We shouldn't talk about Ferguson without talking about guns | Vox

[Fred Sanders]

Cross posted in Gun control group:



http://www.vox.com/2014/11/26/7292963/gun-control-police-shootings



"The death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, reveals many things about America. One of them that has not yet received adequate attention is that there is a strong case for a form of gun control that is much stricter than anything that's remotely plausible in the context of American politics.

This is true if you think Ferguson Police officer Darren Wilson should have been found guilty of a crime. But in many ways it's even more true if you think he's innocent of any wrongdoing. A system in which legal police shootings of unarmed civilians are a common occurrence is a system that has some serious flaws.

In this case, the drawback is a straightforward consequence of America's approach to firearms. A well-armed citizenry required an even-better-armed constabulary. Widespread gun ownership creates a systematic climate of fear on the part of the police. The result is a quantity of police shootings that, regardless of the facts of any particular case, is just staggeringly high.

Young black men, in particular, are paying the price for America's gun culture."

................

"A well-armed citizenry required an even-better-armed constabulary".

So awesomely true, where is the flaw in the logic for gun control, a call thst should come from all side?

[GGJohn]

1. I would agree to a few gun control laws,

UBC, mandatory sentencing for crimes committed with a firearm, safe storage laws, although that could be tricky, 4th amendment and all, confiscation of a convicted DV's firearms, etc.
What I WILL NOT agree to is registration, AWB, magazine limits.

IBTL.

[Fred Sanders]

2. Your position is a small minority in the progressive movement.

[GGJohn]

4. I think you nor I truly know what every progressives position is,

in the rural areas of the nation, there are plenty of progressives who share the same position as I do on firearms.
You, my friend, are not the arbitar of what's progressive or not, and don't think I didn't see your little subtle threat about us pro 2A members allowed to post here on DU.....for now.

[Fred Sanders]

6. Yes, every thing is a "threat" in some folk's world, the cult of victimization is attractive to some

[GGJohn]

8. I'm in no way claiming to be a victim,

quite the opposite, I'm a rural progressive Dem who supports the RKBA, I vote and support the vast majority of the Dem party plank.
However, I, and millions of rural Dems aren't going to lay down and watch our rights eroded.
You'll just have to deal with the fact that not all progressives walk in your lockstep idea of gun control.

[NutmegYankee]

12. What's really sad is restricting gun ownership is classically a right-wing viewpoint

Right-wing politics are political positions or activities that view some forms of social hierarchy or social inequality as either inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable. In many nations, guns were restricted to the nobility or politically well connected and commoners were not allowed to own them or highly restricted in that ownership. It is a classic liberal social position to support equality in the population. It is one of those odd things about US politics that the positions reversed in the parties. In reality, the Republicans should support banning guns.

[GGJohn]

13. Yes, you're quite correct.

It was the RW hero, St. Ronnie that signed the Mulford Act in CA that restricted firearms, there are a host of other gun control laws attributed to the RW.

[NutmegYankee]

15. I often call that the Reagan paradox. He did so much damage to the country -

But is hailed a great leader. He piled on massive debt, but is considered fiscally responsible. He raised taxes on the poor and did away with deductions helpful to regular people, but is remembered as a tax cutter. Nevermind the hate he inspired for our public institutions and the vilification of the poor that he championed. The Reagan worship makes me want to

[derby378]

16. Speaking of which...

You seem to be afraid of being "victimized" by a liberal Democrat owning an AK in America. Why is that?

[Mojorabbit]

17. I disagree. nt

[NutmegYankee]

3. So what you are saying is you support militarized police?

This country has always had roughly one gun for every citizen for it's entire history. On it's face, a normal police force shouldn't fear such a scenario. Some do today, only because they no longer serve the people and serve as agents of oppression.

[Fred Sanders]

5. So, you say you did not read the article and have totally missed the point?

[NutmegYankee]

7. The argument in the article is crap.

A sad attempt to justify police violence.

[Fred Sanders]

10. A sad attempt to not admit you did not read the article and now refuse to do so, more like it.

[NutmegYankee]

11. I read it. It's a retread.

Failing to note the differences between us and those other countries. We are the largest multicultural country in the world, with some serious social justice problems that give us a far higher crime rate period. The best thing we could do would be to reduce inequality and improve living conditions.

[99Forever]

9. Should be some members of the Guns are Wonderful Culture...

.. along shortly to explain that "this just isn't the right time to discuss gun violence" or some such bullshit.

[hack89]

14. Young black men are paying the price of America's drug culture

That and poverty and social/economic injustice.

[ileus]

18. I thought the young man in Ferguson was unarmed.

It's not very progressive to try and use this to strip rights away due to an unrelated incident.

[aikoaiko]

19. The flaw in your logic is that we HAVE gun control.

bwahahahaha.

[Bluenorthwest]

20. I don't care for this rhetoric because Mike Brown was unarmed, had no gun and the cop had a gun

This author seems to imply that Wilson shot Brown not because of Wilson's gun but because someone other than Brown might have a gun. The argument seems to be that Wilson was right to shoot Brown because other people have guns.
The reason for police shootings is the police. Mike Brown was unarmed and to my knowledge never owned a gun.

[NaturalHigh]

21. It seems to me...

that the same people who hate guns also hate the police. I guess if someone breaks into my home with a machete, I'm not supposed to defend my family with a firearm and I'm also supposed to hate the police, who, in theory, are racist, misogynist, sadistic creature whom I should never trust.

This is one of the fallacies of the gun control people.

[Fred Sanders]

24. What? Please translate from gunner-talk to English, please. I hate the police. I love the police,

you guys need to make up your minds.

[ileus]

29. guns are rude, and defending yourself isn't progressive.

furthermore don't you realize that only guns kill people. No one has ever been attacked with any other implement.

As for the police yes you're supposed to hate them if they're armed with mean hateful guns.

[Fred Sanders]

34. Implement? Like a combine? You outdo yourself with your machinations in defence of killer weapons.

Entertaining though, give you that.

[ileus]

35. There's no pleasing you is there....

I finally say guns are rude and kill people and you're still not happy.


plus my firearms fall into 3 groups.

1. Life saving devices (Self Defense)
2. Target / Hobby
3. Hunting

None are killer weapons unless they're misused.

[Fred Sanders]

36. Guns are "rude"? Stop it, you are killing me, your silliness is more dangerous than any "implement".

I would add: 4. useful for psychopaths of all kinds, school shooters take comfort!

5. To shoot your parents accidentally

6. To kill yourself easily

7. To take pictures of and post on line to show your manliness

All kinds of total useless and totally deadly uses for killer weapons, I get it.

This rude implement works exactly as intended by the manufacturers, kills real good.

[ileus]

37. most all those fall under misuse.

except for the picture part, and that's just silly IMHO. Video is good if you're going to try and diagnose a accuracy problem.


I recommend not misusing products of any kind....As I always say, Safety First.

[Bluenorthwest]

22. Police are not even in the top 10 jobs with the most fatalities at work, roofers, garbage collectors

fishing industry workers and many other occupations have far more injury and way more death on the job and they are not all fearful and shooting at anything that moves. How do you explain that?
2013, 11.1 deaths per 100,000 Police Officers. 91.3 deaths per 100,000 Loggers. 75 per 100,000 fishing workers, 50 per 100,000 pilots/flight engineers, 38.7 roofers, 33 refuse collectors....
But the cops are so skittish and afraid? By what rational standing?

[Fred Sanders]

25. Per capita is not the same as total, and accidental deaths not the same as criminal acts. Just ask

the families of the dead of gun violence if it would be the same thing.

Ask the parents of Sandy ?Hook if it is the same thing to lose a child by accident or at the end of the barrel of an assault rifle bought at Walmart.

[GGJohn]

26. It is the same thing, dead is dead,

no matter the means, a parent will grieve just as much if their child dies by a firearm or a car accident.

BTW, you can't buy an assault rifle at Walmart.

[X_Digger]

23. aka, "I want to hitch my hobby horse to your popular subject!"

Transparent garbage.

[tblue]

28. I made s roughly similar comment earlier

Gun culture > Fearful cops > Cops killing innocent people

Take away the guns (won't happen) and cops may be less inclined to shoot first, ask questions later.

[Fred Sanders]

30. Thank you for seeing the point the gun folks are purposely missing.

Obviously the less guns in a society the less need for the cops to have guns, as in Britain, Australia and Canada.

Of course cops are scared of guns most of all, again an obvious thing.

They said it could not happen in Australia either, lots of things that happen could never have....gay marriage?

[GGJohn]

31. I can assure you that where I live the Police and Sheriff aren't afraid of civilian firearm

ownership one iota, we have open carry, (I oppose that) and constitutional carry, it's pretty common to see citizen's carrying firearms where I live.

And, once again, Australia doesn't have the 2A, but let's just suppose for some wild reason, the 2A was repealed tomorrow, that still wouldn't ban firearms, it would then fall to the states to set their own firearm laws, and the majority of states have a version of the 2A in their states constitution.

[McCamy Taylor]

32. We should talk about schools.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/21/sunday-review/why-are-our-schools-still-segregated.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region&region=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region

[Township75]

33. Maybe if we had elected politicians with any courage and convictions we would get them to say that

They won't be in he presence of guns and don't need them t be safe. Imagine of we had a real president and a real congress that said they are more in danger of being around guns than not being around guns, and would not have armed security. What if our so called democratic governors said they would not be escorted by armed police. Maybe that would make a statement, and maybe those that own guns would say that if they are ok without guns then we would be too.

Not likely with these spineless cowards