprising and perfect!

Get some sleep too. Thank you!

[2naSalit]

47. K&R

[marym625]

75. Thank you. n/t

[rock]

48. Incredibly, we are a jackboot nation

[marym625]

64. I should have put that little guy in the OP

[raouldukelives]

49. K&R nt

[marym625]

76. Thank you. n/t

[librechik]

51. Bush/Cheney made torture legitimate US policy

and a mere president can't change the policy. The civil servants in charge stay, the president comes and goes.

We have to get to the people who run our country and think torture is perfectly fine for evil people, as long as they get to say who is evil.

Who are those people that preserve the rules and policies of our secret institutions? The Senate is trying to exercise it's constitutional oversight powers now. It's a brave move, but totally co-opped and smeared by adversaries within the government.

Who are they? It's hard to say, because their names are largely secret or deliberately "minor." Infact, evidence is destroyed and withheld to the point where clarity can't be achieved.

We torture. Millions of us are fed on a steady diet of tv and movies where torture is part of practically every plot, and fictionally (and satisfyingly) always works. We will do torture again, because many people think it's justified, and the remainder are frightened or ineffectual.

We torture, that is who we are. I didn't vote for that. Did you?

[marym625]

54. no. not in my name

I did sign the "not in our name" pledge way back when. Evidently, and sadly, Senator Obama did not.

[Odin2005]

52. The ideological edifice of the system has fallen off and...

...the violence that ultimately backs the system shows its ugly head.

[marym625]

56. Well said. Thank you. n/t

[wildbilln864]

69. k & fucking r! n/t

[marym625]

70. Thank you! my first k & fucking r! LOVE it! n/t

[Oilwellian]

71. Excellent post, marym

K&R

[marym625]

73. Thank you. n/t

[marym625]

77. Just an FYI

I know some people think it's wrong to respond to every reply to a post. I think if someone is kind enough, or mad enough, to reply, I should at least acknowledge them.

I am not condemning people who don't. Just what I think.

[JustAnotherGen]

78. The Malaysia war crime tribunal

Convicted our leadership in abstentia two years ago.

Bush and Blair for war crimes in 2011.

I don't know if WE will ever do it on our own. But for those of us with global reach - and with global officials and activists -

We've got to get busy. Because if we never throw Bush Co in prison - I want them to know they can't go to Germany, Italy, France, Republic of Ireland (had some interesting discussions in trips abroad there during the Bush Admin - they would be a good start), The Netherlands, etc. etc.

I'd also love to see someone like Paul Kagame (Rwanda) have one of the open courts Rwanda has had in the aftermath of their genocide.

I want them to know they are really only welcome in places like UAE for the rest of their natural lives . . . Or rather they can go - but they will be thrown in prison.

Didn't Germany already convict/give warning to Gin Rummy there?

[marym625]

79. sounds familiar but not positive

And I forgot about Malaysia. Thank you. There is a South American country that Bush can't go to either for the same reason. Can't recall which and don't have time to look it up right now. I will later

Thank you for the post!

[JustAnotherGen]

80. I think it fell short - but here's an opening

http://ccrjustice.org/ourcases/current-cases/german-war-crimes-complaint-against-donald-rumsfeld,-et-al.
Center for Constitutional Rights

Status
In November 2007, CCR, FIDH, and RAV appealed the decision of the German Federal Prosecutor not to open an investigation. On April 21, 2009, the Stuttgart Regional Appeals Court dismissed the appeal. See the original and the translated Court decision attached below. A motion for reconsideration was filed on May 25, 2009.

Description

Executive Summary of the Complaint’s Allegations:

From Donald Rumsfeld on down, the political and military leaders in charge of ordering, allowing and implementing abusive interrogation techniques in the context of the “War on Terror” since September 11, 2001, must be investigated and held accountable. The complaint alleges that American military and civilian high-ranking officials named as defendants in the case have committed war crimes against detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and in the U.S.-controlled Guantánamo Bay prison camp.

The complaint alleges that the defendants “ordered” war crimes, “aided or abetted” war crimes, or “failed, as civilian superiors or military commanders, to prevent their commission by subordinates, or to punish their subordinates,” actions that are explicitly criminalized by German law. The U.S. administration has treated hundreds if not thousands of detainees in a coercive manner, in accordance with “harsh interrogation techniques” ordered by Secretary Rumsfeld himself that legally constitute torture and/or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, in blatant violation of the provisions of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, the 1984 Convention Against Torture and the 1977 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights – to all of which the United States is a party. Under international humanitarian treaty and customary law, and as re-stated in German law, these acts of torture and/or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment constitute war crimes.

The U.S. torture program that resulted in war crimes was aided and abetted by the government lawyers also named in this case: former Chief White House Counsel (and current Attorney General) Alberto R. Gonzales, former Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee, former Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo, General Counsel of the Department of Defense William James Haynes, II and Vice President Chief Counsel David S. Addington. While some of them claim to merely have given legal opinions, those opinions were false or clearly erroneous and given in a context where it was known and foreseeable to these lawyers that torture would be the result. Not only was torture foreseeable, but this legal advice was given to facilitate and aid and abet torture as well as to attempt to immunize those who tortured. Without these opinions, the torture program could not have occurred. The infamous “Torture Memo” dated August 1, 2002, is the key document that redefined torture so narrowly that such classic and age old torture techniques as water-boarding were authorized to be employed and were employed by U.S. officials against detainees.

Why Germany?

The complaint is being filed under the Code of Crimes against International Law (CCIL), enacted by Germany in compliance with the Rome Statute creating the International Criminal Court in 2002, which Germany ratified. The CCIL provides for “universal jurisdiction” for war crimes, crimes of genocide and crimes against humanity. It enables the German Federal Prosecutor to investigate and prosecute crimes constituting a violation of the CCIL, irrespective of the location of the defendant or plaintiff, the place where the crime was carried out, or the nationality of the persons involved.

No international courts or personal tribunals in Iraq were mandated to conduct investigations and prosecutions of responsible U.S. officials. The United States has refused to join the International Criminal Court, thereby foreclosing the option of pursuing a prosecution before it. Iraq has no authority to prosecute. Furthermore, the U.S. gave immunity to all its personnel in Iraq from Iraqi prosecution. All this added to the United States’ unquestionable refusal to look at the responsibility of those of the very top of the chain of command and named in the present complaint, and the recent passage of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (see below) aimed at preventing war crimes prosecutions against Americans in the U.S., German courts are seen as a last resort to obtain justice for those victims of abuse and torture while detained by the United States.

[marym625]

81. Thank you very much

I will have to read the link later but wanted to thank you before I had to go

[dirtydickcheney]

82. Thank you for the insightful post! n/t

[marym625]

84. Thank you. n/t

[joeybee12]

83. We lost all credibility when we inaugurated a President who hadn't won the election...nt

[marym625]

85. There's that too. yep.

[joeybee12]

86. And if we hadn't done that, we wouldn't be discussing torture today...

because it would not have happened.

[marym625]

87. True. Unfortunately,

It did and we are.

Just all so fucked up

[woo me with science]

90. kick .....And by the way,

THANK YOU for the superb collection of links.

Everyone, please go to the links.

[marym625]

91. Thank you!

I appreciate that.