Thomas Jefferson on religious institutions

[Playinghardball]

[Sherman A1]

1. I recommend to you

The Thomas Jefferson Hour, it's available on iTunes or a quick web search.

I listen to the podcasts when I am commuting and greatly enjoy them.

[elleng]

2. Thanks for reminding US, Playing;

NOW to the 'Others.'

[philly_bob]

3. Great quote. Where did he say that? (n/t)

[harmonicon]

4. Jefferson then added...

"and by 'free society,' I mean that I get to own slaves. Ha! Take that, fuckers!!"

[Flaxbee]

5. Enlightenment rarely happens at one fell swoop.

It takes time.

Old TJ got the religion part right, though.

[harmonicon]

6. That's like people who'll say, "Oh, but Hitler did good things too!"

I call bullshit. It's not a secret that people knew that slavery was wrong when Jefferson was alive. You only have to look so far as other people who founded the country - and others hundreds and thousands of years before that. Excusing Jefferson's ENSLAVEMENT OF HUMAN BEINGS as a product of his time is no different than explaining a genocide as a product of whatever time one happens in. People are always going to do fucked up shit knowing damn well that it's wrong. I think it's high time that we stop heaping praise on someone who could be so incredibly evil.

[Major Nikon]

9. Judging people who lived 200 years ago by today's standards is pointless

[harmonicon]

10. Judging them by their own standards is fine though.

It's not as if people at that time didn't know that slavery was wrong. Benjamin Franklin knew it was wrong, as did John Adams, etc. Judging people from the 30's by today's standards also doesn't accomplish much, but people at that time also knew that Jim Crow laws were wrong.

[Major Nikon]

12. People knew centuries ago that slavery was wrong

Does that make Jesus a bad person for not condemning it? People in 1860 knew that racism was wrong, yet Abraham Lincoln was a racist. Does that make him a bad person too? People in 1960 knew that misogyny was wrong, yet JFK was a misogynist. What about him? Should we bulldoze all the ancient buildings in Rome because they were built by slaves?

So where does it end? Do we have to dismiss anything done by anyone throughout history because they knew what they were doing was wrong, but did it anyway? What about today? We know that burning fossil fuels is wrong. Does that make you a bad person because you fill your car up even though you have other choices?

As far as Jefferson and slavery goes, he did do things to limit the scope of slavery during his public career so obviously he knew it was wrong, but he also knew lots of other things were wrong also. Because he didn't take a personal stand against each one of them does not make him a bad person.

[harmonicon]

13. There's a difference between not taking a stand against something and engaging in it.

Lincoln may have been a racist, but what about his actions? Racist or not, he signed the emancipation proclamation.

No, I don't think we should bulldoze ancient buildings built by slaves, but I also don't think we should glorify Roman Emperors the way we do racist American presidents.

Where does it end? Well, for me, I think engaging in the forced slavery of human beings isn't such a fucking fine line. I think that's pretty damn clear.

Also, burning fossils fuels isn't wrong - it's great. It's fucking brilliant. How, when, why, to what extent, etc. it's done is another matter. I don't think the same holds for SLAVERY. I'm pretty sure that's wrong and has always been wrong in every case.

[Major Nikon]

15. The entire country was engaging in it to one degree or another

The entire US economy was entwined with slavery, North and South, at the time. So maybe lots of people knew it was wrong, but nobody was doing much about it. Even in the North, slavery was still being practiced many decades after Jefferson was dead and gone. So sure there might have been a few people who were condemning slavery during Jefferson's time, but not many, and just about everyone except the slaves themselves were taking advantage of it in one way or another. Both you and I are taking advantage of the fact that early immigrants ran Native Americans off their land. 50 years from now, lots of the things we do routinely will be condemned by people of the future. Times change. Attitudes change. What's regarded as acceptable and unacceptable changes. That's why judging people over time which constantly changing standards is pointless.

[harmonicon]

17. No, judging people on whether or not they kept and owned slaves has a point.

This is why we have standards. They do change, and that's a good thing. I would like to think that they have changed enough that it would be a commonly held notion that a man who thought it was ok to OWN HUMAN BEINGS AS PROPERTY would be reviled, not revered. Apparently common standards just have not changed enough.

[Nye Bevan]

18. John Adams wasn't (nt)

[Union Scribe]

16. Precisely.

Well put. I'm tired of this POS being excused.

[Nye Bevan]

8. And he then added, "and I like to rape my female slaves. Because I can. Double Ha!"

My favorite Founding Father is John Adams.

[harmonicon]

11. I go with Benjamin Franklin, but I like Adams as well.

It boggles my mind that people here defend actions in the past which they would condemn if done today.

[Quixote1818]

7. kick

[mmonk]

14. Actually, that is not a quote by Jefferson.

It was a commentary or summary by the late Eyler Robert Coates, Sr. in a collection of Jefferson quotes on politics and government, hosted by UVA, and is actually Coates' introductory summary. It expresses Jefferson's opinions as evidenced by his letters, but is not a direct quotation of Jefferson.

http://guides.lib.virginia.edu/TJ