Should sex-segregated swimming hours be established in public pools?

[pnwmom]

Should Muslim swimwear be required in segregated sessions in public pools?


In France, Sarkozy and Hollande, the Socialist candidate for President, agree this is wrong.

In England, it’s happening in pools around the country.

In Switzerland, a court has ruled that Muslim parents can be fined for refusing to let their children participate in required swimming classes (based on modesty concerns).


What should public pools in the U.S. do? Or is this already happening here?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=151833172

Hollande, meanwhile, took a similar position to Sarkozy — and an unusually firm one for a leftist in France — when it came to special treatment for France's large Muslim community.
He said he would not allow separate menus in public cafeterias or separate hours in swimming pools for men and women to satisfy Muslims' demands, and also said he would firmly support France's ban on the face-covering Islamic veils.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/6034706/Swimmers-are-told-to-wear-burkinis.html

Under the rules, swimmers – including non-Muslims – are barred from entering the pool in normal swimming attire.

Instead they are told that they must comply with the "modest" code of dress required by Islamic custom, with women covered from the neck to the ankles and men, who swim separately, covered from the navel to the knees.

SNIP

But across the UK municipal pools are holding swimming sessions specifically aimed at Muslims, in some case imposing strict dress codes.

Croydon council in south London runs separate one-and-a half-hour swimming sessions for Muslim men and women every Saturday and Sunday at Thornton Heath Leisure Centre.

http://www.thelocal.ch/2949/20120327/

A Muslim family in Basel has been fined 1,400 francs ($1,550) for refusing to let its daughters participate in mixed swimming classes.

The family had sought to avoid paying the fine on the grounds that the requirement for the girls to join the swimming lesson infringed on their religious freedom, online news website Le Matin reported.

The parents argued that, in accordance with the teachings of the Koran, they wanted to instil a sense of shame in their children before they reached puberty. Mixed swimming lessons in primary school, the family claimed, would be incompatible with such an aim.

[Drale]

1. No religious rules should not and will not be forced on to anyone,

I will not follow such a rule if they try and enforce crap like this in the US.

[Ilsa]

2. I'm not opposed to having

hours of opportunity to swim with only your own gender, but not because of Islamic tradition. I think some women might be interested in swimming only with other women.

These other accommodations for swim apparel are ridiculous, IMO. I don't want to swim in a dress or with fabric on my arms.

I see no reason to push for these accommodations in public facilities.

[pnwmom]

4. I can't understand why they want both segregated swimming

and "modest" swimwear.

And I don't support either "accommodation" in public facilities for religious reasons.

[XemaSab]

35. I'm fine with the idea of segregated swimming

but not modest swimwear for everyone.

If the issue here was that traditional tank-style bathing suits should be worn and that people who wanted to wear more were not allowed to do so, then I would support allowing people to wear more if they so chose, but not the other way around.

Modesty is a personal issue and should not be forced on other people.

[Codeine]

33. But women would be, justifiably, pissed at the notion of men-only hours.

Screw all that nonsense. It's the 21st century and people need to get with the program.

[eShirl]

45. Why not set aside a few women-only *and* men-only hours for anyone interested?

Nobody has to go if it upsets their 21st century sensibilities.

[Codeine]

56. Because that's Victorian bullpuckey. nt

[riderinthestorm]

57. Why do they have to go if it upsets their medieval sensibilities? Afterall, it IS the 21st centurynt

[hifiguy]

3. Hollande and Sarkozy are right.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do" is always good advice.

[DFab420]

5. Ridiculous. Keep your religion, whatever religion it is. Out of my secular life. Can't go in mixed

gender pools?

Tough shit, no swimming for you then.

Public pools, public rules...

[trof]

6. In Munich I had to wear a bathing cap at the Hilton pool. Nothing else.

Nude swimming is fine at schwimbads (sp?).
Bathing suit optional.
I was a young man, full of piss and vinegar, and thought "NEKKID? YEAH!!!"

After the mandatory shower I was on the way to the pool and the attendant handed me a schwimbad kap.
"It is REQUIRED. To keep the hair out of the pool filter."
"Uh...what about the 'other' hair?"
shrug


It was white latex and the dumbest looking thing I've ever put on my head.
Oh...and I was the ONLY one in the pool.

[NC_Nurse]

7. No.

[Dawson Leery]

8. No. Religious rules are the inferior to civil law.

[SoCalDem]

9. If "special" rules are "necessary", Muslim communities should build their own pools

PUBLIC pools should NOT be required to or even ASKED to accommodate religious dress codes.

PUBLIC means PUBLIC...using the accepted PUBLIC norms.

It's not a majority v minority issue either. Secular governments are necessarily "broad", in order to accommodate the many. If there are a "few" whose religious views are so contrary to the "norm", they are the ones who have to choose whether to relax their "old-world" views, or make their own accommodations within their strict community.

If required swimming lessons are an issue for muslim parents, then they should be offered waivers to sign, if they prefer to have their children drown.

[oberliner]

21. Columbia Association to hold woman-only swim times

Need grew from county's Muslim community

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-11-16/news/bs-md-ho-columbia-female-swim-20111108_1_muslim-community-ibrahim-hooper-council-on-american-islamic-relations

[Blue_Tires]

41. exactly...

[redqueen]

44. +1

[Zorra]

10. "they wanted to instil a sense of shame in their children before they reached puberty"

I find that almost as sociopathic as forced ritualized female genital mutilation.

I'm all for diversity and religious freedom. I'm also all for sanity, reason, common sense, and, above all, kind and humane treatment of all children.

When someone's superstitious rites involve institutionalized hatred and/or committing perverted, ritual acts of cruelty and abuse against innocent children, governments need to step in and protect the children.

All bets are of if you are too crazy to be able to understand that you must treat your children like the human beings that they are, and to not psychologically torture and bullhook them into zombiesque submission like abused circus elephants.

Children are not chattel, not the exclusive property of their parents, subject to abuse and cruelty at their leisure and according to the dictates of their insane beliefs.

[hifiguy]

42. +1. nt

[riderinthestorm]

58. I know. That part really jumped out at me as well. +1 nt

[A HERETIC I AM]

59. Re: your last paragraph....wanna bet?

There is a HUGE number of people in this country, never mind predominately Muslim ones ( or segments of various European countries). Who think EXACTLY that way. Witness recent education legislation in Tennessee .

[Nye Bevan]

11. Screw that. This is America.

If people want segregated swimming they can move to Saudi Arabia.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. There are people on this board who advocate outlawing pancakes but want "tolerance" for FGM.

My favorite was the group that fell all over themselves to apologize for the guy in France who attacked his wife's doctor in the labor & delivery room because he tried to take off her burqa for the delivery of a baby.

[TedBronson]

12. Private pool? Go nuts...

Public pool? no way...

[4th law of robotics]

13. There are plenty of places that still view women as evil and shameful

so perhaps if that's your thing move to one of those places.

You won't get all the perks of a civilized society but at least you won't have to worry about your daughter being seen in a bathing suit by a male.

[guitar man]

14. Fuck that

Public pool , public rules. Your swimwear can be as "modest" as you like, but don't force it on others. If you don't like what everyone else is wearing, go the hell home.

[David__77]

15. I am opposed to gender segregation of public institutions or facilities.

I would only carve out an exception for changing rooms or restrooms, but under no other circumstances. I certainly wouldn't characterize bowing to religious, reactionary gender segregation as a "leftist" position. Quite the contrary. France - on the left and right - is largely united is preserving its secular character.

[Speck Tater]

16. People who have goofy rules are free to build their own pools.

Imposing religious rules on non-religious people is just wrong.

[RevStPatrick]

17. There's a public swimming pool near my house...

...here in Brooklyn. It's an indoor pool, open year round.
A few years ago I thought about joining, thinking that I might like to swim laps in the morning before work. I went there one morning to check it out and join, but they wouldn't let me in, because it was "Ladies Swim" time. They do that 3 mornings a week.

http://www.nycgovparks.org/facilities/recreationcenters/B085#programs

Those are the hours they close the pool to men, so that the Orthodox Jewish women can swim. There's a large Hasidic community in the neighborhood, and they got this in the pool's schedule.

Should this be OK?
I think it's OK.

I wasn't offended by that. I didn't join the pool, partly because I wouldn't have been able to swim during the hours I wanted to swim. But mostly because just from standing in the lobby for 2 minutes, my eyes burned from all the chlorine. I could only imagine what it would have been like to actually be in the water...

[pnwmom]

20. Would you be offended by public busses that require women to sit in the back

as they do in Israel, to avoid offending the sensibilities of Orthodox men?

And what about the pools in England that have not only instituted segregated swim hours, but require all swimmers to wear Muslim swimwear during those hours? If a woman wanted to swim with only women, should she be required to wear swimwear from her head to her knees?

[RevStPatrick]

25. As NYCLiberal says below:

"...there is such a thing as reasonable accommodation..."

I think in the case of my local pool, closing it to men 4 times a week for a couple of hours is reasonable. Although, it was one of the reasons why I didn't join.

What's reasonable?
One person's reasonable is another person's outrage.
Where's the line?
I think it's different for different people.
And that's one of the challenges of living in a society.
It's tough sometimes.

I don't mind saying that I have a few problems with the local Hasidic community. Many around here do. But frankly, the pool thing is probably the only tangible thing that has affected me personally. And I'm not terribly bothered by it. I could have gone swimming a couple of hours later, but chose not to. I don't know what would happen if a bunch of the local hipster chicks went during the "Ladies Swim" wearing thing bikinis. Would they be asked to cover up? I don't know.

Civilization can be annoying sometimes...

[HiPointDem]

30. funny that we do this in the us (my ymca has ladies swims, though not because of religious pressure)

& no one seems to get too outraged about it.

[4th law of robotics]

46. If it's a public pool no that's not ok

Public means everyone is paying for it. Hasidic Jews and gentiles, men and women.

[kestrel91316]

64. If there is sufficient community demand to warrant segregated hours for women, I am actually

ok with that. There should probably be an equivalent number of hours set aside for only men.

But requiring that anyone not a member of a certain religion dress like they are a member of that religion, that's beyond the pale.

For the record, no one advocates such a thing in the US that I know of......

[eShirl]

47. +1

[NYC Liberal]

19. Absolutely not. People are free to practice their religion, but they are not free to force it on

everyone else. Yes, there is such a thing as reasonable accommodation, but this is not reasonable in the least.

[Warren DeMontague]

22. We can't even afford to have normal fucking PE in public schools in this country

I doubt there's much danger of mandatory swim lessons.

[Mariana]

37. The school I went to for 4th, 5th, and 6th grade

had an indoor pool and we had mandatory swimming lessons. That was our PE for half of each year. As far as the expense, I bet the town made money on the pool, because they opened it in the evenings and charged a quarter to get in (this was in the 1970's). The public loved it. My family went a couple of nights a week, and it was always busy.

I think the main reason PE in any form is being done away with is that it cuts into the time they can spend drilling the kids for the NCLB tests. But that's another thread.

[oberliner]

23. This already exists in some parts of the US

Here's one article about it:

http://www.sodahead.com/living/learning-to-swim-for-muslim-women-in-us-its-not-easy/blog-35362/?postId=405240&page=1

[pnwmom]

26. Thanks. I was wondering . . . .

[hunter]

27. I have to wear a swimsuit at U.S.A. public pools and beaches.

It's just a matter of degree, fundamentalist Christians and Muslims have zero tolerance for public nudity.

[RZM]

29. This isn't a discussion about nudity

It's about sex segregation at swimming pools.

[HiPointDem]

31. it's a discussion of what appropriate swimwear is. some people say none. some people say

bloomers and leggings.

sexes are already segregated at lots of public pools. my local y has ladies' swim times, women only. they get public funding.

[eShirl]

48. I'm fine with leaving the decision of what is appropriate swimwear up to the individual.

I'd cover myself with a swimdress and leggings (if I could find any), but I'm fine with the people next to me wearing whatever or nothing. However you're most comfortable.

[Egalitarian Thug]

38. I find these "issues" hilarious. Watching people simultaneously express

outrage at the idea of imposing religious practices in a public setting, while defending the existing religious practices that have been imposed in public settings.

[HiPointDem]

50. +1

[Freddie Stubbs]

52. Not at all of them:

[lynne]

28. Absolutely not. Anyone needing different rules for religious reasons -

- are more than welcome to build and operate their own private pool. They can then determine dress and sex of those using their private facilities.

[RZM]

32. While I believe in respecting/accomdodating religious beliefs

There has to be a line somewhere. I'm not sure exactly where that line is, but I get the feeling that wherever it is, this is definitely over it, at least at public pools. I think this would be fine at a private pool. But I'm not comfortable with it at public pools.

[LeftyMom]

34. I don't see why they couldn't rent the pool when it's normally closed.

When I was in school we used to be able to do that for parties, I can't imagine why a community group couldn't do the same thing. So if the pool opens at 10 am, if they wanted to pay for the staffing and electricity and whatever to open the pool up an hour and a half earlier for the super modest gender segregated swim session, I don't see why that would be an issue.


OTOH, I wouldn't approve of excluding the taxpaying public from a public space during it's normal operating hours based on gender. So if the pool normally closes at 8 pm, but it starts closing to the general public at 6:30 in order to hold a session for religiously motivated modest swimsuit people, that's really not fair.

FWIW, I've looked on the website of one of the modest swimsuit companies for Muslim women in the UK, and their suits are pretty darned cute and snug enough I don't see how it would impede recreational swimming. I've halfway considered ordering one, just because the sun and I are not friends (but I wound up getting a little boys' suit from Target that covered the same amount of space instead.) The stuff marketed to American fundie Christians, OTOH, is hideous and baggy and looks like an accidental drowning waiting to happen.

[hootinholler]

36. HELL YES pools should be sex segregated!

I know *I* don't want to be swimming with people having sex in the pool!

What's that?

Oh, that's quite different. Nevermind.

[Blue_Tires]

40. well played...

[keroro gunsou]

43. quite

very well played miss litella

[A HERETIC I AM]

60. "Endangered Feces?" n/t

[hootinholler]

62. Natural Race Horses!

Where would we be without Secretariat?

[Iggo]

39. No.

[Marrah_G]

49. I'm not opposed to having certain times for female only or male only.

As long as it is equal time and that there is also equal time for people of all genders to swim together.

My issue in this comes from the decision based upon religion as reflected in the dress code requirements. No religion should be able to enforce their dress codes in public places.

[Scout]

51. no. not in public pools. n/t

[JCMach1]

53. one of the reasons i am leaving the Middle East

Please don't bring this BS to the West

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

54. Meanwhile in Orange County...

I have seen the unusual combination of sloppy bikinis AND a hijab.

Nearly exposed breasts and ass: apparently okay. Exposed hair: apparently not.

Shrug...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

55. sex-segregated swimming should be done by lanes, not by hours

Sex should be permitted in odd-numbered lanes, but I believe even-numbered lanes should be more chaste.

[Zalatix]

61. Not just no, but HELL no. n/t

[kazakevi]

63. sex segregated swim classes

I think it is time for go back to sex segregated gym classes and sex segregated swim classes and for strict no swim suit policies for boys swim classes along with soap showers before entering the pool area. Nude swimming is good for establishing proper hygiene and cleaner swimming pool water with the use of minimal dangerous chemicals like chlorine. I do not believe this is some sort of religious issue or some sort Arab issue. We did very well for mot of the 1900's to 1980 with nude swimming in public schools. I believe the explosion of sexual harassment claims today is a result of not allowing nude swimming in school and there fore people acting out sexually instead of being comfortable with thier own body as oppsed to being fearful that someone see them nude. I have not figured out why hygiene for women is not popular these days? I find they like to wash off the perfume in the pool water instead of taking a soap shower.