Farewell to GM, from a factory rat’s disloyal daughter

[NNN0LHI]

http://open.salon.com/blog/laurel_not_lauren/2009/06/02/farewell_to_gm_from_a_factory_rats_disloyal_daughter

JUNE 2, 2009 10:43AM

It’s been nearly a quarter of a century since my dad punched a clock for the last time, but he’s still got his tools, the ones he used for 37 years in the die room at a Chevy spring and bumper plant, though they don’t get much exercise anymore. My parents moved into senior housing a couple years back, and if something breaks, Dad just calls maintenance. The only thing he fixes now is supper, a job he’s taken over from my mom, who suffers from dementia. Dad is 83 and, like his former employer, he’s seen better days.

Back when I was a kid growing up on the northwest side of Detroit, everybody we knew was connected in some way to the Big Three. The streets in our neighborhood were named after Ivy League colleges, but it was a solidly blue collar area; block after block of modest little houses plunked down like tokens on a life-size Monopoly board, most of them crammed to the rafters with kids. Every morning at six thirty, with the precision of a choreographed dance, back doors would open and men would emerge and, after hasty goodbye kisses from women in curlers, they would vanish into the steel jaws of the great automotive giants, only to be belched out again eight hours later, twelve during model changeover time.

“Generous Motors” (with the help of the U.A.W.) put the food on our table and the roof over our head and the money in my parents’ bank account, money that financed much of my education, supplemented by what I earned from my own well-paying summer jobs at my dad’s plant, one of the perks that went along with being in a GM family. My dad, the son of an itinerant laborer from Arkansas, was lucky to graduate from high school. I, on the other hand, like most of the kids I grew up with, viewed college as a birthright. I even tacked on three years of law school. Such a huge change in just a single generation, made possible by virtue of a strong union and a robust industry.

And how did I return the favor? How did I express thanks for my newfound upward mobility? I packed my bags, moved to California and, like millions of my fellow baby boomers, promptly went out and bought a Japanese import, which I subsequently traded in for a Volvo.

[madokie]

1. Its sad really

that here we are, those of us old enough to be old hippies, who were so vocal and forceful 40 plus years ago let our democracy slip right though our hands and with it the middle class vanished.

eta: changed second to middle, sorry for that big mistake

[Javaman]

3. It all started when the powers that be re-branded the people of this nation...

"consumers" and not citizens.

[madokie]

6. You know I think you are right

In fact I know you are.
I don't know as if it could be put any plainer, I don't think it could.

[joeglow3]

8. I am glad the author was honest and not playing the victim of the puppet

I will say it again: "we, as a nation, failed our automotive workers." First, it was because the quality was so much better overseas. Well, that has been shown to be false. Next, it was because American automakers only made huge cars. Of course, my pontiac sunfire and Mercury Topaz would disagree with you. Now, it is because we were look at as mere consumers (as if the Japanese companies look at us as "citizens&quot .

Jesus people, it really should not be such an ego blow to admit we screwed up. You do NOT have to seek out someone else to blame.

After all, none of this matters. It is not too late. Support your American made cars.

[madokie]

9. Two fords in our driveway

ford powered American made boat sitting beside them.
If thats not american then I don't know what is

[joeglow3]

10. Amen.

Never owned a foreign car and never will.

[madokie]

12. I owned a couple VWs

years ago but not again.

[Fawke Em]

54. Me either... well, not technically.

I drive Fords.

Hubby bought at Beemer and both our names were on the title and loan - you know - because we're married. I hated that damn car. In the shop all the damned time.

He got rid of it. Now he has a Ford.

[hamsterjill]

94. Me, either!

I'm a GM fan, always have been and always will be.

[Rex]

39. And then took it one step further

now all we are is 'human capital' to be spent by the ownership society.

[global1]

13. I'm 63 Y/O And I Made The Comment Just The Other Day........

that I'm really disappointed in my generation. In our youth we were so energetic and idealistic and look at how we turned out. What was the turning point that changed our spirit? What happened that made us so cynical? What crushed our progressive attitudes? How did we wind up with the complete mess of attitudes that we have in the country now?

Seems to me that this is fodder for a book on our generation. I wonder what people would answer to these questions if they were interviewed? If our parents generation was the "Greatest Generation" as coined by Tom Brokaw - what would they call a book on our generation?

[madokie]

14. Sad

I'm going through this myself right now. We knew then that we couldn't let our guard down because if we did this is what was in store for us but we let our guard down anyway. In a lot of ways this is troubling to me as I close in on this last journey.

[Romulox]

86. Greed is like a cancer--it hollows one out. I think this is a big part of the answer. nt

[postulater]

2. If Gm would have made better

Cars at the time I and everyone I know wouldn't have bought Toyotas,Hondas and Saabs (yes!) for the last thirty years. It wasn't our fault. It wasn't the unions fault. GM pushed big stupid cars for the profit instead of quality efficient cars.

[joeglow3]

4. I have always bought GM and never bought "big stupid cars"

Hopefully, you will someday be honest with yourself, just as the brilliant author of this piece did. We, as a nation, failed our automotive industry. Lets accept that and change course.

[JHB]

5. Stagnant incomes for workers didn't help any

Some more money circulating at lower levels would have changed a few decisions on whether or not to buy a new car, or what kind for those who did buy.

[joeglow3]

7. That doesn't change the fact that those purchase made DID go overseas.

Again, we need to step up and admit our failings instead of finding excuses. We have failed our automotive workers, but can still turn it around.

[Auggie]

16. But GM was slow to adopt change at it's most crucial time ...

late 70s and 80s. And it killed them. Americans didn't so much abandon GM. GM failed to keep connecting with Americans.

Imports created a superior, hip persona through their advertising that was light years ahead of stodgy, pompous GM.

Fit and finish were better on many imports and the vehicles had more amenities. I remember a co-worker showing off her Honda's cup holders and change holders in 1981. Okay, it sounds absurd now but it was building a big perception of value back then.

GM spent billions developing the Saturn Division in the 80's while basic engineering of the drive train and electrical systems in Buick, Olds, etc., went lacking -- a lot of those cars had recurring problems from flawed systems. My dad, who worked for GM for 35 years, had such a Buick. It defined lemon.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm glad to see GM, Ford and Chrysler start to rebound. But to say we failed our automobile industry is a stretch.

[closeupready]

59. Yes. It was the management who is to blame for all that, IMO.

Not the workers.

[WinniSkipper]

61. While I believe that to be true...

...the workers are victims of 'guilt by association' in the mind of consumers (not citizens as someone pointed out astutely upthread).

While 'citizens' may have stood with the workers - the 'consumer' is going to hold everyone associated with GM responsible. He may support unions, but a $20K lemon will change that attitude pretty quickly.

Because there is a contract (and one that always played out on the evening news) between workers an management - a consumer will see them as one in the same.

Not saying that's right - but that's how the majority will see it.

[Snake Alchemist]

11. Aw, the tried and true excuse for not buying American. Play it again Sam. nt.

[Romulox]

19. They'll be saying the exact same thing about YOU when your job is outsourced. Nobody will care any

more about your lifestyle, your children, your community then you care about ours.

[HappyMe]

20. +1

[badtoworse]

21. I have to agree

The two worst cars I ever owned were both GM products - a 1980 Chevy Citation and a 1983 Olsmobile Cutlass Ciera. The list of things that went wrong with those cars is a very long one and I haven't bought GM since. I did have 2 Chevy Malibu's that were company cars - a 2004 and 2007. Fit and finish on the 2004 were lousy and it did not perform well on the road. The 2007 was a substantial improvement in both areas, but I only had it 1 year, so I can't say how it held up. I have owned some good American cars (they were Fords - a 1968 Galaxy, a 1978 Mustang and a 1988 T-Bird) and I owned a 1996 Chrysler Concorde that was nice, but expensive to maintain (the AC failed 3 times).

We just bought a new car and it came down to a choice between a GMC Acadia and a Toyota Highlander. I was really hoping the GMC product would win because I do like to buy American. The Highlander had better features, better fit and finish, about the same gas mileage and it cost less. We bought the Highlander and love it. As much as I hate to say it, I think Japanese cars are still better.

[sinkingfeeling]

24. I owned one Japanses car for all of 3 months. Traded it in on a new Corvette (1986).

My 1981 Citation was still running well when I sold it in 2005. My 1999 Saturn gets 40 miles to a gallon and has never had anything 'break' on it.

I do buy GM.

[badtoworse]

75. To be fair, the Citation did run pretty well...

...after all the loose shit fell off. The four cylinder engine was solid and it didn't burn oil even after 120,000 miles. The 4 speed transmission had some sort of internal failure (wouldn't shift into reverse), and I didn't think it was worth fixing, so the car was basically junked.

The Oldsmobile was a truly awful car - I spent thousands on repairs and it never ran well

[eridani]

147. Yes! I got a 1997 Saturn used and have had very few problems

Still pissed that they shut down the division.

[Snake Alchemist]

27. That's why I buy all foreign goods.

Always better quality. Solidarity!

[A Simple Game]

37. "Solidarity!"? With Who? n/t

[Snake Alchemist]

45. Which part? nt

[pintobean]

49. Sorry, I misunderstood

I followed the thread wrong. We're on the same side. I'm going to delete that.

[badtoworse]

81. I buy American products when I can find them and I'll even pay a premium for them.

I'm not willing to accept an inferior product because it's made here though.

Between cars I've owned, been provided with or shared with my wife, I can speak to 12 cars. 8 were American; 4 were / are Japanese and we put an average of about 80,000 miles on each car. The Japanese cars were super reliable and never needed anything but routine maintenance. Unfortunately, I can't say that about the American cars. The list of non-routine items on the American cars includes things like air-conditioning (at least 5 major repairs on 3 cars), alternators (twice on the same car), power steering pump, windshield wiper motor, front end work (on several cars), replacement carb, radiator replacement (on 3 cars), a transmission failure and a blown head gasket.

I'm sorry if you don't like it, but that's been my experience.

[Snake Alchemist]

85. So what do you drive today? nt

[badtoworse]

89. A Subaru Forester and a Toyota Highlander

We just bought the Highlander about 6 weeks ago. We seriously looked at the GMC Acadia, but it was more expensive and not as nice as the Toyota.

[Snake Alchemist]

92. It's amazing that Toyota's numerous recent mechanical difficulties did not dissuade you.

Amazing, but not surprising.

[badtoworse]

96. The Highlander seems to have been pretty good since 2008

Time will tell.

[Snake Alchemist]

98. Your loyalty is obvious. nt

[Romulox]

87. I'm the same way--which is why H1Bs are so awesome. Better than Americans, and so much cheaper!

Love cutthroat capitalism!

[badtoworse]

90. I laid out my experience in Post 81

Maybe your experience with American cars has been better than mine. Would you continue to buy them if you were in my shoes?

[Romulox]

91. Not talking about cars--I'm talking about workers. I'm talking about *you*. nt

[badtoworse]

95. That didn't answer my question

Is there a point where inferior quality trumps loyalty to American workers?

[Romulox]

93. "replacement carb"??? Electronic fuel injection became standard in the late 70s.

Sorry you had so much trouble with your De Soto, though.

[badtoworse]

99. The 1983 Cutlass Ciera V6 had a 2 bbl.

[Romulox]

101. THIS Buick Ciera? "It consistently ranked among the highest rated vehicles by J.D. Power..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_Cutlass_Ciera

Are you even saying this is the car you owned, btw?

[badtoworse]

103. Mine was an '83 and it was the worst car I ever owned.

ETA: The Ciera was an Oldsmobile and I believe later editions (early 90's) were a lot better.

[Romulox]

105. Funny how bad things seem to happen to you in spurts, when others have such different results.

Bad luck, I guess.

[badtoworse]

106. There are such things as lemons...

...and they were more common back then.

[NoGOPZone]

120. There were cars, including domestics, using carbs

as late as the early 1990s. You can trust this link. It's wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carburetor

[4th law of robotics]

26. They got complacent

they made a fortune when American cars were the only ones on the market and gas was cheap and they assumed it would always be that way.

That and they shunned this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

Whereas the Japanese welcomed him with open arms (I guess they had more room to experiment since they were trying to rebuild from scratch).

[ParkieDem]

33. I think this is a big part of it ...

... this idea that inertia would always keep America on top, that things would always be the way they are.

In the first 20+ years of the postwar era, most of the world's capacity for industrial production had been blown to shit. Europe was devastated, as was Russia and Japan. Places like China, India and Africa were nothing but subsistence agricultural backwaters. The United States, on the other hand, was supplying the Allies' insatiable appetite for industrial products while facing little direct threat of invasion or strife on its soil. As a result, the war enabled our factories to become the world's most productive and technologically advanced.

After the war, the rest of the world was desperate for all types of goods. Steel, cars, trains, buses, aircraft, engines, just to name a few. The United States was the only country that could provide these things in meaningful quantities. There was no competition. Some corporate executives, union leaders, and politicians believed it would "always" be this way.

Of course, it wasn't. The only constant is change. Did we just think Europe and Japan would lay idly by while we were the sole suppliers of industrial products? Of course not. It was only a matter of time before they started making their own stuff, and then started to export it.

To a degree, this is an oversimplification, no doubt. Policy blunders and poor decisions were made, and all sorts of external factors impacted the decline of American manufacturing. But I think the immediate postwar era, and the subsequent remobilization of industry abroad, has a lot to do with it.

[snooper2]

28. Saab - ROFL

[HappyMe]

35. I had always heard that

Saabs were mechanical nightmares.

[Snake Alchemist]

40. Know why they call them Saabs? That's what you do when you get the repair bill. nt

[badtoworse]

78. Two of my friends would wholeheartedly agree - nt.

[Egalitarian Thug]

32. They've been pushing that crap for 40 years, and it has yet to be true.

The American auto industry's failures are due to one and only one factor, incompetent, hereditary management. They put out shit cars, decade after decade, and took all the money from the good years and poured into schemes to further enrich the parasites on top, while letting the company that made the money slip into obsolescence.

For forty years, every time I need a car I look at the American offerings first, and except for trucks, every time I end up in a Japanese or German product because they are just that much better. And all the advertising and empty promises in the world can't compete with actually driving the difference.

[Snake Alchemist]

42. Same for everything else. Foreign products are just better.

Solidarity!

[Egalitarian Thug]

52. This has nothing to do with solidarity, any more than allowing the companies to loot

the pension funds had anything to do with the workers that funded them. It is about America's parasites screwing everybody all the time and getting a tax break or direct subsidy to do it.

The bosses make the mistakes and the workers pay the price.

[Snake Alchemist]

56. Let's put it this way. You have two cars of near equal value. An American built by union labor

and a foreign car. The American car is very close to the foreign car in fit and finish, but is a couple of grand more. Which do you buy and why?

[Egalitarian Thug]

66. It doesn't exist, if it did I would buy the union made vehicle every time.

What we have is a cheaply made inferior design selling for the same price even as the workers get less than their foreign counterparts.

You keep trying to put the burden on the consumer because you know you can't do shit about the idiots and their stockholders that drive your company into failure trying to pay them exorbitant salaries and obscene returns. it won't work, and if the last half century hasn't taught you even that little bit, you are doomed.

[Snake Alchemist]

67. Keep telling yourself that. No wonder other countries leave us in the dust. They actually buy

domestic products with pride.

[Egalitarian Thug]

70. You have yet to make a single point other than that you've mastered the science of smilies. n/t

[Snake Alchemist]

72. No, you've made my points quite nicely. nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

76. Oh and you are wrong about that, too. Mexicans for example, build Chevys

but buy Nissans and Europeans buy Japanese in greater numbers as well.

But keep that winning manner, I'm sure you will have great success with it.

[Snake Alchemist]

79. What do Japanese and Germans buy?

Don't worry. We'll soon be just like Mexico.

[HiPointDem]

133. japanese cars don't sell that well in europe (& there may be trade reasons)

best-sellers in europe

2010

Volkswagen Golf - 492,556
Ford Fiesta - 402,207
Volkswagen Polo - 354,068
Renault Clio - 338,245
Opel Corsa/Vauxhall Corsa - 317,950
Peugeot 207 - 305,468
Opel Astra/Vauxhall Astra - 291,219
Ford Focus - estimated 262,000
Renault Mégane - 260,542
Fiat Punto - 257,645


Source: Automotive News Europe
2011

Volkswagen Golf
Volkswagen Polo
Ford Fiesta
Opel Corsa/Vauxhall Corsa
Opel Astra/Vauxhall Astra
Renault Clio
Ford Focus
Renault Mégane
Volkswagen Passat
Peugeot 207

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best_selling_automobiles_in_Europe

and to my knowledge, they never did sell that well, even when they were much cheaper than competitors. part of that may have been due to trade barriers.

but i think the mistake people make when looking at the auto industry is assuming that it's a competitive industry rather than a managed one, with lots of capital interlock.

2 mill japanese cars exported to US plus nearly 3 mill produced here.
3/4 mill exported to eu + about 2 mill produced there.

though eu has the larger population.

[Egalitarian Thug]

140. That's a good point and every nation buys more of its own than others.

I found the data on Europe and Mexico in an industry blog discussing this very topic. I'll have to go get it again when I get back. Europe is a difficult beast for the reason you point out, they protect their workers and make their manufacturers responsible for more than their bottom line.

[HiPointDem]

142. i'd be interested to see it.

just to be clear though, i don't think it's anythng so simple as "eu protects its workers" that causes japanese to sell better in us than in europe (where theoretically conditions are more similar -- small crowded countries) and price advantage initially would have been just as strong.

or why us cars do well in europe, but european cars do worse than japanese in the us.

japanese auto industry got rich selling to us. that was its singular success. whereas german cars didn't do nearly as well here, even though there were many during the period with similar advantages on gas-savings, price, and engineering.

it seems odd. and looking at the capital interlocks, technology sharing, joint ventures, previous existence of us auto manufacturing in japan, etc -- i lean toward more covert explanations.

[Fawke Em]

57. I beg to differ.

The German BMW (POS, is what I called it) was in the shop more than it was on the road.

My Ford, however, is now the same age that that POS was and the only thing it needs is tires.

[Egalitarian Thug]

60. I should have been more specific. We drive Mercedes & Nissan, and I have yet to find an

American offering that is at all comparable. I grew up on American muscle cars, my second car was a '67 Mustang Fastback, switching to the Japanese brands was not something I wanted to do, it was just the only move that made any sense. My two families fall into the GM and Chrysler camps, and I've watched for decades as they bought one POS after another that dies on them and costs them a fortune in major repairs, only to watch them turn around and buy another one that does the same thing.

A case in point, before buying the Altima, I looked at GM's offerings. What I found was that every one of the cars in the price range I was looking at had the same horribly uncomfortable seats, were all noisy and had a general slap-dash feel about them. And once again my decision was shown to be the best one as the GM's start showing significant degradation at about 30,000 miles.

Everybody makes some good cars and everybody makes some bad cars (don't go anywhere near a 2003 - 2007 Mercedes), but it is the people on top that make the decisions that drive their customers away and hurt their employees. To suggest that I have an obligation to support malfeasance and mismanagement so somebody can remain employed making a bad product is just not going to sell.

And why didn't the UAW buy GM when it could? I would have bet (by buying one) that the people who work for the idiots could and would have made a much better car if they were making the decisions.

[Snake Alchemist]

62. There's always some excuse. nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

64. No excuse, reality. My cars were nicer rolling off the showroom floor,

they were more comfortable, better designed, had better performance, lower operating cost, and they are still a better value today.

Show me an American made car that has the quality, comfort, performance, and cost I find elsewhere and I'll happily buy it, until then, you might want to look for something else to do with your life other than to spend it making another parasite richer.

Don't like it? Change it.

[Snake Alchemist]

65. Long live the free market! nt

[Romulox]

97. Union? I don't think so! nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

107. USW Local 711. n/t

[Romulox]

110. You know what? I don't believe you.

But if it's true, then it doesn't reflect well on you.

Either way,

[Egalitarian Thug]

118. You know what? Nobody cares what you believe. You seem incapable of comprehending

the not-so-subtle distinction between workers and the idiots they work for. It must be a membership of people like you that allowed what was once one of the strongest unions in America to collapse into the neutered management lapdog you have today.

[Fawke Em]

121. Did you look at Ford's offerings?

My husband's Fusion would kick the Altima's ass in offerings.

[Egalitarian Thug]

129. Yes I did but in 2007 it wasn't even close. The Fusion cost more, lower MPG, less power,

is smaller, cheap materials, noisy, etc. Today the Altima has 120K on it and it looks and rides like new.

I know it is anti-American to even think this, but workers have to realize that they have a stake beyond their paychecks in the companies they work for. When they see the company doing things that will end up hurting the workers, they have to speak up as fervently as any group of shareholders demanding higher returns. We talk about quality just as long as it takes to unload the inventory, the Japanese workers insist on it and have the power as well as the responsibility to make it happen.

Did you ever wonder how Honda went from making total crap to becoming the most reliable nameplate on earth?

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. +1

[Union Scribe]

115. There's nothing worse than a member

of a union asking for our support, who doesn't support other union members.

[Codeine]

141. Solidarity! Unless Consumer Reports says otherwise. nt

[Romulox]

134. Remember when you claimed your Prius was made in Oregon???

SOLIDARITY, otherwise though!

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. And I remember publicly apologizing for my mistake

You however don't seem to have much else to worry about.

Wish I had your life where I had time to dwell on what an anonymous person says on the internet.

[Romulox]

146. Your "mistake" was thinking that the coast was clear for more anti-Labor posts.

It's not.

[Codeine]

139. Because only your union matters, right?

Solidarity for you, but the blue-collar folks can get bent.

[Union Scribe]

114. Does that help your conscience? nt

[notadmblnd]

128. I've always driven GM cars and still do

Don't know if I'll ever be able to buy a new one again, but I have a 94 and 2002 in my drive. Both have over 200k miles and both are still running. Where are your Toyotas Hondas and Saabs? Oh and did you know, GM owned Saab at one point? I agree GM certainly did have some incompetent management over the years.

[meaculpa2011]

15. We bought our first new car...

in 1985 fully intending to buy American. Did all the research, read all the reviews. American cars at the time didn't crack any top ten list. Still, we were determined to buy American. Then came the test drive. No contest. We bought a Mazda 626 and had to look far and wide for a dealer that wasn't charging well above sticker price. People at that time were gladly paying the premium. Kept the car for eight years and drove it 120,000 miles. Then gave it to my sister and bought another 626. I rented a Chevy Malibu recently and would seriously consider it if I was in the market for a new car.

[Romulox]

17. DUers love to tell how "Solidarity!" and "I support unions!" doesn't include autoworkers.

This is entirely typical.

[Codeine]

143. There's more support for unionized sex workers than for the UAW around here. nt

[Romulox]

159. I don't give a damn what people drive. But to claim to be a union leader, as some folks do...

and then come here and advocate for non-union products?

I'll say it straight up: several of these people are trolls who get off on the attention: Oooh, you advocate for logically inconsistent positions? That surely makes you a fascinating poster worthy of paying notice!

[Romulox]

18. Also, pure comedy gold: "Is USPS the canary in the coalmine?"

I guess it looks that way, from San Franscisco.

Here in Detroit, the canary has been dead for 40 years.

[lastlib]

22. I'd rather push a Chevy than drive an import...

Seventy years ago, if it said Mitsubishi, we shot it down. Why change now? "Buy America" makes America work.

I'm also a child of a long-time GM employee. GM and the UAW put a lot of food on my plate. I owe 'em Big-time, and will repay. They make pretty good cars, too--250,000 trouble-free miles on my last two combined, and both ran like new when I traded for new ones.

[Egalitarian Thug]

68. You have that opportunity and are welcomed to it. n/t

[badtoworse]

108. I've done both

Driving the import was a lot better.

[CBGLuthier]

23. I have two american cars in my driveway.

Unfortunately neither one runs anymore but not through the fault of the the makers. The Saturn has almost 300k miles on it and the Impala about half that.

I just wish someone could come up with a really and truly affordable option. I can not buy a new car now for less than I paid for my house. Yes my house was cheap but that's not the point.

[snooper2]

29. Um, if you need an affordable option and can't buy a "new" car

that's what "used" cars are for

[CBGLuthier]

31. I still think the industry needs to create a cheaper product

6 years of financing to buy a car is too much.

and thanks for the advice on how to live poor. The last new car I bought was in 1980. I think I about got the poor thing down now.

[snooper2]

34. I picked up a $1300 1995 Nissan Altima on Craigslist

with 88K miles for my sister in law...

If you know anything about cars craigslist is the way to go....

For a cheap new car, Kia disposable cars are the way to go.

In my opinion, you are better off spending 8K on a used car that was originally 25K versus spending 8K on a disposable Kia or Hyundai

[FarCenter]

25. '67 LeMans, 81 Century Wagon, and '85 Astro Van -- I learn slowly, but never again.

And "in the die room at a Chevy spring and bumper plant,"?

Would there actually be such a thing anymore at GM? I thought they bought stuff like springs and bumpers from suppliers?

[Throd]

30. GM killed GM by making horrible turds in the 1980's

The Cadillac Cimarron is the embodiment of everything the American car industry did to sully their reputation for quality and innovation to an entire generation of car buyers. Most of those people aren't coming back.

As the owner of four classic Oldsmobiles, I can attest to the downward spiral of quality from the 50's to the 80's. In my experience, the 1973 Cutlass Supreme was the last one worth owning.

I love American cars and will buy another one if my 2000 Saturn LS daily driver ever blows up. The USA is making some high quality cars right now, but let's not rewrite history. American cars from the 80's were ugly pieces of crap and the damage still lingers today.

[Fawke Em]

126. Geez... that was nearly 30 years ago!

American cars have been surpassing their foreign counterparts for 15 years now!

Those of us who were taught to buy American have learned this and were richly rewarded with good cars that cost less to purchase and far, far, far less to fix SHOULD they need it (the last car repair I paid for was on a 13 year old Mustang).

I'm not counting maintenance (oil changes, transmission fluid, clutches and tires, etc.).

[Throd]

131. 30 years ago, but the damage still lingers to this day.

For a lot of younger buyers, American cars aren't even a consideration.

A lot of older buyers who were burned in the 80's may be hesitant to buy an American car again.

I know that GM is making good vehicles now, but for many people, perception is reality.

[Spike89]

36. American and union aren't interchangable

Seriously, the concept of "American" and foreign gets more confusing all the time. Multinational companies like GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota, etc. are, well, multinational. A GM car built in Canada using parts sourced from all over the world is totally apple pie in what way? How do you classify Chrysler cars from the period when they were owned by Mercedes? Hmm, where does Mazda fit in? They were basically owned by Ford, then a partner, now it seems Ford owns a small share. I drive a Mazda pickup, but it was assembled in the US on the Ford Ranger line (it is identical to the Ranger).
The real issue would seem to be the US autoworkers unions and how they got busted. A big part of it in mind goes back to the culture wars of the 60s. Blue collar workers were strongly progressive economically, but on many social issues, the rank and file were portrayed in the media (and maybe really were) considerably less liberal. The key issues of the 60s protest and counter culture movements were social, not truly economic. The republicans were never friends of the unions, but young democrats were not comfortable with Unions that seemed to support the war, weren't seen as agressively pushing civil rights issues, and quite frankly weren't seen as cool.
It isn't Honda, Toyota, or Volkswagen's fault we stopped supporting unions in this country. GM, Ford, Chrysler managements would all love to break their unions. It is the workers that need to keep unions strong and the workers need to organize in the US-based "foreign" car plants.

[Romulox]

38. LOL at all the excuses! I'm sure these same cop-outs won't be applied to *your* livliehood, though.

SOLIDARITY (otherwise!)

[Throd]

41. If I give my clients shitty service and they don't come back, who is at fault?

[Romulox]

44. If it's cheaper to outsource *your job* to a third-world hellhole, who is at fault? Nobody's.

Fact is, "fault" hasn't a thing to do with it. It's strictly a business calculation, and the thought that the same calculation doesn't apply to you is hubris and delusion on par with anything you can accuse GM of...

[Throd]

47. So people should buy what they deem to be an inferior product?

[Romulox]

48. Nope. Economic/social darwinism should rule our country. But that also includes *your job*. nt

[Throd]

50. I'm OK with that.

[Romulox]

51. That's what makes you so "progressive", no doubt! nt

[Snake Alchemist]

53. You don't understand. Blue collar workers or as I like to call them "the little people" should be

the only one's to suffer in economic Darwinism. That's why an H1B visa holder taking a white-collar job is so much more egregious than an illegal immigrant taking a construction worker's job.

[Romulox]

55. Two unions matter: Teachers' and USPS. Everybody else has to COMPETE! in a bloody winner-take-all

economic cage match.

And that's what makes us "progressives".

[Snake Alchemist]

58. UAW should have charged less for their cars. How can I be expected to pay 1K more for union labor?

nt

[cap]

71. Foreign auto companies are heavily unionized

Except when they relocate to right to work states in the US. Workers in their home countries would be appalled to know of the working conditions in the right to work stayed.

Your union bashing gets you nowhere

[Snake Alchemist]

73. You misread that. nt

[Ikonoklast]

119. I wish I had a dollar for every UAW member that crossed our picket line.

They crossed our line when we were on strike, and informational pickets at a non-union chain.

People I knew to be UAW members told me I made too much money working in a grocery store.

We were the reason food prices were so high.

People that made three times my wages.

'Solidarity' is a one-way street for some, it would seem.

[Romulox]

130. Based on your logic it was simply well-deserved revenge--grocery workers

were buying Hondas first!

[Ikonoklast]

135. No. you NEVER CROSS A PICKET LINE. EVER.

Unfortunately, the UAW was so self-centered for so many years they alienated a lot of other unions.

[Romulox]

138. Driving a scab-mobile is the exact equivalent of crossing a picket line. nt

[Snake Alchemist]

46. Let he beautiful invisible hand of the free market guide consumers choice. LOL. nt

[4th law of robotics]

63. So what, ah, should have been done?

[Egalitarian Thug]

77. Just can't wait to read the answer to this... n/t

[Romulox]

83. Same thing that should be done NOW--a cutthroat, darwinian race to the bottom in which

the only question is, "Who's next?"

It's the only way!

[4th law of robotics]

88. I understand that you aren't happy with the way things went

that's why I asked for what you would have done differently.

Snarkiness isn't exactly the basis for an economic policy.

[Romulox]

100. Um, dude. Things didn't "went". Things are *going right now*. You don't have it made.

That's what's so silly about this sort of discussion--people like you solemnly telling me about the worth of other workers as if the same comparative analysis cannot (and of course will not!) ever be applied to you.

And you tell about "the way things went" as if the competition is over. It's ridiculous.

[4th law of robotics]

109. Ok, so you aren't happy with the way things *are going*

What would you have done differently to change all this?

You're clearly avoiding providing a real answer.

If you have no idea what you would do different and just want to vent just say that.

[Romulox]

111. Dude, I'm racing to the bottom right with you! Yeehaaaaw! nt

[4th law of robotics]

152. And I think we're done here

[Egalitarian Thug]

69. So to be clear, we are obligated to buy inferior products at inflated prices so that

fewer and fewer of you can continue to make ever less money for more work. That sum it up?

[Romulox]

84. Not at all. But you don't get to push Rightwing economics and pat yourself on the back

as a "progressive" if you push that line. Nor do you get the right to any sympathy when it's YOUR job under the microscope.

I think that's where the disconnect lies.

[Egalitarian Thug]

102. First, my job was sold off by a Democratic administration bent on the destruction of our Sovereignty

in favor of global plunder and the race to the bottom.

There is nothing right or left wing about the demise of American auto industry, it was killed by a cabal of parasitic thieves and the governments they own with a huge boost from the unions themselves. Unions that decided it was better to shut up and sit down as their members were fleeced for decades. That selling out their membership for a big office and big salary was a better strategy than fighting for them with messy strikes and slowdowns, demanding that they get their share. And lastly, by the membership itself that fought tooth and nail to keep women and minorities out of their club and who voted over and over to bend over and take it in the vain hope that they would get theirs if only they just gave "their betters" even more.

The other one wouldn't answer this question; Why didn't the UAW buy GM when they had the chance? Will you?

[Romulox]

104. You should be applauding that. It's called "efficiency"! Cool story about your revenge fantasy, tho

There is nothing right or left wing about the demise of American auto industry, it was killed by a cabal of parasitic thieves and the governments they own with a huge boost from the unions themselves. Unions that decided it was better to shut up and sit down as their members were fleeced for decades.

Pure Rightwing crap rhetoric. "Egalitarian", my eye.

[Egalitarian Thug]

112. Revenge fantasy? Neither you nor Snake have any point to make, and now you're off

on some bizarre episode of "What it's like to live in my head".

Sad really.
TTFN

[Snake Alchemist]

113. From your own post

"Everybody makes some good cars and everybody makes some bad cars (don't go anywhere near a 2003 - 2007 Mercedes)"

So I take it you'll never be buying a Mercedes again? And Toyota has had numerous mechanical difficulties over the last few years as well so I guess you won't be buying from them either.

Here's a question for you: At what price point is a foreign worker more attractive than an American worker?

[Egalitarian Thug]

122. Probably not going to buy another Mercedes and I've always found Toyotas overpriced,

so no Toyotas either. Ford makes good trucks, but we only buy trucks when the wheels finally fall off, currently have a 1993 Dodge 1-ton diesel, and it only has about 200,000 miles on it, but it's a farm truck so it still has a decade or two in it.

Next time I'm looking I'll look at the Americans again, but I'm not ever going to trust their assurances that this time we really did build a comparable car as they've been telling that lie for forty years. You do know that Japanese auto workers get more money and benefits than their American counterparts, right? This isn't about the workers, it's about the owners and their motivations.

And why didn't UAW buy GM?

[Snake Alchemist]

124. And you do know that the Japanese have incredible nationalistic loyalty.

So do the Germans. Amazing how that seems to work for them. C'mon just admit it. GM could build a car that drove you to work, and made your morning coffee and you'd complain that BMW had better cup holders and paint color selections.

[Egalitarian Thug]

149. That's complete shit that you pulled straight out of your ass. I'm sorry that people don't

fit into whatever scenario you've built up in your mind, but there we are, screwing up your prejudice.

Now can we talk about the American airline industry? There's another monument to jaw-dropping mismanagement and malfeasance that has been committing suicide for decades.

[Snake Alchemist]

150. Hit a nerve did I? Tough looking in the mirror. nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

153. You really do need to get out of your head and out IRL.

Or you're a 12 year old that none of the other kids will play with...

Either way, buh-bye

[Snake Alchemist]

154. Go peddle those anti-union talking points elsewhere. nt

[Union Scribe]

117. What the fuck website am I on?

It can't be Freeperland, as my head isn't bleeding from the format. Yet here are all the Freeper arguments...

[NNN0LHI]

144. Believe it or not things have improved a lot here at DU in the past ten years or so

Ten years ago just about every post to this thread would have been right wing anti-union tripe. I am not exaggerating. See if anyone suggests I am exaggerating about this.

Things have been improving. Slowly.

Its a long hard fight but we can't give up. I sure won't. Not until I am dead.

Don

[Union Scribe]

116. No shit, whenever this subject comes up

they just line up to give their rationalizations that they've been recycling ever since the 70s. But if someone told, oh let's say a teacher that people wouldn't choose charters if public school teachers didn't suck so much, then they'd find their union voice.

[HiPointDem]

80. us gave auto market segment to japan on purpose. quid pro quo in return for acting as US

proxy & comprador in asia.

side effect = nice storyline to help break labor.

[JNelson6563]

82. I come from a GM family.

And I didn't suck a great childhood out of it and relocate to California and buy foreign cars. But then again, I know it's not all about me.

I couldn't be less impressed with this author's attitude.

Julie

[Tikki]

123. We will only buy American branded Trucks...

Why FORD is discontinuing the Ranger I'll never understand.


Tikki

[tabasco]

125. Multinational corporations are loyal only to themselves.

This is laughable corporate propaganda or the scribblings of an idiot.

[Egalitarian Thug]

136. Isn't it ironic to read workers who've been screwed and screwed and screwed some more

now trying to convince others that their company is the good guy and it's the stupid consumers, the republicans, those devious Asians, anybody except the people that made the decisions, that are to blame.

[SpartanDem]

127. K&R

Far too many progressives give lip service about supporting labor. They act as if it's a theoretical concept, if your priving around in Pirus you're not supporting American labor no matter how 99% stickers you put on your car.

[Romulox]

132. This thread needs a fumigator. nt

[badtoworse]

148. Suggestion for the next union contract

Why don't you sit down with management and jointly figure out what it would take to produce an American car that really is superior to anything foreign. I'm not being snarky. but you really do need to address that. There are lots of us (myself included) that that would love to buy an American car and would do so if they weren't worried about getting shafted with an unreliable and lower quality car. This has been an issue for decades and should have been solved in the mid-80's. I see it as a problem for management AND labor. Deal with it.

[Snake Alchemist]

151. Same with the American workers in general.

They should get with management and work out ways in which they can become cheaper and better than foreign workers.

[Romulox]

156. What's silly about you is you can't imagine someone who isn't in the UAW sticking up for it.

I don't work in the auto industry. What an odd assumption to make.

[badtoworse]

157. Not at all. I'm well aware of union solidarity

I just had no way of knowing whether you were in the UAW or not. Regardless, my point stands.

I've never said that the UAW was to blame for the quality issues with American cars. It doesn't matter whose fault it is. What I did say was that it's unreasonable to expect people to buy a lower quality, less reliable car because it's union made. Providing the highest quality product to consumers is something the UAW and management ought to work together on.

[flvegan]

137. Anyone else notice the link to a DU thread in the article?

[Zalatix]

155. Wow, what a powerful confession.

[Evasporque]

158. I made the change...from Infiniti to Saturn...

Supercharged and modded ION Redline....250 hp

SWWEEEEEEETTT!



mines Midnight Blue...