If President Obama compares ISIS and the Crusades, he's

[MannyGoldstein]

the wonderful, incredible, mature, and rational man I voted for.

If someone I don't like compares ISIS and the Crusades, they are sick bastards justifying and condoning ISIS' actions.

Any questions?

[Maedhros]

1. Sounds like an excellent example of DoubleThink. [n/t]

[AgingAmerican]

2. Some of the things I've read on this subject

Some really tortured logic

[pansypoo53219]

3. i just hope they do not get their hands on a picture book i have on the inquisition.

they don't need any ideas.

cutting the heads off is much nicer than what they used to do......

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. Who is your OP aimed at?

[aspirant]

6. Maybe the duality of one's life,

searching for the BALANCE in the Trinity.

[MannyGoldstein]

11. Some people's duality needs to lay off the steroids. nt

[redgreenandblue]

5. As the Romans would say: "quod licent iovi, non licet bovi"

K&R and thanks.

You're one of the good ones here

[Jesus Malverde]

8. Kick..nt

[Bluenorthwest]

9. Personally I took issue with your wording and with the history you were skipping

'A few years back'. Witch burnings were hundreds of years back. Hell, Boston used to ban books with interracial relationships or gay content through the 1960's but I'd never say 'a few years back your town banned books for racist and bigoted reasons'. It was in my lifetime, but much longer than 'a few years back' and Boston is really one of the more inclusive cities and has been going back more than a few years.

I know you are a big fan of the Pope, but just 150 years ago, while the US was just getting over being a Slave Nation, the Vatican had an Official Papal Executioner. Lopped the heads off of criminals who had been tried by the Vatican for civil crimes in the Papal States. The last man to hold the Papal Axe chopped 516 heads off of criminals, not 'heretics' and this is not 'Inquisition' this was just how they enforced civil law in the Pope's territories.
Beheading, ISIS, Vatican, Slave State, 150 years not 'a few years back' but much more recent than witch burning.
What to talk fire? 1978, Paris, Christian terrorists offended by Scorsese's 'Last Temptation of the Christ' hurl firebombs into a packed cinema screening the film. In the conflagration which destroyed the theater, many people were burned, several critically burned. No one died, but the intention was to kill and do great harm with fire, over religious dogmas. Very Hebdo like.
Obama did a much better job of it, because he included Jim Crow and Slavery. Skipping all of that to reach back to witch burning struck me as missing too many analogous events. And the 'a few years back' thing, very disingenuous when in fact skipping far more recent events. Why skip slavery and Papal Executions? I would not.
There are so very many examples. I'm not crazy about the Crusades as example, because most Americans don't seem to know about the Umayyad conquest of Hispania and the Caliphate ruling Spain and Iberia gong back to the 700's. Crusades, conquests, war answering wars, all of them brutal, all involving slaves and torture and mass killings. I tire of hearing about the Crusades as if they happened out of the blue, targeting people who had never invaded Europe themselves. Crusaders saw those wars as both religious and military and the Iberian conquests were seen as a reason for controlling those territories. So they did wars, we did wars, both used religion as excuses to do terrible things.
I think Slave US and Papal State Italy have strong analogies to Isis type rule. 150 back. Witch burnings have other analogies if we really want them, and they are endless and not very pleasant for the RCC to recall.
To me, when Christians in 1978 and 1860 and 1940 did terrible, Isis like things there is no value in playing with events hundreds and hundreds of years ago as if it was 'a few years back'. Because far fewer years back, many more analogous events have happened.

Precision is important, word meanings are important because it has always been words that have been used by Straight People to oppress LGBT people, by White People to oppress People of Color and so on and so forth. So when big fans of homophobic preachers play word games designed to gloss over history about such oppressions, I do not care for it. Your post seemed to suggest that one had to go back to witch burnings to find analogous behaviors in Christians. I understand that Francis and his fans might not want to talk about Papal Executioners or current events in Uganda so they might prefer to talk about the very long ago as if it was a few years back, while skipping Uganda, Executions, fire bombings and the Slave trade that served a Slave State, the US.
Uganda is almost entirely Christian. 43% are Catholics, 41% Anglicans. The Bishops encourage anti gay activity, the Pope says nothing at all. People cheer for him, meanwhile:

"This is what it is like for NGO’s right now in Uganda, as they are under attack. I woke up at 3:00 am PST, broad daylight in Uganda, to find this panicked note from an LGBTI activist:

“Jeeesssuuuu!!! Police and some goons just stormed refugee law project offices and they just carried away office equipment. Locked my self in the coalition office where they haven’t come yet… F’in hell! What are they looking for,,, things are breaking.. Everything has been thrown out… My god”
http://76crimes.com/2013/07/25/uganda-refugee-office-housing-lgbt-group-attacked/

Anti-gay Anglicans blast archbishop for friendly chats in U.S.
Posted on January 28, 2015 by Colin Stewart

The idea that anti-gay African Christians could be friends with gay-affirming church leaders in the United States is “offensive,” “unbiblical,” and “a tremendous obstacle,” according to hard-line anti-gay Anglican leaders in Africa.
http://76crimes.com/2015/01/28/anti-gay-anglicans-blast-archbishop-for-friendly-chats-in-u-s/

The Funeral of David Kato: How Uganda’s Leading Gay Activist Was Laid to Rest
"

Almost exactly 48 hours earlier, on Wednesday, Jan. 26, 2011, at about 2 p.m., David had been bludgeoned to death in his home. Authorities believed he had been hit in the back of the head in his living room then dragged to his bedroom, where neighbors discovered him unconscious a few hours later, bleeding on his bed. He died en route to the hospital.

Only three weeks earlier, David had won a seminal right-to-privacy court case that he had filed with friends Kasha Jacqueline Nabagesera and Pepe Julian Onziema against a tabloid called Rolling Stone (no relation to the U.S. magazine). Rolling Stone had reported that homosexuals were targeting Uganda’s children, recruiting hundreds of thousands of them into the homosexual lifestyle. It then printed the names, addresses, and places of employment of numerous people suspected of being homosexual, along with identifying photographs. The front page featured the headline, “100 Pictures of Uganda’s Top Homos Leak,” with a picture of David beneath the words “Hang Them.”
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/01/26/david_kato_s_funeral_how_uganda_s_leading_gay_activist_was_laid_to_rest.html

Gay and Living on Africa's East Coast
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-wozencraft/gay-and-living-on-africas_b_6572738.html


Right here, right now. No 'few years back = 450 years' is required to make the case. In fact your claim makes the wrong case and skips over today and the more recent past.

[MannyGoldstein]

22. Six years ago isn't a few?

NBC: African Children Denounced As "Witches" By Christian Pastors

Nwanaokwo Edet was one of an increasing number of children in Africa accused of witchcraft by pastors and then tortured or killed, often by family members. Pastors were involved in half of 200 cases of "witch children" reviewed by the AP, and 13 churches were named in the case files.

........

The idea of witchcraft is hardly new, but it has taken on new life recently partly because of a rapid growth in evangelical Christianity. Campaigners against the practice say around 15,000 children have been accused in two of Nigeria's 36 states over the past decade and around 1,000 have been murdered. In the past month alone, three Nigerian children accused of witchcraft were killed and another three were set on fire.

...

Some of the churches involved are renegade local branches of international franchises. Their parishioners take literally the Biblical exhortation, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

"It is an outrage what they are allowing to take place in the name of Christianity," said Gary Foxcroft, head of nonprofit Stepping Stones Nigeria.

Oh, and: UN Report: Children Accused of Witchcraft, An anthropological study of contemporary practices in Africa

You seem like a well-informed person, so I'm guessing that you knew this, but perhaps you didn't and instead chose to just viciously attack me without spending a few moments searching the Internet. I don't think it's about black lives not mattering to you, because you don't seem like that type of person. Rather, you seem like someone who's intent on attacking me and certain other people, and will twist, cherry-pick, and use sophomoric arguments to mount these attacks.

One final thing: even if the use of "a few years back" had not been accurate, and I had not written "For being 'witches' and whatnot", it would not change the point of the previous OP of mine that you refer to. The disgusting attacks that I received on that OP were crap, and it's interesting that the attacks quickly tapered once the news spread that Pres. Obama said essentially the same same thing after I did.

[Romulox]

10. You DO realize that Arabs occupied Europe for hundreds of years *before* the first crusade. Right?

[MannyGoldstein]

12. Perhaps because I haven't had my coffee yet,

I'm not seeing your point.

[randome]

17. Which is perfectly in keeping with your OP.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[MannyGoldstein]

18. Message received.

"as is always the case, if you don't see the problem, then YOU are the problem. In which case I have NO responsibility to explain it to you."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12773518

[Romulox]

20. My point is the same one the President was making, when he brought up the crusades.

We were discussing history, remember? So let's discuss!

[99Forever]

13. Ahhh yes..

... the good ol' "but Mom, he touched me first" rational.

[Romulox]

19. Um, it's the President who brought this up.

Not having participated in any crusades, I feel no need to make any excuses. But since the President brought it up, why not tell the whole story?

[99Forever]

21. Same old song and dance.

Start your "history" where it best serves your prejudices. But you've really got us all fooled!

[Romulox]

23. Again, the *President* invoked this history. That's hard to get around, isn't it?

[99Forever]

24. I don't give a damn who "invoked this history."

It's still the same old warmongering song and dance.


"Get around" what?

[Romulox]

25. You are mixed up. President Obama declared war on ISIS last year. We've been bombing them.

The same President who invoked the crusades in a recent speech to justify (somehow?) his continuing war with ISIS.

[99Forever]

27. I'm "mixed up?"

Uh...

... no.

[Romulox]

28. Well who are you calling a "warmonger" then? The guy with the power, who actually is leading a war,

or me, the guy pointing out some logical inconsistencies in the argument of the guy leading us in a war?

Maybe I'm the one who's mixed up, but the point of this heated (but unfocused) exchange still isn't clear to me.

[99Forever]

31. We know them by what they say and do.

If you beat a war drum, you are a warmonger. Period.

[hrmjustin]

30. Yes this is true. The whole thing was a mess of my God is better than your God.

[BubbaFett]

14. I'm more of an Inquisition guy myself

Hey Torquemada, whadaya say?

I just got back from an auto da fe

Auto da fe? What's an Auto da fe?

It's what you oughtn't to do but you do anyway!

[Chathamization]

15. Being right too early is still unforgivable, apparently. N/T

[MoonRiver]

16. Or, everything's relative.

Thanks for the great post and insight!

[jwirr]

26. I like what the president say. It was the truth. And I also think he hit the nail on the head when

he used the Crusades as an example. ISIS would probably agree because one of the things they are trying to do is get the "Great Satan" out of their land. But more important is the people at the Prayer Breakfast who are so angry are forgetting that our enemies are also part of Islam - our allies. Like Christianity Islam has denominations - some on the right (ISIS) and some on the left (Jordan). We cannot paint them all with one brush.

[JaneyVee]

29. Maybe ISIS would stop acting like stone age barbarians if...

We stop bombing the Middle East back to the stone age. This shit didn't happen in 1950's Baghdad. Now, we've created an entire generation brought up on war, surrounded by headless, limbless babies from US bombs. That shit might make people....a bit militant and resentful.

[whatchamacallit]

33. I'm...

with you!

[MisterP]

32. and if someone points out geopolitics, like the Crusaders and ISIS acting in large part to

show up Constantinople/Riyadh and quickly overtop their supposed sponsors, then I DON'T KNOW HOW I'LL FEEL ABOUT IT BUT I'LL FEEL VERY STRONGLY SO

[Liberal Veteran]

34. Last night on Bill Maher the refrain was "The Crusades were 800 years ago", however...

That is not all President Obama said. He also said: In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.

Jim Crow laws were being enforced 50 years ago.

Billie Holiday sung an iconic song call "Strange Fruit" about lynchings not all that long before that.