Ralph Kramden... Character who is abusive or lovable dude trying to just survive?

[diabeticman]

My wife was talking to her friend who couldn't believe my wife had the classic 38 episodes. My wife's friend believes Ralph Kramden is a wife abuser who should no longer be held as an endearing character.


My wife laughed at her friend and said Ralph is not a wife abuser. In fact he is a hen pecked husband who is afraid to lay a hand on his wife. He worshiped the ground she walked on... She said the yelling and the Bang Zoom to the Moon is nothing more than what her Italian family members do. You scream you vent but you love.


So does Ralph promote oppression or is it just a charming character?

[Kalidurga]

1. It isn't always what is said, it's how it is said and what it means to the audience

Alice knew there was a snowballs chance she would get hit. And if Ralph dared to do anything that even came close to being abusive I don't think he would be long for the world.

[brooklynite]

2. That's like saying Col. Klink should have been prosecuted for War Crimes...

Last edited Wed Dec 31, 2014, 09:43 AM - Edit history (2)

In the entire run of the Honeymooners, Ralph never got the upper hand over Alice.

[earthside]

5. Excellent reply.

The Honeymooners was one of the greatest comedy television shows ever ... the humor and pathos are in near perfect balance.

The Col. Klink analogy is apropos.
It is just too bad that there are some folks out there who just have to find the fly in even the most soothing ointment.

[Hekate]

15. +1. That, and times change. What's funny changes. nt

[KittyWampus]

75. "Address the ball" and "Poloponies" NEVER gets unfunny.

I can, after all these years, still laugh every single time I think of Norton addressing the ball.

Every. Time.

[wryter2000]

78. HelllloooooOOO, ball

thanks for reminding me of that

[meaculpa2011]

88. I took a beginner's golf class at the local high school...

20 years ago.

The instructor showed us the proper grip, stance and ball position then ordered... "Address the ball."

All eight men in the class answered: "Hello ball!"

The two or three women in the class were just puzzled.

[SummerSnow]

27. I remember he would call himself a mope when he was wrong.

He would tell his wife that he wasn't good enough for her. Then he call her ' the greatest'. So sweet.

[MADem]

52. Many do not realize that Col. Klink was Jewish... (odd fact, there) and so was Schultz!

As for Ralph, his "To the moon, Alice" was always a weak threat, a "Why, I oughta..." of the era. Alice always ran the show, because Ralph was such a lovable loser. Alice put up with his BS because she loved him, and because of the way gender roles were so clearly defined back in the day.


http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/this-day-in-jewish-history/this-day-in-jewish-history-col-klink-of-hogan-s-heroes-dies.premium-1.482977

The great irony of “Hogan’s Heroes” is that many of the principal roles, in particular among the Germans, were played by Jewish actors, several of them refugees from occupied Europe. John Banner, who played Sgt. Schultz, had been abroad when the Germans invaded Austria, and he was able to gain entry to the U.S., but he lost most of his family in the Holocaust. Robert Clary, who played the diminutive French POW Louis LeBeau, was himself a survivor of Buchenwald, while most of his immediate family was murdered in Auschwitz. Others included Leon Askin (also a refugee from Vienna) and Howard Caine, both of whom played German officers.

[brooklynite]

56. Werner Klemperer had an understanding in his contract...

...that if Colonel Klink EVER came out ahead in the storyline he would quit.

[hifiguy]

63. Very true. He was also the son

of the great conductor Otto Klemperer and a fine violinist in his own right. He had to purposely play out of tune when playing the violin in character as Klink.

[VScott]

93. One of my favorite lines.

Maj. Hocksteader: (to Gen. Burkhalter) "Do you really believe Klink is guilty of treason"?

Gen. Burkhalter: "Treason, no. Stupidity, yes".

[LiberalElite]

53. +1,000 -

I'm looking forward to watching Ralphie Boy and the gang this eve in the annual New Years Honeymooners Marathon.

[Kingofalldems]

74. What channel?

[LiberalElite]

77. A local NYC station WPIX-11

http://blog.sitcomsonline.com/2014/12/new-years-eve-2014-and-new-years-day.html

[Coventina]

61. As the Kommandant of a POW camp, the series never portrays him as committing war crimes.

In fact, he is a pretty lenient Kommandant, all things considered.

If his character had been real, I doubt he would have come up for prosecution.
If anything, the Allies would have avoided it, as he unwittingly assisted their operation.

So, yeah, anyone saying Klink should be prosecuted certainly doesn't know their Hogan's Heroes.

[LiberalElite]

62. A couple of good

friends who each adopted several cats over the years and took the best care of them they could, would say when they got angry at the cats: (friend #1) I'm gonna break your tail! and (friend #2) I'll take you to Chinatown and they'll make chow mein out of you!
Were they promoting animal abuse? NO! Just venting in frustration.

[madinmaryland]

92. Huh? Col. Klink was too incompetent to be prosecutedd for war crimes...

Neither could Sargent Schultz!!

I SEE NOTHING. I HEAR NOTHING. I KNOW NOTHING.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. I'm thinking your wife needs her own account here.

[tammywammy]

10. I think she used to have an account. n/t

[KMOD]

21. sincere question,

being new here, I find it odd, as well.

I hope I'm not overstepping by asking if his wife is physically ok? I'm not familiar with the history, but I do wonder why she doesn't post her own questions.

As to the topic at hand, Alice was portrayed as the strongest character on the show.

[libodem]

48. What?

I think it's cute how he brings up what his wife is saying.

Its more honest than Faux's, "Some people say".

Many of his posts start out my wife said or did this or that to open a conversation.

[Xipe Totec]

4. I never saw him lay a hand on her. Still...

The threat was there always. And I am sure more than one machista saw the implied threat as permission.

So, yes, Ralph promotes oppression in my opinion.

[BlueJazz]

6. I never thought for a second that Alice was in any danger. Alice knew he was...

...lovable blowhard....and everybody else assumed that also.

[elleng]

7. Charming character.

Would never have been so successful if abusive, and of course Alice wouldn't tolerate it.

[arcane1]

8. It was the classic use of humor to ridicule the powerful.

The "man of the house" was king back then, and Ralph's bluster was a parody of that. He always issued the threat, but never acted on it, and the threat never caused Alice to change her behavior.

He was a buffoon and everyone knew it.

[Ino]

9. I was a little girl when this was on TV...

I was terrified of that character.

[ann---]

26. Me, too

He was bombastic and I did not know anyone in real life like that - especially my father. So, I was afraid of him.

[KingCharlemagne]

11. 3-4 women are killed each day in the U.S. at the hands of spouse or

domestic partner. As a young man, I may have found the Honeymooners 'funny,' but knowing that someone of Ralph's girth and heft could easily have killed Alice had he physically struck her has taken the funny away. Now when I watch (or mostly) just think about them, I cringe and upbraid myself for once having thought it funny.

[loyalsister]

12. Context matters

It was not considered outrageous for men to hit women at that time. Watching movies from the 50s and 60s is very revealing in regards to that attitude. It seems as though it was par for the course in any relationship.
I've always thought sitcoms from those days were pretty misogynistic. In the family sitcoms, the man was always the decider and most important family member. Lucy was ridiculed and demeaned while Ricky Riccardo spoke with an exaggerated accent and promoted Latin stereotypes. Pop culture and entertainment of that time like any other was a reflection of cultural mores. We were an even less enlightened culture during that time.

I don't think we would ask the same question about Archie Bunker's racism, but there is plenty of evidence that his character reinforced the legitimacy of those beliefs for others. Consider the educational level at the time. It wasn't high, and criticism of domestic abuse was uncommon, and criticism of racism was less common for working class people.

[YarnAddict]

28. The education level "wasn't very high???"

"All in the Family" ran during the early '70's, and, believe it or not, there actually were many educated people at the time. There are some who would say that today's college education is equivalent to a high school education back then. And considering there was no need to offer remedial education at the college level then, that's probably a pretty accurate assessment.

[loyalsister]

34. Think averages and cultural intelligence

The greatest generation had the power and they were the most powerful. They were the producers and writers of the shows I mentioned. They were rarely involved in civil rights or the women's movement. And they carried the attitudes of the 40s and 50s.

[YarnAddict]

38. But,

it was us Boomers who were much more likely to spend large percentages of our time in front of the TV. The Greatest Generation knew other ways to entertain themselves, and usually did.

My dad read a lot, and my mother was usually busy running the house, and doing my dad's "bookwork." Relaxation took the form of playing cribbage, or having friends over to play cards. I also remember my dad just sitting outside and looking at the night sky.

My sis and I were the ones who were the TV-watchers in our family, but much less so than the kids in my dh's family. To this day, if my husband is home, the TV is on. There have been times that I've turned it off when he goes in the bathroom, just to have a little peace and quiet!!!

[loyalsister]

43. There are still massive numbers of boomers who are racist

It was a minority of white people who supported civil rights. Archie Bunker, Ralph Kramden, were men to cheer on for some. Ricky Riccardo and Lucy presented stereotypes of Latin men and irrational women that had people laughing as their biases were confirmed.

[YarnAddict]

47. Ralph and Archie

were ridiculous characters. We laughed AT them, not WITH them. Rather than cofirming biases, I think they just pointed them out in caricature.

As for Lucy and Ricky, they represented an ethnically mixed marriage, which was way, way ahead of its time. The humor relied less on ethnic stereotypes and misogyny than on physical gags and the ridiculous situations Lucy got herself into. Probably the most memorable episodes were those like the candy assembly line and similar things.

Yup, some boomers are racist, but some X-ers and millenials are, too. Racism is never going to go away, sadly enough.

[loyalsister]

50. "We" who?

Sure, you your friends and many many others may have viewed these shows from a philosophical perspective. But there was still a HUGE contingent whose biases were confirmed. Every time Lucy got into one of her crazy situations, Ricky was there to scold her with an exaggerated accent.
You are talking about a time when domestic physical violence it was acceptable and it was not a crime for a man to rape his wife. It was an entirely different culture that was reflected and misogyny and racism was part of it.

[LiberalElite]

55. Times do change you know -

and so do people's attitudes. BTW it's Ricardo with one c.

[Bluenorthwest]

57. Do you know that Ricky Ricardo's accent was in fact Desi trying to have as little accent as possible

so when you say he had an 'exaggerated accent' you are not correct. That's how Desi talked. I Love Lucy was created by and produced by Lucy and Desi, to suit their skills. They owned the company in which they produced the show. Lucy and Desi, along with director Marc Daniels, created the multiple camera shooting method for TV comedy which became the only method used for sitcoms until The Office and continues to be the dominate method.
Lucy was a comic. The comic wants to get seltzer in the face. That entire show was created to give Lucy the exact platform she wanted, to do exactly the comedy she wanted to do. Created by Lucy and by Desi.

[hifiguy]

82. Their control over "I Love Lucy" was absolute.

It was their baby, just as you say.

[loyalsister]

96. Have you ever heard of blacksploitation?

There were plenty of African American participants. You can defend it and pretend it isn't happening to your hearts content, but there was plenty of misogyny built into television during the golden age. Are you really trying to argue that misogyny was not alive and well on television and everywhere else before the women's movement?

[cwydro]

79. Wow

You really need to do some reading.

[Agnosticsherbet]

13. John Wayne regularly spanked his leading ladies on film. The Quiet Man, McClintock, and many more.

It was a common scene in those old movies.

I don't think it could be done today. Times have changed, for the better.

[MADem]

72. Oh, it could be done, but the context would be very different indeed....

There's probably more than one "late night" movie on one of the bluer channels with a scene on those lines!

[Agnosticsherbet]

73. Yes, but the context in the old moves of he 50's and the60's were different.

I don't doubt that directors were using it for titillation, but it was just accepted that a husband, within certain limits, was allowed to correct his wife.

Very different world.

[MADem]

97. Father Knows Best!

In actual fact, poor "father" was shitfaced half the time--that avuncular and cheerily didactic attitude was a byproduct of demon booze as much as sexist scriptwriters....

That nonsense was everywhere--not just in film, but all over TV, too:

[nichomachus]

83. It wasn't just films

[TheKentuckian]

14. Alice would kick his big ass to the moon faster than any rocket before his hand ever landed.

On occasion I might worry about Norton but Alice was the head honcho of the Cramden house.

[longship]

16. If he had, Alice would have eaten him up.

There was no doubt who was in charge in that household, and who was the henpecked, albeit blustery, husband.

Alice always held the winning hand. Always!

[Jetboy]

17. It's so easy to criticize tv, movie and music from decades ago

but I would argue that things are worse today.

Sex and violence permeate media and music more than ever before. I saw a chart recently that had the most common words in pop hit song titles through the decades of the 1890s to now. Today's words included 'We Yeah Hell F*ck Die'. It's just not a nice world today and and we don't have the excuse of living 60 years ago.

People should quit worrying about art from the very distant past and do something about it today if they actually care.

Enjoy the Honeymooners or don't watch it. But the people who made it are all gone and don't need enlightening on how they may have been wrong 60-70 years ago.

[NewDeal_Dem]

18. +100

[TreasonousBastard]

20. You got it.

[TheFrenchRazor]

22. it's not either/or. just because stuff is messed up today, doesn't

doesn't mean that stuff wasn't messed up in the past. "joking" about violence should be done very carefully, or better yet, not at all.

[Jetboy]

29. Nobody said stuff wasn't messed up in the past.

[WinkyDink]

32. NEWSFLASH: Domestic abuse was reprehensible in the 1950's. We aren't talking about the 14th century.

[Jetboy]

35. NEWSFLAS: Domestic abuse is reprehensible in the 2010s. We aren't talking about the 1950s.

[LiberalElite]

58. We're talking about a program made in the 1950s

before a live audience. Ralph's BANG-ZOOM threats taken in the whole of the series, are just a lot of talk. He has a big temper and blurts.
The only time he lays a hand on his wife is to HUG her.

[YarnAddict]

36. Agree 100% n/t

[seabeyond]

19. When I was little and the show was on, I could not stand it.

I was very young and sensitive and never saw anything funny about the man. I took it as abusive when I had no knowledge of abuse thru my family environment and age.

I have never watched when I got older. I simply remember being appalled and have never had any desire to see the show.

[el_bryanto]

33. I thought it was a consistently bad show myself - I can see the appeal of Jackie Gleason

He's a likable guy in a lot of other roles - but I just couldn't get behind that one. I think it survived because it was one of the few shows of that era to be preserved - one of the first to go into reruns so it ended up being ubiquitous and shaping what we thought of as funny in that era.

It's like the Amos and Andy radio shows- which are even more toe curlingly awful today - but in their day were so popular that movie theaters would stop movies so that they could broadcast the Amos and Andy Show - so part of me wonders what the deal was. So I tried to listen to them - I couldn't make it 15 minutes. The racism was awful, but beyond that the jokes were dull and the world just wasn't very involving.

While I do think there are things in old time movies, TV, and Radio shows that are worthwhile, sometimes it's just baffling and not worth the time.

Bryant

[CTyankee]

37. As a kid who lived with domestic violence, I was afraid of Ralph Kramden.

IIRC, he would curl his fist and say "one of the days, Alice, POW right in the kisser!"

I don't find that endearing at all.

Let's be clear. He was threatening his wife with physical violence. Why is that funny to ANYBODY?

[YarnAddict]

40. It wasn't a documentary!

Anyone who can understand the difference between fact and fiction can figure out that he never hit her, and was never going to hit her.

[CTyankee]

42. I'm telling you from a child who had witnessed actual domestic abuse what I

felt in my gut, when I watched that show. No, I didn't "figure it out" the way you are presenting it.

[seabeyond]

49. and a child who never experienced domestic abuse felt in my gut. i was very young. or.... re runs

i do not know when the show was running. but, it was not like we had it on, in our house.

no. not everyone enjoys aggressively physical, hatefully loud voice for entertainment.

[Smarmie Doofus]

23. He was both. I always thought their dynamic was fascinating.

He was full of bluster and, indeed would periodically threaten physical violence.

But can anyone doubt that Alice was clearly the dominant figure in the relationship?

[CTyankee]

46. I do, because he was big and threatening.

Let's not pretend that domestic violence did exist in those days, just as it does now. It is just that so many women were blamed for their own abuse and the women's movement came after this show. Ms. Magazine did a cover story on it back in the early 70s and a lot of men were shocked that they used that line. They, too, thought it was just humorous and feminists had "no sense of humor."

[MADem]

65. She could cut through his BS like a hot knife through butter--and she did. Often.

[Smarmie Doofus]

70. I forgot how good she was.

Pitch-perfect timing. Cutting, biting sarcasm.

Also.... the Alice character was relentlessly LOGICAL.

No question who the "real boss" was here.

(Actually that was the storyline of one episode, as I recall. Ralph told a newspaper reporter that he was the "boss" of his household and spent the remaining 25 minutes of the show trying to hide the newspaper from Alice.)

Case closed.

[MADem]

71. The King of the Castle!!!!

[Orsino]

24. Abusive, lying, cowardly, sexist and conniving, yes.

Perhaps not as worthy of the near-worship the character garnered in his time.

But still pretty funny. Kramden was probably racist, too, but he existed in a bubble.

[surrealAmerican]

25. Neither he nor his wife were lovable characters.

That was the main interest in the show - how nasty people deal with one another.
Norton was the lovable character on that show.

[WinkyDink]

31. "Hello, ball!"

[YarnAddict]

44. Very funny!

IMHO, shows back then were funnier. The dialogue had to be more clever, and they had to use a lot of physical comedy. Today's writers just rely on sex jokes or bathroom humor to score laugh points. It's lazier.

Again, just my opinion.

[aikoaiko]

95. freakin hillarious

[oberliner]

39. "That was the main interest in the show - how nasty people deal with one another. "

This is definitely not true.

[WinkyDink]

30. Personal context is everything. My Sicilian relatives were harmless; my Irish father was not. His

bark was more than once accompanied by a bite.

So no, I didn't like Ralph Kramden and his loudness and his threatening gestures.

[PeteSelman]

41. Still one of the funniest sitcoms ever.

Jackie Gleason was a genius.

https://m.

[edhopper]

45. I agree with your wife

I never felt the threat was real, just an expression of his frustration.

The unique thing about the show though, was it showed the working poor. They were not middle class. And a lot of Ralph's frustration was not being able to do better for her.

[tiny elvis]

51. if audrey meadows had flinched even slightly

when he did his thing, it would be very different
they knew that
that is why she did not flinch

[DawgHouse]

54. I didn't get the feeling he was an abuser.

I understand others may have felt differently.

The one who makes me cringe now is Ricky Ricardo. I Love Lucy is by FAR my favorite show and I've watched each episode so many times I can pretty much quote the dialogue of them all.

Over the years, I've noticed how many episodes showed Lucy cowering against the wall while Ricky read her the riot act about something. She was also always trying to fix the situation so Ricky wouldn't "get mad".

[Coventina]

59. I found both characters to be unpleasant and the show unfunny.

But maybe it's a generational thing.

[BklnDem75]

60. If anything, Alice's mother had more to fear from Ralph...

It's not the most disturbing thing I've seen on tv. Clint Eastwood's High Plains Drifter use to play on regular tv when I was a kid. The whole time I'm thinking 'Isn't this rape?!'

[gollygee]

64. I don't understand the dichotomy

"trying to survive" and "abusive." I don't understand how or why it would be a choice between one or the other.

[Inkfreak]

66. Nostalgia is cool. But why watch it now?

It's horrible TV. With sitcoms like Parks & Rec or HIMYM and other well written shows, the old stuff pales in comparison. I would wager an Emmy winning show these days would garner far more laughs than any of the old sitcoms. Far smarter TV these days. I'm glad I never had to sit through those insufferable shows.

[oberliner]

67. Is this sarcasm/parody?

You are comparing "How I Met Your Mother" favorably to "The Honeymooners" ?

[Inkfreak]

86. No. It's an opinion. No better than yours. No less. (nt)

[oberliner]

90. Fair enough

Genuinely couldn't tell if you were kidding or not - no offense intended.

[Inkfreak]

91. No worries, Happy New Year.

[seabeyond]

68. i had my 17 yr old watch a couple my day movies, thinking they will be funny.

that he will enjoy. instead i watch and think.... not very funny, really. other shows, today, has us laughing so much more. way more clever.

i agree.

i have felt egg on my face having done this with son a couple times. i do not try anymore. some they have really enjoyed.

the music though? we kicked ass. and they know it.

[Inkfreak]

87. Lol, no arguement about the music. (nt)

[BubbaFett]

69. The content of your post

is asinine.

I am not saying you are, just your opinion.

[Inkfreak]

85. Ok. (nt)

[Ilsa]

76. I watched the Honeymooners because that's what my

Parents had on TV. I never thought his threats toward Alice were fun or entertaining. In fact, they generally confirmed my instinct to be repulsed by Ralph.

[Throd]

80. And how will we be judged with the convenience of 60 years of hindsight?

[hifiguy]

81. Ralph was a big, lovable blowhard who would never

hurt a fly. Alice knew it and so did everybody else.

[JustAnotherGen]

84. I have to say first

My husband is from the Calabria region of Italy. Like - he's from there. Not an American of Italian decent.

That's a stereotype that perhaps is used as an excuse? His indoor voice sounds like he's at a Hockey game - but when he gets mad he gets quiet. And he doesn't threaten me physically - and it's not funny to him.

That said - Cramden was a man of his time and a slice of America from a bygone era.

I own All In The Famiy and Sandford and Son on DVD. So I can appreciate the humor and the "man of his time".

My dad never like the Honeymooners - but he wasn't one to use mean words towards women.

[meaculpa2011]

89. There was only one case of spousal abuse...

in the Honeymooners.

Trixie smashed Ed with frying pan. I think it was the "Fishing Trip" episode.

[irisblue]

94. I was a beaten child, my sister got it worse, maybe the screams of a deaf child sound different

We went to an Irish Catholic school with a heavy overlay of ethnic Czechs., from 1950 to 1970 Weals from belts were often on out legs. We wore tights in winter to walk to school. Come spring time, bruises, in varying tones and color were ALWAYS visible. It was a 'family matter', if anyone, any uncle, neighbor man, priest has sad anything to my father, maybe things could have been better for us. Ralph Carmden scared me to pieces, near 50 years later, he can still make me have cold prickles of fear.

[ailsagirl]

98. Never cared for his jokes about smacking his wife Alice

You know-- "one of these days...POW-- right in the kisser!!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

99. I liked him better when his name was Fred Flintstone.