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Mon Dec 29, 2014, 12:09 PM

I just learned where the CIA got the term "enhanced interrogation."

It's translated from a German term in the Gestapo handbook that means the same. I wonder how much of the Gestapo handbook has ended up in our policies, especially military policies? It seems the committees in the new Congress have many new heads from those shadowy organizations like Blackwater (see Octafish's recent 'know your BFEE' post) from the Bush/Cheney Administration. It was bad enough when they started using the word homeland which was too close to the original German.

Can we ever root them out of our nation or are we too far gone especially when stupid people in red states keep electing them? How do we stop them from completely taking over?

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Reply I just learned where the CIA got the term "enhanced interrogation." (Original post)
Cleita Dec 2014 OP
randys1 Dec 2014 #1
Cleita Dec 2014 #2
randys1 Dec 2014 #3
jmowreader Dec 2014 #9
BumRushDaShow Dec 2014 #21
jmowreader Dec 2014 #23
BumRushDaShow Dec 2014 #31
jmowreader Dec 2014 #38
Triana Dec 2014 #4
Igel Dec 2014 #5
Cleita Dec 2014 #7
Thespian2 Dec 2014 #14
JDPriestly Dec 2014 #36
Cleita Dec 2014 #6
yardwork Dec 2014 #8
Cleita Dec 2014 #18
yardwork Dec 2014 #33
JDPriestly Dec 2014 #37
Hulk Dec 2014 #34
Hulk Dec 2014 #35
Octafish Dec 2014 #10
SomethingFishy Dec 2014 #13
Octafish Dec 2014 #24
SomethingFishy Dec 2014 #28
hifiguy Dec 2014 #43
arely staircase Dec 2014 #11
Cleita Dec 2014 #15
SomethingFishy Dec 2014 #12
Cleita Dec 2014 #16
SomethingFishy Dec 2014 #17
Cleita Dec 2014 #32
WinkyDink Dec 2014 #19
Cleita Dec 2014 #22
reddread Dec 2014 #25
grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #20
Cleita Dec 2014 #27
DetlefK Dec 2014 #29
JDPriestly Dec 2014 #26
Cleita Dec 2014 #30
JDPriestly Dec 2014 #39
Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2014 #40
hifiguy Dec 2014 #41
arikara Dec 2014 #42
MrMickeysMom Dec 2014 #44

Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 12:14 PM

1. In NYC of all places Americans went out of their way to elect a known criminal

In Florida voters took time off from work to elect a man who stole ONE BILLION DOLLARS from the US government.

America has lost it's mind, well half of it anyway.

So I see NO way of fixing this before climate change wipes us off the face of the earth.

The earth will be better off without us.

The universe will be better off, unless we can rid ourselves of racists, homophobes, polluters and especially and above all, wall street capitalists.

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Response to randys1 (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 12:23 PM

2. We've done that for years here in California.

His name is Darryl Issa.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 12:25 PM

3. Forgot about him, Republicans consider these criminals as heroes.

Speaking of criminals, Ronald Reagan has had a book telling the truth about him released this year but I dont know the name.

It was immediately attacked of course by the rightwing pukes, wish I could remember the name

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Response to randys1 (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 01:41 PM

9. Look up Charles Colson too

Charles "Tex" Colson was Nixon's Special Counsel to the President, and was the only person from Dick's White House to be sent to prison over Watergate. When he got out he went into the religion business, and died a hero to the Right.

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:12 PM

21. "Charles "Tex" Colson...was the only person from Dick's White House to be sent to prison

...over Watergate."



So John Mitchell didn't work in "Dick's White House"... Let alone John Dean and the sicko G. Gordon Liddy?

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:14 PM

23. You're right, thanks

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:29 PM

31. I remember watching the hearings

as a youngin' in junior high. I could never figure out the whole cast of characters until I was much older. All I know is that they need to put Liddy back in the pen.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 03:44 PM

38. They need to reopen Joliet for Liddy

I don't want Liddy in a prison with other inmates. Just his being in the same room will contaminate their poor souls and make them unsuitable for anything but a life of crime.

Joliet could be America's Spandau Prison, a place where the last criminals of the Nixon regime spend their dying days.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 12:30 PM

4. Too far gone. We're sitting ducks. Done. n/t

 

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 12:51 PM

5. Probably not.

Yeah, the German term was prior. In German.

What's missing is a link that has some semblance of causality.

Especially since a buzzword for the years ahead of it was "enhanced." We "enhanced" everything, from computers to corporate structure to the taste of chocolate and carbonation. "Enhanced meditation practices" wasn't a Gestapo term. Hell, they didn't really speak English that well anyway.

Simpler and probably more plausible to say that it was a neologism in English.

Note that the German term can be translated a few different ways and for decades "verschaerfte Vernehmungen" was translated as "sharpened interrogation." It's a lazy translation, more of a calque than a translation, but clear enough for government use. If we borrowed the term from German we'd say "verschaerft" and not "enhanced." If we relied on the translations of German materials then extent for our term we'd say "sharpened." Unless we really want to say that the Bushites all eschewed translations in favor of the original German. That's not at all klar.

The English "enhanced" translation--which was indeed an enhanced translation, since it sounds native and not foreignizing--came about later. Whatever the suggested source of the techniques themselves, the English "enhanced term" is almost certainly homegrown. It pays to distinguish between Wort and Sach, between word and thing, between signifier and signified. It's one of the first steps to abandoning magic.

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Response to Igel (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 01:04 PM

7. Can't link from a mobile device.

I think I gave sufficient information for people, who are really interested in this, to Google. I have had enough language classes back in my school days, including German, to know that phrases can be translated in various ways and still mean the same thing. The weasel words, however, are too close to the propaganda words used by the Nazis and make them too close to comfort.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 01:48 PM

14. Thanks, Cleita

Your information is sufficient. I wish I could answer your question. Once Reagan was put in power and surrounded himself with a couple of hundred criminals, the decline in America was pushed onto the so-called slippery slope. Corporate leaders continued their plans to control the states and the federal government. Reagan's minions crushing of the unions and his continuing wars which funded the military-industrial complex kick-started America's descent into oblivion. How long the process will take? Who knows? Even the Koch brothers can't estimate the time of the total domination. They are paying for it, and certainly hope to have control in the near future.

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Response to Igel (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 03:04 PM

36. The linguistic subtleties do not detract from the fact that

we patterned some of our intelligence structure on German NAZI structures. We hired NAZI spies to help us spy. We built on some of the NAZI experimentation in this regard.

This video on Frank Olson refers to the relationship we had with one of the NAZI doctors who experimented with various chemicals and things, one of the ways that our intelligence and scientific communities used NAZI research and technology.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017234947

Another good books on this is Ike's Spies. There are a number of good resources. One is a book on Gehlen, the NAZI spy who had a network of spies in Eastern Europe and Russia. We used his network as I understand it.

There is an undeniable link between the NAZI spying network and the organization of our own intelligence capacity. It was not an altogether negative thing. We do need to know what is going on in the world. The problem with spying is that it is secret and therefore can easily destroy the freedom of the very people whose government is supposedly doing the spying on their behalf. It is extremely dangerous. But it has existed for a long, long, long, long time. It is part of human nature to want to know about the dangers that others and that nature pose to us.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)


Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 01:38 PM

8. The British put children in concentration camps during the Boer War.

That was half a century before WWII. The U.S. Put Indians in camps a century before WWII and we've never given them back their freedom.

Who learns from whom? Check out the medieval torture of water boarding.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:01 PM

18. Torture itself dates back to the beginning of civilization. What's

concerning me is why are we using the same or similar terminology as the Third Reich unless we are operating by their playbook as it seems apparent. I thought we were never supposed to let it happen again.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:33 PM

33. What I'm saying ua the Third Reich learned from us.

The British, U.S., and Germany have a lot of cultural commonalities. We've been teaching genocide to one another for a long time.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 03:40 PM

37. The Catholic Church tortured during the inquisitions. Torture is probably

pretty common in many cultures.

But that does not mean it is legal today or that it is excusable today. Haven't we learned yet that it is not a good way to obtain intelligence?

Sure. You may occasionally get bits of intelligence of value from torture. But mostly you are going to get a bunch of rubbish that the tortured "give up" to please you. Torture is not just cruel. It is a crap game.

For any one bit of valid information you get, you may get a lot, even mostly rubbish. I should think that people who are tortured begin to fantasize and begin simply talking about their nightmarish hallucinations. I don't know that for a fact. But I can read between the lines. We got a lot of false information from people we tortured.

And then think of the money we wasted on the whole torture experiment. It is a total loss.

Note that the NAZIs who tortured during WWII to get information LOST THE WAR. Same for the Japanese.

Fact about torture is that those who delight in it, who believe in it, waste resources that could be used to analyze the facts and obtain intelligence through more dependable means.

ENIGMA during WWII produced enormous amounts of valuable intelligence about what was really going to happen. It did not reveal long-range plans necessarily. But it did give our troops the heads-up on events to come in the short term.

Countries that rely on torture to provide them information are njot only morally corrupt but probably not using their resources wisely.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:38 PM

34. Because it worked then, and now.

I just watched a video the other day regarding this very subject. I'll have to remember the name of it, but there is a LOT more than just terminology from the Nazi past that is most similar. The Blackwater in New Orleans, the militarization of the police. The demonization of a religious and ethnic group of people to rally against; and so much more.

It wasn't just a parallel between what is going on here and Nazi Germany, but also other fascist nations in history: Mussolini, Pinochet, Southeast Asian governments. It's ALL happening now, and with the same "covers" as in history.

I think we are headed for an ugly future, sorry to say. If there isn't something drastic that occurs, we are doomed to a brutal, oppressive future.

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Response to Hulk (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:42 PM

35. I remember now

It was that young lady who was appearing on the cable networks, MSNBC, etc, awhile back. I'll remember her name and see if I can post it on the thread later today.

Naomi Wolf...I'll check on the name of the Utube video, but it was spot on.

"End of America". Saw it after seeing it posted on this site.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 01:44 PM

10. Truman worried CIA would morph into GESTAPO

"Verschärfte Vernehmung"



The phrase "Verschärfte Vernehmung" is German for "enhanced interrogation". Other translations include "intensified interrogation" or "sharpened interrogation". It's a phrase that appears to have been concocted in 1937, to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods, as you can see above, are indistinguishable from those described as "enhanced interrogation techniques" by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo, moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their "enhanced interrogation techniques" would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan.

SOURCE: http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2007/05/-versch-auml-rfte-vernehmung/228158/

A brief overview:



Impunity at Home, Rendition Abroad

How Two Administrations and Both Parties Made Illegality the American Way of Life

By Alfred W. McCoy

After a decade of fiery public debate and bare-knuckle partisan brawling, the United States has stumbled toward an ad hoc bipartisan compromise over the issue of torture that rests on two unsustainable policies: impunity at home and rendition abroad.

President Obama has closed the CIA’s “black sites,” its secret prisons where American agents once dirtied their hands with waterboarding and wall slamming. But via rendition -- the sending of terrorist suspects to the prisons of countries that torture -- and related policies, his administration has outsourced human rights abuse to Afghanistan, Somalia, and elsewhere. In this way, he has avoided the political stigma of torture, while tacitly tolerating such abuses and harvesting whatever intelligence can be gained from them.

This “resolution” of the torture issue may meet the needs of this country’s deeply divided politics. It cannot, however, long satisfy an international community determined to prosecute human rights abuses through universal jurisdiction. It also runs the long-term risk of another sordid torture scandal that will further damage U.S. standing with allies worldwide.

Perfecting a New Form of Torture

The modern American urge to use torture did not, of course, begin on September 12, 2001. It has roots that reach back to the beginning of the Cold War and a human rights policy riven with contradictions. Publicly, Washington opposed torture and led the world in drafting the United Nation’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948 and the Geneva Conventions in 1949. Simultaneously and secretly, however, the Central Intelligence Agency began developing ingenious new torture techniques in contravention of these same international conventions.

From 1950 to 1962, the CIA led a secret research effort to crack the code of human consciousness, a veritable Manhattan project of the mind with two findings foundational to a new form of psychological torture. In the early 1950s, while collaborating with the CIA, famed Canadian psychologist Dr. Donald Hebb discovered that, using goggles, gloves, and earmuffs, he could induce a state akin to psychosis among student volunteers by depriving them of sensory stimulation. Simultaneously, two eminent physicians at Cornell University Medical Center, also working with the Agency, found that the most devastating torture technique used by the KGB, the Soviet secret police, involved simply forcing victims to stand for days at a time, while legs swelled painfully and hallucinations began.

In 1963, after a decade of mind-control research, the CIA codified these findings in a succinct, secret instructional handbook, the KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation manual. It became the basis for a new method of psychological torture disseminated worldwide and within the U.S. intelligence community. Avoiding direct involvement in torture, the CIA instead trained allied agencies to do its dirty work in prisons throughout the Third World, like South Vietnam’s notorious “tiger cages.”

The Korean War added a defensive dimension to this mind-control research. After harsh North Korean psychological torture forced American POWs to accuse their own country of war crimes, President Dwight Eisenhower ordered that any serviceman subject to capture be given resistance training, which the Air Force soon dubbed with the acronym SERE (for survival, evasion, resistance, escape).

Once the Cold War ended in 1990, Washington resumed its advocacy of human rights, ratifying the U.N. Convention Against Torture in 1994, which banned the infliction of “severe” psychological and physical pain. The CIA ended its torture training in the Third World, and the Defense Department recalled Latin American counterinsurgency manuals that contained instructions for using harsh interrogation techniques. On the surface, then, Washington had resolved the tension between its anti-torture principles and its torture practices.

But when President Bill Clinton sent the U.N. Convention to Congress for ratification in 1994, he included language (drafted six years earlier by the Reagan administration) that contained diplomatic “reservations.” In effect, these addenda accepted the banning of physical abuse, but exempted psychological torture.

CONTINUED w/links and details...

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175582/tomgram%3A_alfred_mccoy,_perfecting_illegality/



More light for Idlers and my ilk from George Washington University on The CIA and Nazi War Criminals.

ETA:

This got published in the Washington Post and, evidently, few other newspapers at the time:



Limit CIA Role To Intelligence

By Harry S Truman
The Washington Post, December 22, 1963 - page A11

INDEPENDENCE, MO., Dec. 21 — I think it has become necessary to take another look at the purpose and operations of our Central Intelligence Agency—CIA. At least, I would like to submit here the original reason why I thought it necessary to organize this Agency during my Administration, what I expected it to do and how it was to operate as an arm of the President.

I think it is fairly obvious that by and large a President's performance in office is as effective as the information he has and the information he gets. That is to say, that assuming the President himself possesses a knowledge of our history, a sensitive understanding of our institutions, and an insight into the needs and aspirations of the people, he needs to have available to him the most accurate and up-to-the-minute information on what is going on everywhere in the world, and particularly of the trends and developments in all the danger spots in the contest between East and West. This is an immense task and requires a special kind of an intelligence facility.

Of course, every President has available to him all the information gathered by the many intelligence agencies already in existence. The Departments of State, Defense, Commerce, Interior and others are constantly engaged in extensive information gathering and have done excellent work.

But their collective information reached the President all too frequently in conflicting conclusions. At times, the intelligence reports tended to be slanted to conform to established positions of a given department. This becomes confusing and what's worse, such intelligence is of little use to a President in reaching the right decisions.

Therefore, I decided to set up a special organization charged with the collection of all intelligence reports from every available source, and to have those reports reach me as President without department "treatment" or interpretations.

I wanted and needed the information in its "natural raw" state and in as comprehensive a volume as it was practical for me to make full use of it. But the most important thing about this move was to guard against the chance of intelligence being used to influence or to lead the President into unwise decisions—and I thought it was necessary that the President do his own thinking and evaluating.

Since the responsibility for decision making was his—then he had to be sure that no information is kept from him for whatever reason at the discretion of any one department or agency, or that unpleasant facts be kept from him. There are always those who would want to shield a President from bad news or misjudgments to spare him from being "upset."

For some time I have been disturbed by the way CIA has been diverted from its original assignment. It has become an operational and at times a policy-making arm of the Government. This has led to trouble and may have compounded our difficulties in several explosive areas.

I never had any thought that when I set up the CIA that it would be injected into peacetime cloak and dagger operations. Some of the complications and embarrassment I think we have experienced are in part attributable to the fact that this quiet intelligence arm of the President has been so removed from its intended role that it is being interpreted as a symbol of sinister and mysterious foreign intrigue—and a subject for cold war enemy propaganda.

With all the nonsense put out by Communist propaganda about "Yankee imperialism," "exploitive capitalism," "war-mongering," "monopolists," in their name-calling assault on the West, the last thing we needed was for the CIA to be seized upon as something akin to a subverting influence in the affairs of other people.

I well knew the first temporary director of the CIA, Adm. Souers, and the later permanent directors of the CIA, Gen. Hoyt Vandenberg and Allen Dulles. These were men of the highest character, patriotism and integrity—and I assume this is true of all those who continue in charge.

But there are now some searching questions that need to be answered. I, therefore, would like to see the CIA be restored to its original assignment as the intelligence arm of the President, and that whatever else it can properly perform in that special field—and that its operational duties be terminated or properly used elsewhere.

We have grown up as a nation, respected for our free institutions and for our ability to maintain a free and open society. There is something about the way the CIA has been functioning that is casting a shadow over our historic position and I feel that we need to correct it.

SOURCE: http://www.maebrussell.com/Prouty/Harry%20Truman's%20CIA%20article.html



So. One month after the assassination, President Truman expressed public concern CIA had strayed off the reservation from intelligence gathering of foreign news sources to cloak-and-dagger operations. Time -- and the Church Committee -- has since shown CIA operated, illegally, domestically.

Allen Dulles, on behalf of CIA, even asked Truman to retract it. From Ray McGovern...



Fox Guarding Hen House

The well-connected Dulles got himself appointed to the Warren Commission and took the lead in shaping the investigation of JFK’s assassination.

Documents in the Truman Library show that he then mounted a small domestic covert action of his own to neutralize any future airing of Truman’s and Souers’s warnings about covert action.

So important was this to Dulles that he invented a pretext to get himself invited to visit Truman in Independence, Missouri. On the afternoon of April 17, 1964, Dulles spent a half-hour trying to get the former President to retract what he had said in his op-ed. No dice, said Truman.

No problem, thought Dulles. Four days later, in a formal memo for his old buddy Lawrence Houston, CIA General Counsel from 1947 to 1973, Dulles fabricated a private retraction, claiming that Truman told him the Washington Post article was “all wrong,” and that Truman “seemed quite astounded at it.”

No doubt Dulles thought it might be handy to have such a memo in CIA files, just in case.

A fabricated retraction? It certainly seems so, because Truman did not change his tune. Far from it.

In a June 10, 1964, letter to the managing editor of Look magazine, for example, Truman restated his critique of covert action, emphasizing that he never intended the CIA to get involved in “strange activities.”

CONTINUED...

SOURCE: http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/122909b.html



Democracy.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 01:48 PM

13. Beat me to it by 2 minutes... and did a much better job...

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:18 PM

24. No race -- just want to peg the NAZI-lubbing so-and-sos for what they are: Fascists.

''Let’s forgive the NAZI war criminals.'' -- president George Herbert Walker Bush, quoted by The New York Times of April 14, 1990.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:22 PM

28. Yeah, and they're gonna get away with it...

SQUIRRELL!!!


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Response to Octafish (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 04:21 PM

43. The people on whom Smedley Butler blew the whistle

 

NEVER went away. They went underground for forty years or so but they never disappeared. Their goal was to make the US a fascist/corporate state and their dream never changed. When they re-emerged in the 1970s their first objective was to refashion the M$M into pure propaganda conduits. It took 20 years but they accomplished that. Once the propaganda machinery, including the fundy "churches" was in place, the rest was fairly simple - dumb down the populace as dramatically and quickly as possible. Public education was another top target. We now have a huge segment of the population who have been propagandized non-stop for 35 years and who have the critical thinking skills of a fern. Sheeple like that are very easy to lead in to the capitalist/feudal abbatoir that was the other prong of their plan.

Fascism has come to the US just as Sinclair Lewis warned it would - wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 01:45 PM

11. link?

I am notbdoubting you but would like a source before I repeat this. And if true it is worth repeating.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 01:54 PM

15. Can't link from a mobile device, however Octafish put up a

detailed post right above your. The speaker on Free Speech TV talked about the Gestapo handbook, which I referred to in lower case because it wasn't clear to me if it was an actual handbook or a filing cabinet with Gestapo policies.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 01:46 PM

12. Not just the term... (which actually means "sharpened or intensified")

They took the whole Nazi torture playbook.

http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2007/05/-versch-auml-rfte-vernehmung/228158/


But, it's over, it's behind us, we must move forward and stop being so sanctimonious.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 01:56 PM

16. Thanks. I need to study this more. I thought I was pretty much up on all

things Third Reich but it looks like I need to learn more on how the same policies are saturating our government including the terminology.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:00 PM

17. I do find it interesting that whenever the current "boogyman" is in the news

the right wing always uses Godwins law.. "He's worse than Hitler"! Then when the time came, they went straight to Hitler to learn how to properly torture someone.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:30 PM

32. I think it's pretty calculating.

Back in the decade after the end of WWII calling someone a Nazi was a fighting word. Today the way our so-called news bandies it around about liberals, it cheapens the word making it lose its punch.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:04 PM

19. "Was, ich soll mir Sorgen machen?"---Prescott Bush.

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:14 PM

22. Are you saying Alfred E. Neuman was really Prescott Bush? eom

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:19 PM

25. "Well, they brought it on themselves"---Joseph P. Kennedy Sr.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Kennedy,_Sr.

no reason to be unfair about who was sympathetic to Hitler.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:12 PM

20. Now they want you to call it 'EIT'. It's torture.

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:21 PM

27. How is adding a word making it okay?eom

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:23 PM

29. It's all harmless, abstract abbreviations until somebody slams your head against a wall.

Then, all of a sudden, it becomes torture again.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:20 PM

26. We borrowed a lot from the NAZIs when forming our CIA and other intelligence agencies after

WWII.

Eisenhower was quite impressed with British intelligencce. He was quite a fan.

There is a book on Eisenhower's infatuation with intelligence called Ike's Spies.

Our ability to win WWII was in great part thanks to our superior intelligence.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 02:24 PM

30. So we take from the worst instead of the best.

We could be learning about social justice from Denmark, the Netherlands and other countries, yet we prefer to take the worst and make it ours.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #30)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 03:47 PM

39. You got it.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 03:55 PM

40. "Befehl ist Befehl" ("orders are orders") is back by popular demand from the torturers.

 

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 04:14 PM

41. The OSS snapped up all the high-level Nazis they could find

 

at the end of the war, and it wasn't to put them on trial; it was to learn from them and their methods. So did Soviet military intelligence. These supposedly "ex" Nazis had a profound effect on the development of the New Fascist Security State that is now being openly displayed, though it has been in the oven for 60 years.

They can' be stopped at this point.

The New Fascism is going to have to come and go of its own accord. There's no way to stop it anymore as both political parties are in total thrall to the New Fascist/tenth-percent elite. The propaganda machines are too big, too sophisticated and too well-funded to be stopped and a significant plurality of the populace is possessed of critical thinking abilities that make the proverbial bag of hammers look like Einstein.

The last 35 years have seen this country intentionally dumbed down to a degree I would never have thought possible back in the 1970s. Stupid people are much easier to control. The propaganda machine, which includes the cretinous fundy "churches," has conquered all that has come before it. Politicians that have, for the last 35 years, been bought and paid for by the tenth-percenters and emerging New Fascists, serve only the masters that pay them, and that is true for BOTH parties.

TPTB learned long ago, and took special note of a certain period in 20th century German history, how a easily even a well-educated mass populace can be manipulated. But Goebbels didn't try to make the German people DUMBER. His mistake was not repeated by our oligarchs, whose first project was to make as many people as dumb as possible. Sheeple are very easy to control and can easily be convinced to vote against their own interests.

The New Fascists want a populace that is just barely smart enough to make the machines work and fill out the forms, but are nowhere near smart enough to think critically and ask questions such as "just who the fuck put us in this handcart and why is it getting so hot?"

Obama let the banksters go scot-free and will do nothing to prosecute torturers even though he is under a non-dischargeable legal duty to do so and is reifying War Now War Forever in the Middle East..He is complicit in all the crimes of the past 35 years because he has done nothing to punish those responsible and has actively pursued the same policies. The last six years have shown that the system is now wholly under the control of the New Fascists and it is NOT going to change anytime soon - probably not in the lifetime of anyone here on DU.

It will take a planetary catastrophe to topple The New Fascism, but that catastrophe WILL come as surely as the sun rises in the east. Asteroid strike, nuclear exchange, climate-related world disaster - something of that nature will be needed to clear the boards and make it possible to examine the possibility of a humane and sustainable society based on principles of democratic socialism.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 04:19 PM

42. Operation Paperclip

where they brought in hundreds of nazi's who they whitewashed and put to work for the US after WWII.

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Response to arikara (Reply #42)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 11:19 AM

44. There you go...

Whatever works…. at the time, is what we'll wheel and deal with.

I believe some of the scientist (Einstein) regretted this move, too.

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