Is there anyone you would refuse to serve?

[3catwoman3]

I have pondered this question over the past several days of the Indiana saga. I am not a business owner, so I likely will not have to make such decisions, but the following scenario occurred to me:

Potential customers come into my place of business. They are decorated with numerous swastika tattoos and spouting hate speech amongst themselves. Do I serve them or throw them out? My instinct would be the latter.

[geomon666]

1. Anyone in the Bush Crime Family

Other assorted Nazis.

[PowerToThePeople]

2. one example, Dick Cheney.

[Takket]

3. I would serve anyone so long as

They are not being abusive to me or my employees or other customers.

[Adrahil]

81. Sure. A couple examples...

If I'm a printer, I would print any white supremacist or anti-gay (or similar) literature, signs, etc.

Likewise, I would not print materials for a Republican candidate for office.

Let them eat in my restaurant? Sure. So long as they come without the white sheets and hoods or guns.

Cater their event? Nope.

[Avalux]

4. Open carry gun nuts would not be welcome at my business.

Other than that, I'd serve anyone.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

5. The reason I would refuse service would be for behavior.

As a commercial business it would be my responsibility to treat everyone the same if they sought out my services. If anyone starts to act like an asshole (including verbally), THEN they get the boot. On edit: open carry nutters pretty much automatically fall into "asshole" category. If they wanted my services I would request they leave their weapons outside my establishment. If they refused, the boot!

[fredamae]

6. I'd toss Assholes....

and that statement doesn't rely on sexual orientation, age, skin color and gender.

Unlike the above....being an Asshole Is a choice.

[Arugula Latte]

7. Nugent.

[yeoman6987]

8. Nope. I serve everyone including those I disagree with

If you exempt anyone your as bad as the tea party.

[PowerToThePeople]

15. you(')r(e) as bad as the teaparty

If you refuse to serve mass murdering war criminals? I am sorry, but I do not see the similarity here.

[yeoman6987]

20. Big time comparison

Either you discriminate or you don't. I don't and won't ever.

[LanternWaste]

18. What specifically do you base that statement on?

"If you exempt anyone your as bad as the tea party..."

On what specifically do you base that statement on?

[yeoman6987]

21. They discriminate against others we don't or shouldnt

[LanternWaste]

25. Denial of service to an individual who distinguishes themselves due to their own behavior is not dis

"we don't or shouldnt..."

Your premise then, is based wholly on a subjective value rather than any moral absolute. Also, I think you've unaware of the academic definition of the word.

Discrimination is (by definition) a distinction made against a person on the basis of the group, class, or category rather than according to actual merit. Denial of service to an individual who distinguishes themselves due to their own behavior is not discrimination. it may or may not be ethical, but it's not discrimination.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

51. We should refuse service to NON protected groups who are assholes or who act improperly

Refusing to serve a nazi, who you can tell is a nazi, is not at all the same as not serving a person of a protected class.

They know this, they just want excuses to be bigots.

[Sarcastica]

33. Well said. Lead by example.

[PowerToThePeople]

42. hmm.

Someone fairly new comparing us to teaparty, followed by new member in support of this possition whose favorite group is RKBA. Wheels are turning in my brain now.

[marble falls]

60. Swims. Quacks. Gotta be a duck.

[NYC_SKP]

56. Whatever you do, don't call anyone a "dumbass" because your reply will be hidden.

Mark my words.

[Adrahil]

83. Really?

If you're a printer, you'd print flyers for the local white supremacist rally?

[uppityperson]

9. I would, have, refused service for behavior but that is all. I've learned that some of the scary

looking people are really not that bad, and some ordinary looking people are.

[Avalux]

24. I'm with you on that, except for guns.

Is that counted as behavior? Of course if the gun is concealed I wouldn't know, but with the new open carry law here in Texas, people will be walking around with handguns and more on display. They're not welcome in my business if they think they need to bring a gun with them.

[metalbot]

44. Do you post a 30.06 today?

Any business owner is free to put up a sign which will make it a felony for someone to walk into their business with a handgun, and the same will apply once open carry is legal.

[Avalux]

46. Thanks for the info.

I don't have a business open to the public, but it's good to know when I do in the near-future.

[Sunlei]

86. I agree with you. I'd err on the side of caution if you see a open gun on a stranger, call 911.

I would not even approach them. Let the police tell you if it's 'ok' to let them in the door.

[Yupster]

62. What if you owned a tee-shirt business

and nice looking people came in with an order to make 500 t shirts that said

Know a Muslim? Laugh at him because he worships a child rapist.

You would make those t shirts?

[uppityperson]

63. Well, that is behavior and a good example of what I wrote. Thanks.

[el_bryanto]

10. Well Hitler. And not just because of the Nazi thing.

He's also dead, and I imagine that would be some sort of health violation.

Bryant

[dumbcat]

11. I often hear on this forum that

Silence is consent. Following that concept, one could think that serving the skinhead/neo-nazi/KKK customers that come into your shop could be considered agreement.

If silence is consent, isn't service agreement?

[LanternWaste]

23. It may just as easily be desire for money-- which is not consent, but merely greed.

"If silence is consent, isn't service agreement?"

It may just as easily be desire for money-- which is not consent, but merely greed. Silence (in your scenario) beings no advantage to the quiet, hence the agenda may be predicated more easily. Service however, may bring profit. And profit/greed allows for very little discrimination.

[uppityperson]

28. "desire for money" could also be trying to pay the rent, buy food vs "greed"

Survival vs not

[Igel]

48. No, and that's the problem.

Because if silence is consent, then the religious folk are right: By serving a group, it's assumed that they agree, appreciate, and consent to the propriety and rightness of their actions and beliefs, and any attempt to say that you do not do so is a speech crime or a thought crime.

That's really illiberal, IMO.

If "acceptance" means nothing more than "treating as equals"--something that is entirely observable and based on behavior, not on thought and what's said in private (or even in public, but in different circles), then fine. I can go with "acceptance" in that sense (call it sense 1). But that's what I call "tolerance." Tolerance well-practiced is not acting in a demeaning way. That's being mildly abusive, not tolerant. I've had people I think utterly reprehensible think I was their friend; I really pitied them as a result because the only thing that told me is that so many people treated them like shit for so long that just being treated kindly and tolerantly could be confused with being treated as a friend.

If "acceptance" means "accepting the other person's views as equal to your own, even appreciating them" then it's a definition of tolerance I can't handle. Let's call it 'sense 2'. If you think another's views are as good as your own, there's no basis apart from habit for maintaining your own. Your views, the other guy's views, what's the difference? No point having a firm opinion because they're all good. I tend to prefer my opinions, however, so I'm not going to accept others' as equal. Even though I may treat them as equal, or tolerate them. Sometimes.

Most people aren't willing to go that far. They want their views accepted (in sense 2), but only are willing to accept (sense 1, "tolerate&quot other views that disagree with theirs and the people that hold them. Mostly you get "sense 2" when people are indifferent to the opinion and the people involved.

[Psephos]

66. good post n/t

[HereSince1628]

12. I wouldn't sell a sedge meadow to a developer...

It really wouldn't matter what religion, gender preference, race, etc.

I just wouldn't sell a piece of nature to a rapist.

Similarly I wouldn't sell a drumlin top to a cell-phone tower builder.

I've been in that position. I refused, more or less... at least a smidgen politely.

[Shrike47]

13. Yes. I declined to represent a woman who slapped her small child in my waiting room.

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. Anyone visibly drunk or under the influence of drugs, that's it (n/t)

[yuiyoshida]

16. Bigots, Racists, Homophobes, Misogynists..

Anyone who seems to Live on Hating others...for their differences.

[LanternWaste]

17. Many individuals, yes-- sometimes an entire group of individuals; but never a by-birth demographic.

There are many individuals I would refuse-- sometimes an entire group of individuals; but never a by-birth demographic.

[underpants]

19. Refusing based on WHO they are is discrimination - WHAT they do is not

If service is denied due to who someone is (race, gender, sexual orientation), that is discrimination but anyone's actions are grounds for refusal of service.

Swastika anything? Get out, you are creating a disturbance.

Drunken and/or loud behavior, hygiene/smells go under the same umbrella.

[el_bryanto]

34. That's well stated. nt

[KamaAina]

22. Mike Pence

Turnabout is fair play.

[logosoco]

26. Anyone that I know had stolen something from the business.

And anyone who has a large weapon on their person. Guns make me nervous. I do not have to be around them. If they are that afraid, I don't want to be next to them if something sets them off.

[BainsBane]

27. Federal law allows you to refuse service to anyone for any reason

except based on discrimination according to membership in a protected class.

It's hard for me to say what I would do in regard to the Swastikas, etc... I'm not a business owner and have never been in that kind of situation.

[pampango]

29. Certainly not based on any characteristic they were born with - race, gender, sexual orientation,

nationality, ethnicity, etc.

[3catwoman3]

37. That is the distinction by which I would justify...

...not serving the swastika tattooed individuals in my imaginary scenario. Being a hate filled a$$h0le IS a choice.

[Brother Buzz]

30. I'd refuse to serve this remorseless eating machine

That is, if I owned an all-you-can-eat seafood joint

[Bay Boy]

31. Let's say you own a restaurant...

...and it has a meeting room. Would you not allow a republican group to rent that room? Do you think it would open you to a lawsuit?

[leftofcool]

36. I would but up the price by about triple.

[Bay Boy]

39. Let's turn it around now...

...I own the only restaurant in town and I don't want to let your pro choice group meet here. Are you cool with that?

[Art_from_Ark]

67. I'd be cool with that

Only 1 restaurant in town = town's population is a few hundred, maybe a thousand. Chances are, the town is pretty conservative, and you might lose more customers by letting a political group meet at your restaurant. Heck, I've eaten at restaurants in small towns where, judging by the tone of the conversations I heard, I might get my tires slashed if I openly discussed those sorts of issues.

[Bay Boy]

75. So this would be a form of religious discrimination

that you would be ok with?

And when you walk into an establishment and see Fox news on the TV that is a pretty good indication of a RW owner.

[Art_from_Ark]

89. I take it you've never really experienced Hicktown, USA

[Man from Pickens]

32. my list

My work is IT so I don't have a storefront and don't serve the general public on a retail basis. But there is a definite list of people I will not serve:

- anyone in the porn industry
- neocons
- banks
- pharmaceutical companies

I have refused business to potential customers in all of these categories

[Doremus]

35. I have thrown out far right whackjobs out of my shop

If they get argumentive or spout partisan bs I have and do throw them out. One of the benefits of self-employment.

An incident that still gives me great satisfaction is when the RW mouth breather bought an expensive pair of bookends that had the eagle logo of FDR's National Recovery Act thinking they were HIS NRA. I sometimes wonder if he's ever figured it out.

[ismnotwasm]

38. I'd toss them out for hate speech.

In fact, I'd call the cops.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. Man

[larkrake]

41. Cheney

[csziggy]

43. I once refused to do business with a Republican jerk

Who had failed to communicate with me prior to assuming I would take his business.

The situation was complicated - he had boarded his horse with a person who was leasing our facilities. When she left, she told him to call me to arrange for me to board the horse. He never called. When she finished moving and the horse was still here, I had trouble contacting him since he never answered his phone and did not return messages for over a week.

I didn't particularly want to do business with him - he was high up in Jeb Bush's crony list - especially since I have a long standing attitude that people who do not communicate with me are problem clients. In addition, since I had never talked with him I had no contract with him to care for his horse. I also had no instructions as to amount and type of feed, no records, including state required certificates, no record of veterinary care, etc.

I finally left a message that if the horse wasn't removed by a certain time I would call the sheriff's office, report it as abandoned and have them pick it up and take it to another location. THAT message he got and returned. It was a pleasure to tell him I would not do business with him and his horse had to be removed before my deadline.

[lunatica]

45. Pedophiles

I used to be a waitress way back 40 years ago, and I once pondered on what types it's possible I may have been waiting on. I knew there was a possibility that I waited on spouse abusers, rapists, and even murderers without knowing it, but when I thought of pedophiles I knew that I would never, ever wait on one if I knew who they were.

[Lurker Deluxe]

49. serve/cater

I would serve anyone who walked in the door, as long as they were not disruptive.

I would not cater an event that I disagreed with the message of the event, and I do not believe anyone should be forced to do so.

[KittyWampus]

50. someone with no shoes or shirt on.

[Codeine]

52. A fair number of my daily customers have swastika

tattoos. I still serve them -- I figure shit happens in prison and as long as they aren't spouting a bunch of racist rhetoric then it's none of my business.

I served a lot of gangbangers in the past, but gang stuff seems to have dramatically decreased in our neighborhood in the last couple years. They were never a problem in our store.

I serve a ton of homeless guys, but I won't let them in when they're covered in their own urine (distressingly common.)

Three or four of my regular customers are on the Megan's Law site. I serve them, but I also watch them.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

53. No.

That would fly in the face of every bit of ethical training you get as a nurse.

You do your best for the nastiest slimeball out there, just as you would for your dearest family member.

[Jenny Red Eye]

54. I would serve anyone and everyone, even if they made my other customers uncomfortable, except:

1) Those who obviously physically or verbally threatened or intimidated people in my place of business.

2) Those who posed a potential health issue (bodily fluids, etc.)

3) Those who crossed a very generous line of rudeness to my staff or customers.

[ZombieHorde]

55. This would depend on my business.

If I ran a business that was geared toward children, like a Chuck E. Cheese, I wouldn't want people wearing sexually graphic T-Shirts in my restaurant, but I wouldn't care about the T-shirt if I were a mechanic. I would also refuse people that I deemed to be total assholes, such as people who seemed threatening to the customers or employees.

[DefenseLawyer]

57. As a general rule

I don't represent informants in conspiracy cases.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

58. You have the legal right not to serve anybody as long as your refusal isn't based on race...

You have the legal right not to serve anybody as long as your refusal isn't based on race, religion, gender, and in many states sexual identity/orientation.

If I show up at Mortons in shorts, a t shirt, and flip flops they have a right not to serve me...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

59. Anyone disrespecting my staff

I do not tolerate rudeness.

[Yupster]

64. And you're on DU?

We sort of major in rudeness.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

65. I'm pretty sure you know the difference between rudeness on a message board and in a business. n/m

[Katashi_itto]

61. Zombies. I won't serve their kind.

[Zorra]

68. I'll serve anyone who is not a clear and present danger and immediate threat.

They can believe whatever they want to believe, up until the point where they deliberately harm someone else because of their deranged beliefs.

After that, all bets are off; my service takes on a whole new dimension.

[Telcontar]

69. Droids

We don't serve their kind.

[flobee1]

71. same thing went through my mind!

That siri can get a little mouthy at full charge.

Just starting up a catering business. I banned someone soup nazi style for 4 months because they called me a republican

[Sparhawk60]

72. Any One Who is Disruptive

Or doesn't have money. If a customer is polite, and pays, I am all smiles and sunshine, regardless of their personal beliefs.

/except the Dutch..I can not stand the Dutch, the have small hands and smell of cabbage.

[Vattel]

70. This can't be finessed by distinguishing identity from behavior.

If two guys come into a restaurant holding hands and the owner refuses service, the problem is with the owner because there is nothing wrong with the behavior and that's true even though the two individuals choose to hold hands and even though some moronic customers are predictably offended.

But if two guys come into a restaurant wearing shirts with anti-Semitic slogans on them and are refused service, the problem is with them because their views not only do offend--they merit offense. I would toss them out in a minute, and if I didn't, I would deserve to lose customers rightly offended by the shirts.

Bottom line: There is nothing wrong with two romantically involved men holding hands, but there is something wrong with being anti-Semitic.

[WinkyDink]

74. Yes, there is---but it is not illegal to be anti-Semitic. You would lose more than future customers.

[Vattel]

84. There's nothing illegal with lots of stuff that should

get someone kicked out of a restaurant.

[WinkyDink]

73. You serve them. What's it to YOU what they believe, as long as they aren't trashing the place?

[Vinca]

76. Someone who entered my business armed with a weapon.

No one needs an AK to purchase an antique cup and saucer.

[glowing]

77. Yes, it is still a discretionary item as to whom you will serve.

In this scenario, the customers who walked into the business and were disruptive to everyone else in the establishment would be more than enough to say, we have a 3 hr wait for a table or at a hotel, "I'm sold out". The hate speech alone would be enough to ask them to leave if you did dare sit them around other customers. Most wouldn't be happy about them, but if they were speaking loudly enough and nastily enough, you can throw them out.

Most people who are in a business should be smart enough on how to word items in a manner that would send someone on their way. I work at a hotel. I've had some nasty idiots walk in and decide, nope, I'm full, no rooms at this inn. Or have someone start acting up and need throw them out of the hotel; especially, when they get racist... That's kind of my tipping point.

[Renew Deal]

78. No shoes, no shirt, no service

Just kidding. I've worked at the register before. Throwing someone out of a store would be a high bar. Generally unless people are fighting, we're OK. If someone walked in in a klan robe I would say no, but that doesn't happen.

[modem77]

79. Hating people that hate us solves nothing. Don't be like them.

[H2O Man]

80. LBJ or Nixon

in Vietnam.

Cheney in the Middle East.

[Sunlei]

82. No, as a rule we never discuss politics, religion or any customers sexuality around here.

My business has always been strictly by referrals from family & friends of customers. They come from many places around the world but all currently live in the USA. We have a reputation and have earned trust.

By your example of a small business like burger king, local pizza or an ice cream parlor, the owner would be a fool to refuse to serve anyone even if they're a tattooed nazi club. Their business will die or they will lose their franchise.

If someone breaks the law, like "spouting hate speech" disturbing the peace/harassing/threatening- call the police. It's their job.

[Dale Neiburg]

85. Let me answer the opposite question

Like many others here, it would be because of obnoxious behavior (yes, subjective on my part). But looking at it from the other side, I refuse to do business with anyone who uses the Christian fish in their advertising.

[pipi_k]

87. Only one type...

OK, two:

If I'm running a bar or serving alcohol in some other capacity, anyone who already looks, acts, or smells like he's had enough does not get served.

And someone who is violent.

Other than that...no. I would not refuse service to anyone else based on who they are.

[damnedifIknow]

88. If they want to discriminate then do it right

Fat people, bald people, people who wear tube socks with sandals, short haired people, long haired people, too much makeup, not enough makeup, people with glasses, people with contacts, people with untied shoes, and of course never serve a person who drives a pink car.