More on Matthew Owens beating - He did pull a knife on kids playing basketball.

[Saving Hawaii]

Dang, I called that.

It started with a game of basketball. Kids in the Delmar Drive neighborhood play almost every night, and Saturday their ball found its way into a yard down the street where Matthew Owens was staying.

Neighbors say Owens confronted the kids as they chased their ball.

"We said we're sorry," says David Dinkins, one of the kids playing. "He said 'get the F out of the yard!'"

Dinkins says that's when Owens started spewing racial slurs and pulled out two knives.

"It was like kitchen knives," Dinkins says. "They were long."

The kids ran off, but an angry group returned. Police haven't confirmed how many were in the crowd, but they beat Owens so bad he landed in the hospital.

Not saying that the right response is to beat the man to the edge of death. You should call the police. But the rightwing's attempts to claim that this is a hate crime in response to Trayvon Martin are absolute bullshit. No, it's what parents do when jackass 40 year-olds pull knives on their kids.

http://www.local15tv.com/news/local/story/Mayor-Police-Delmar-Beating-Not-A-Hate-Crime/sZA4gRm-_kmh8Jx-OhV-ig.cspx

[coalition_unwilling]

1. The original report said that Owens had 'fussed' at the kids. Yeah, right,

'fussed' at them with two butcher knives.

I also called bullshit on the story as originally published first thing this morning.

[Enrique]

62. me too

now I know what fussing means: racial slurs and butcher knives.

[Catherine Vincent]

139. Fussed at

Fussed at was said by his sister. Of course she would't have said what really happened before the beating.

p.s. I don't condone the beating.

[vaberella]

2. Two kitchen knives and Racial slurs....You don't go and threaten people that way.

Does it deserve the beating he got...No. However, even if cops were called. Knowing the state their in, that guy wouldn't have been blamed for threatening the lives of kids with knives and slurs.

[obamanut2012]

24. It depends on the jurisdiction in this state

A DUer has said this area is very racially diverse.

[The Magistrate]

3. Color Me Un-Surprised, Sir

The initial story posted here was clearly crafted to inflame.

[exboyfil]

4. Charge the mob and charge Owens

let the justice system sort it out. You can't have people taking the law into their own hands like this (note to Zimmerman). The law needs to be applied consistently and fairly. The mob should have called the police.

I still think that not prosecuting those responsible for the Reginald Denny beating set a horrible precedent. Being in a mob is no excuse.

[obamanut2012]

25. I think calling it a "mob" is framing this badly

It wasn't a "mob."

[Snake Alchemist]

32. It is the definition of a mob. You can call it a gang if you like though. nt

[obamanut2012]

37. Neither a gang nor a mob, but this response is expected from you

The angry black mob beating up a poor old crazy man.

[Snake Alchemist]

44. What would you call a group that gathers and seeks out a person for a beating? nt

[exboyfil]

59. It is vigilante justice plain and simple

I think mob is an accurate description.

Oxford Dictionary:

mob
A large crowd of people, especially one that is disorderly and intent on causing trouble or violence:

disorderly
Involving or contributing to a breakdown of peaceful and law-abiding behaviour:

They were intent on causing violence and they caused violence (the beat down of this man).

They are a mob. They can present mitigating circumstances for the beat down, but, if they are not brought to justice for responding to hateful speech and threatening behavior with a violent physical assault, what would happen to a murderer or child molester?

[Beacool]

107. Yes, they were a mob.

Or do you give them a pass because they are AA? They were a mob. What does their race have to do with it?

[Honeycombe8]

144. "Mob" and "Gang"

dictionary.com


mob
   [mob] Show IPA noun, adjective, verb, mobbed, mob·bing.

noun
1.
a disorderly or riotous crowd of people.

2.
a crowd bent on or engaged in lawless violence.

3.
any group or collection of persons or things.

4.
the common people; the masses; populace or multitude.

5.
a criminal gang, especially one involved in drug trafficking, extortion, etc.

*****************************************

gang
1    [gang] Show IPA

noun
1.
a group or band: A gang of boys gathered around the winning pitcher.

2.
a group of youngsters or adolescents who associate closely, often exclusively, for social reasons, especially such a group engaging in delinquent behavior.

3.
a group of people with compatible tastes or mutual interests who gather together for social reasons: I'm throwing a party for the gang I bowl with.

4.
a group of persons working together; squad; shift: a gang of laborers.

5.
a group of persons associated for some criminal or other antisocial purpose: a gang of thieves.

[coalition_unwilling]

67. Um, there were prosecutions in the Reginald Denny beating. Running

behind so can't do research for cites now but, unless I was smoking Maui Wowee, my memories are of 2-3 black males being prosecuted (as they should have been).

[KamaAina]

104. "not prosecuting those responsible for the Reginald Denny beating"?

You must mean "not getting convictions for everyone". The LAPD moved heaven and Earth to identify the perps from grainy footage shot from a helicopter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Denny_incident#The_trials_of_the_L.A._Four

On May 12, outgoing Los Angeles police chief Daryl Gates started a search for three of Denny's attackers who were identified from the video of the beating. Gates himself arrested Damian Williams while Henry Watson and Antoine Miller were arrested by other officers. Soon afterwards Gary Williams gave himself up to the police, having stolen Denny's wallet. The arrested three were suspected to be part of the gang 8-Tray Gangster Crips.

Gary Williams pleaded guilty to charges of robbery and assault in the spring of 1993 and was sentenced to three years in jail. Judge John W. Ouderkirk granted Miller a separate trial on the grounds that the strong evidence against Watson and Damian Williams could harm his case. The two, in addition to assault charges, were charged with attempted murder. Damian Williams was also charged with aggravated mayhem....

After a few jury changes, a hung jury resulted for all charges except a felony count of mayhem for Williams, and one misdemeanor assault charge for both Williams and Watson on October 18. Watson was then given credit for time served and was released. As the families of the defendants celebrated the lesser sentences, Denny surprisingly approached Damian Williams' mother Georgina and hugged her. Other family members then exchanged warm embraces and words of reconciliation with him.

[exboyfil]

114. I stand corrected

I was remembering an attempt to minimize the actions as righteous acts of anger, but my analogy was wrong.

Thanks for the correction.

[Lilyeye]

5. Like I said in another thread, its still no excuse for a bunch of people to beat on one guy.

If it was going to come to that, it should have been a fair fight. However, these new reports show even more how extremely desperate the right wing is to find their own Martin case. It looks as though Owen instigated the fight. They were trying hard to turn this into a "white guy was beat because of the Martin case outrage" type of story. It seems as though tensions have been brewing for sometime between this guy and others in the neighborhood.

[cmlkb]

9. Lilyeye

News is imbalanced and designed to inflame, both right and left in some cases. Take time to get all the facts, not sure how since so much is emotionally laden and leading. The TRUTH matters. The divide between left/right, black/white is sadly grown wider. No "side" is all right while the other all wrong.

[Lilyeye]

11. Trust me, I am aware. Its really sad to watch.

[CatWoman]

12. could you please give me an example of the left's "imbalance" of news?

thanks in advance.

[The Magistrate]

14. Caught My Eye As Well, Ma'am

[obamanut2012]

26. Yes, I would like some too

I would even like to know what is "left media" on a national level in the US, at least at the same level as Fox, Limbaugh, etc.

[ieoeja]

63. Hollywood

Hollywood is leftwing. Most of what we see on TV is from Hollywood. Ergo, most of the media is leftwing.

They feel rightwing news is necessary to balance leftwing entertainment. They don't want to admit that fact. And most have been grousing about Hollywood leftist tendencies so long that they don't really think about the disconnect. "Leftwing media" is just common wisdom to them now. The whole repeat a lie long enough shtick.

[coalition_unwilling]

65. Oh please. "Hollywood is leftwing". Gary Sinise (star of CSI-New York) is

a notorious right-winger. I'm not a star-fucker, so can't give you other examples but there are many. Likewise, watch any recent episode of "NYPD Blue" if you want to see a weekly enactment of right-wing authoritarian fantasies, where due process and other such quaint and obsolete notions are derided as liberal niceties not suitable for a muscular profession like the NYPD.

[Hermes Daughter]

141. RWNJ's in Hollywood

Mel Gibson, John Voight, Dennis Miller, James Woods, Chuck Norris, Kelsey Grammer, Fred Thompson, Jim Caviezel, Dennis Hopper, Patricia Heaton, Adam Sandler, Ben Stein, David Zucker, Bruce Willis, Arnold Schwarzenegger...

[Hermes Daughter]

142. Left-Wing Entertainment (Hollywood)

In spite of the above actors, successful entertainment is left-wing because right-wing world views are bullshit and people won't pay to see it. The RW in Hollywood laments the "dearth of quality RW talent" but the fact is, RW people tend to be either stupid or liars with little empathy for the human condition. This makes it impossible for them to produce anything but self-serving propaganda.

[ieoeja]

166. When you think of Rightwing entertainment the first thing that comes to mind is: Ayn Rand.

Who had to insert THE MONOLOGUE because she was incapable of embedding her point in 200 pages of actual story.

Then there was the original "Cheaper by the Dozen". The story would periodically pause so the father or mother could give a rightist speech. After the children oohed, ahed, goshed and "I didn't know that" the movie would then return to the storyline. It was sadly pathetic.

Or maybe, instead of the writers being incapable, they have to do this because the target audience is incapable of understanding unless it is specifically spelled out for them. I always figure rightists claiming that something does not mean what it obviously means because it is not literally stated, or bigots not understanding the difference between racist and racial, are lying. Maybe they really are that fucking stupid?

[fascisthunter]

92. What about News...

try

[ieoeja]

117. "They feel rightwing news is necessary to balance leftwing entertainment."

Yes, the news is 99% Rightist. For that matter, you can, with a lot of patience, get them to admit that, when they say the news is "too Liberal", they mean it is not 100% Conservative under certain circumstances.

The "Liberal news" meme really set in during Viet Nam. While the news was heavily slanted to a pro-US stance, sometimes it did delve into truths that were not entirely pro-US. Or that let anti-war protestors actually speak on TV. Conservatives feel that the news has a duty to be pro-US 100% of the time during a time of war. So they weren't claiming the news was 50%+1 Liberal. They were complaining that it was not 100% Conservative.

And, as stated previously, they also believe that Conservative news is balanced by the dominate Liberal message in the entertainment portion of the media. It's a remarkably bad comparison as entertainment shapes the way you feel while news shapes the way you think.

Of course, they do claim to be fighting a culture war where feelings and opinions are opposite sides of the same coin. Still, heads ain't tails.

[fascisthunter]

135. I agree with you.... I know it's how they feel, and frankly I don't care anymore

because I think most of them, actually know its a lie, but hang on to it, because the ends justify the means. They use something plausible and run with it, until it is snuffed out.

[Lilyeye]

116. Good question that I should have asked as well

When I responded, I was agreeing to the divide between people.

[Bake]

22. No excuse (and I was pretty vocal yesterday, but today I understand a little better).

But I can tell you this: anybody who pulls a knife on MY child is going to answer to me! That's a whole lot more provocation than some ugly words.

Bake

[Lilyeye]

124. I understand Bake. Pulling a knife out on a kid is terrible.

I can understand somebody wanting to kick his ass because I would want to do the same if somebody did that to my kid. Its just the mob violence that takes it on another level and makes it wrong for me. It does seem as though this man has a history of stirring the pot. He really stepped in it this time.

[cmlkb]

6. question

I have one question. Where did he pull out these long butcher knifes from? His pocket? They apparantly were concealed at first, so where?

[Maine-ah]

10. posted in an earlier thread:

http://blog.al.com/live/2012/04/tensions_leading_to_beating_of.html

“He ran in here and got 2 butcher knives. I said, ‘What are you doing with these?’” he said. “He was in a rage.”

[cmlkb]

15. Thanks for the link

Thanks for the link. I'd read several stories, but not this 1.

[lonestarnot]

7. I knew I smelled bullshit. Leaving out 1/2 the story makes the story bullshit.

[cmlkb]

8. Owens in the wrong

Owens may have been in the wrong in what he did, but does that justify beating? Sad that so many, on either sad of ANY issue resort to violence.

[trumad]

16. 3 days max

[UnrepentantLiberal]

17. Yup.

[obamanut2012]

27. 12 hours

[UnrepentantLiberal]

33. Over/under?

I'll take 2 days.

[obamanut2012]

39. Depends on activity level

[UnrepentantLiberal]

42. And how long they plan to fly just below the radar.

[Starry Messenger]

13. Ah, so "fussed" in this instance meant "acting like a serial killer".

Fascinating.

[Snake Alchemist]

18. Sounds like your average crazy old man who lives down the street.

No excuse to beat him savagely.

[obamanut2012]

28. Now you are downplaying a 40-year-old who pulled knives on kids???

And who used racial slurs?

You really have no shame, do you?

[Snake Alchemist]

30. No, you are downplaying the savage beating of an old man.

Why didn't they call the police? This story reeks.

[obamanut2012]

36. Yes, the original story did reek, and Owens isn't an old man

You absolutely are shameless.

You know, Georgia has a SYG law, too, and getting an asskicking for threatening minors with knives is covered under that law.

[Snake Alchemist]

45. No, you are shameless.

This reminds me of the defenders of prison rape. Does SYG apply when gather a group of people to actively seek out a person for a beating?

You are right about the age though, I thought he was older.

[NCTraveler]

49. Everyone going in their own direction, where they were then safe...

then a group returning later to deliver a beating is covered under syg laws?

[Hermes Daughter]

143. Call the police?

ROTFLMAO

Are you serious? The upside is this fussy guy -- and maybe a few others -- will think twice before they go all ape-shit and pull knives on little kids thinking they can get away with it. Having grown up surrounded by redneck males, I can assure you they only understand ONE thing. Sorry.

[Snake Alchemist]

162. Boy, that is a disgusting slippery slope. nt

[Hermes Daughter]

167. That it is. nt

[Snake Alchemist]

19. Good to see the former mayor of NYC keeping in shape. nt

[Capt. Obvious]

20. David Dinkins shooting hoops in Alabama

I was wondering what happened to the former mayor of NYC

[FSogol]

47. +1

[slackmaster]

21. He threatened some young people with a weapon, and nobody called the police?

Something's not right with this story.

[vaberella]

66. Depends. Most Black people don't trust or think cops will side with them.

Especially when it comes to a White man and their kids were trespassing on the property he was visiting on. In essence he had a right and the kids had none would be the normal answer. I sincerely doubt myself if a cop would do something if anything to this man. The only people who might have called the cops are his non-Black neighbors.

[Liquorice]

136. You act like all cops are white. They're not. Alabama has many black cops. nt

[BklnDem75]

138. So does New York...

Doesn't make that feeling any less true. Ask Kenneth Chamberlain.

[vaberella]

161. Did I say that? It's not about all cops being Black or White...it's about All cops being cops.

They are a law unto themselves and I don't trust them be them Black or White...ditto for my two cousins who are cops. When they wear their uniform...they are one of them for me. And institutional racism exists be them Black or White. Get it together.

Lastly...I'm from Harlem and I have NEVER seen a Black cop in Harlem....NEVER! Oh there are plenty of Black cops in NYC...but they are not placed in Harlem...that is for sure.

[obamanut2012]

23. It makes the judicial response understandable to an extent

Even though they should have called 911.

I knew the Trayvon thing was BS, and was glad law enforcement confirmed that yesterday evening.

[Snake Alchemist]

31. Don't you mean extra-judicial???

Glad you are okay with a gang beating up an old man.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

82. The guy is 40, which isn't old. But no, it wasn't OK to beat him up.

[fugop]

29. Holy hell

Don't read the comments in that story. They are the most depressing, offensive, just mind-blowing comments. I just ... I have no words. The hatred is incredibly depressing. It's not that I don't know it's out there, but wow. I live in a diverse community, and I find it so beautiful that my kids don't even notice skin color differences - unless they're trying to describe someone to me, in which case it's a characteristic described in the same way as hair color or height.

But the people posting responses to that story? Terrifying.

[Kaleva]

34. If true, I have no sympathy for the guy.

If one pulls a weapon when the situation doesn't warrant it, they've just made themselves a candidate for a Darwin Award in my view.

[Snake Alchemist]

35. So it doesn't matter that it's an old man who may have mental issues?

And it's not like they attacked him right at that moment. A mob was assembled and they WENT BACK for him.

[Kaleva]

38. No it dioes not. Sorry but that's the way I feel about this.

To be sure, that doesn't justify what the mob did to him and they ought to face charges but that doesn't mean I have to feel sympathy for him either.

[obamanut2012]

41. +1

[Snake Alchemist]

46. I understand your position, but this guy did not hurt anyone.

He may have waved around a knife on his porch, but happened to him afterward is just savage.

[Kaleva]

50. Yes, what happened to him is savage and...

those that beat him ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

As for the rest of us, I think this is an example of what can happen if a person pulls a weapon. The situation can quickly escalate into a matter of life or death.

[Snake Alchemist]

52. I understand. Thanks! nt

[obamanut2012]

40. He is 40-years-old, stop the spin

He threatened minors with knives, for chasing a ball into his yard.

[Snake Alchemist]

43. I had thought he was much older, but there is NO EXCUSE for gathering a mob for a vigilante

beat down. Are you also a fan of prison rape?

[EOTE]

48. No one is excusing what was done.

Some are saying they don't have sympathy for an asshole threatening CHILDREN with knives for playing. So you can stop acting like people are excusing what happened. They suggested that there was more to the story and there was. Suggesting that not having sympathy for a douche who'd threaten children with weapons is nowhere near equivalent to advocating prison rape, so brush up on your equivalency skills.

[Snake Alchemist]

51. Saying the response is "understandable" is inexcusable. nt

[Bigmack]

55. Snake... where do you live..?

I grew up in a large metropolitan city, and the cops were too busy with real crime to settle neighborhood disputes. "Street Justice" was usually handed out in the neighborhood.

It most certainly is NOT the best justice, but the neighbors had contacted the police before and gotten nowhere.

They beat his ass for him... they didn't kill him.

It's not lawful... it's not right... but it is "real world".

I suggest you join that real world.

[Snake Alchemist]

57. I grew up in one of the greatest cities in the world and am still close.

But we evolved beyond mob justice. I don't believe the police were ever called before for him brandishing a weapon.

[exboyfil]

61. What would the neighborhood do with a murder?

The man pulled knives on children - that is an assault. Contact the police. They will come out and investigate. If they refuse to then contact the media and the politicians.

I never ever heard of this type of neighborhood justice (sheltered life in suburbs I guess).

Charge both the mob and the crazy guy with the knives.

[dkf]

105. Oh so now there is no condemnation of vigilantism? Funny how that works.

This case is a fascinating test to examine consistency of principles. Whereas before Zimmerman was supposed to have waited for the police I guess because he is white, this crew was correct in not even calling them and creating their own justice. Convenient. There does seem to be one set of rules for people who are white or Hispanic vs people who are black. I'm beginning to see we have all been conditioned to accept certain behaviors based on race. And we wonder how these judgments lead to prejudice.

I personally am going to wait to see if there is anything written in law that would exonerate the mob, same as the Martin case.

[Lilyeye]

126. or maybe because Trayvon was not in the middle of commiting a crime nor did he do anything

for Zimmerman to get out of his car for; besides just being a black kid in his prominently white neighborhood. With that said, I agree that the mob violence was wrong. All those people on one is not right. However, that man was wrong for what he did too. Its just an unfortunate story all around.

[Bigmack]

134. Two things...

First... race has nothing to do with the neighbors kicking the ass of somebody threatening their kids with a knife.

Second, Zimmerman killed Martin. Big diff.

[dkf]

150. Latest allegation is Owens confronted the kids about stealing.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/26/victims-sister-mobile-ala-black-on-white-beating-sparked-by-theft-not-basketball/

[BklnDem75]

164. What else is new from a right wing rag?

Soon they'll say he's a chef and was in the middle of cooking when he confronted the kids.

[Saving Hawaii]

146. No. Most here have suggested that vigilantism is unacceptable and punishment is appropriate.

But it's understandable. As I said to another person, "If you pull a knife on my kid, either you or I are going to jail." Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. But I can understand these parents wanting to protect their kids given the incapacity the police had shown in the past.

[EOTE]

76. And so is pulling a knife on some kids playing basketball. NT

[Snake Alchemist]

79. Absolutely. nt

[obamanut2012]

80. It is understandable

Get back to me after someone threatens your kids with knives just because their ball went into some psycho's yard.

911 should have been called, but I also understand how someone could snap after their minor-aged children have been threatened at knifepoint by an adult.

It's odd you can't get this, since you want everyone on DU to put themselves into George Zimmerman's shoes.

[Snake Alchemist]

85. Heck, it's happened to me personally! We used to play stickball in the field of a Catholic School

when I was a kid. Sometimes we'd hit balls over the fences of the houses that were next to the school. Normally, we'd just let them go, but if we didn't have spares we'd sometimes climb the fences and retrieve them. One time we climbed a fence into some old man's yard (mind you old meant somewhere between 50 and 80 since we were 11-12) and a man ran out waving a ball-peen hammer in the air. We high-tailed it out of there and ran until we were out of breath. We never went in that yard again. He was probably just tired of us messing up his fence and bushes.

Should we have organized a mob?

[obamanut2012]

93. It would have been understandable if your parents were upset you were threatened

It would have also been understandable if they were angrier because he called you slurs, and had a neighborhood history of doing so. I could also understand if they and some friends confronted him and he kept calling you and them slurs, and threatened to lynch them. It would also be understandable if they snapped because of this and beat him up. I wouldn't agree with their actions, but I would understand becoming angry at continued abuse, assault, and threats to lynch their children.

[Snake Alchemist]

94. Truthfully, he wasn't coming at us with hammer. Just waving it in the air.

Looking back on it he probably just wanted to scare us and he accomplished that in spades. I know what my parents would have told me if I had told them. "Stay out of other people's backyards"

I don't understand why if you hear someone is brandishing a weapon at your children that you would not call the police.

[Saving Hawaii]

147. Snake...

There is a difference between "old man sees you in his yard and brandishes a hammer chasing you off" and "old man with a long history of violence in the neighborhood, of calling your kids ni**ers and threatening to lynch them, of arrests for violence, rushes outside in a rage and pulls a knife on your children".

I know what the appropriate response is to that. But I can't promise you that I'm a good enough person to live up to that when a man with a long history of extremely vitriolic threats decides to pull a knife on my kid. I hope I'm a better man than that, but I can see where you could snap. Especially when the appropriate response is to contact a police department that has repeatedly failed to resolve the situation.

[Rex]

106. So you are not sitting on the fence on this one?

Why not?

[Snake Alchemist]

110. Hasn't been much argument over what happened.

Crazy/racist man yelled at some kids and likely brandished weapons. Kids left, and mob returned. Doesn't seem to be any witness arguing these basic facts.

Personally, I think that everyone should be charged.

[Rex]

112. Yeah everyone should be charged.

All that committed the crime imo. I don't see the Martin case being any less clear about what happened - guy got out of his car and shot a kid.

[Snake Alchemist]

115. Some witnesses say Martin attacked Zimmerman when he turned his back.

Some say that wasn't the case. Some say Zimmerman was the one screaming, some say it was Martin. Things like that will have to be worked out in a court of law.

[Rex]

118. All we really need to know, here on DU

is where the bullet entered and left the kids body. So no, it is really not that much different. We are just waiting for them to release the medical details on the bullet hole. And why would you think things like THIS would not need to be worked out in a court of law? Both cases need to be brought before a jury...no one is saying otherwise.

Some witnesses say...is a bad way to start a post imo.

[Snake Alchemist]

119. The witness testimony is out there.

There are widely differing accounts of the Z/M case. In this case, not so much.

[Saving Hawaii]

148. No witnesses state what you claim.

The only person who attests to that is the man who shot Trayvon Martin. How quickly we believe a gunman's alibi when it's convenient. I'm not convinced that Zimmerman is guilty but I'm not convinced that he's innocent either. It's appropriate that this case is finally being pursued with due diligence.

[shimonitanegi]

159. Why do you have to lie?

There is no eyewitness who saw how a fight started.

[BklnDem75]

165. That's only one possibility

Angry parents could've approached the guy to stay away from their kids. Slurs and threats from the idiot drew more of a crowd and escalated the situation. Not exactly as premeditated as you're making it out to be. At least be consistent.

[LanternWaste]

58. Nor is there an excuse for brandishing a knife and yelling epithets

"NO EXCUSE for gathering a mob for a vigilante..."

Nor is there an excuse for brandishing a knife and yelling epithets. Observation of the latter does not deny the former...

Additionally, I don't think that the observation of either implies that one may be "a fan of prison rape". That you may perceive that certainly advertises much more about you than your intended target of rhetoric.

[Snake Alchemist]

60. Exactly, but one action does not excuse the other or make it understandable.

Fans of these kinds of extra-judicial acts tend to be fans of savage violence as long as it's pointed in the direction they want.

[vaberella]

70. Actually in some cases it does.

I know my first reaction would be if I saw that man pull a knife out on my kid...would be to retaliate. 30 some odd people is excessive...and I'm not speaking for them. But for myself...I would hurt him.

[Snake Alchemist]

72. Absolutely, if this had happened in the moment then it would have been understandable.

But they went back to get him.

[vaberella]

121. If it had happened to my kid early afternoon and I was told in the evening...Hell yes I would do it.

If they had known for hours and been stewing in it...questionable. But some people claimed some of these people were dressed up...which could mean they were going to an event (church was suggested) or coming back from one. I'm getting the feeling some people came back from work and heard about it...they would react that way. I just don't see 30 or so men and women at a time doing that.

However I believe both sides were wrong. I believe Owens should be sited for endangering the lives of minors and I also strongly believe that everyone who beat him up should be indicted for attempted murder or assault. But Owens plays a major role here.

[LanternWaste]

74. Most human actions are indeed, quite understandable...

Most human actions are indeed, quite "understandable" regardless of whether they are beyond our individual ken or not, or whether we sympathize with said position or not; e.g., it's quite easy to understand Robespierre's justifications and rationalizations re: his Reign of Terror if we simply apply ourselves to the relevant material despite the fact that we do not agree with nor tolerate his actions.

[obamanut2012]

81. Yes, it does make the action understandable

Please tell em where I said it was the right thing to do? You can't.

[Snake Alchemist]

87. You seem to give tacit approval with you comments on how it's "understandable." nt

[Saving Hawaii]

149. No. It does not excuse it, but it does make it understandable.

Unless you want to throw the first stone, holy art thou.

[Luminous Animal]

54. Why do you keep characterizing a 40 year old as an "old man"?

Is Obama an old man?

[Snake Alchemist]

56. I've already said I was wrong about that in previous posts.

For some reason I thought he was in his 60's.

[LanternWaste]

77. And also just a "crazy man who lives on the corner..."

"For some reason I thought he was in his 60's..."

And also thought he is just a "crazy man who lives on the corner..." I do however, understand that we often come up with pretenses which better validate (and often, imply too) our own perceptions and characterizations of a matter-- regardless of whether I may agree with or tolerate that characterization.

[Snake Alchemist]

78. His previous actions make it appear that he suffers from mental illness.

You seem to disagree for some reason?

[Kingofalldems]

83. Wow. Don't let the facts get in your way. Continue.

[Snake Alchemist]

86. Please illuminate me on the facts. nt

[The Magistrate]

140. To Be Fair, Sir, He Is Pretty Shaky On What a Fact Is, Let Alone What Facts Might Be In Any Instance

It is pretty simple to predict what his comments will tend towards....

[Comrade Grumpy]

88. His previous actions make it appear he suffers from being an angry racist asshole.

And now his hatred and rage got his ass kicked.

[Snake Alchemist]

90. So you got a warm feeling inside from this?

"A witness who wants to remain anonymous describes what he says he heard at his front door Saturday night, on Delmar Drive. ”I just kept hearing him screaming, ‘Man, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, man don’t do this,’ ” he recalls."

[Comrade Grumpy]

95. I think his attackers should be prosecuted, but I have no sympathy for this guy.

And he should be prosecuted, too, for brandishing weapons.

Spend your time calling people n****ers and threatening them? Karma's a bitch.

[Snake Alchemist]

97. Wouldn't Karma be of similar severity? nt

[Kingofalldems]

99. Why do you put words in posts that aren't there?

[vaberella]

68. When was it stated he had mental issues? When the fuck did 40 mean old?

I don't know what you're on about. Further more...if he had such mental issues...then someone would know to barricade deadly weapons from his grasp because he could end up killing a lot of people or in this case some kids.

[NCTraveler]

53. My parents would have done it a little differently...

"No, it's what parents do when jackass 40 year-olds pull knives on their kids."

They would have called the police and told me to never go around his house again.

[Beacool]

111. Amen!!

What was that, a reenactment of the villagers going after Frankenstein?

My father wouldn't have dreamed of going out to beat someone. He would have done the same as your parents. He would have called the police and told me to never again play in the street, that there are basketball courts for that purpose. Not that I would have been playing basketball anyway. I was more into ballet, tennis, volleyball and polo.

[vaberella]

122. Not my parents...My dad would have done something. But my dad was a Ju Jitsu sensei.

So maybe a fight was in order. Not to mention I don't know many people around my neighborhood to trust cops to stand up for Black people...so...

[NCTraveler]

125. If your dad was a Ju Jitsu sensei....

He would not have gone back to assault someone. Ju Jitsu senseis are not barbaric. It is used for defense and anyone who takes it seriously knows that. He would have realized at that you were home and no longer in danger. Therefore no need for self defense. Please don't paint people trained in martial arts as animals.

[vaberella]

127. Not if he saw the guy weilding two kitchen knives at me and calling me a N.

I think his parental side would kick in sooner than his more gentle side. Don't presume to know my father because he practiced martial arts. My dad was also a gun owner and an experienced shooter. He was skilled in many things and lived an extremely dangerous life during his younger years.

[NCTraveler]

130. I am not talking about a gentle side.

I am talking about common sense. You don't leave your house, where you and your family are safe, hunt someone down, and assault them. As I said, common sense for most.

[vaberella]

131. But that is not the situation I was talking about...was it.

You may need to read my post again.

[NCTraveler]

132. OK. Not sure when you started discussing something other than the story in the op.

That is what I was talking about when you initially replied about your dad using his martial arts skills to hurt someone.

[Saving Hawaii]

151. Common sense for most.

I know a lot of people with a lot of common sense.

A friend of mine is an ex-Green Beret who was dishonorably discharged and spent a couple years in jail for a crime he committed on LOA. I don't want to dive into details, but... did he commit a crime? Yes. Was his action appropriate? No. Would I have done the same thing? Maybe. Was his action understandable? Very much so.

A lot of very ugly crimes are crimes of passion. They are not things we would do as rational human beings. But we are very rarely rational human beings, even you and I. Any psychologist could tell you that. Under stress people behave in irrational ways. We are biologically programmed to do that. My friend was trained to all ends as a Green Beret to function under stress but even he snapped under enough pressure. It's human. That doesn't mean it's right but that doesn't mean it's not understandable either.

At odds with your father BTW, given the situation we're discussing here my preferred plan of action would be to escort my children's basketball games. That certainly changes the dynamics of the situation. If Owens pulls a knife on me and my kid while I am standing there, it is no longer a deliberate act of assault to bloody Owens up. It's simply self-defense. And I learned self-defense from some of the very best. I'm sure most martial artists could drop me without trouble but I doubt many others could.

That would be my preferred response anyways. But you know under pressure as a human being I can't tell you how I'd respond to what happened that day. I can tell you what I would want to do, being a clever and rational thinker. But nobody is a clever and rational thinker in that sort of circumstance. Dumb decisions are made. Crimes of passion occur. It doesn't mean that they are not crimes, but I am saying that they are and should be understandable to all of us.

[NCTraveler]

163. More than reasonable..

"escort my children's basketball games". It is still much different than what was being discussed. And I agree that we are not always as rational as we would like to be. I can still say, without a doubt, very few people with any sense at all would have left their home for the sole purpose of assault.

[chrisa]

64. I find it funny that one comment made in the crowd suddenly is being stated as the crowd's motive.

[Snake Alchemist]

69. Sounds more like an excuse to sell newspapers. I doubt the mob met up and decided to avenge Trayvon

this way.

[pinboy3niner]

71. The comment reportedly was made by one suspect as she drove away after the attack

Police continue to downplay the Trayvon Martin connection to the beating. But a neighbor confirms what his sister told WKRG-TV. The neighbor, too scared to go on camera, told WKRG's Lauren Vargas that they heard one of the suspects say "This is justice for Trayvon" as she drove away.

http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2012/apr/25/witnesses-teens-beat-ala-man-said-justice-trayvon-ar-1867603/

[obamanut2012]

84. Especially since law enforcement said yesterday that never happened

And that the Trayvon Martin case has zero to do with the beating.

[Rex]

91. Well now we don't want any facts in this case.

People are having too much fun pointing fingers and accusing other DUers of being racists (although no one has endorsed what the 'mob' did, like that matters)...ain't that grand?

[LiberalAndProud]

73. So we watch as the hate escalates.

Murder and retaliation multiplied

Stop this ride, I need to get off.

[coalition_unwilling]

75. +1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 - n/t

[Saving Hawaii]

153. What are you talking about?

I'm not condoning what happened.

All I'm saying is that it occurred for reasons very different from what the conservative blogosphere and FoxNews are trying to hype. Hopefully I can provide solid facts about this case to liberals who are discussing this story with conservatives who've been spoonfed by the hate machine that is the right-wing media. This story is far different than what they allege it to be. My bullshit filter caught it right away but I did wait for the facts to come out before I called them on it.

[Rex]

89. Oh so THAT is what FUSS meant?

And some here were working overtime to pretend Owens did nothing wrong. Nice try losers.

[coalition_unwilling]

96. It gives a whole new meaning to those posters who yesterday

pooh-poohed Owens' 'fussing,' saying their parents used to 'fuss' at them when they were kids.

[Bacchus4.0]

98. warrant signed for arrest of at least one person according to local news

http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/56/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/

[coalition_unwilling]

100. Since WKRG used the notorious 'fussed' in its reportage yesterday, you'll forgive me if

I wait for other sources to confirm this.

[Bacchus4.0]

101. absolutely understandable , I hope they arrest more than one though n/t

s

[Rex]

103. Whoever beat that man to a pulp, needs to be arrested.

That goes without saying.

[Saving Hawaii]

154. Some info...

The mob was estimated at anywhere between 10-35 people by various witnesses. Most witnesses seem to be in the 10-20 range and only one that I'm aware of suggested possibly 30-55. I'm guessing 10-20 is probably a more accurate count. It also fits well with another measurement that one witness provided that the mob came out of 4 vehicles. Assuming 3-4 people per vehicle we're looking at 12-16 people in the mob which is pretty consistent with what most witnesses reported.

This mob was a varied group though. Multiple witnesses report that it consisted of men, women, and even children. At least one witness describes the women being dressed in Sunday apparel. This leads into what police are saying:

The police have currently stated that they are interested in 3 suspects. It may be that they have more John Doe suspects but it may also be that they only believe three individuals were actually involved in the assault. I've discussed earlier how this appears to be a crime of passion. Suppose that your neighbor, who you've had longstanding and very serious problems with, pulled a knife on your kid and his friends. You and the other parents go to confront him. Somewhere in that interaction some of the more hotheaded individuals present snap and decide that this asshole is already past his last straw. And what happens happens. Most people were simply there to confront him and tell him that this was completely unacceptable. A couple went above and beyond that. It's consistent with what the police are saying and eyewitness reports suggest, but I don't know if that's what actually happened.

[pinboy3niner]

155. Police: Only 4 people involved in beating; 100% certain Trayvon Martin case not a factor

This is the latest local News 5 update:

"I can tell you this without a doubt, 100% certainty, that Trayvon Martin was not the motivating factor in this incident," says Cpl. Chris Levy.

Deputy Chief Lester Hargrove says investigators believe only four people, including Terry Rawls, were directly involved. They believe the rest of the mob just watched.

Police say the beating is the result of a three year neighborhood dispute between Rawls and Owens.

http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/56/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/

[Saving Hawaii]

156. I figured I'd misread the story somehow.

One suspect turned himself in and 3 more being looked for. All I saw is "police are searching for 3 suspects" or whatever the article said. Horseshoes, hand grenades, and as far as I'm concerned DU posts. Gimme credit.

[Rex]

102. Yes and it is just as stupid as saying anyone

in this thread supports what the 'mob' did, because they question what 'fuss' means.

So in this case 'fuss' meant - to use racist language and then pull out two knives.

Funny...that is not the innocent 'fuss' people wanted it to be so badly.

[KamaAina]

108. Theoretically, yes, you should call the police.

In the reality-based world, however, what expectation does a black man in Mobile, Ala. have that the police will believe him when he says a white man pulled a knife on him, let alone do anything about it?

[Liquorice]

137. This isn't the 1950's. Plenty of cops in Mobile are black. nt

[Beacool]

109. If that is true, then both parties were wrong.

Owens was wrong in losing his cool and the people who attacked him were wrong in beating him to a pulp.

How about either side calling the cops, instead of flying off the handle?

[Skip Intro]

113. If true, then he was surely wrong to do that, but it doesn't not

excuse a mob beating the guy nearly to death.

There is too much unknown about what lead to the beating, but the beating is the one thing we know happened, and I don't see how that is ever justified. It appears they specifically sought out Owens with a probable intent to harm him. The people engaged in that beating should be arrested and charged, and given a trial so that the facts can be established and presented.

Questions I have now are: if he flashed knives, did he do it from the porch while the kids were in his (his neighbor's) yard? Or did he run at them with the knives? Did he ask them to leave the yard, maybe repeatedly, and they didn't? The original story said neighbors claimed the kids refuse to move to allow traffic to pass. Or were they there momentarily and Owens just went nuts?

We've got witnesses saying several different things. The neighbor where Owen's was staying said he didn't think the knives were a factor. The kid says Owens flashed them. At least two witnesses say "justice for Trayvon" was yelled by one or more of the attackers. The police, from what I've read, say the Zimmerman/Martin case isn't a factor.

As with the Martin/Zimmerman case, let the facts come out, let the facts determine the eventual resolution.

[RZM]

120. All parties seem to be in the wrong, which isn't unusual in violent incidents

The guy has no business brandishing knives at anyone. And the posse that beat him had no business doing what they did either. Both sides should have called the cops and I hope everyone involved is arrested and charged with any applicable crimes.

[BronxBoy]

123. The Truly Awful Thing About This Story......

is that is exposes how our increasing polarization is preventing this country from really looking below the superficial bullshit and addressing some real concerns that affect us all. I must admit that when I first read about this story, my immediate impact was racial in nature. My immediate feeling was not that the story was bullshit but, as a Black man, I hoped that it wasn't true at all. Most Black folk in this country have learned early on that one verified story like this buries and makes moot a hundred Trayvon Martin incidents. And in doing so, it further deepens the frustration and cycle of mistrust between groups that is spiraling out of control today.

I couldn't sleep last night so I spent a lot of time of DU and read a lot of the threads which updated details about this story as they became available. As I read the threads, it became apparent to me that this story, at it's heart. is most likely not about Black or White. As Hannibal Lecter would say "That is incidental"

I really believe that at its core this story is about how this country has failed miserably in addressing the needs of our mentally ill. The picture that jumps out at me about Mr. Owens is that he is a man who has some serious mental health issues. He's apparently been abusive including physical abuse to people in that neighborhood, both Black and White. In fact, one of the quotes in one of the stories posted came from a White gentleman, who while not condoning the savagery visited upon Mr. Owens, said he was not surprised given the guys behavior. I think I read in one thread a story about how he had beaten up someone and broken someone's nose. So I think it's safe to say that he had some issues. He didn't deserve to get beaten within an inch of his life. But within this story, a deeper tale lay.

So I started thinking about what would cause thirty people, some of whom were described as dressed in their Sunday best to do such a thing. And given what had been posted while I was reading, I had no answers. Then someone posted a a clip of a young Black woman who was really venting behind this news crew that had gone to the community to do a story on the incident. And then I think, it became clear to me.

As I listened to that woman rage, I felt that there was a lot of pent up frustration of having to deal with this guy. She mentioned bi-polar and I'd bet a dollar to a donut that the residents of that community have probably complained about this guy to no avail and are simply frustrated. So then the story probably morphs from a Black-White issue to one where persons with mental health problems are ignored by government because of budgetary issues or simple out right hostility and a community unable to deal with the social problems of having an untreated patient in their midst. I wouldn't be surprised if residents have complained about this guy to authorities only to be told there is nothing they could do.

I have no idea that what I believe about this story is true. I am curious about what he supposedly was apologizing for. I really think he's a troubled man and I think he may know it too. But I guess my speculation is as good as anyone else's. But if it is and I suspect it might be, it just goes to illustrate how our country is increasingly becoming so polarized that we cannot peer under the covers to get at the real issues that affect us and would rather retreat to the safe confines of the "savage niggers" and the "crazy cracker down the street" to explain away incidents like this.

Under the facts as they presently stand, there is simply no justification for the beating of Mr. Owens. But I also know that given this country's abysmal attitude to mental health treatment and the ignorance is bliss attitudes that too often accompany perceptions of mental illness that incidents like these will continue to stress local communities to the point that they may unfortunately happen again.

Just my two cents

[B2G]

128. Awesome post. Thank you. n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

129. good post.

[coalition_unwilling]

133. Bravo! Please consider making this an OP of its own. It puts the entire matter

into a new 'frame,' one that all of DU would profit from looking at this story through.

Family members diagnosed with bipolar, so was immediately struck by how plausible what you wrote seemed, given that you might have easily been describing some of my family.

[Catherine Vincent]

145. Speak it!

As with all your posts.....

[Prometheus Bound]

152. Nice analysis.

[Judi Lynn]

157. Meaningful post. Thank you for writing it. n/t

[0rganism]

158. bravo! you win the thread

seriously though, a very insightful post.

[shimonitanegi]

160. I am glad there is less blaming on the victim.

An arrested attacker has criminal records like Zimmerman.
I was really afraid of Zimmerman apologist's reaction to this victim.

Trayvon Martin, a 17 years old kid with no criminal record and no deadly weapon was killed just because he looked suspicious.

Matthew Owens, a 40 years old man with a criminal record and deadly weapons was beaten just because he threatened some kids with knives.