Enough of the bs. Let's cut to the chase, shall we?

[CatWoman]

All you Zimmerman apologists -- your faith and belief in him and his ever-changing stories, as well as the tenacity of your "defense" f him shows one thing and one thing only: you agreed with what he did.

He murdered an unarmed teenager because the kid had the nerve to be in HIS neighborhood. A neighborhood in which Blacks, in his (and yours) opinion did not belong.

I wonder if you guys go birdwatching in your own neighborhoods packing heat?

[morningfog]

1. From what I can tell the apologists value "gun rights" over human life.

[marble falls]

3. Its not about guns, its about entitlement. Zimmerman felt entitled......

and he felt Trayvon was not entitled. If he'd had a club Treyvon may have had a better chance but he was going to be assaulted and possibly murdered.

[morningfog]

9. I don't disagree, but why does it seem most of the defenders/apologists/concern-ers

are the gun enthusiasts? Maybe it is that many of the gun obsessed derive their affinity for guns out of fear and a feeling that they need to protect themselves from threats, which is the same thinking that leads to SYG laws.

[jerseyjack]

15. NRA and gun manufacturers strive to scare the shit out of the public.

Now look here. We have the answer to what's scares you, Sparky.


You might also be interested in a BBC film, "The Power of Nightmares." It is available on Netflix. Explains much beyond just NRA. It explains foreign policy, Military, industrial Congressional complex, John Birch and even jihadism.

[zeemike]

19. Going to check that movie out. thanks...n/t

[duhneece]

232. I just added it to my queue

Thanks.

[blueamy66]

180. um, I'm thinking that there is a difference between

shooting someone with a bullet and smacking someone with a baseball bat

[obamanut2012]

63. It isn't about gun rights

though some are making it about that. It's about Zimmerman thinking he was entitled to be a vigilante, and that young black ales are all thugs, and didn't belong in his world.

[xtraxritical]

80. Apologists have no place on a jury.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

2. Actually Trayvon DID belong in the neighborhood. His father--who is black--lived there!

I can't understand why people find this difficult to comprehend.

[CatWoman]

4. you and I understand that

but they don't.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

5. I know, and that's because they want to make excuses for Zimmerman's behavior to

justify the killing of an unarmed young man. It's outrageous!!

[pinboy3niner]

6. It's the father's grilfriend who lives there

But it's the same thing--Trayvon had every right to be where he was.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

7. O.K., thanks for the correction, but you're right: Trayvon did belong in the neighborhood.

[vaberella]

12. It's the girlfriends house but the Father lives with the girlfriend.

So it's not completely wrong.

[rustydog]

269. Doesn't matter one whit...I ride my bike through neighborhoods I can't claim

by any measure to be mine and no one has the right to stop me and ask what I'm doing there.

[LynneSin]

22. Even if absolutely NO ONE connected to Trayvon lived in that neighborhood....

Trayvon Martin still did NOT deserve to die.

Every morning I go walking thru a very expensive neighborhood near my own. It's a good place to go walking and I like looking at the beautiful homes there.

I don't know anyone who lives in that neighborhood nor am I related to anyone in that neighborhood.

Does that give someone the right to shoot me for walking there in the mornings (and many times I am wearing a hoodie).

Just saying.

[ronnie624]

69. Yep.

Anyone has a right to be on any public street, anywhere.

In theory, anyway.

[KG]

8. DURec

[Snake Alchemist]

10. No need even for a trial. nt

[LaurenG]

13. Do you feel like explaining that?

No need for a trial?

[Snake Alchemist]

16. What's to explain?

People know exactly what happened from our media. Why waste the taxpayers money?

[CatWoman]

18. and why waste keystrokes

you broken ass record, you?

[Snake Alchemist]

20. So you natually agree that a trial is a waste of time. nt

[CatWoman]

23. no

I feel addressing you is a waste of time.

A mistake I won't make again.

[Snake Alchemist]

24. The mob generally does not like the mirror. nt

[Whisp]

28. nor does the NRA mob

some of whom have been convinced that if Zimmerman is found guilty then their precious guns are going to be taken away. If you want to talk Mob, That Is the Mob.

[Snake Alchemist]

34. Not sure the NRA has stated an opinion either way.

If Zimmerman is found guilty than that would be great. If he's found not guilty than that would be great too. I just hope it's a thorough trial. The trial is going to be fascinating either way.

[marshall gaines]

57. so

so if he is found not guilty then the message will be, a black person has no freedom to walk where they please, crime in the neighborhood or not, and will risk being accosted by whites by virtue of their black skin being in the 'wrong' part of town. Sounds like the 50's all over again. sad ignorant people with no conscience shoot down unarmed, non threatening "others". god bless america

[CatWoman]

58. "Help me or I'll shoot"

[Snake Alchemist]

66. Was that in the transcript? nt

[CatWoman]

122. might as well be

wasn't Georgie claiming he was the one yelling for help?

[Snake Alchemist]

65. So he has to be ruled guilty. nt

[Meiko]

71. So what you are

saying is that the only way justice can be served is if Zimmerman if found guilty regardless of the evidence.

[brush]

79. Guilty

He did initiate an altercation and kill an innocent, unarmed kid. He should be found guilty. If not for his actions Martin would be still be alive. It's beyond obvious that he should not be allowed to walk away unpunished. If he's found not guilty, anyone going about their business, even you, can be stopped, questioned and then shot and killed because the person that stopped you can say they felt threaten.

[Meiko]

107. I think that is a

bit of a stretch but your point is taken.

[HangOnKids]

90. No, the poster did NOT say that

That is your understanding of what YOU think the poster meant. Please speak for yourself and don't put words into the mouths of others.

[Meiko]

111. I didn't put any words in anyone's mouth

I only asked for clarification, which the poster provided. We are in partial agreement.

[HangOnKids]

120. Tip, when asking for clarification, you say " I am not sure I understand, can you explain?"

You do not say " So what you are saying" and then give your interpretation of what was said. That is called baiting. FOX does it all the time.

[Meiko]

283. OK

Sounds good to me but I think the poster I was talking to understood me OK.....I don't watch FOX news but it's interesting to note that you do.

[HangOnKids]

295. More Assumptions From You

I look at videos and read articles posted ABOUT Fox here and on other progressive sites. That shows me all I need to know about their propaganda techniques. I certainly do not WATCH Fox but thanks for the added snark.

[marshall gaines]

164. well

what's wrong with that, conservatives are just as uncompromising.zpunk apologists are just as adamant about him walking free. And after he is tried, execute him in the slowest, most painful manner. He did shoot an unarmed person. I won't debate it because zpunk apologists are idiots and don't deserve the time of day.

[AtheistCrusader]

87. The message will be based on the facts at trial.

Based on what we know PUBLICLY, I suspect he will be convicted. If the jury returns otherwise, we will likely know why.

It would be nice if the 'message' could reflect the facts, and not hyperbole.

[ronnie624]

70. This isn't a mob.

It's a discussion forum. The concept of a fair trial belongs in a courtroom. Here, we are free to discuss opinions on guilt or innocence if we wish.

[AtheistCrusader]

89. Do you think it's ok to cast vile aspersions upon people who urge caution

when others declare guilt, before the trial has even started?

I don't think it's ok. I'm used to it though. I got shit on for cautioning people not to pre-convict the Duke U. lacrosse players, or Michael Jackson, or even OJ Simpson.

Getting shit on by people just comes with the territory, when you stand on principle I guess.

[ronnie624]

116. No I do not.

In this thread, the other poster was casting his own aspersions on people attempting legitimate discussion. Telling people to stop expressing opinions on a discussion forum because there hasn't been a trial, and calling them a "mob", is just silly. Based on the available facts, it is perfectly logical to consider Zimmerman guilty of murder.

[AtheistCrusader]

125. Is it?

Do you think the language of the OP is consistent with a personal interpretation of Zimmerman being guilty?

I can certainly see someone feeling that way. But the OP goes quite beyond it, to smearing people who don't see things the same way. I think that's a problem.

[ronnie624]

137. Years ago,

I was a security guard in Atlanta, Georgia. The one thing that was stressed to us above all others, is that it was illegal to detain or even confront anyone who was not clearly and actively violating the law, especially if they were on public property. Doing so, would open both the company and yourself to serious legal ramifications. I'm not certain about Florida (and currently I don't have time to look), but I would bet that every state has similar restrictions. This alone, tells me that Zimmerman is, at the very least, guilty of man-slaughter.

[AtheistCrusader]

145. Possibly true.

But I don't know if Zimmerman confronted Trayvon. It does seem likely that a conviction will hinge on this point.

If someone's following me, I know my response would be to face the person following me, and issue some sort of verbal challenge. If Trayvon did so, that wouldn't make him 'at fault' by any means perfectly reasonable thing to do, but depending on how it escalated, might change the form of charge the state can press for, for guilt.

If the state asked for Murder 2, and Zimmerman can't be found guilty in the eyes of the jury of anything more than manslaughter, we're going to see Caylee Anthony MK II unfold in the court, and that is neither justice, nor acceptable by any measure.

[ronnie624]

149. I anxiously await the trial. n/t

[JDPriestly]

273. I am not an apologist for Zimmerman, but how do you know that Zimmerman

detained or confronted Trayvon Martin? I am unaware that we know what happened when they met or why they met. I have been asking people two questions and that is one of them. How did it happen that they met on the pathway when Zimmerman's truck was not that near the pathway? How did it happen that they met at all when Zimmerman reported in his 911 call that Trayvon Martin was running toward the opposite end of the development?

I still don't have answers to that question. I don't think we know yet. It may be that Zimmerman tried to detain or confront Trayvon Martin, but I don't think we have evidence on that.

[LanternWaste]

143. I see an obvious and relevant different between those who urge caution and those who defend

I see an obvious and relevant different between those who urge caution and those who defend Zimmerman with everything but their own direct statements...

[AtheistCrusader]

146. That's the thing, I don't see anyone 'defending', and I don't see anyone like the OP qualifying

that screed with any sort of clarification on what is a 'defense' versus 'caution'.

Can someone link me a post where someone is saying Zimmerman was totally justified and did the right thing?

Without even questioning the shooting, his pursuit of Trayvon was morally hazardous, particularly after the dispatcher told him it was not necessary.

[LanternWaste]

171. Would that it was the only form it takes, but alas no...

"someone is saying Zimmerman was totally justified and did the right thing?"

Would that it was the only form it takes, but alas no-- the defense is hides behind its own words.

If you look with only a modicum of awareness, you will see them rather often. However, if you merely look with your eyes closed, they will not be as apparent...

[AtheistCrusader]

174. If my eyes were closed, I wouldn't be able to read your post, now would I?

Well, there's always text to voice software, but that's obviously not what you are getting at.

And not really a defense of the OP, which seems to be concerned about a specific thing, but casts an awfully wide net.


Innocent until proven guilty is a progressive concept, a principle, and it is worth standing by, even in the distaste of it appearing to lend comfort to someone alleged to have done something as monstrous as what Zimmerman is accused of.

[The Wielding Truth]

147. You are keeping things into perspective. So far it looks bleak for Zimmerman, but we have to let our

judicial system work it out. I have faith that there is evidence to convict Zimmerman.It is so important that Trayvon's death and every other death of this kind be given the scrutiny that it deserves. It says that we have justice for all.

[LaurenG]

25. Ok so here's the scoop

Trayvon was a kid, he could have been yours or mine or anyone elses here if circumstances fit. He went to the store to buy candy and an iced tea, like kids do and while he was out a fucking idiot with a gun killed him. Now there is no arguing that the police dispatcher told Zimmerman to stand DOWN and there is no arguing that he didn't. He is totally responsible for that kids life and should go prison for what he's done.

Trayvon did not seek Zimmerman out in his vehicle, drag him out and beat him but Zimmerman did follow Trayvon and shoot him in cold blood. The rest is up to a jury to decide. There is no way you or anyone else here gets a pass for being an apologist just based on the FACTS above. You really should stay quiet, too many of us now see how you really feel.

[Snake Alchemist]

27. So you agree that a trial is a complete waste of taxpayer dollars?

Also please post where the dispatcher told him to "stand down".

[LaurenG]

30. Have you not heard the dispatchers tape like the rest of the world has?

as far as a trial the ONLY one saying we don't need one is you. Talk about needing to take a look in the mirror. Just a bit of advice, you are now on a lot of peoples radar, maybe just get your facts together before stating an opinion on a well read board. I see who you are now, unfortunately for me.

[Snake Alchemist]

31. I have. And that is not in it.

So I've been put on a verboten list? Wow, just wow.

[LaurenG]

35. Here is a transcript

"Are you following him?" Zimmerman says yes, and the dispatcher replies, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman says "OK" and then dithers for a minute or so about where police should meet him, finally saying they should call him when they arrive, "and I'll tell them where I'm at." The dispatcher agrees, and the recording ends at that point.

So the actual words are we don't need you to do that and he did it anyway. If I told you that would you pursue? Are you one of the elite smarter/better people in the world that do what they want instead of what's right?

[Kingofalldems]

40. But the actual words 'stand down' weren't there

so that makes you wrong. (sarcasm)

[LaurenG]

43. :) nt

[Snake Alchemist]

44. That's quite a forceful command. nt

[LaurenG]

45. Get over yourself. He was told they didn't NEED him to do that

but he didn't care. Maybe because by gawd he's a ninja with superpowers or maybe because he had a gun that made him feel invincible.

[Snake Alchemist]

47. But they did not command him to do anything either way.

And I agree that he should not have followed him, but I'll await the trial which should prove to be fascinating with dueling forensics and witnesses.

[noiretextatique]

101. "we don't need you to do that"

what part of that statement indicated that zimmerman should follow or pursue? the instruction was clear, and this zealot disregarded the instruction.

[CatWoman]

124. but not as forceful as

"Help, or I'll shoot"

[LanternWaste]

144. Not forceful, but certainly not open to interpretation, either.

Not forceful, but certainly not open to interpretation, either.

[HangOnKids]

95. You edited this and you still got it wrong LOL

"So I've been putting on a verboten list?" Have you been putting on a verboten list Snake? Like a pair of shoes or your hat? LOL. That is some funny shit.

[Snake Alchemist]

97. You got me. Swype. Good one? nt

[blm]

64. Yeah, Snake, we KNOW - a sociopath showed years ago he shouldn't be ALLOWED

to even own a gun, WAS allowed to carry and out of his lack of judgement and fearfulness shot an unarmed teen who was doing NOTHING MORE than walking home from the store and talking to his girlfriend on the phone.

Gun rights, my ass. Gun owners who view personal responsibility as part of their right to carry should be PISSED AS HELL that sociopaths like Zimmerman, who feel too fearful and too entitled at the same time, are being made into the standard bearers by the less intelligent members of their group.

[AtheistCrusader]

91. I am pissed.

Zimmerman should not have pursued him. He didn't even have a reason to do so. Travyon isn't even alleged to have done anything wrong, not even so much as stepping on some lawn marked 'keep of the grass'. Not a fucking thing.

But I was not there when the confrontation started, I did not witness it, and I do not know for certain what happened. I will wait for the trial.

While it is true that Trayvon had every right to be there, there is similarly nothing illegal about Zimmerman following and observing him. Zimmerman shouldn't have done it, I would say it was morally wrong, but it isn't illegal.

How the confrontation started, the trial will likely tell the tale. I can wait for that before I 'declare' Zimmerman guilty of XYZ.

[RZM]

109. There it is

I just don't feel I have enough information to say what happened or whether or not I would find Zimmerman guilty of a crime were I on the jury. I certainly think he exercised poor judgment in following the kid. But I can't yet say for sure whether or not he is guilty of the charges against him.

Based on my limited knowledge of the law and the facts in the case, I think it's going to be difficult for the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed second degree murder.

But it all depends on the evidence. Could very well be it's solid enough to sway me or get a conviction. The point is, nobody knows yet. There are huge holes in the story that will hopefully be filled in at trial. Some of the evidence we have is unclear, while other pieces of evidence conflict with one another.

I think part of what's going on here is that the real world moves a lot slower than the media and an internet message board. New evidence in the case comes to light slowly, but the media and DU grind on 24-7. People have been talking and thinking about this so much for the last two months, that many minds are now made up. But back in the real world, the process is just getting started.

[blm]

132. I said even if you GAVE Zimmerman the punch to the face he's still an irresponsible gun owner

for not taking the punch and responding in kind. That was the worst that happened and gun owners get to shoot to kill whoever throws a punch at them??? Geezus...what comes next for a country populated by entitled yet frightened men who can get away with shooting anyone they THINK is deserving of their suspicion?

[AtheistCrusader]

153. I think I asked you this upthread but

Do you not see how that fact might abrogate the state's ability to meet the bar required to prove murder in the second degree, if he DID throw a punch? or 2? Or 10? Or any physical contact at all?

It doesn't mean that Trayvon was in the wrong, if that happened, but it might torpedo a murder 2 charge, where a manslaughter charge would have stuck.

[JDPriestly]

274. But the fact that, knowing he had a gun, Zimmerman decided to follow Trayvon Martin

(if that proves to be the case and it looks like it probably will), that could be enough disregard for human life to satisfy a 2nd degree homicide. Apparently the prosecutor thinks so, and she knows more than we do.

We shall see. It is intriguing to try to figure it out. But as you say there are holes in the evidence.

[Vattel]

185. Stop being rational and jump on the Zimmerman-is-clearly-a-murderer bandwagon!

[blm]

250. What he is clearly: an irresponsible gun owner with mental problems

who never should have been able to own a gun, especially after he racked up a record of assaulting a police officer and stalking two of his ex-girlfriends, but, he got off the hook on those charges, too, because daddies of privilege can do that for their entitled, sociopathic offspring.

[blm]

126. Sorry, but, I have no sympathy for a guy who feels he needs to use a gun against an unarmed teen who

may have taken a punch at the adult stranger who was following him. Fer chrissakes - if a man can't pass the take a punch in the face from a scared kid test, he shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun. How many people would be dead in this country for 'just cause' because they got into a fight at a bar or at a sporting event and punches were thrown?

No responsible gun owner believes you have the right to shoot someone dead for throwing a punch. Zimmerman had the lethal combination of feeling entitled AND being a fearful scaredy-cat at the same time. Bad combo for carrying a gun - no way was he acting responsibly whether he took a punch from a scared kid or not.

Those waiting to hear more in court, are basically full of shit, imo, because they already know an armed adult shot an unarmed kid and the worst that COULD have happened before the gun was drawn and used is that a punch was thrown. Wow - big man and responsible gun owner, eh?

[AtheistCrusader]

127. I have no qualms with your interpretation.

But can you accept that some of us will not make that sort of statement until a Jury finds your interpretation to be what happened, based on the facts?

[blm]

130. Wow - a scared kid being followed IS what happened. No MAN or gun owner with the

responsible attitude towards the gun and its power would have shot a kid even if the kid did take a swing.

Some of you have invested yourselves in standing with an irresponsible gun user and now try to use the court as your security blanket. No matter how it turns out in court, Zimmerman acted like a person entitled to judge others and sentence them to death immediately when the worst thing that teen did that night was try and defend himself from an armed stranger.

[AtheistCrusader]

150. So you were there?

You seem to be ok that Trayvon threw a punch? I don't even know that. Maybe he threw none.

Do you not understand how every little detail like this shifts the potential crime, punishment, and the burden of the state to prove to a particular level of confidence to the jury that certain things occurred?

Do you not understand how a defense attorney will use, if a punch was thrown, that fact in Zimmerman's favor? You seem to dismiss a punch as a credible threat under Florida's acceptable self defense statutes. You realize that fists and feet rank significantly high on the FBI's Unified Crime Report as murder weapons, right?

Do you not see how this spreading assumption of guilt, and disregard for the judicial process actually hurts the Martin family's quest for justice? That a juror could potentially be shown to have read these sorts of online commentary pre-trial?

At the end of the day, I tend to agree with you, BUT I was not there, so I cannot know for certain, and I will leave it at that, and wait for the process to do its thing. If the facts at trial do not match the verdict, THEN I will start to form my own certain judgment, not before.

[obamanut2012]

204. I would be okay if he beat the shit ut of Zimmerman

Trayvon also had a right to Stand His Ground. Especially against an armed cop wannabee with an agenda.

[AtheistCrusader]

215. That's not how the law is written.

"He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; "

A capable defense attorney is going to present that statute, along with any evidence or testimony that Trayvon swung at him, and show the jury the FBI UCR showing the number of people beaten to death every year, to plant that seed of reasonable doubt.

He doesn't have to whip Zimmerman for him to be cleared under that statute. And it's not even part of SYG. My state has similar wording, and we don't have SYG at all.


I agree, from the publicly available facts, Trayvon had the right to stand HIS ground. But that moment of physical contact, and who it was initiated by, is what is going to drive the jury's decision.

[JonLP24]

238. Here it is - fully

2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

The section you quoted is for the deadly force, for use of fists, Martin needs to reasonably believe there is imminent use of unlawful force.

[AtheistCrusader]

241. True.

And if the defense can show evidence that suggests aggravated battery, Zimmerman walks. (AB is a felony in Florida)

This is where there will need to be intense scrutiny of the police investigation, and what injuries to Zimmerman were recorded. I don't see any in the video of him at the station, being questioned. But the police will testify, any medical personnel that treated him will testify, etc.

This is almost 100% for certain the tack the defense will choose to pursue. The jury will be allowed very little grey area to 'interpret' the evidence.


I hope the police did their jobs properly. If they did, this avenue might not work. If they half-assed it, it falls in Zimmerman's favor.

[obamanut2012]

253. That is how it's written

Trayvon Martin was, under Florida law, justified in standing his ground and hitting someone who was pursuing him, via both vehicle and then on foot. Eben though I am not sold that Trayvon ever "attacked" Zimmerman.

[AtheistCrusader]

259. Oh, much more nuanced than that.

But I agree, I don't know that Trayvon ever hit Zimmerman AT ALL. Again, I will wait for the facts presented at trial.

But lets say Zimmerman was following him to return his wallet, which he had dropped. Would Trayvon have been justified in hitting him then?

Just being followed isn't, in my understanding of any legal definition, justification to hit someone. Followed in various 'menacing' fashions, possibly.

Again, I don't know that Trayvon did, but we can already see the defense will be claiming he did. Or, it will be weird/telling if they don't, in the courtroom, after what Zimmerman has stated to the police.

[noiretextatique]

196. +1000 apparently, young black males cannot be afraid of creepy white men with guns

and should submit to the racist suspicions of white men with guns.

[AtheistCrusader]

198. Can you point to someone in this thread suggesting such a foul thing?

[noiretextatique]

207. yes, read the thread eom

[AtheistCrusader]

216. So, you can't. Ok.

[noiretextatique]

268. do your own work eom

[AtheistCrusader]

278. Clearly you don't understand, the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.

Especially since the claim is subjective, specifically, to your interpretation apparently.

[U4ikLefty]

280. I'm sure you apply this standard in all situations.

[AtheistCrusader]

282. I do.

I mentioned a few examples in this thread. Quite unpopular ones at the time. I'm used to it.

It's not an easy position.

[U4ikLefty]

284. so noble

[The Magistrate]

286. On This Like White On Rice, Sir, These Selfless, Noble Types....

[AtheistCrusader]

287. Oh, you can't possibly do worse than the people who accused me of being a friend to

child molesters for urging caution about pre-judging the verdict in the Michael Jackson trial.

You're welcome to try though, if you think you are up to it.

[U4ikLefty]

290. and courageous

[Oilwellian]

170. But we do know how the confrontation started

Trayvon: "Why are you following me?"
George: "What are you doing here?"

The next time Trayvon's voice was heard was on the 911 audio where he begged for help for at least 40 seconds, right up until the gunshot was heard. What do you suppose George was doing for the entire 40 seconds Trayvon was crying for help?

When the confrontation began, Trayvon was on the defensive, right up to the time George pulled the trigger.

[AtheistCrusader]

172. Doesn't answer an enormous number of questions

such as how the confrontation moved from verbal to physical. Who initiated that changeover.

This is going to be critical to the state proving a murder 2 charge.

[blm]

177. If a gun owner can't take even a punch in the face from a teen without drawing his gun and shooting

in response to that, he doesn't have the judgment or temperament to BE a gun owner allowed to carry.

That should be crystal clear to responsible gun owners who respect the power they hold in their hands every time they put it in their hands.

[AtheistCrusader]

178. Your attitude would make any defense attorney smile.

As I have explained in detail to you below.

[blm]

179. I don't give a shot what you have to say - I'm on a message forum where we post what WE think

and I think you are an apologist for an IRRESPONSIBLE gun owner.

[AtheistCrusader]

183. Can you point to a post where I say what he did was legal or moral?

You'll be looking for a long time, just to warn you, not that you would actually try it.

[leftynyc]

94. And who said that?

You sure do like putting words into other's mouths. You argue like a right winger.

[LanternWaste]

139. that being the only inference you are able to make from the OP says quite a bit more about you than

I imagine that being the only inference you are able to make from the OP says quite a bit more about you than the OP...

[Skittles]

182. initially there was apparently NO NEED FOR AN ARREST!!!!

[AtheistCrusader]

200. Investigating officer submitted a formal recommendation of charges to the DA.

So, the Police did feel there was a need for an arrest. They did detain Zimmerman.

Why the DA said 'no', is a big question.

[morningfog]

272. Where has anyone suggested that?

[The Magistrate]

275. It Emerges, Ma'am, From That Miasma Of The White Right's Mind In Which Blacks Are A Privileged Class

And a white man just ain't got nuthin' in the world these days....

[TBF]

11. Personally I believe the NRA has a lot to do with what is being posted on line the last few

weeks - whether they are actively paying posters or influencing through their organization (or as I suspect both). This is much more about Stand Your Ground than Trayvon for many people.

[madokie]

26. Sure the nra has some influence

Its human nature to defend something that you're a part of.

I personally don't agree with anything the nra stands for so I'm not a member. I don't care if someone else owns a gun or a truckload of guns as long as they keep them secured and when they do handle one they do it with the respect that a gun demands. One accidental discharge can and does kill everyone from the baby in the cradle to the person who is handling it and even the person they love the most or total strangers. Guns are dangerous and should be handled with that in mind by all who handles one. IMO
I'm not a gun owner btw

[TBF]

36. I don't buy the "it's human nature" crap -

handguns are big business and the NRA is funded by someone who is making a profit.

[madokie]

41. Whatever

I agree that the nra is a profit making machine but thats all I agree with you on

[TBF]

72. That's fine

it's good to know which side everyone is on.

[freshwest]

208. +1

[madokie]

14. Right on Cat

It pains my arse to come here and see all the post defending the murderer. Zimmerman murdered the kid in cold blood and no amount of hand wringing will change that. He is a murderer and should be locked up from now until his blood no longer circulates in his body

[LynneSin]

21. I appreciate that there are DUers here that enjoy gun ownership and want to protect...

their 2nd amendment rights.

But George Zimmerman is not the poster boy for this cause. If these DUers want the respect from those of us who aren't into guns you need to let this one go. This case has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment, Zimmerman isn't the shining example of a man 'defending his space'. Anyone who supports all these new gun laws like 'Stand Your Ground' would be better off just letting this case go and stop defending him. Anyone who defends him looks like a loser - that's for sure!

[madokie]

29. I totally agree with you

I'll go to the line that is in support of ones second amendment rights even though I personally don't like to be around guns. Its kind of like fishing, you can't catch any if you don't go, same with guns you can't be accidentally killed by one if you're not around them. I like life whether it be mine or someone or something else's.

[obamanut2012]

67. We DUers who own guns aren't the ones defending him

Unless its posters who have emerged from the Gungeon. I myself and many other gun owners and CCW holders have condemned Zimmerman.

This murder isn't about gun rights, it's about a racist cop wannabe and a racist, corrupt police department.

[AtheistCrusader]

92. And what, exactly, about the 'gungeon' are you suggesting?

[KansDem]

151. I believe obamanut2012 was referring to this--

Last edited Mon Apr 23, 2012, 03:02 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1172

[AtheistCrusader]

154. Yes, I know what the Gungeon is.

Long time poster. Very long time actually.

I would take issue with the apparent context of the characterization of it's contents though. I say apparent, because it's not too clear, and clarification would be nice.

[obamanut2012]

203. I am suggesting what I am suggesting

As an owner of several firearms, and as a holder of a CCW permit, I find many who post in that forum very different from the gun owners I know IRL. There is no monolithic "we" of gun owners on DU.

That is what I am suggesting.

[AtheistCrusader]

205. Fair enough.

Sounded like something very different at first blush, so I'll apologize for that.

[Lost-in-FL]

162. And cowards chasing 'kids' that look suspicious. nt

[freshwest]

188. +1

[Recursion]

32. I fail to see how this was "in cold blood"

Which is why the indictment is for 2nd degree murder

[madokie]

38. Whatever you think

you stand on that, Personally I see it as cold blood murder and I'll stand by that. If the murderer hadn't pursued the innocent kid no one would be dead today. He was advised to stop yet he chose to continue. Plenty in this story makes me believe this is cold blooded murder. the reason for the charge whenever a charge is made is the prosecutor is pretty sure they can get a conviction on that charge. For whatever reason, SYG I suspect, they chose the lessor charge and thats their prerogative

[Recursion]

53. Maybe we're meaning different things "in cold blood" has a specific legal meaning

and I simply don't see how it can apply here.

[LynneSin]

17. Stand Your Ground Laws = Legalized Human Hunting

Nuff said!

[AtheistCrusader]

93. Not really.

I would call both the subject, and the body, incorrect.

[Skittles]

271. Trayvon's family wouldn't

[AtheistCrusader]

281. Care to back that up?

His mother and father made no such claims before the House at a congressional panel. It was supposed to be on the agenda, but the family spoke primarily about racial profiling, and the police response/investigation.

As many of us have stated, the SYG law did not actually preclude Zimmerman's arrest on the night of the shooting. One man, the state AG, Wolfinger, stood between Zimmerman, and filed charges that night.

I believe there was ample evidence to abrogate a SYG defense, the night of, and the investigating officers agreed, and recommended he be arrested and charged for, minimum, manslaughter. They did not believe Zimmerman, and they formally requested charges.

He wasn't charged, and Wolfinger will have to answer for that at some point, I believe.

Anyway, story link to the House statements by mother and father:
http://www.wpxi.com/news/ap/crime/trayvon-martins-parents-go-to-capitol-hill/nLdjM/

[The Magistrate]

33. True Enough, Ma'am

[enki23]

37. No shit.

Disgusting.

[CatWoman]

49. Hi Enk

[Bruce Wayne]

39. OP is spoiling for a fight... and she's standing her ground!

Are there really Zimmerman "apologists" on DU? Really? *shrug*

On edit:
Before dismissing DU as "riddled with Zimmerman apologists", try this experiment: Put the one or two posters who express actual support for "stand your ground" laws or who support the type of racial profiling that Zimmerman did. Put those one or two poster on ignore. See if that actually removes any sense of there being a "group" of DUers who demonstrate genuine sympathy for the shooter's position.

Minor caveat:
Do not include in this group, by the way, DUers who support the rule of law with comments like "innocent till proven guilty" or "let's let the legal system handle this before concluding the system doesn't work." That's just plain old Americanism and no one should be castigated for supporting the rule of law. I would also not want to dismiss DUers who express a genuine fear of crime. Lawlessness (as Zimmerman himself demonstrates) is a serious problem in our society and expressing concern about one's property rights should not be construed as condoning the blind vigilantism of a few gun nuts.

[pinboy3niner]

42. Some have been PPRoni'd

Like this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002598597

[Bruce Wayne]

46. Help a poor billionaire and define "PPR" for me

PPRoni is only funny if you know what PPR is. Sadly, I'm too busy running Wayne Tech and the benevolent Wayne Foundation, as well as maintaining an active night life, to keep up on all the latest DU acronyms. Please enlighten me.

[pinboy3niner]

48. PPR = Posting Privileges Revoked

It's the new tombstone.

[CatWoman]

51. thank God!!

[fascisthunter]

68. oh schucks

[CatWoman]

50. It appears to me "you" are the one spoiling for a fight

I just posted my well found observations.

[Bruce Wayne]

54. Tooshay, my arch-nemisis!

Except I don't think people get to call their own observations "well found". It's like calling yourself "devil-may-care." It might be true, but calling yourself that kind of ruins the whole effect.

[CatWoman]

59. "Help me or I'll shoot"

[shimonitanegi]

52. I completely understand your feeling

Some people are blaming the victim as long as the victim isn't their family member or friend. I think they simply believe the victim has no rights.

[DonCoquixote]

55. Nope, but

Down here in Central Florida, all the crazies are out cheering. If people think this is not a dog whistle, they are mistaken; if they really need proof, see how Tampa Mayor Bob Buckhorn is being pilloried because he dared ask the Governor to ban real guns as well as squirt guns. These people want to be armed because they want to intimidate people, especially minorities, who are crucial to the Florida election. The Good ol Boys got mad when Florida became a Blue State in 2008, and between "Stand your Ground" and the voting "reform", they want us to be put in our place this year (in other words, the slave kennels and barrios.)

[trumad]

56. I'm with you 100 percent---

The phonies here on DU defending this murderer... ohhhh if the shot was fired upward----oh.... he wasn't 100 pounds heavier---ohhhhh---ohhhhh---ohhhhhh....

They can all go to hell.....

[CatWoman]

60. word, Tru

[ecstatic]

61. It's as if a part of them is saying, "There but for the grace of

God, go I..." They put themselves in Z's shoes, which is sad. They should be putting themselves in Trayvon's parents' shoes.

[WI_DEM]

62. Damn straight!!!

[TomClash]

73. I don't agree with what he did

I think he is probably guilty of manslaughter. Yet, I don't have access to all the facts and neither does anyone else posting on the internet.

I also believe in inalienable rights. I don't believe in mob justice and the police state. I don't believe in conviction by internet message board, guilt by Twitter and sentencing by Facebook vote.

It is cases like Zimmerman's where universal human rights are tested. Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his or her rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him or her.

Some people would do well to remember the aphorism: be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

[stupidicus]

74. This is as an unsurprising condition, as it is poorly understood

by those who hold the pov you're criticizing here.

As I've already noted elsewhere in other posts on this issue, as I see it the proximate cause for their apathy for the victim, and the povs that give that apathy life , largely have their origins in prioritization, and given the 2nd Amendment right issues involved here, it's reasonable to assume they are the ones recieving the priority treatment and serve as the proximate cause for the apathy.

What's missing imo, and what needs to be understood to break the apathy, is the libertarian (at least civil vein) element represented in the "Wild West" mentality that underlies their povs on the 2nd Amendment, and their aversion to the idea that the modern gov or private orgs can serve the role of Wyatt Earp and ask kooks like Zimmerman to leave their weapons at his office http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-24/news/os-trayvon-martin-neighborhood-watch-20120321_1_zimmerman-community-ties-neighborhood-watch -- analogous to the rule Zimmerman was in violation of as a NW person -- so as to avoid their misuse like in this case. The simple fact of the matter is, Zimmerman was to much the sissy to be in that position without one.

What it boils down to is this -- there's nary an issue supported by those of this ilk that doesn't ignore abuses that can come just as easily from the individual as it can from the gov, as was the case here. AWK AWK, STATIST STATIST the unfettered 2nd Amendment rights advocates whine, while completely ignoring that this is part of the role of governemnt -- to protect us from each other, and to provide justice we'd otherwise have great difficulties in finding on our own, short of an "eye for an eye" rule prevailing as the provider of it -- while also ignoring the inarguable and eternal existence of bad actors amongst us that is behind giving the gov that role. One needn't look past say, a Ron Paul's pov on the Civil Rights Act to see this, or the the rightwingnuts whining generally about EPA rules, to see the competition between the individual and the society in which they and we are all immersed in and dependent on. In the latter case here, the threat is similarly to their private/individual property "rights" and the ability to do whatever they damn well please with it, the wider society be damned. This is behind ALL the rightwingnut objections the efforts to curtail global warming, etc, enviromental issues. http://www.monbiot.com/2012/01/06/why-libertarians-must-deny-climate-change/

Of course a balance needs to be struck between the two competing interests here -- that of the individual in a free society and the interest of that society in protecting the individual from the bad actors, whether an individual or a collective like corporations -- and that is problem here, the way the "stand your ground" laws has put these competing interest on this issue in a state of imbalance, tilted towards/favoring the bad actors. The Tombstone they imagine and desire was killed by a simple city ordinance, and obviously to them, a few tombstones resting over even innocent corpses is not too high a price to pay to keep their "rugged individualism" at the root of such, alive and well.

Some ask "what if Zimmerman was black, and his victim white?". I'd like to ask the apathetic, 2nd amendment worshippers, "What if Zimmerman was a black police officer and Martin was white, with the former acting under the color of law?" Oh that's right, first his gun would have been taken away, and we'd be hearing whines about how it's alright and reasonable to be protecting us against potential bad actors in the gov in that way. Their blind priorities has blinded them to the concept of proportionality http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=zimmerman%20military%20engagement%20rules&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDMQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthinkprogress.org%2Fjustice%2F2012%2F04%2F10%2F460965%2Fzimmerman-shoot-kill-troops-military%2F&ei=OGmVT9SKEMG-gAf4_diFBQ&usg=AFQjCNGbHCI7jUI3UclKoeLDUXK5ocq6Dw that I had thought upon first hearing of this case, would be the death knell to any defense he might have. http://www.bushipower.com/sd_law.php

Their apathy stems for their desire to be able to do as Zimmerman did, putting them in the "Cow-Boys" camp, not that of a wouldbe do-gooder like Wyatt Earp. This of course can only stem from their awareness of the private wouldbe bad actors they want protection from, even at the expense of the production of private bad actors like Zimmerman these "stand your ground" encourage and enable. It's really worse imo than mere apathy, it's an unspoken desire on their part to be able to take a human life under circumstances where it's neither necessary nor morally justifiable.

It's now legally justifiable in some cases, and that's what they want to preserve, along with the 2nd amendment rights that the exploitation of make it easiest to assert that legal right..

[hfojvt]

75. let's not, and say we did

"there ain't no good guys
there ain't no bad guys
there's only you and me
and we just disagree"

Why can't people disagree here without seeming to fall in to a dualism of

good guys agree with me, and bad guys disagree with me?

And further, why put straw man arguments into people's mouths so you can paint them as bad guys?

If you want to know what somebody thinks, it is better to just ask than try to read their mind.

What I think is that it is possible that Zimmerman is a decent guy. Not a saint, but also not a demon. "Mostly harmless" as it were. I don't know anything about "ever changing stories". I think it is possible that his version is accurate even if he cannot remember every detail. In his version of events, he shot the unarmed teenager, not because the kid was black and in his neighborhood, but because the kid was on top of him pounding on him while he yelled for help.

Lots of people assume it didn't happen that way, and they may turn out to be correct, but I have not seen the proof. Nor do I think that being followed gives you the right to pummell the person following you.

As for birdwatching. My mom does that, I don't. And my weapon of choice, true to my Irish roots, is the shillelagh, although I have carried pepper spray too. Fortunately, I have never had to use either, except once when a rottweiler came charging down a driveway and started mixing it up with my little beagle. The shillelagh was remarkably ineffective. Turns out rottweilers have very hard heads.

[saras]

76. What a load of shit. Zimmerman has a POLICE record as an aggresive thug

There was an INNOCENT - Trayvon Williams, who went to the store to get some junk food. No one has offered any kind of evidence whatsoever that anything else was even a reasonable interpretation.

There was a violent thug with a record, who accosted and murdered this innocent. These facts can't be changed by the trial. In the worst possible case (i.e.white racism trumps everything else), they will be set aside by the court.

What remains to be discovered are the exact details - in particular, how much police involvement there was.

So no, there's no question but that Zimmerman committed some sort of crime by shooting an innocent without justification, but there is still some small debate as to the nature of the crime.

Anyone who thinks Zimmerman, based on his past record, is a "decent guy" is someone that I would follow around MY neighborhood with a gun until they left.

[hfojvt]

84. "I suppose

rock's out of the question?"

Rock, in this case, being a rational discussion.

How about a song?

[noiretextatique]

112. not with you: you believe the implausible" zimmerman's version of events

frankly, there is nothing rational about zimmerman's story, unless you believe he was "afraid" of a teenager armed with deadly skittles.

[hfojvt]

222. it seems to me

that if I was on my back and somebody was punching me in the face, that I would be afraid, even if the person punching me was only armed with a bag of skittles.

I would consider a story implausible if it said something like this

"He was hitting me in the face, and I fired a warning shot and it must have gone up in the air, come down and hit him in the back."

I did not say what I believed. I said a version where Trayvon hits Zimmerman, knocks him down and then jumps on him an starts pounding on him is possible. It's possible that Trayvon was yelling for help, but it is also possible that Zimmerman was yelling for help. I'm not locked in to one version.

[LanternWaste]

148. Not so much reading minds as it is reading obvious tells.

"it is better to just ask than try to read their mind..."

Not so much reading minds as it is reading obvious tells; e.g., calling someone who assaulted a girlfriend or a law enforcement agent a "decent guy" or "mostly harmless".

[hfojvt]

211. otherwise known as

"reading between the lines"

"Assaulted a law enforcement agent"

Yeah, sure, was that incident ever described?

Assaulted a girlfriend?

Again, was that incident ever described?

If I had more details, I might change my opinion of him, but mere charges mean nothing (unless no charges are made which are ever false or exxagerated).

Good grief, I said IF. I'm doomed.

[JonLP24]

244. Yes

In 2005, Zimmerman, then 20, was arrested and charged with “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer,” both which are third-degree felonies. The charge was reduced to “resisting officer without violence” and then waived when he entered an alcohol education program. Contemporaneous accounts indicate he shoved an officer who was questioning a friend for alleged underage drinking at an Orange County bar.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer

[hfojvt]

292. that's not much of a description

without any context it is fairly empty. So he "shoved". Do we know he wasn't shoved first? Do we know how much force was in the "shove". I don't consider one "shove" to define somebody as a violent thug. In the movie Star Trek IV, the female lead gets mad at her boss, calls him an SOB and slaps him. Is she a violent thug? In the book "Harry Potter and the prisoner of Azhkaban" Malfoy is gloating about the death of Beaky and Hermione slaps him (in the movie she punches him). In either case, is Hermione a violent thug? In the Star Trek original series, Scotty punches a Klingon who called the Enterprise a "garbage scow". Does that make Scotty a violent thug?

In my world view even decent people can be provoked, even decent people can lose their tempers, or get drunk, or have a bad day, and they are still decent. Not perfect, but decent, and not demons or even violent thugs.

[JonLP24]

297. Ridiculous

I never seen any of those movies and it's clear you're desperate to pain Zimmerman as a great guy when TM deserved what he got because he can run fast. If Trayvon did this, you would be all over him.The incident was fully described once here on DU but I can't find it. It was a statement by a witness that I'm recalling correctly also said what is described in this link.

http://patdollard.com/2012/03/alleged-ex-co-worker-george-zimmerman-lost-job-as-party-security-guard-for-being-too-aggressive/

Again, just a witness.

[newrocker]

77. I think this is the most illiberal thread I've seen.

Your OP in a nutshell:

Unless I've decided whether Zimmerman is guilty, you've decided I'm glad Trayvon Martin is dead.

Since neither you nor I have heard the evidence yet, I think you're defining a fascist state and a fascist judicial system.

Amazing, CatWoman. I hope you'll never be on a jury evaluating someone's innocence or guilt.

[The Magistrate]

82. Only If Your Definition Of Liberal, Sir, Is 'A Man Who Won't Even take His Own Side In A Quarrel."

[paulk]

83. leave "liberal" out of it

it gives you away

[HangOnKids]

99. What Grace What Style What Class

You drop illiberal and go straight to fascist. That is a brand new kind of fail sauce right there. Well done.

[Lost-in-FL]

169. But she is not a juror but a citizen like many others that are...

Watching the trail of lies coming from Zimmerman, his family and his friends. Their statements happen to crash with the bits of evidence that has been made public by the police and which continue to raise many questions against Zimmerman.

Yes it has already been proven that he said 'punks' and not 'coons'... however, this does not take away from his exaggerated number of calls to 911 in which every suspect is a minority.

Gun rights aside, things point to Zimmerman being a 'chicken little' with a concealed weapon in hand with a problem with non-whites and too dumb or emotional to follow basic gun ownership.

Ironically, it seems as you are becoming too emotional or desperate based on your use of Facism (read Godwin's Law). One thing is to hear the evidence and ignore it and the other picking and choosing which evidence appears to you to be acceptable. From everything that has been released to the public, so far, nothing shows a redeeming bit for Zimmerman.

[loudsue]

78. I've yet to see only one apologist, and he/she is on every thread,

causing every sane person's hair to catch fire. I say everyone should put said idiot on ignore, and be done with it.

[The Magistrate]

81. Would You Be Referring To This Fella, Ma'am?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002598809#post85

He seems guilty of mopery with intent to loiter, at a minimum....

[loudsue]

108. I would be, Sir...

One and the same.

[The Magistrate]

115. Thought You Might, Ma'am: Been Having a Bit Of Low Sport With Him This Morning....

[Snake Alchemist]

206. You got that link yet? Been about half a working day.

I'll be glad to read it over. I am just asking for one single supporting link.

[The Magistrate]

214. Damn, Sydney: You Are A Glutton For Punishment

Still, you can make your ridiculous display wherever you like: no one will stop you making a fool of yourself to the limits of your energies and abilities.

[Snake Alchemist]

218. Somehow I didn't think that you would have it. TTFN. nt

[The Magistrate]

221. Amazing: People Looking For Laughs Should Follow The Link In My 115 Above

There you will see perhaps the lamest series of posts ever made on this forum, courtesy of this S. A. fella....

[Snake Alchemist]

226. I encourage them to follow it too. Thanks! nt

[The Magistrate]

230. As Observed, Kherido, You Are a Glutton For Punishment

[Snake Alchemist]

231. Whatever you say. Anyone ever tell you that you remind them of Bert Lahr? nt

[The Magistrate]

234. Fewer Than Have Suggested You Resemble Peter Lorre, Son....

"What! No Anchovies? You've got the wrong man. I spell my name Danger!"

[Snake Alchemist]

235. Doubtful. Both were great though. nt

[The Magistrate]

236. And You are Not, So There Is Not Really Any Comparison, Sweetie

[Snake Alchemist]

239. I think its great that you think I am sweet, but I am a very happily married man. nt

[The Magistrate]

252. That Is Not What Your Wife Says, Honey

[Son of Gob]

258. ...

[Snake Alchemist]

260. Do tell? nt

[obamanut2012]

254. +1

[dixiegrrrrl]

159. I hae not heard that phrase for ages..love it!

The one I heard was "mopery with internt to creep"..LOL!!!
from a lawyer, of course...

[Cleita]

86. Right on, CW.

[Kablooie]

88. If Zimmerman had never confronted Trayvon no crime would have been committed by either.

The boy was killed so it follows that one of the two committed a crime.

Either Zimmerman is convicted because he committed murder or he goes free which means the killing was justified because Trayvon had committed the crime of aggression.

Zimmerman confronting Trayvon was an aggressive act and instigated the whole incident so how can the boy be blamed?

[4th law of robotics]

96. I've been chastized for saying we should give him a fair trial and wait for all the facts

to come out.

Is that what you mean by Zimmerman apologist?

/I guess by that reasoning anyone who wants a fair trial for people held at gitmo is a terrorist apologist.

[AtheistCrusader]

100. +1

[noiretextatique]

102. i an more interested in justice for Tayvon Martin and his family

and given how the police bungled the investigation, it seems zimmerman will have a more than fair trail. the question is: can the Martin family get the justice they deserve?

[4th law of robotics]

104. I don't think anyone is getting justice by trying Zimmerman in the media

rather than the court and relying on emotions rather than facts.

Justice is doled out by the court based on the laws. Not by individuals seeking revenge.

I have no idea if he's guilty. Given the evidence I've seen, probably. BUT . . . that evidence is always presented in a highly emotional manner designed to increase ratings. So I will refrain from passing judgement or seeking personal "justice" for the time being.

[fascisthunter]

110. oh please.... as if what we say has anything to do with the results of this case

[4th law of robotics]

113. Ever heard of a tainted Jury pool?

A juror who has heard 24/7 that the person on trial is guilty is going to be less ideal than one who goes in with no prior-information/opinions.

[fascisthunter]

114. really.. good, I hope Zimmerman goes to jail

how ya like them apples?

[4th law of robotics]

117. As a private citizen I don't care what you think

as a perspective juror? I don't "like them apples" at all.

A big step forward for society was the concept that people should be found guilty or innocent based on a dispassionate examination of the facts rather than throwing the accused to the angry mob.

That was a huge advancement for our species and took root very slowly and only after a lot of bitter fighting.

I feel we shouldn't give that up so casually.

[fascisthunter]

119. then you don't need to worry about what we here say, do you?

and please, spare me the kumbya species survival bs.

[4th law of robotics]

123. Sigh

the jury hasn't been selected yet and . . . you know what, it doesn't really matter does it?

You just discarded the entire concept of a fair trial as "kumbya bs". You don't want a trial, you want a lynching.

I think that will have to remain an irreparable difference between us.

[The Magistrate]

118. And There Are Plenty Of Venues Where Zimmerman Is Being Praised As A Hero And Defender Of Right, Sir

So what is your point?

[4th law of robotics]

121. That neither of those preconceived notions have any place in a court of law?

This really isn't rocket science. I'm not sure why I have to keep repeating it.

And balancing preconceived hatred by some with preconceived adoration by others =/= neutral. This isn't a math class where a positive integer cancels out a negative integer of the same value.

[The Magistrate]

129. And This Is A Court Of Law, Sir?

You call your own judgement into question by the pretense.

If there is to be tainting, it had better come from both sides.

You are, of course, all over the various rightist and gun-rights and racist forums denouncing their pre-judgement of the case....

[4th law of robotics]

131. "If there is to be tainting, it had better come from both sides"

Yes, the solution to juror tainting is . . . more tainting.

Likewise if the south side of your house catches on fire the solution is to start an even bigger fire on the north side.

You are, of course, all over the various rightist and gun-rights and racist forums denouncing their pre-judgement of the case....

Are you positioning DU as the leftwing version of those sites?

Anyway you are clearly needed elsewhere. To the twitter machine! http://twitchy.com/2012/04/23/twitter-lynch-mob-now-that-george-zimmerman-is-out-on-bail-lets-kill-him/

[The Magistrate]

135. So You Are Only Taking Your Act To Left Sites, Then, Fella?

[joeglow3]

141. I am

I don't go to the wacko sites and, even if I did, I believe reason is beyond the scope of the average poster there. I do, however, post on DU and am surprised at how quickly people sell out basic convictions to their basic animal instincts. I post what I do here regarding the lynch mob mentality because I truly believe the people here are better than those on the right and can understand rational thoughts. As was so astutely pointed out above, MANY people here sound EXACTLY LIKE those on the right when discussing the prisoners in Gitmo. Sadly, they are so blinded by the mob mentality and getting revenge that they cannot see they have become that which we all despise (rightly so).

[The Magistrate]

142. Animal Instincts AND Mob Mentality? Say It Ain't So, Joe, Say It Ain't So....

[joeglow3]

161. You can add maturity level of some, as well.

[The Magistrate]

219. You Head On Down Here And Spread Sweet Reason And Maturity, Joe: Be Sure And Bring Gum....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1172

[joeglow3]

220. Same logic my 3 & 6 year old children use

"But daaaaad. He did it FIRST."

[The Magistrate]

223. Perhaps You Should Learn From Them, Fella: If They Actually Do Use Logic, You Might Pick Up How To

[joeglow3]

227. My convictions are not based on the actions of others

We will just have to agree to disagree.

[The Magistrate]

228. Any Of Them Felonies, Joe? Always Nice To Meet a Fella With Convictions

And by the way, if you are standing on principle, get off the poor thing and stand on the floor....

[AtheistCrusader]

156. Most foul.

"If there is to be tainting, it had better come from both sides."

I guess this is where I should say 'at least you are being honest'?

[The Magistrate]

217. No, Sir, It Is Where You Should Acknowledge No One Gives A Damn What You Think Of Them

[AtheistCrusader]

225. No worries.

It remains for everyone else to see.

[frylock]

186. ask casey anthony about that

[LanternWaste]

152. Hence, all of our opinions and discussions (including, but not limited to yours and mine), are merel

"Justice is doled out by the court based on the laws..."

Hence, all of our opinions and discussions (including, but not limited to yours and mine), are merely that-- opinions and discussions. And as for me, if I waited to discuss a thing or have an opinion about a thing until I possessed absolute knowledge, I'd have zero opinions or discussions.

Our opinions and our discussions will have zero effect on the eventual verdict. However, if you believe he is being tried, and found innocent or guilty by the media, you may want to brush up on your middle school civics courses so as to better understand that only a court of law may do that (unless of course, you were simply being overly dramatic to better appear to have a valid point)

Additionally, I'm not too sure anyone is seeking "personal justice"-- you appear to conflate that with, well... opinions and discussions...

[noiretextatique]

189. justus system

is not always the place for justice. i suspect the Martin family will have to file a civil suit. which "media" are you referring to? because i am certain faux news and rw hate radio are pushing zimmerman's lies.

[AtheistCrusader]

155. Did the police bungle it?

If you recall, the lead investigator recommended, in writing to the DA office, that Zimmerman be charged, the day of.

(Personally, I think the FBI's civil rights inquiry should be targeted at the DA, and possibly his phone records, if any, with Zimmerman's father, the night of)

[Skip Intro]

167. You're not alone. nt

[Lost-in-FL]

176. Oh yes... playing the 'fair trial' card and Gitmo... and waiting patiently for a Hitler comparison.

Casey Anthony's case is proof that you can be biased or against someone and still be able to make a smart ruling of innocence based solely on evidence presented (and quality of the evidence).

How convenient it is to now forget that charges were brought against Zimmerman 2 MONTHS after the incident happened. In what side of fairness are you standing? Did the victim get his fairness too? It takes two to murde... errrr... Tango.

[obamanut2012]

210. Exactly -- Casey Anthony's trial is a perfect example

Of a jury in a sensational and highly publicized AND highly emotional making the right decision as PER THE LAW. An overreaching DA wanting a DP conviction is what tainted the jury n that case. It wasn't a DP case.

And, Zimmerman didn't kill a little blonde child and wasn't a "slut" like Anthony was portrayed. His jury pool won't be as tainted as Anthony, who had ZERO chance of an unbiased jury. They were just an unbiased jury with ethics.

[Lost-in-FL]

229. Exactly -- because it was a blonde child it mattered

(per your logic) and her mother happened to be a serial pathological lier and thus 'suspicious'. Zimmerman was just a coward that ran away instead to facing the events and now he is lying his way to freedom perhaps as he did that night.

Unlike Trayvon who look like a 'hoodlum' and left for a gang-banger in a morgue for 3 days perhaps because he 'probably' deserved it... or the "oh well, shit happens". Zimmermann was just a concealed-weapon responsible gun owner so he was left free to go. So there... what justice fell to do, justice will try fixing. That is not revenge as many people believe and who happen to believe that Zimmerman deserves more justice than Tryvon because he was a neighborhood (a pretty pathetic one) watch and is a gun owner.

[obamanut2012]

251. It's not my logic

It is the media's and, to an extent, society's. I don't think a blonde child's death is inherently worse than a black teenager's. I am sorry, and a bit perplexed, that my post made you think that.

[Lost-in-FL]

263. I see your point clearly now and apologize for 'jumping the gun' on you... no pun...

You are right, to an extent it represents the majority of society.


I fail to see a single reason (other than due process) to defend Zimmerman from what he did. It is as if people should feel sorry for Zimmy's lack of judgement and now want to blame the people that are upset at Zimmy and simply want justice served as it should. Fine if one feels so strongly about one's right to bear arms, but to the point of defending this loser? I think it goes too far.

[4th law of robotics]

296. So if it worked out ok in some other instance that means it's a good general policy?

Like say if evidence tampering gets caught in one case and leads to nothing that's cool. Or if the cops beat a confession out of someone but later it's overturned, no worries. Or if they ignore probable cause but later the guy gets off for another reason.

You're main concern seems to be revenge, not justice.

[noiretextatique]

98. the entitlement of some people knows no end

zimmerman felt entitled to "question" Trayvon's right to walk down a street. zimmerman's "defense" is clearly a complete fabrication, but it appeals to racism. a lot of people do agree with zimmerman: a black male is automatically suspect, and should be killed before he kills you. zimmerman's fear claims are absurd, but in the racist mind, black males are dangerous, even 17yo ones with skittles and iced tea.

[BumRushDaShow]

138. Exactly

which is why an elected member of Congress felt that he had the right to break centuries' old protocol and yell out "You lie!" at the duly-elected President of the United States during his State of the Union.

If such a person felt so empowered to do that because of entitlement, then surely it's open season for the Trayvon Martins, and such disrespect and disregard for their lives as humans, is passed down to the next generation and taught to newly arrived immigrants from other countries (which further reinforces the racism).

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

[noiretextatique]

191. yep...the only saving grace is

no one can claim that race is irrelevant, and that racism isn't still very much alive in america.

[whatchamacallit]

103. Exactly! K&R

[noiretextatique]

105. zimmerman will have a more than fair trial because of the sanford police department's failure

the question is: will the Martin family get justice? this isn't about zimmerman: this is about the death of 17 year old Trayvon Martin, which was clearly caused by zimmerman. i do not believe his ever-changing story, and since he's already lied under oath, i don't see how any reasonable person can support him.

[DaveJ]

134. The facts are clear enough already

He went out at night with a handgun looking for trouble. What kind of idiot does that? I'm certain my neighborhood is crawling with teens at night. Even the premise that he was concerned about burglaries, is not justification to kill someone.

Anyone supplied a gun should be aware of the consequences if they decide to pull the trigger.

[noiretextatique]

192. i agree...and his excuses are pathetically transparent

he should have been arrested that night.

[vaberella]

181. True enough. Someone needs to go after the bloody cops.

They fucked up everything. Even at a bail hearing they appeared incompetant. Damn it if you had put Horatio on the stand from CSI:Miami he would appear more intelligent than the lead investigator.

[noiretextatique]

193. indeed

it seems some one has friends in high places.

[librechik]

106. Zimm's own admission that he "didn't know whether (Trayvon) was armed"

undercuts any self defense plea. You have to feel your life is threatened and not just maybe for that to count.

[obamanut2012]

213. And, if you thought they were armed, why chase them???

That would be idiotic.

[NNN0LHI]

128. Warning - Graphic language

The fucking assholes doing this shit will never be forgotten by me.

They go onto the permanent shit list. The one that no gets off of.

They are sick in the head shit heads who have no business on this site.

Don

[abelenkpe]

133. + 1000

I'm personally grateful for the apologists outing themselves. Makes it easier to ignore them.

[noiretextatique]

195. +1000000000000000000000000000

me too. one in particular i've noticed before and will keep an eye on in the future.

[Rex]

201. Almost every one of them have been TSd.

Don't need a list for trolls.

[JohnnyRingo]

136. All I ever wanted were charges and a fair trial.

That he had bail posted is unimportant to the case, and if a jury acquits him on the evidence presented I can accept that decision.

Unlike many, including the OP, I haven't found him guilty or innocent yet. I can say however, that I don't care for his type. I don't like people who think because that have a checkbook with enough cash to buy a gun and pass a two day safety course, they are now the neighborhood police. That alone isn't reason for conviction though, is it?

Let's settle this in the courtroom instead of grabbing the pitchforks.

I recall my Mother-in-law's reaction to the Casey Anthony case. Even though she didn't hear the evidence from a jury box, she watched Nancy Grace and spoke to her elderly friends who hang out at Burger King, therefore she knew for sure Anthony was guilty.

[AtheistCrusader]

163. I am terrified that the state has over-reached in this case, going for Murder 2.

And the Anthony trial is EXACTLY why. There are consequences to the trial and the state's burden of evidence to the form of the charge, and they have reached pretty far with this one.

[TorchTheWitch]

277. manslaughter is also covered in the charges as I recall

So if the jury doesn't feel it can agree to a murder 2 charge they have the option of finding him guilty for manslaughter.

[AtheistCrusader]

279. If it is, it's not in the affadavit.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/11/zimmerman.charges.pdf

Perhaps there are additional documents. I looked, did not find.
Affadavit of probable cause also specifies Murder in the 2nd degree.

Can they not bring two charges at once? This stinks of the Anthony trial.

[TorchTheWitch]

294. from what I understand it's automatic

This was something that was being discussed once the case was turned over to Corey but long before they filed charges. There was some Florida statute that automatically includes the lesser manslaughter charge with a charge of Murder 2. I remember someone citing the statute, reading it and discovering this was the case (and being relieved that it was), but other than that I didn't pay all that close attention.

I'd like to be able to find that thread or threads, but I really don't know even how to begin searching especially since it never seemed to come up as the topic of any OP but discussion about possible charges throughout the discussions.

[AtheistCrusader]

298. That might explain why this didn't happen in the Anthony trial.

Prosecutor swung for the fences with Murder 1, and missed. There was no fallback. Might very well be a statute that applied to Murder 2, that also adds jeopardy for manslaughter.

That would be reassuring, because a replay of the Anthony trial outcome would be terrible in this case.

[LanternWaste]

173. Only a court of law may do that, hence, no one has...

"Unlike many, including the OP, I haven't found him guilty or innocent yet.."

Only a court of law may do that, hence, no one has...

[Skip Intro]

140. Believing in things like due process, evidence and fair trials does not a Zimmerman apologist make.

Apparently that simple point is too much for some seemingly well-educated and reasonable people to grasp.

[NNN0LHI]

157. Everyone I know of here wants due process, evidence and fair trials

To suggest otherwise is disingenuous as hell.

Suggesting that is not the case is an insult. Especially knowing there wouldn't have even been an arrest without public pressure.

Don

[Skip Intro]

166. Well I keep seeing DUers who defend those things

and who say, hey, there are two sides to this story, and we don't know all the facts (hence the need for due process, evidence and fair trials) called Zimmerman apologists, so I assume when I see the term that is what is meant by it.

[LanternWaste]

175. Regardless of whether anyone on the board does or does not have "all the facts",

Regardless of whether anyone on the board does or does not have "all the facts", due process and a fair trial are indeed being scheduled, and not being denied by any opinions on this board.

[noiretextatique]

199. right...so all the hand-wringing about a "fair trial" for the murderer

is complete bullshit. just another way to take attention away from the VICTIM.

[Skip Intro]

267. Perhaps you'd care, then, to define "Zimmerman Apologist"

so that we will all know what the term means and what it doesn't mean?

[frylock]

187. making statements like "it's not illegal to follow someone"

or "why didn't trayvon just tell zimmerman what he was up to" however do make one an apologist, and there's no shortage of people here in that camp.

[AtheistCrusader]

190. Bullshit.

That it is not illegal for Zimmerman to have been armed, or to have followed Trayvon is exactly correct, and will be brought up by the defense.

Since the prosecution has a tough road to prove murder 2, this is an entirely relevant point, and does not mean someone is an 'apologist' for Zimmerman.


If you want to use my words, you keep them in fucking context.

[frylock]

233. awwwwwhhhhh did someone get their wittle feewings hurt?

i didn't name anyone. if you have a guilty conscience, then tuff fucking shit. and fuck anyone that tries to reduce zimmerman's stalking of martin to merely following him. you know as well as i do that asshole was in pursuit.

[AtheistCrusader]

237. I didn't see anyone else who stated it in this thread prior to your post.

If there was someone else, by all means, point it out, and I will apologize.

In verb form, 'follow', 'pursuit', and 'stalk' are synonyms. Either the prosecution or defense will present a more convincing frame, based on the facts, and tie it to a crime or lack thereof, than you will with word smithing.

[noiretextatique]

197. it most certainly does: it is blaming the victim, plain and simple

instead of blaming the person who shot him.

[ileus]

165. If you see me in the neighborhood or anywhere else my PSD is on my side.

As for zimmerman we'll see.


but for me and my family we shall carry on....well actually I'll be carrying.

[Phlem]

168. Excellent!

-p

[Skittles]

184. CORRECT

these folk are either racist or DEEPLY brainwashed by the NRA (if they were both they'd be repukes)

[Rex]

194. Killing a child in cold blood is never acceptable and Zimm will go to jail

for it...over what exact charge I do not know, but he will pay for murdering someone.

[opihimoimoi]

202. Hate to spoil the parade but from this limpets perspective...that asshole might walk free

and if that should occur...there will be a revolution....

It seems they have stacked the deck against commonsense and facts to bolster Zimmermans

side of things...and under the SYG laws, which gives license to anyone using deadly force

in situations as this case...he might just walk...

the only way is for the prosecution to convince the jurors, if it goes to court/jury, that Martin

was a victim of hot pursuit by a wannabe cop and that Zimmerman was guilty of prejudging/

profiling with deadly results.

Zimmerman should be in jail for the rest of his life...do not let him breed even....

[noiretextatique]

212. true...he may walk from the criminal charge

but he won't walk from a civil suit. there is no question that he caused the death of Martin.

[AtheistCrusader]

224. Depends.

One thing the SYG law does, is provide immunity from a civil suit when a shooting is ruled justifiable.

BUT a justifiable shooting would generally never reach trial at all, so maybe it won't shelter him in this case, if he is acquitted.

But it may.. This will be a peculiarity of the Florida statutes, so I can't even guess what the outcome would be here, without precedent.

[malaise]

209. 100% correct

[karnac]

240. probably 2 foolish people made 2 foolish mistakes

Probably one died for his error in judgment.

The other is now forever a pariah and will never walk this earth without fear. Incarceration actually might be best for him now.

2 fool tragedies are far more common than one fool ones.

[karnac]

245. How pretty!

peace..

[karnac]

247. Actually quite true

But perfectly understandable why some feel a need to dismiss outright.
Skepticism is healthy though.

[JonLP24]

248. Now your thread makes more sense

[obamanut2012]

255. So, Trayvon Martin was a fool and made an error in his judgment?

What was the error? That he should have bought Twix instead of Skittles? A Coke instead of Arizona Tea? Hmmmm?

What does your Black Panamanian excellent tree climbing friend think of this case?

[AtheistCrusader]

289. With you on this one.

By all public accounts I have seen, Trayvon Martin at least attempted to flee. Hardly an error given the self-evident severity of the outcome. Flight was a warranted option.

[neverforget]

270. So Trayvon made the mistake of going to the store and walking home?

Seriously? WTF???

[Quixote1818]

288. And had the police arrested Zimmerman right away and charged him, would he be a pariah now?

No he would not as no one would have ever heard of this case outside Sanford, so you can blame poor Zimmy's ruined life on Zimmerman and the Police for fucking up and not arresting him in the first place.

[Iris]

242. CatWoman, you never disappoint!

No matter how long I'm away from DU, when I come back, you always provide a reason for me to stick around a while!

[progress2k12nbynd]

249. Zimmerman is a loser but there's a legal system for a reason...

No trial has started, no evidence has been presented nor witnesses called, and yet he's guilty as....what? Certainly not tried.

Al Sharpon, is that you?

[obamanut2012]

256. Gosh, insulting Al Sharpton, and for what reason?

Because he helped bring Travyon's killing to light from beneath the cover-up?

Why the dig at Sharpton?

[The Magistrate]

261. De Rigueur For These Poseur Types, Sir

A salt of the earth, listen up, my fellow whites, and know what side I am really on sort of thing....

[obamanut2012]

262. Yup

*whistle*

I wanted to see them bring up the Brawley case, which is usually step two.

[The Magistrate]

264. I Do Not Much Like That One Myself, Sir

But Rev. Sharpton has pretty well lived it down.

The thing that I would try even back then to make clear to people was that if a great many people were not convinced they could not get a square shake from the authorities, Rev. Sharpton would be just a fellow on a porch somewhere, that it was the fact of unfairness and shoddy treatment that raised him up and gave him a following, gave him power, and if they did not like the spectacle, the best way to address it was to see to it everybody got treated right as a matter of course.

[obamanut2012]

265. That's a good post

(I'm a Ma'am, btw.)

[Quixote1818]

291. A person doesn't have to be guilty of a crime to be an ass hole

While it remains to be seen what happens in the trial, there is no doubt Zimmerman fucked up big time because an innocent kid is dead. Get it? This has NOTHING to do with the law and everything to do with people defending someone who's careless actions lead to someones death regardless if the law shows him to be guilty or not. Has Mitt Romney committed a crime? Lets say no. Has he ruined a bunch of lives by dismantling companies? Yes! So that makes him an ass hole who hasn't broken any laws.

The fact that people like you are defending the ass hole is really quite fucking stunning!

[ProudProgressiveNow]

266. I will never forget....

as a teenager, getting pulled over IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE by the police and being asked, what I was doing in the neighborhood.

[shimonitanegi]

276. I've read many aplogist's posts on this subject.

They are insinuating that Martin only got what he deserved.
If Martin attacked first, then he deserved to be killed.
If Zimmerman attacked first, it was still self-defense and Martin deserved to be killed.
I just don't get their logic.

[Quixote1818]

293. Spot on!

No logic involved. There is underlying prejudice that they may not even be aware of. They may have thought to themselves that they would have also followed Martin and felt justified killing him if he didn't respect them. It's called projection.

[DevonRex]

285. Right on catwoman.