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Sat Dec 20, 2014, 07:56 PM

Cops have a very dangerous job at times, but let's be clear:

Even after today's tragic events, cops should not be allowed to transfer the danger/inherent risks of their job onto regular citizens.

If a man quickly reaches into his pocket, an officer might be concerned that the man is reaching for a gun. The second or two it takes to determine whether it's a wallet or a gun is the risk that police officers signed up for. In recent years, however, all of the risk is being placed on unarmed citizens during police encounters. When did this become OK?

Even after today's tragic incidents, we should not stand for cops acting in a "trigger happy" fashion just because they're afraid. Any cop who is at the point where she or he is too afraid to interact with the public in a responsible manner should resign.

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Reply Cops have a very dangerous job at times, but let's be clear: (Original post)
apples and oranges Dec 2014 OP
socialist_n_TN Dec 2014 #1
apples and oranges Dec 2014 #3
brush Dec 2014 #30
Savannahmann Dec 2014 #42
socialist_n_TN Dec 2014 #44
etherealtruth Dec 2014 #2
rhett o rick Dec 2014 #4
Action_Patrol Dec 2014 #11
ret5hd Dec 2014 #26
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #27
ecstatic Dec 2014 #29
etherealtruth Dec 2014 #40
Raine Dec 2014 #43
lpbk2713 Dec 2014 #5
treestar Dec 2014 #6
F4lconF16 Dec 2014 #7
treestar Dec 2014 #12
tkmorris Dec 2014 #24
ecstatic Dec 2014 #28
Tsiyu Dec 2014 #35
Logical Dec 2014 #8
treestar Dec 2014 #13
Logical Dec 2014 #16
treestar Dec 2014 #18
Logical Dec 2014 #21
NutmegYankee Dec 2014 #37
TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #17
treestar Dec 2014 #19
Logical Dec 2014 #22
TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #25
brush Dec 2014 #31
helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #10
treestar Dec 2014 #14
lame54 Dec 2014 #15
treestar Dec 2014 #20
Rex Dec 2014 #34
markpkessinger Dec 2014 #36
justiceischeap Dec 2014 #41
Katashi_itto Dec 2014 #23
Rex Dec 2014 #33
helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #9
U4ikLefty Dec 2014 #32
LuvNewcastle Dec 2014 #38
Logical Dec 2014 #45
WhiteAndNerdy Dec 2014 #39

Response to apples and oranges (Original post)

Sat Dec 20, 2014, 08:11 PM

1. Somehow I became FB "friends" with a cop......

His post after today's shooting was a rant about it being "on" and disobeying the orders of politicians and he ended with the quote "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6". So yeah, I can see how this is not going to end well for a LOT of people, cops and civilians both.

As far as I'm concerned your last paragraph says it all. If any cop is too afraid to interact with the public in a responsible manner, they SHOULD resign.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 20, 2014, 08:16 PM

3. Exactly. That's the rhetoric I've been hearing as well

Comments about "war" and how "ugly" things are going to get. That's not OK. This is another case of a deranged person getting a gun and killing people, just that this time, it's cops. The vast majority of citizens are not cop killers and therefore deserve the benefit of doubt during encounters with the police.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 11:35 PM

30. Exactly.

I am so tired of scared cops panicking out of fear and then killing someone.

That Wilson cop in Ferguson is a prime example. He even testified to that very fact to the grand jury Brown was a "demon" and he feared for his life.

Yeah, right.

If he hadn't escalated a minor pedestrian offense to chasing down and killing an unarmed teen, he might not have been "afraid".

Whether he was afraid or just pissed off because the kid ran, he killed an unarmed person.

All the other cops that find themselves afraid to do their job don't belong on the job.

What did they thing being a policeman was all aabout, tiddlewinks?

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 22, 2014, 07:49 AM

42. Interesting.

 

I'm stuck using 2008 numbers, but you'll see what I'm talking about in a minute. I am a writer. I considered a post apocalyptic novel, and did some research. It is not a subject that I have any real fascination about. Nor do I think that it will come about, but the books seem to be popular. So I've got some familiarity on the scenario.

Since there are about 1 million police officers in the nation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States

Let's say there are another 150,000 Federal Agents. We'll make it 1,250,000 badge carrying people with the power of arrest. I know, the numbers don't add up, but we'll add in the reserve officers and the recently retired that could be called back.

There are over 315 million people in the United States. There are already enough guns in the population to give every man, woman, and child over the age of 15 a gun. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/04/a-minority-of-americans-own-guns-but-just-how-many-is-unclear/

But let's say that the one percent of the population that are "police" are going to war with the rest of us. Even those without guns are hardly unarmed. Viet-Nam, Afghanistan, and Iraq has taught us that a poorly armed irregular force is not one to be taken lightly. So the Police would begin this war badly outnumbered, seriously outgunned, and almost certainly ill prepared.

But let's check that Dedication level shall we? Where were the police on day three of Katrina? We know they were in the city when Katrina hit. But we also know that a vast majority of them, as in nearly all, departed the city when the going got really tough. So the cops are prepared for two, or let's double that four days of real hardship.

So police as far as the community is concerned are at best, a fair weather friend. They're outnumbered three hundred to one. They're out gunned by more than two hundred to one. They may think they're trained for combat with all that military crap. But the veterans that would likely take charge of the irregular forces that would spring up would certainly know how to defeat that equipment.

So in a war, where the population turned against them, the police could conceivably control a few blocks in most cities, while being surrounded by an angry mob with vision colored by a red mist demanding blood.

Now, we've seen three hundred to one odds in the past. The Spartans of Thermopylae fame were part of a larger greek force that faced those kinds of odds according to legend. The defenders at the Alamo faced odds roughly half that. You could argue that the Spartan's were the most formidable force of their era. Yet those same Spartans were eventually defeated. I don't think we're going to propose the idea that the police are the equivalent of the Spartan Warriors of lore and legend.

Now, I think we've demonstrated that your FB friend is an idiot. My father had some advice for a cousin who had joined the military and had returned home with new Sergeant Stripes sewn to his sleeves. My father said that while leading those soldiers, every once in a while look over your shoulder to make sure they're still following you.

The Police should look over their shoulders about now, because their supporters are dwindling, and soon they're going to be standing in the Valley of the Little Big Horn and wondering where all those Indians came from. (I know they're called Native Americans or Indigenous Americans these days, but the joke doesn't work with that so please forgive me)

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #42)

Mon Dec 22, 2014, 10:07 AM

44. I don't disagree that he's an idiot......

I also keep a "libertarian" FB friend around for the same reason I don't "ignore" anyone on here. I like to know what the idiots are thinking.

What I think is happening is that this cop and others of his mindset have bought into the "public is on our side" argument. That and the "Thin Blue Line" idea that the public will miss them if they're gone. And there's some element of truth to both of those lines of thinking. But those are numerical values. If the cops act like an occupying army, they will be treated like an occupying army WHEN THEY PISS OFF AND VIOLENTLY OPPRESS ENOUGH PEOPLE.

In addition, the "slowdown" in public police response will quite possibly lead to OTHER models and organs of community policing, that MIGHT make a professional force obsolete. We'll have to see about that, but the possibilities are there for this to happen.

Oh yeah, I agree with your assessment. If enough people are oppressed by the cops that some sort of low-level insurgency happens, the cops might last a few days to a week at most. Then they'll give up those badges and disappear into the populace. Of course they'll be even more dangerous then as a gang.

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Response to apples and oranges (Original post)

Sat Dec 20, 2014, 08:11 PM

2. It is very clear in my mind ... cops murdering / using exessive force is reprehensible ....

... and will no longer be tolerated.

Murdering a cop is reprehensible and is not tolerated.

The story (today) of the two cops murdered is horrific .... it was the act of a deranged (evil?) man. My heart breaks for the families of those two officers and all that loved them. sickeningly ...these types of random acts of horror are committed ...against the police and against non-police.

Cops murdering/ using excessive force WILL NO LONGER BE TOLERATED. Murdering COPS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

These are not mutually exclusive ideas!

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 20, 2014, 08:26 PM

4. Well said. nm

 

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 03:57 PM

11. Holy shit! Common sense.

I'm a huge fan of you

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 10:26 PM

26. Murdering cops has NEVER been tolerated!!!

WTF are you going on about? Not once, ever, even once (in my lifetime at least, and I will bet the same goes for you)
has killing a cop been tolerated. A cop gets shot and helicopters go up, dragnets and roadblocks are erected, television stations around the entire area are putting up pictures of suspects, etc etc etc.

A kid gets killed by the cops and what happens? They DERIDE us for protesting. They MOCK us for demanding justice.

There is no equivalence. Don't try to foist that idea on us.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 11:03 PM

27. +infinity. nt

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 11:14 PM

29. ditto. + Infinity nt

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 22, 2014, 06:35 AM

40. Perhaps if you reread ... you will see that I made the distinction ....

.... that murdering cops was NOT tolerated vs police brutality and murder NO LONGER being tolerated. You appear to have drawn an odd inference from that.

There was a reason for my choice in words, so to quote you "WTF are you going on about? "

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 22, 2014, 08:01 AM

43. EXACTLY!!! nt

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Response to apples and oranges (Original post)

Sat Dec 20, 2014, 08:35 PM

5. I haven't had any interaction with police for several years.




So if I fall into their hands for any official reason I hope I have the presence of mind to avoid any sudden moves or reach into my pocket with being told. It could get me hurt or killed. It's not the same law enforcement that I remember.

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Response to apples and oranges (Original post)

Sat Dec 20, 2014, 09:12 PM

6. They don't sign up to be killed though

And society doesn't go through all that training for them to get them killed either. So if cops arrest you, don't resist. Go and argue the case in the courts. In the end that's what started most of this.

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Response to treestar (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 03:46 PM

7. Yes, great idea.

So if cops arrest you, don't resist. Go and argue the case in the courts. In the end that's what started most of this.

My rights as a citizen don't matter if it's a cop who wants to violate them, clearly. I'll just wait politely while they abuse me, and then I'll go pursue the case in courts that have been shown time and time again to be biased and exceedingly unlikely to help. After all, it's my fault for thinking I had rights.

Yeah, screw that. I'm resisting with all the courage I can muster.

Cops don't sign up to be killed, yes, but doesn't mean they can ignore my rights out of fear. They accept a certain amount of risk when taking the job.

Also, you forget that most of us don't have the luxury of fighting it in the courts after. I couldn't afford it, that's for sure. You also forget that in the process of letting yourself be arrested without resistance, if you're black, you could be shot anyways.

Now is not the time to allow abuse of our rights. We need to fight this emerging police state with everything we have.

(I still can't believe you pinned this on the citizens for not letting their rights be trampled upon.)

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Response to F4lconF16 (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 04:36 PM

12. Go to court to assert your rights!

That's where you can do it safely! Damn! This is just dumb. In the event they violate your rights, you challenge them in court. That's the point of having courts. That's where tons of case law regarding the Bill of Rights developed.

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Response to treestar (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 05:20 PM

24. Oh you are SO right

All you have to do if the police violate your rights is to tell your story in court. Works every time!

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Response to treestar (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 11:09 PM

28. The courts helped Trayvon, Jordan, Brown, Garner get justice...

Oh, wait.. they actually didn't. Sounds great on paper though.

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 22, 2014, 12:14 AM

35. Some people live in TV Land

They have no clue what today's courts are like.

There is precious little justice in the courts EXCEPT for cops. DAs want the cops wrapped around their fingers so they can get convictions and add money to the county or city coffers.

THIS system must change.

Today's DA's are no more than salespeople for fascism, drumming up business - and it is BIG BUSINESS to harass and arrest poor people. Those 4 cent an hour prison jobs gotta be filled so the corporations ( PEOPLE ) stay happy and fat. The county needs money, so why not scrape it off the backs of the poor, the disabled?

Trust me, you don't see a lot of rich people in court for stupid offenses.

What a joke, to even suggest if cops abuse you, you can go to the courts.

All of you who responded as you did, ecstatic, get a

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Response to treestar (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 03:49 PM

8. Really, are you paying attention? You blame all the victims for behaving incorrectly now? Classy....

 

So the police beating the SHIT out of people are their fault?

Wow, typical of you.

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Response to Logical (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 04:37 PM

13. I was responding to the concept that cops "sign up for" getting shot

As the default. And yes, you shouldn't resist arrest. It's stupid. Assert your rights in court. Typical of you to value emotion and fighting over law and peace.

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Response to treestar (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 04:50 PM

16. Well, sometimes when a cop is beating you you tend to instinctively defend yourself. Stu[id people.

 



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Response to Logical (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 04:55 PM

18. Really so they beat people out of nowhere?

Just for the fun of it? Is that what you are claiming to be a common occurrence?

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Response to treestar (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 05:10 PM

21. YOU are claiming they never do?? Seriously? nt

 

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Response to treestar (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 04:51 PM

17. Dead people don't get to "assert their rights in court". You think Tamir Johnson was resisting in

the blink of an eye before he was gunned down?

Hell, what do you think happens in the real world following your advise if an encounter is brought through the chain? You get dismissed as a trouble maker and a joke.

Plus, you still don't want to accept that cops have no right to be judge, jury, and executioner if they feel you are "resisting". Now you have switched right to blaming the victims. The Garner fiasco is on tape, what was his death sentence offense?

Do you have any non authoritarian positions at all or are we merely subjects to be disposed of on a whim and property of the state to be treated as an "official" deems fit?

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 04:58 PM

19. Each case is different

That Tamir Rice case was awful. Those cops were in the wrong. Your dishonest attempt to claim one has to be on one side in every case is a fail.

You seem to label the rule of law as "authoritarian" and that people should be able to do whatever they want and no one should ever arrest them and every cop is in the wrong at all times. And ever thinking the cop not wrong is "authoritarian." Do you think there should be any laws and that we deserve any protection from actual criminals?

Cops do not have to let themselves be shot, either. That is not what they "sign up for." It is not "authoritarian" of them to defend themselves if the facts warrant it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 05:12 PM

22. But they DO sign up for a risky job......

 

But anymore they shoot immediately. They want no risk!!

Need some fucking videos? Or you get it now?

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Response to treestar (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 10:15 PM

25. What of law? You are talking about rule of law enforcement and pretending it is the rule of law

Then you go with a bunch of hyperventilating lies to justify a bunch of bullshit rationalizing murder of anyone the cops wish to eliminate unless on rare occasion you can't come with some thin branch to stand on to justify the rogue gang of lawless thugs.

No I don't believe the cops have the right to execute anyone they don't feel is cooperative. Resisting arrest is a charge that sees it's day in court like any other and is not a capital offense either.

No, I don't think a blue thug has the right to use arrest powers to harass and intimidate and when a citizen says something about it that they get to choke you out much less kill you.

No, I don't believe that absent compelling video evidence that I must just buy whatever clock and bull some fuck with a badge spits out.

Yes, I believe taking on the job means you don't get to put your skin first, second, and third and if that is too much to accept then yes I believe you have the wrong position. You are sworn to protect and serve the community, power and authority is vested in you to do so. You cannot protect and serve acting under the assumption of a war zone.

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Response to treestar (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 11:46 PM

31. The OP said cops sign up for a job that can at times be dangerous . . .

not that they sign up to be shot.

I agree with the poster, being a cop is not a desk job, it's not tiddleywinks. There are times that physical courage is required.

Recruits not prepared for that, shouldn't become a cop. We don't need scared cops whose first reaction is to shoot like the murderer of 12-year-old Tamir Rice. He shot the kid in what . . 2 seconds after getting out of his cruiser.

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Response to treestar (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 03:52 PM

10. Neither do convenience store clerks but do you support one saying it looked like he was

 

pulling a gun so I shot the person.


Guess which job has more guns pulled on them , Cops or Clerks

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Response to helpmetohelpyou (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 04:38 PM

14. A clerk would get self defense there

I don't see the point. Of course the clerk could defend themselves. Or, it would depend on the facts of the case. A reasonable belief you are about to be shot allows for self defense. But it has to be reasonable.



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Response to treestar (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 04:42 PM

15. because the court system is where you want to be

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Response to lame54 (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 04:59 PM

20. It is ridiculous to throw the court system out entirely

It does function, if not perfect, it basically does. Where did all those court cases come from - the ones that decided evidence would be excluded because the cops violated the Fourth Amendment?

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Response to treestar (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 11:55 PM

34. It's ridiculous to pretend some cops don't abuse their badge.

 

Or DAs for that matter, but you already knew that.

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Response to treestar (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 22, 2014, 12:21 AM

36. Please . . .

. . . it functions for those who can afford decent lawyers to defend them. Most people, however, have to rely on grossly underfunded, overworked, often inexperienced and in some cases incompetent public defenders. And for those folks the odds are stacked against them.

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Response to treestar (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 22, 2014, 07:17 AM

41. The court system does not function the same for all individuals

And to deny that is sticking ones head in the sand.

There are cops out there that get away with illegal stuff all the time, look at the recently posted video of the 12 yr old in NYC that was handcuffed, bent over a car and an undercover cop ran up and started punching him in the back--all this while he was surrounded by 3 or 4 other cops who had the situation well in hand. What was the kid doing? Asking why he was being arrested. I guess that constitutes resisting arrest these days.

As far as Eric Garner is concerned, there has been no proof set forth that he was selling loosie cigarettes the day he was killed. So how can he be resisting arrest if no crime was being committed in the first place? He was being harassed because he was known to cell loosies and he was tired of the harassment. Where was his right to assert that he couldn't be unlawfully arrested?

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Response to treestar (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 05:14 PM

23. Lol!

 

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Response to treestar (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 11:52 PM

33. Yeah...not like all the other jobs that people do sign up to be killed. Right?

 

Seriously, do you ever think about what you type before you actually do? Your strawman is sad, but expected.

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Response to apples and oranges (Original post)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 03:49 PM

9. As long as the cop got home safely

 

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Response to apples and oranges (Original post)

Sun Dec 21, 2014, 11:50 PM

32. Construction workers have much more dangerous job. nt

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 22, 2014, 04:38 AM

38. A lot of people do.

I've seen lists of the most dangerous jobs, and cops are way down the list. A cop died here recently when his car veered off the road and he hit a tree. You'd have thought it was the end of the world the way they were wailing over it on the news. It's sad when anyone dies, especially when it's unexpected, but now there seems to be this idea that cop deaths are something far worse than our little trivial civilian deaths. People are sick of seeing that attitude.

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #38)

Mon Dec 22, 2014, 10:11 AM

45. For some reason cop deaths are more important than normal people deaths. Nt

 

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Response to apples and oranges (Original post)

Mon Dec 22, 2014, 05:20 AM

39. Very well said.

I am afraid that incidents like the one in New York this weekend are only going to make at least some LEOs feel even more justified in using extreme methods, including lethal force, in dealing with members of the public. It's not rational -- this incident does not actually mean that the average person is a threat to officers -- but that is how some will feel, and it sets us back in solving the problem of police aggression. This incident is actually a distraction from the real problems, which are that (1.) aggressive people are attracted to police work, and applicants are not being properly screened for possible psych issues or other warning signs that they're not suitable for the job; and (2.) the militarization of the police, which encourages the us-vs.-them mentality of some officers. We need to make sure that people stay focused on the real issues or we're never going to find a solution to these problems.

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