Somewhere in the middle of Afghanistan, there are the ruins of two demolished Buddha statues...

[derby378]

...that serve as a grim reminder of what is going to happen to the Afghan people - and especially Afghan women - if the Taliban is, as President Obama just hinted, ever allowed to take part in the rebuilding of Afghanistan as part of the new joint venture that Obama just presented in tonight's address.

Those statues were located in a valley called Bamyan in the Hazarajat region of central Afghanistan. Built in the 6th century, they were the largest standing Buddha statues on the planet until Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban, ordered them dynamited in 2001.

And I don't know about you, but I've got a nephew who's currently stationed in Afghanistan as a Marine sniper. I'm sure he's heard plenty of stories about IEDs planted all over Afghanistan by the Taliban, not just the few incidents that reached American audiences by way of Bomb Patrol: Afghanistan.

And do I even need to start on the abysmal treatment that Afghan women have suffered at the hands of the Taliban, who for the most part weren't even born in Afghanistan, but came from the Pashtun tribe in neighboring Pakistan?

One of these days, America must pull out of Afghanistan completely - but we cannot allow the Taliban to fill the void we leave behind. To do so would be, in the light of history and the eyes of the world's children, inexcusable.

[Daniel537]

1. Gay and emo kids are being murdered in Iraq today by Shiite militias.

Time to send the troops back in there?

[d_r]

2. I've seen them

they were western Buddhas. They were buddhas with Greek garb.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

3. the Taliban is going to win this thing, you know. They'll bide their time

But it's just a matter of time until we do leave. And when that happens, they'll be in charge.

[derby378]

6. Unless...

...we as a nation "gun up" and do something to solve the Taliban problem once and for all. The chances for this happening, however, appear to be diminishing.

The next option appears to be to give every Afghan woman a Kalashnikov and four 30-round magazines.

[Daniel537]

9. Why do we need to solve the Taliban problem?

Does the constitution state we must occupy and nation build in every country on Earth in order to stop groups like the Taliban from oppressing their people? Why not invade Myanmar? Sudan? North Korea? Iran? Congo? etc....

[derby378]

10. Focus

You know what the Taliban have done, and we all know what the Taliban are planning to do. For the love of Betty White, wasn't the Afghan government even discussing a law that would make it legal for Afghan men to rape their wives?

[Daniel537]

13. Would that be the same Afghan govt. we are propping up?

I don't know what you propose we do. Overthrow the current Afghan govt. as well? This cycle seems to never end.

[derby378]

15. Doing nothing is how the Taliban seized power in the first place

The government proposed that law as a peace gesture to the Taliban. There is much work to be done, you are correct.

[Daniel537]

17. So what do we do then?

Just kill Taliban members and count the bodies? That was the strategy in Vietnam. It doesn't work. Taliban isn't going anywhere.

[derby378]

19. Repeat after me...

The Taliban don't even come from Afghanistan.

[Daniel537]

22. So lets invade Uzbekistan? Pakistan?

What exactly is your point? How many humanitarian invasions is good enough for you? Define victory? How do you eradicate the Taliban? Should we call up David Copperfield and ask him to make them disappear?

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Maybe we can talk the Russians into invading, again.

I think that's how a lot of this started.

[Skidmore]

4. So what are you advocating?

Staying until we establish a Jeffersonian democracy? Do we exterminate the Taleban? What do you want to see happen? They don't call Afghanistan the "graveyard of empires" for no reason.

[derby378]

7. Afghanistan is now a graveyard of women, thanks to the Taliban

They are not the least bit interested in holding hands with Hamid Karzai or the Northern Alliance or anyone else for that matter. They do not believe in the concept of "my way or the highway" - they only believe in "my way."

[Skidmore]

11. Seems to me that this cultural aspect is beyond anything we

can address realistically.

[derby378]

14. It's not that hard...

Maybe we can't eliminate all traces of misogyny from Afghanistan, but we can eliminate the catalyst that drove such misogyny into overdrive.

[Daniel537]

16. We can't stop misogyny and domestic violence here in America.

What on Earth leads you to believe we can solve it in a foreign country where we are now viewed as occupiers instead of liberators?

[derby378]

18. You're kidding, right?

In America, women have had the right to vote since 1920. Two women in recent years (Geraldine Ferraro and Sarah Palin) stood a reasonably good chance of becoming Vice-President. Women can be found in practically every facet of American economy, government, and society as a whole.

In Afghanistan, you have one female commander in the Afghan army who still gets overcharged for groceries by the local merchant if she doesn't wear a burqa at his stall.

There's no freakin' contest.

[Daniel537]

20. You were the one who brought up the subject of eradicating misogyny.

Do you believe its been eradicated here in America? Same with domestic violence? Of course women are better off in the US in terms of political, economic and social freedom, but what you were saying is that we could actually use force to eradicate views in Afghan society, since that's where the issue lies. You're kidding, right?

[derby378]

27. Re-read #14 (n/t)

[Daniel537]

29. So how do we get rid of the Taliban?

Body counts? Just like in 'Nam?

[derby378]

30. I think we both know what needs to be done

If you've been paying attention, you know how the Taliban works, how they strongarm village leaders and tribal elders into doing their bidding, how they plant IEDs that kill indiscriminately, how they intimidate women into silence.

Americans have had some success in chipping away at local support for the Taliban - they're just going to have to do a helluva lot more of it.

[Daniel537]

34. And i refer you to my first question in this thread

do you think we need to send troops back into Iraq to stop gay and emo kids from being killed by Shiite militias? Because this is what you keep arguing, a US military presence into winning hearts and minds and using violence to wipe out a group that always makes a comeback. The Taliban has outlasted us this long, what makes you think 2 more years will make a difference? The goal used to be to stop the Taliban from helping Al-Qaeda launch attacks against the US from their soil. They seems to have stopped that long ago. As long as they don't allow that, why should we be the referee in a country we still can't even understand.

[Johonny]

33. +1

eradicating long held cultural views on women seems beyond the US ability. I mean we tolerate other more US friendly countries in the region that hardly have westernized views of women. It isn't even clear 10+ years into the wars in the middle east the things like the Taliban are one organic organization. Which is of course why the US policy is/has been to work with those people in the Afghan power structure that would work with the Taliban if they were in power, but are open to working within the current power structure too. This is because in Afghanistan there are people in the political structure in many areas that go with the flow because that is what you need to do to survive. To cut off point blank any interaction with these people based on the label on a door is the guarantee the current political structure won't survive. It's like say having a country where the legislature won't work on policy with the president in the government because the name on the door is another political party. Dysfunctional governance is generally a bad start.

[Scurrilous]

5. K & R

[quinnox]

8. Buddha never wanted to be a symbol of worship

as in statues of him and all that crap.

Anyway, as another said, there are tons of injustices going on all over the world, many right now in Africa. Being the policeman of the world is a losing proposition, and would bankrupt the USA. Time to let other countries govern themselves, we don't need to control the world.

[derby378]

12. That's just it - Afghanistan WON'T govern itself; the Taliban will do it for them

And that just worked out so well the last time around. Fuck 'em.

[DCBob]

21. I remember reading about that back then prior to the war.

I even said to my wife that these people are a threat to humanity and need to be taken out.

[Daniel537]

25. Should we take out the North Korean regime?

They've killed more people than the Taliban can ever dream of doing.

[DCBob]

26. The NKs are more bark than bite.

I dont think its worth the risk.

[Daniel537]

28. To the North Korean people they are definitely more bite.

So if humanitarian reasons is enough to justify a continuing occupation in Afghanistan, why not North Korea?

[DCBob]

35. not worth it.

The Taliban are a bigger threat to the world.

[Daniel537]

36. A bigger threat to the world?

Seriously? In what way? They barely have 80s Toyota pick-ups to drive around in and rusty Soviet AKs for weaponry. They are a joke in terms of military "power".

[DCBob]

40. They are and its been proven by their association with AQ.

The NKs have been threatening for decades to destroy South Korea and the US but nothing.

[Enrique]

23. if that's the goal,then we've lost

but it's not the goal, it's our longest war and we are not making progress, no one believes we can make that government self-sustaining. All the deaths on both sides until we finally end the war will be in vain.

[Warpy]

31. The Taliban are a large and organized body

and trying to exclude them completely is unrealistic.

Afghanistan has been a pit for women for millennia. That doesn't excuse it, but it is ingrained into the culture the way it has been in Saudi Arabia. For most women, the evil is somewhat ameliorated by family, something explained by an Afghan coworker during the first days of the war. The other women are the ones we hear about frequently.

What we and our Afghan sisters have to hope for is that the Taliban have been mellowed by age and experience, that they also have daughters and will not be as harsh as they were in the 90s. Another thing is that people remember how harsh they were and won't be as willing to turn everything over to them. They will be checked by more secular Afghans.

No, I don't want to abandon my Afghan sisters. However, the days of the US being able to do any good over there via the military are long over. The longer we stay, the worse it will get.

[cali]

32. It grieves me to say that your post exhibits a common lack of knowledge

about the state of things in Afghanistan- and that includes how women are faring. If you think it's only the Taliban, you're sadly mistaken. Afghanistan still imprisons women for being raped or the "crime" of immodesty. Honor killings are common. Might things get worse for women when we leave? Sure that's possible, but thinking that things are OK for women there, is just misbegotten.

I suggest you read the story at the link- NPR ran it tonight, and read the other stories linked at the bottom of this one:

http://www.npr.org/2012/05/01/151768550/facing-death-afghan-girl-runs-to-u-s-military

Yes, this one girl saved, but most aren't.

[derby378]

37. When did I ever say things were now "OK" for women in Afghanistan?

I understand where you're coming from, but come on.

[cali]

38. I'm just saying your op is pie in the sky stuff

I wish it weren't.

But it is.

[longship]

39. The Bamyam Buddhas were not destroyed by atheists.

I sincerely apologize for high jacking this thread. However, as an atheist, I cannot let this topic go without a comment.

I think that many atheists, myself included, have a purient dislike for desecration. Human history is full of inspirations which transcends any philosophy. Bach, Michaelangelo, and the artists who constructed the Bamyam Buddhas, all had inspirations which atheists and theists alike have to admit that the human mind often has inspirations which, although not explicitly explainable, nevertheless illustrates something deep.

As an atheist, I attribute this to how the brain functions, and there is considerable research to support this hypothesis.

A particular conversation which focuses particularly on these topics is when Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris got together at Hitchens' home in DC and discussed these very topics. If you have not seen this, you should. Google four horsemen video and you'll find it, two hours of revelation about modern atheism.

BTW, indeed, Hitchens smokes and drinks scotch on ice throughout. Dennett seems to like a martini. And yes, Hitchens attempts to high jack the conversation more than once. Harris tries to ground it. My favorites are Dennett and Hitchens, who both seem to figure out what it's all about. It is a great conversation. Highly recommended for atheists and theists together, with the emphasis on together.

[Odin2005]

41. I don't think there is anything we can do.

The Pashtun people are almost the stereotype of the patriarchal warrior tribal culture, and they have infused that Patriarchal crap with their Muslim faith. They are the last "barbarian" people, the only one left that has not submitted to a centralized state (Afghanistan has never been a centralized state in the modern sense and Pakistan's control of their Pashtun areas is pretty much in name only). They outlasted Britain, they outlasted the Russians, and they will outlast us.

EDIT:

The Taliban cannot be disassociated from the Pashtun people, destroying the Taliban would require either genocide or a brutal police state.