Abolishing the CIA

[99th_Monkey]

Abolishing the CIA
Sunday, December 21, 2014 * Common Dreams * by Robert C. Koehler

The shock resonating from the Senate Intelligence Committee’s CIA torture report isn’t due so much to the revelations themselves, grotesque as the details are, but to the fact that they’re now officially public. National spokespersons (except for Dick Cheney) can no longer deny, quite so glibly, that the United States is what it claims its enemies to be.

We’re responsible for the worst sort of abuses of our fellow human beings: A half-naked man freezes to death. A detainee is chained to the wall in a standing position for 17 days. The stories have no saving grace, not even “good intelligence.”

The Axis of Evil smiles, yawns: It’s home.

The question is, what do we do with this moment of national self-awareness? Beyond demanding the prosecution of high-level perps, how about really changing the game? I suggest reviving S. 126, a bill introduced into the U.S. Senate on Jan. 4, 1995 by Daniel Patrick Moynihan, titled: Abolition of the Central Intelligence Agency.

Abolish the agency that has secretly stirred up hell on earth. Its sins go far beyond torturing suspected terrorists. This agency, with its annual budget (in 2013) of nearly $15 billion, has covertly carried out the bidding of special economic and political interests since its founding, orchestrating, among much else, the overthrow of democratically elected, populist governments in Iran, Guatemala and Chile because the U.S. couldn’t control them. In each case, the regime that followed was darkly repressive, murderous; the blood of their victims is also on American hands.

The abolition of the CIA could be a conscious step in tearing our government out of the grip of the war consensus — this unelected force that feeds on perpetual global mistrust and hatred, the exact opposite of what true security requires. In Moynihan’s speech introducing the bill to the Senate, he declared that the end of the Cold War “was a victory achieved by openness, not secrecy. By frankness, not intrigue.

“The Soviet Empire,” he continued, “did not fall apart because the spooks had bugged the men’s room in the Kremlin or put broken glass in Mrs. Brezhnev’s bath, but because running a huge closed repressive society in the 1980s had become — economically, socially and militarily, and technologically — impossible.”

~snip~

“Secrecy,” Moynihan proclaimed, “is a disease. It causes hardening of the arteries of the mind.”

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/12/21/abolishing-cia

[True Blue Door]

1. Even if it were abolished, the abolition would be temporary.

CIA functions would be gradually adopted by other agencies, along with the same criminal personnel and practices.

There is no Mt. Doom into which you can throw that ring.

If you stopped every American institution from repeating the crimes of the CIA, the webs of Chinese and Russian intelligence fuckery would simply spread into the vacuum, making World War 3 more likely.

We will have to think more creatively than this to make progress on the subject.

[99th_Monkey]

2. What's possible v. what is preferable? OK.

I'm more into imagining CO-CREATING a world without ANY war or torture or violence of most every kind,

You? .. not so much. You seem more into pushing for what you imagine is actually possible.

That's cool. It does take both of us to make a movement, so I'm resisting any
impulses for circular firing squads on the left anytime soon.

[True Blue Door]

3. We tried co-creating a world without violence after World War 1.

It didn't work because one country - ONE fucking country - refused to go along with it. That was all it took to unravel the entire endeavor. I don't fancy a peace and harmony balanced on the head of a pin, with chaos and nightmare awaiting the slightest waver.

Peace has to be built on the willingness of people to defend themselves.
Human rights have to be built on the willingness of people to defend others.

[99th_Monkey]

4. Where did Geneva Convention come from again?

It's not like we've never had an international observance of clear ban on torture of any kind.

It's just that the USA has been in violation of said ban (GC), along with a few other repressive rogue nations, like Syria.

[True Blue Door]

5. The Powers are all in violation. No one did anything to stop Bush.

Not one economic or even diplomatic sanction by a single democracy. Nothing. A handful of tangential political or diplomatic leaders made rhetorical objections and that was it, but certainly no heads of state of major countries. And the reason is that they all occasionally do things like this against foreign insurgencies in former colonial possessions, and not for any shrill, dishonest excuse like allegedly stopping mass-casualty terrorist attacks - basically just because they can.

Britain was doing this stuff in Ireland during the Troubles until practically the 1990s, and are likely still torturing Islamic terrorism suspects even after we've stopped - but because they have absolute de jure media control, they can shut down leaks and throw away journalists without a single whisper of it getting to the public. And that's the best case scenario - there's still plenty of reason to think Britain murders whistleblowers when the stakes are high enough.

Our problem is that our government is openly defending torture. They grind it into our faces that a major fraction of US military and intelligence institutions are criminals who consider themselves above the law, and dare us to do something about it. That is both a special outrage, and a special opportunity to address a rot that infects all powerful states.

[99th_Monkey]

8. Daring us indeed.

Torturers all, please proceed.

I'm SO grateful to The Dick for saying in public domain "I'd do it
again in a minute". <-- I think this was a sea change moment.
Apparently the Dark Lord is not familiar with his Miranda rights.

To myself I was thinking, "would you like some more rope Dick?"

[sabrina 1]

11. We have chaos and nightmare right now. So what we ARE doing isn't

working very well.

According to the Chair of the Intel Committee, Diane Feinstein, 'we are in more danger now than ever' in an effort to continue the 'need for spying on the American people etc. I wonder if she realized she gave us the reason NOT to do so.

Rogers agreed with here, 'we are in a very dangerous world'.

Maybe if we stopped killing people all over the world, toppling their governments and replacing them with worse dictators, we would have fewer 'enemies'.

I'm for starting with abolishing the CIA, an out of control organization with too much power which no organization that is not elected by the people should ever have.

I agree with Moynihan, abolish the CIA, not sure why it was ever instituted in the first place.

[True Blue Door]

13. Feel free to abolish the CIA if you can.

But since this is all idle speculation that won't lead to action, it's worth noting that the same crimes and criminals would just migrate to other institutions that would gradually take over the same functions.

[sabrina 1]

14. No they wouldn't, not only should it be abolished, those who have committed

unspeakable crimes should be prosecuted and sentenced to jail for as long as is warranted. That would ensure they don't go to any other institutions.

And several of them have been tried and convicted in other countries. But the US Govt refuses to extradite them.

Once the country establishes that crimes against humanity will not be committed in our names, if other nations whose citizens have suffered as a result of criminals from the CIA or anywhere else, should have full cooperation in prosecuting them.

If you do the crime you should be willing to do the time. In a civilized society anyhow.

[True Blue Door]

15. I want that too, but a statement of principle is not a statement of intent.

Moreover, we need to acknowledge that no other country has ever achieved the level of justice you're talking about with respect to foreign victims.

Not without being defeated in war and occupied by another country that forced justice on them.

If we're going to achieve this, we will have to break new political ground - not merely recite the language of treaties and laws as if that in itself were sufficient to make people do something.

[sabrina 1]

17. You're right about no other country achieving it without being defeated, such as Germany eg,

but that is because such countries are dictatorships and need outside intervention.

We broke new ground when we defeated the horrible, British Empire. No one else was able to do that.

We also were responsible for helping to establish International Laws forbidding torture and establishing rules of war that were honorable, not to mention, making our own troops safer when captured.

I believe it can be done again. But not until we rid our government of the Neocon influences, from both parties.

THEY are the only reason why we cannot lead the way again, in showing the world how a great and powerful nation CAN act.

[True Blue Door]

24. There are always neocons - always cancerous pieces of shit against all humankind.

WE are the reason we don't make progress. WE are the reason those vermin have such influence. When we are strong, they are insignificant. Only when we are weak do they become significant.

[sabrina 1]

29. Yes, there are but in civilized societies they are kept on the fringes and would

never be able to accumulate the kind of power they have here.

You are right, IF we were strong, they would be insignificant. When we stopped prosecuting them, pardoning them, letting them off the hook, then 'moving forward', we gave them the green light to continue their power grabbing.

[Aerows]

20. I'd like to see the good take precedence over the perfect

That's what those 3rd wayers always screech about - "don't let the tyranny of the perfect overwhelm the good!"

I'm interested to see how such folks respond when it is directly stated, and rightfully so!

[True Blue Door]

26. Some "3rd wayers" are deluded people who are on your side.

Don't let your own sensibilities get in the way of the natural unity.

[Aerows]

27. LMAO!

It's rather fascinating that you leapt to the conclusion that I meant you.

[True Blue Door]

28. ?

[arely staircase]

6. yeah, that's so not gonna happen nt

[Aerows]

21. Yeah, it wouldn't be perfect

it would just be "good."

[Ryan Fitzomething]

7. Ah, No

They, themselves, are necessary. Some of their methods suck, but the Company itself is much more boon than bane.

[99th_Monkey]

9. So you agree with the Kennedy's assassins?

[Ryan Fitzomething]

10. Sorry

Not an Alex Jones fan.

[99th_Monkey]

12. So you honestly believe JFK's murder is completely unrelated

to his pre-assassination speech on up-string clip?

Really?

[Blue_Tires]

16. Let the rest of the world abolish their intelligence agencies FIRST

then we'll see...

[Aerows]

23. It doesn't work that way

Do you think that every single black person needs to be cleared of wrongdoing before the police quit employing stop and frisk methods or utilizing force against minorities?

No, I thought you didn't.

Evil doesn't have to cease in the world before agencies stop being evil. It is called being just, following the Constitution and due process. Those don't just stop because you have the upper hand.

[Blue_Tires]

31. But it also doesn't work in the way of outright abolition...

anyone who does is deluding themselves...

Yes, I despise racial profiling, but you don't see me saying "abolish the criminal justice system"...

[Aerows]

33. I agree that it isn't

an either or.

[HereSince1628]

18. There are over a dozen intelligence agencies in the US.

Getting rid of the CIA would just result in a shift of their mission to another department.

[JEB]

19. No accountability, huge budgets, big profits for

secret contractors....that is the new America for the new century. Get used to it or get anally hydrated.

[Aerows]

22. I am not suprised by

seeing some of the same people clam up when the idea of defunding and shutting the CIA comes up. Every single time there is a suggestion of lessening the grip of authoritarian secret agency's tight control on the US, citizens, and far more importantly, their budgets, you see the same people come out of the woodwork with the same tired excuses of why it is impossible.

I can just about list the people that will chime in that it is impossible. I'm waiting for the person with "no dog in this show" to turn up. It will make this thread complete.

[951-Riverside]

25. That kind of talk just put you on "the list"

...or not. You never know these days.

[99th_Monkey]

30. Yah, i know. I've been there awhile I suspect.

Worked for RFK before he got murdered by BFEE,
worked conspicuously on Chavez grape boycott,
while hanging out with SDS during 60s.

Yep. "The List" has a history too. who knew?

[Aerows]

32. Abolishing the CIA

is absolutely necessary if we intend to continue having a free country.