Some people should never be allowed to be doctors!

[abakan]

A friend of mine is in the process of losing her mother. She has been in the hospital for two weeks and is getting weaker daily. She is on high volume O2 to breathe, and today her so called doctor told my friend if she would "allow him to turn the O2 down from 12 liters to 5 liters, her mother would die faster".
I know when my mother was dying I would have done anything to stave off her dying as long as possible and if I had not I would drown in guilt for the rest of my life. My friend is already in a bad way, I hesitate to think what she would do if she followed his advice. I told her to tell him to go fuck himself.

I don't know what kind of heartless scumbag he is but I hope sometime he gets a dose of his own medicine with as much humanity as he shows.

[onecaliberal]

1. Geez

[easychoice]

2. You need to learn a little more about dying.

The Dr. is trying to ease her suffering.Check out death with dignity.Your friend can't stop nature and her mom deserves an easy passing absent selfishness from relatives.Sometimes it is time.

[VanillaRhapsody]

4. that is what I was thinking.....if the ONLY life I had left was languishing in a bed....

and the only thing keeping me alive longer was increased oxygen....I would want to hasten things along myself.

[GeorgeGist]

5. Respiratory distress is such a fun way to go.

[newfie11]

34. Not if the patient is comatose Nt

[treestar]

24. The Dr. needs to learn a bit more about bedside manner

I think the OP's point was the callous way he phrased it.

[abakan]

27. Thank you

Thank You...When I posted this I never thought I would have to defend myself or my friend. I am glad to see there is at least one person who understood the point.

[SMC22307]

60. "When I posted this I never thought I would have to defend myself or my friend."

Uh-huh.

Your name sounds familiar. Oh, right:

http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/10025231100#post121

[abakan]

64. You are still wrong...But by all means keep beating that horse if it makes you feel any better.

Last edited Mon Jan 19, 2015, 12:32 PM - Edit history (1)

Anyone who is interested in this persons claims about me is welcome to look at my journal. Sometimes the finger being pointed at someone is covered in snot.

[Mariana]

29. I didn't get that impression at all.

The impression I got, reading the whole post, was that the OP is angry that the doctor suggested it at all. The OP said nothing whatsoever about how it could have been phrased better.

"I know when my mother was dying I would have done anything to stave off her dying as long as possible and if I had not I would drown in guilt for the rest of my life."

[DesertFlower]

56. i agree. nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

3. Is she in pain though?

[abakan]

6. No she is not in any pain.

[VanillaRhapsody]

8. How do you know that?

how long have you lied in bed? The longer you spend in bed....the more you atrophy...and that becomes painful..

Would you really want to lie there like that on oxygen for as long as absolutely possible just for the sake of the children?

I wouldn't...

[abakan]

10. I don't think she is in pain because they have her on pain meds...

I don't know anything for certain except I will not make excuses for my friend and I will not make any judgments of what she chooses to do in this matter. What I will do is support her the best I can and help her when needed. If all you want to do is argue about who is right or wrong in life or death decisions made by others, I'm done.

[VanillaRhapsody]

13. there you go....there IS pain.....

you don't understand painkillers very well....its not that they stop the pain...they just make you not care you are having it....

I am saying....to have someone who is dying.... lying in bed languishing just because their children want them to stay longer...is selfish.

[Divernan]

14. You definitely made a judgement on your friend and put pressure on her

when you told her to tell the doctor to go fuck himself. What you did was project on her your own experience with your own mother.

[abakan]

19. she had already had her conversation with him

She said what she had to say before I even knew.

[enlightenment]

15. I'm sorry, but

you are making judgements. You stated that you did everything in your power to prolong your mother's life - because YOU would have felt guilty. You don't think your attitude is apparent to your friend? It is.

Supporting your friend doesn't include convincing them that their mother's doctor is incompetent. What you are trying to do is convince your friend to keep their mother alive - when that may not be in the best interests of their mother.

Clearly, you haven't come to grips with your own experience, so do your friend a favor and back off the opinions. They are not informed and they are potentially damaging.

[tammywammy]

18. +1 n/t

[abakan]

21. No I stated

I would have done anything to stave off my mothers death. But she was brain dead and was not coming back. I enforced the DNR.

And yes I have grieved every day for five years because of it.

[enlightenment]

38. The point remains.

Your attitude is that prolonging life is the best option. Look at your own sentence:

I know when my mother was dying I would have done anything to stave off her dying as long as possible and if I had not I would drown in guilt for the rest of my life.

You would have - if you could have - attempted to prolong your mother's life. That much is clear from your statement.

As a friend, you need to help your friend; not make this period of sadness harder. The doctor is not incompetent - you simply don't like what they are saying. Clearly, your friend's mother is beyond hope of recovery, so perhaps you should be helping them get through this with a modicum of peace and acceptance instead of anger and fear.

[pnwmom]

50. Your friend's mother isn't coming back, is she? Does she have any quality of life now?

Is she capable of speaking? Seeing? Hearing?

What kind of life is being prolonged with the extra oxygen? No one should have to wallow in guilt because they did not take extraordinary measures -- such as high levels of oxygen -- to prolong a person's death.

[dumbcat]

31. "If all you want to do is ..."

If all you want to do is argue about who is right or wrong in life or death decisions made by others, I'm done.

I then have to wonder why you started this thread? It didn't seem to bother you to be judgemental about the doctor in your OP.

[abakan]

40. The point I was trying to make is..

There are and were better ways to approach the subject than slamming my friend in the face with a sledgehammer. Beside being the person she called when this happened, I have done nothing to influence her choices. I said what I said and that was that she started looking for hospice care then. When I started this I had just gotten off the phone and was angry that some heartless sob would treat my friend in such a callous way. I'm sorry if you don't understand that.

[elehhhhna]

51. so sorry honey

Sounds like a heartbreaking call to receive.

[easychoice]

7. I should add that I posted with all due compassion,respect and sympathy for your friend.

And her Mom.
I have been there --- Miss You Mom...

[tammywammy]

9. I don't see anything wrong with what he said.

Many people do not want to prolong the inevitable. My own mother doesn't want any extraordinary efforts to prolong life. My mother doesn't want to be hooked up to any tubes or machines, so lowering the oxygen amount would definitely be an option.

You can't take your situation and apply it across the board. And the doctor said nothing wrong.

[abakan]

12. Then we will have to disagree.

[tammywammy]

16. You can't take your situation and apply it across the board.

[newfie11]

37. I agree with you

I've seen 90+ year old lady with an order for a portable chest X-ray when she was already dead.
Elderly patient with chain stokes breathing being given a shot to "wake her up" even though family members had listed their Mom DNR at her request.

Death is a natural thing that scares the crap out of people and its so hard to let a loved one go.
Sometimes that's the kindness thing you can do for them.

[Divernan]

11. Would YOU want to artificially draw out your own death like that?

Would you want your own loved ones to suffer daily watching you? Odds are great that the mother's quality of life is horrendous, but the daughter is not strong enough to let her go. If the mother has gotten weaker daily for 2 weeks, and cannot breathe on her own, with no prospect of improving, she is being kept alive artificially. You gave your friend an ultimatum based on your personal history. Her mother's experience is not the same as your mother's was. You would be a true friend if you'd have your friend immediately contact the professionals at her local hospice. I think their advice to her would be unbiased and reassuring. Hospice provides good grief counseling following death as well.

This incident is a reminder to all of us to consider what we want done when our own lives come to an end , and to execute an Advanced Directive, which spells out what lengths medical caregivers should go to, and under what circumstances. This relieves our loved ones from the terrible pressure of having to make a final decision.

[abakan]

17. I have my advanced directive

and all my wishes are with the people who will need them. What I want for me is mine to make and I have made it but this is not about me. This is about an asswipe who can not tell my friend in a humane way that does not sound like he is asking her permission to kill her mother.

BTW my mother was never on O2, she had a halo bleed in her brain.

[Divernan]

20. If that doc IS a jerk, hospice can run interference for your friend.

For you to tell her to tell him to fuck off because of his lack of sensitivity does not address the issue that it may be the most humane thing to stop artificially prolonging her mother's life, when there is no possibility of improvement. That needs to be your friend's focus at this painful time.

[CTyankee]

22. I've had the advanced directive in my will for a long time...

My mother at age 94 just gave up and stopped eating. She wanted to die. She had fallen and broken her arm and never really recovered. Her doctor phoned me and said it was time and I agreed and flew down to Dallas immediately. She actually rallied and I was beset by doubts but then just fell into unconsciousness.

She died very peacefully and gently and I had kissed her goodbye...

[abakan]

25. I have answered that question

And this is still not about me

[mcar]

23. Your friend should contact hospice

Languishing in a hospital is no way to die. Regular docs don't have the training in end of life care.

[abakan]

26. She is taking her home and hospice is coming to her house.

[mcar]

28. That's good

Her mom will be much more comfortable and your friend will get emotional support.

[Warpy]

35. She'll also get help with things like bathing her mother

but if her mother is incontinent, she's going to have to deal with adult diapers.

You get used to it.

My own mother died at home on hospice, my dad not yelling for help until she became bedridden and needed diapers. I wasn't able to bring my dad home to die, his illness was too quick.

[mcar]

52. My MIL was only on for a weekend

Because the docs kept insisting her kidneys were fine even though they were failing.

She got better care in those two days than the months before and died in peace and dignity.

[Warpy]

58. Yes, I had to fight to get my own mother on it.

The problem is that docs tend to focus on the most acute problem at the time and tune everything else out.

I don't know what finally killed her, the end stage renal disease, the diabetes, the end stage COPD. I just know she'd been begging to go for three years. It was hard to lose her but a relief when she died because she'd had such a horrible time of it.

[TreasonousBastard]

30. I have been in these situations, and the one thing they had in common

is that the people involved are torn.

End of life issues are rarely what one expects, and even less so when no real planning or thought has been involved. I've seen normally sensible people go to mediums and faith healers for some small bit of hope, and I've seen the agony of "pull the plug" decisions. I had to make one of those myself, and I couldn't advise anyone else what to do simply because they aren't me and the patient wasn't my relative.

From what you say, the doctor sounds insensitive, although I don't know if that's how he actually approached your friend or if that's the effect on her when he gave her the choices. Many hospitals have end-of-life counseling that tries to make the choices less painful.

In the end, we can't cheat death. We can put it off a little longer and we can make it a little less painful, but while modern medicine has performed miracles, it has also given us terrible choices to be made.

My only advice is to try not to channel the grief and anger at the situation toward other individuals-- It is entirely normal for your friend to be upset at the pending death of her mother, but if possible she should try not to take it out on the people around her.

[TreasonousBastard]

32. Oh. While I was typing that you mentioned she is going to hospice at home...

that is a good thing and hopefully will make things easier all around.

[Warpy]

33. Yeah, he stepped on his tongue

but when you know what's going on, that the person is fighting for every breath on high O2 to keep enough oxygen in her blood to avoid dying days or even hours sooner, it gets like that. If you knew your mother were suffering horribly with no chance of recovery, would you really want to prolong it?

Let her make her own decision, talking to that doctor's boss with any luck, and talking to the nursing staff who usually know what's going on, too.

You don't have all the information. Butt out.

[abakan]

42. I would not presume to make her decisions

but if asked I will give her my best and thoughtful answer. I never butted in. She called me.

[MohRokTah]

36. Do you know what you call the person who finished last in their medical school class?

Doctor.

Do you know what you call the person who finished last in their law school class?

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Your honor.

[99Forever]

39. You have your opinion and the doctr had a different one.

Seeing how as the doctor spent many years learning the medical intricacies of the human body and you've spent how much? I guess I know who's view is more likely to have more credibility for.

You advising this person to "tell him to go fuck himself" is rude, childish, and quite petty.

[abakan]

44. this was never about points of view...

It was about his inability to treat my friend with a modicum of compassion. Apparently something that is lacking all over.

[hollysmom]

41. I have to say when My mother was in the hospital and all the senior doctors were talking about how

normal this heart operation they scheduled her for was, I was rather shocked but curious to have the young inexperienced doctor come in and say to me, you know she is going to die during the operation or shortly afterward.

I asked why the other doctors were saying she would be fine and why did he think she was going to die. He stopped his quick run through the room, picked up her chart and went through it with me. He pointed out that she was too weak for the surgery now and if she lasted to the surgery, here were all her other problems, her kidneys were failing, her liver was failing, ........ the figures were all there, she had so many blood lots, nothing would get her better. I did not tell my mother when she woke up, but I worked my butt off to get as many relatives as I could in to visit her. They put her on extreme blood thinners, which only kind of worked, I had a doctor friend of mine come to the hospital and check the charts and the progress, he said there was no hope, the blood thinners were dangerously extreme and they were not working. My mother died of a hemorrhage in her head that destroyed her brain, but she had some of the best days of her life before that, I got her home for a few hours so she could do what ever. and kept her busy at the hospital with family and friends dropping by. I had not seen her so happy. I had major fights with my family who did not want to fly in to see her because there was supposed to be a birthday party in 2 weeks, and they had to change their flights. You know,none of them ever thanked me, but I still remember how much I had to beg and plead and cry to get them to do it. Getting my brother who lived 10 minutes away when he claims he just did not want to see her in a hospital, may he die alone, wasted 4 hours of my life trying to get him to travel those 10 minutes and forbid her granddaughter to go since it might make his wife angry if they had to change her dental appointment. oh, and I fell taking my mother to the hospital and had 2 broken feet and one broken ankle and could not put my feet in a cast since the most damage was my right foot/ankle and I had to drive every where, even to pick up people at the airport.

OH and I was so thankful to this young rude, crude doctor with no bedside manner who told me the truth.

Yes that doctor was rude to your friend, but sometimes, not always, sometimes it might help.

[Avalux]

43. I understand, but the doctor is trying to help your friend's mom.

I'm assuming there is no way she can recover and death is imminent. In that case, the doc can no longer make her well, the only thing he can do is ease her suffering, not prolong it. Docs get blamed for being callous and unfeeling, but the job requires they do what is best for their patient. The unpleasantness of death and the emotions of family members can be difficult to navigate sometimes.

I am sorry for what your friend is going through right now.

[KMOD]

55. A wonderful response to the OP

I agree.

[Ykcutnek]

45. That doctor lacks compassion.

Being the smartest person in the room is not enough if you lack compassion and other social skills.

Judging from the responses to your OP, people want to base end-of-life decisions solely on science. If we're going to be that objectively robotic about life and death, I guess it simplifies life for sociopaths... but real human beings have these things called emotions that affect these decisions.

[abakan]

46. Thank You for getting it.

[LisaL]

54. What is the quality of life for the mother?

Can she do anything at all?

[abakan]

59. Thank You for asking

She has good days and she has bad days but mostly she sleeps. I don't think her quality of life has been good for a long time.

[Fluothane]

47. Difficult decisions

Hypoxemic hypoxia is not a bad way to go. It is normal to feel the way you are right now. Often it is difficult for family and friends of loved ones to make rational decisions when people we care for are dying. It is hard to let go. I have ever experienced this myself. The docs and nurses of Hospice are good people who do their jobs well. While this guy might have come off a little abrasive.... he was giving the family good advice.

[Ms. Toad]

48. Even if the doctor said exactly the words you quoted,

I don't see "heartless scumbag" in those words. Not to mention that you were not present, so you don't know what the doctor said, or how he said it. Many people need permission from the doctor to allow a loved one to slip away - so the thought he was offering was not heartless.

But this isn't about the doctor. It is about your friend who is grieving the upcoming loss of her mother, and your own guilt at allowing your mother to die the way she wanted to die - which left you feeling as if you didn't fight hard enough to keep her alive. You don't have to dump on the doctor to support your friend and empathize with the guilt you know from experience that she might feel if she followed the doctor's suggestion.

[SMC22307]

61. Thoughtful post. (n/t)

[Ramses]

49. As long as she is on a lot of pain medication and is comfortable is what should matter

It does sound rather cold coming from the Dr like that, but as long as the patient has adequate pain medication and is resting comfortably, thats all that really matters. Hope your friends mom is pain free and resting comfortably

[LisaL]

53. Sounds like the death is inevitable.

The doctor likely thinks there is no point on prolonging the situation.
I don't believe that makes him a scumbag.

[DesertFlower]

57. when my husband was terminal (brain tumor) the

hospice doc asked if i wanted to stop the brain swelling medication (i don't remember the name of it). i asked if he would be in pain. he said "no -- he's on morphine". i said "will it speed things up". he said "it might". i said "then stop it". he passed peacefully in his sleep 36 hours later

[magical thyme]

62. Were you there at the time? Did you hear the doctor actually use those words?

Because one thing I have learned working in customer service is that the vast majority of people don't listen...at all. At least 3 out of 4 people, a simple attempt to bring them to a website home page goes like this:

Me: "do you see the company logo in the upper left hand corner of the screen?"
Customer: "Yes."
Me: "click on the logo. that will bring you to the home page."
Customer: "I don't see the home page."
Me: "did you click on the company logo?"
Customer: "I clicked on "manage my portfolio."

Add in any emotions, at it becomes 4 out of 4 people who are incapable of listening to even the simplest instruction.

In all likelihood, the doctor gave them options that would ease the dying woman's suffering. In all likelihood, your friend twisted his words, left 80+% of what he said out, or said something that existed in her head only and used words that he never used.

[Heidi]

63. I understand how difficult this is for your friend.

We just went through the same thing with our mom. Fortunately, Mom had made her wishes about extraordinary measures clear and put in writing that we were not to "stave off her dying as long as possible," even if we had wanted to do that.

It's an emotionally charged situation, and I hope your friend (and you) can find some peace of mind.

[AndreaCG]

65. Death is a funny thing

Before my mom got ill I was sure when she died I'd be in bed in a fetal position for months from grief. But she broke her hip and probably was destined for life in a nursing home. She had been in and out of rehab in them and DID NOT
WANT to be one of those people who spent their days parked in a wheelchair in the hall. So when she died six days later it was a great relief and I was not depressed at all. I miss her but she was much better off not living in those circumstances.