A cartoon about rape culture and risk

[Brickbat]

In my experience, living in rape culture is not "living in fear." I'm not constantly worrying about where the next attack is coming from. Part of that is circumstance, but part of that is because "living in fear" is fucking exhausting. This cartoon, in my opinion, provides a good description of what dating in rape culture is like -- the low-level awareness that is basic common sense when meeting someone new, but also the second-guessing of your own actions in the event that something does go wrong.

Direct link: http://www.robot-hugs.com/risky-date/

[Gothmog]

1. Very powerful cartoon

[seabeyond]

2. you you you feminists say we are all potential rapists. end of cartoon, and still she is blamed

because she dared do a risk analysis to avoid a possible rape that she would inevitably be blamed for not stopping or preventing from happening and in doing that very thought process has the man pointing the finger and blaming and criticizing her.

her actually hear this one often on du from a small group of men.

blame the girls for not taking their defenses classes to prevent their rapes and then when they implement the rules to avoid potential problems, blame them for implying all men are rapists.

[FSogol]

3. K & R. n/t

[Bonobo]

4. If all personal relations ended with "It's not my job to communicate my feelings..."

Things wouldn't get very far. On a personal level -when entering into a relationship or a dating situation -it is difficult not to feel offended when someone implies that you may be a rapist.

I know you find that hard to understand and I don't blame you. It is probably because you have never been put in that situation.

People have a hard time bridging the gulf that separates each other and putting themselves in others shoes.

It is ironic because it is that same inability to feel empathy that is behind both HIS lack of understanding of HER feelings and HER lack of understanding of HIS feelings.

You can argue the risks and rewards and you would be right to conclude that the women in this situation faces much larger risks.

But the lack of empathy for each other's feelings is nevertheless similar and once she gives up on communicating her side, her feelings, there is little chance of progress in a relationship.

It is not the man's job to understand her feelings and it is not her job to understand his feelings. That is where the EFFORT needed to form bonds comes in. Take it or leave it. That's human relations.

[Brickbat]

5. Victim-blaming makes a lot more sense if you think that "let's meet in public" means "I think you're

a rapist."

[Bonobo]

8. Who is the victim blamer here? Who is the victim?

I see a person who decides it is too much trouble to communicate her feelings and the potential relationship ends there.

The man communicated his feelings that he felt hurt that she felt he may be a rapist. Does HE have a right to his feelings? Are you trying to shut down his feelings or his expression of his feelings? Which one? Both?

I, for one, DO understand HER feelings as well. I don't blame her one bit. But I wonder why she chooses not to communicate them and instead throws up her hands and says "It's not my JOB" (as if it is ANYONE'S "job" to communicate anything to anyone)

[eggplant]

14. Clearly you missed this part:

"We're expected to perform risk calculations comprehensively and accurately all the time"

and

"We are expected to constantly and correctly take actions"

To assume that someone who doesn't actually know you should inherently trust you prior to getting to know you, and then to place blame on them if they don't is kind of the whole point here. You complain about a lack of empathy. Where's yours?

[Bonobo]

15. I already told you that I do understand her position and feelings.

I empathize with her position. It is the potential partner in the story who feels slighted, not me. But having said that, I would understand his feelings as well. It is hurtful when someone that you like doesn't trust you, isn't it?

[eggplant]

19. No. Trust is earned.

And people are entitled to their own feelings. If you don't like me, that's your problem. If I'm hurt because you don't like me, that's my problem.

You act like she owes him something for approaching her. I mean beyond her perfectly reasonable negotiation of a meet. You complain that she doesn't trust him, but it is the guy that isn't trusting her preference.

This sounds just like when an underage person gets all pissed off when they get carded. People who are of age don't take it personally.

[Bonobo]

23. She owes him nothing. He owes her nothing. It's a wash.

But entering a relationship can only work if there is some communication and the willingness to do that.

If there isn't, there is no relationship and that is all I said.

Maybe you should re-read my post because you sound like you are starting to hear things that aren't there.

[seabeyond]

27. She communicated. he was unwilling to accept. hence, her walking. you got that right

[Bonobo]

29. "It's not my fucking job to educate you."

You're right. She did a bang up job communicating.

[seabeyond]

32. wow, you are kinda give us exactly the same example of that man, and the conclusion..... not my job

she has clearly EDUCATED him and he continues to ignore her to get his way and her go to his home.

HE is the one, one watches out for. even in communication, education, the woman is ignored and the man throws his tantrum to get his way, at her expense.

[seabeyond]

34. she was patient thru out the whole thing, politely taking his feelers into consideration.

to not hurt him... and he continued to not consider her position. until she finally say enough... and walks.

and you are ranting about the walk. done.

instead of ALL the vast info in that cartoon.

good job walking us away from a conversation, to it being all about the menz.... and the bad woman.

[Bonobo]

38. You did not have to engage in this subthread for this long, Seabeyond.

I control you no more than the man in this cartoon controlled the woman.

[seabeyond]

42. nor did i suggest you controlled me at all, so bogus statement. you are WANTING this man

in the cartoon to control her. you are demanding it of the woman in the cartoon. and we are saying, no.... she choose walk, and you sit her and ignore the whole damn cartoon, that she has a responsibility to empathize further with the man, furthering wasting her time, while he is clearly showing her wants, needs are going to be ignored.

you waste all the time, blaming the woman,

and discuss nothing of the important shit about the cartoon. you know.

it is all about the menz

we are talking about womens rape and worse.

we are discussing in the cartoon, mans dismissal of the rape of women.

and you are ignoring the rape of women, because of the po man's feelers

[Bonobo]

36. He neither ignored her nor got his way.

It was never in his power to get that.

She is in the position of power here and she claims it. Good for her.

You cannot both claim a position of power, Seabeyond, while still maintaining that you are the hapless plaything at the mercy of a man's wishes.

He expressed his feelings. That is not the same as forcing her to do something against her will, you know.

[seabeyond]

37. he ignored her to TRY and get his way. she walked.

[Bonobo]

41. You need to stop portraying women as having no agency.

He is free to say whatever he wants. She is free to say whatever she wants.

Neither is coercive in the situation.

They have no strings or ties on each other.

[seabeyond]

43. you need to stop creating false statement attributed to me. the woman exhibited her agency,

and you are demanding she failed... her responsibility to the man.

[Bonobo]

46. She had no responsibility to the man.

And he had none to her.

All I said was that if all relationships ended with a failure to communicate with the excuse of "it's no my job", there would be very few relationships indeed.

[seabeyond]

57. you and i agree. she had no responsibility to man so quit trying to make her. have a good day.

[Bonobo]

58. Night time for me.

Good night. You have a good day.

[seabeyond]

40. "She is in the position of power here and she claims it. Good for her. "

this is what we are saying. you on the other hand are not saying good for her. you are BLAMING her for not being empathetic and continuing conversation.!!!!

[Bonobo]

44. Uh, no that is what I just said, not you.

On the other hand, I give her the power to make her own decisions and to have control over her own actions too.

She made the decisions here. She ALSO chose not to communicate and I DO think she chose not to be or was not empathetic in EXACTLY the same way as he was not (and you are not).

I admitted already the risks she would face and the small risks he face. I ADMIT that it is just feelings.

But when I dare to use the word feelings, all you can do is dismiss men for even having them.

She would indeed be at risk to go to his apt. But conversing, confronting his feelings is NO RISK at all. So you can drop that red herring.

[eggplant]

39. No, I can read just fine.

Your entire premise here started with:

If all personal relations ended with "It's not my job to communicate my feelings..."

The "relationship" in this case pretty much ended when he accused her of assuming he was a creepy rapist. She made her feelings pretty clear, and he ignored them. He made his feelings pretty clear, and she understood them.

You seem upset that she somehow wasn't willing to try to work it out. ("There is little chance of progress in a relationship.&quot This means one of two things:

1. She should always try to "work it out" and it is her fault for giving up.
2. There is an acceptable threshold where giving up is acceptable, but they hadn't gotten there yet.

The first is just absurd. And in the second, it isn't your place to define that threshold for her.

[hopemountain]

161. because in this case the person with "empathy"

expects her to take a risk and ignores her suggestions to meet in a public place because what the person who claims to have "empathy" really wants is to discount her wishes and have control of where they are to meet. hence - empathy is feigned and her assessment of risk is right on.

a person who is truly empathic would suggest a public meeting place to begin with - or at least be agreeable to meeting in public instead of being put out by a simple request.

ugh. exactly the kind of person a woman/other would NOT want to meet anywhere after this type of "discussion".

[cui bono]

199. Yeah, especially when this is a guy who completely ignores her feelings in the first place,

so what's the point of talking it over? It's such a bizarre argument to make, but then some men just want to argue about this and can't stand that a woman will take charge of her own life.

[pintobean]

97. If a guy is that fucking stupid

he'll never get a date.

Tough shit.

[seabeyond]

100. ... he SHOULD never get a date. fixed it.

[thucythucy]

145. So let's attempt to equalize the risk, shall we?

Before I meet you someplace that feels threatening to me, how about you share your social security number, ATM card and PIN number, credit card information, etc.?

You'd do that, right? You'd instantly share information allowing a complete stranger access to your bank account (and while I'm at it, how about you send me your house and car keys?).

No, you wouldn't? But but but... you're assuming that I'm a thief? How hurtful of you!!! Think if my feelings!

[Gormy Cuss]

181. His position, after he gets over the hurt, might be that he understands why it wasn't personal

Last edited Wed Apr 8, 2015, 12:06 AM - Edit history (1)

because it is the context that women live in and yes, the unpleasant side effect is that men will be regarded with some suspicion until mutual trust develops.

[cui bono]

192. She doesn't know him, why should she trust him?

And as to something you said earlier about her thinking he is a rapist, that's not at all accurate.

A woman has to keep in mind that he may be a rapist. For a man to feel slighted/insulted/hurt by this he has to be pretty unaware of daily life. If I were on the receiving end of that I would just think, hey I get it, you don't know me and there are a lot of assholes in the world, let's do something where you feel safe.

I think you missed the part where he wouldn't take her suggestion and kept pressing the idea that he should pick her up at her house and drive her to his house to have drinks. Drinks he would be making himself, and I'm sure you've heard of people slipping rufis (no idea how to spell that) in them and remember, she is now in a possible unknown neighborhood with no vehicle. That is a pretty dangerous situation to expect a woman to put herself in for a first date with someone she met on the internet. Seriously, think about it. He continued to press the issue multiple times. Why? Who would do that? Not a compassionate man who sympathizes, let alone empathizes, with what a woman has to think about in order to be safe in this world.

Any man confident in himself would feel fine with, and in fact applaud, a woman who is smart about her choices.

[Bonobo]

195. I never even said she SHOULD trust him.

My ONLY reaction that people seem to disagree with was her decision to not share her position and thinking further.

She has no responsibility to do so, but if the purpose of the cartoon was to educate, why not do so with someone that you actually are on speaking terms with.

I would add that she never herself suggested suspicion over his motivation but only expressed anger at his lack of empathy over her thought process.

[cui bono]

198. She suggested a few times to meet somewhere public and he refused and continued to state

that he would pick her up and bring her back to his place for drinks. How many times must a woman suggest an alternative before a man will listen to her? How could he not grasp from that that she wanted to meet somewhere public? They have never even met in person before, what do you want her to explain that isn't obvious?

At that point it's pretty obvious this guy is an insensitive and unaware oaf who is not deserving of her or any other self-respecting woman's time. I think that's the point of her not feeling like she should "share her position and thinking further". She already said she'd rather meet somewhere public, what more needs to be said? It's obvious what the concern is, this is a guy off the internet that she has never met in person before. What's to explain??? Why is he being so pushy??? His refusal to accept her suggestion the first time shows there is cause for concern right off the bat. If I were in that scenario and he ignored my request one time and repeated the suggestion of picking me up at my house and taking me to his house for drinks I would say never mind then. Do you really not see the danger in that?

Let's put it this way... what makes this guy deserving of any sort of discussion that you are suggesting? Why would this woman feel talking to this guy is worth her time and energy? You seem to really not like the fact that she decided it was over before it began, but the man ensured that by ignoring her very real and legitimate concerns for her own safety. That is not the kind of guy who would respond to any further discussion.

[Bonobo]

201. Look. I am not that invested.

The truth is that on this thread I wanted to make one small comment. My first one. The content of it is really no big deal.

But when people fly at me, I always defend myself. It is part of my makeup.

I actually don't give that much of a flying fuck to be honest.

I can see the point that the guy probably just wanted to have sex. That happens. Some men just want sex and some women do too. People are into all sorts of things and not everyone has the same POV.

If the dude just wanted a lay, I guess he struck out. End of story. But it could have turned out that she was into that too. That happens as well.

[cui bono]

204. But you seemed adamant that the woman owed the man some sort of discussion for some reason.

She owed him nothing. He deserved nothing like that after how he treated her.

[Bonobo]

205. Not at all. Just read my posts and you will see I actually said over and over

that she OWED him nothing.

OTOH, I said she could have offered more by ways of communication.

Those are different things to me. No one OWES anyone anything really if there are no ties.

I said so over and over and over.

My only point again is that I see no reason NOT to have explained to him what she explained so eloquently through comics.

I am sorry you read "adamant" into my imaginary mindset. It wasn't there. What WAS there was responses to an onslaught of antagonistic responses which ALWAYS will get a defensive reaction from me.

[JTFrog]

208. Only people who have read your posts would read adamant into your

"imaginary mindset". I mean, it seems that you are always complaining about women from your very privileged white dude perspective.

Recently you've been ranting about police violence against men by declaring that they aren't killing women nearly as often as men. The majority of those killings are done by men to men, yet you always drag the womenz into it.

People here are tired of hearing crap that sounds like it's copied and pasted from some MRA group. If that isn't your mindset, perhaps you should post different material.

[Bonobo]

211. Men are the victims of murder at the hands of police, that's right.

I am sorry you have a problem with facts.

[JTFrog]

213. I don't have a problem with facts.

I'm sorry you have a problem with women.

[Bonobo]

215. Some women. Some.

Men too. The world is filled with all kinds of people. Easy ones, difficult ones and ones that are just plain fucked in the head.

[JTFrog]

216. Yea, those with a functional brain and a survival instinct apparently. n/t

[seabeyond]

217. right. the ONE argument i didnt address in this thread. the whole damn SOME thing. that a handful

of men continually take to argument, to once again, ignore the significance of that cartoon to our girls and women.

take it to the damn menz. the some. by gosh.... identify exactly how many. some. some some some some. a handful, many, a vast, the majority, a few, ......

we KNOW why men ad damn well demanding their "SOME" every second of every damn conversation.

[seabeyond]

218. you could not get the sympathy for men, cause the woman finally said fuck it. so now, you DEMAND

we shift the argument, to blaming women cause they are not using some.... and nullifying any woman issue cause it is some men and some women. no problem here.

along with no problem with rape, cause the number has so diminished, (regardless of all the false info) that women should stfu and feel lucky and blessed, fewer are raped.

[Bonobo]

219. You've gone off the tracks in all seriousness.

I think we're done.

You're in another dimension.

[seabeyond]

221. you just simply cannot shift this to women's fault dude. one way or another.

[seabeyond]

222. so fuggin' funny. are you really throwing in the emotionally/mentally unstable. what is it you men

call us women? cant remember. your co host, lumberjack, has it down.

i will think of it, give me a moment.

[cui bono]

224. I apologize if I misrepresented you as "adamant". I honestly can't see how anyone could possibly

think the woman should have done anything more than what she did.

Really, if it were your daughter, do you not think that after she suggested - more than once - to meet in a public place and the man whom she has only "met" on the internet then replied - more than once - that he wished to pick her up from her home, thereby learning where she lives, take her back to his house for drinks... if someone internet guy did that to your daughter would you really think she "could have offered more by ways of communication"?

What should she be offering an insensitive, uncaring man like that? How can you possibly think the woman has any responsibility such as that?

[stone space]

80. I'd suggest that he keep those feelings to himself.

He is the one who brought up rape in the second panel, not her, while presenting himself as a victim, and talking about how messed up she is.

The man communicated his feelings that he felt hurt that she felt he may be a rapist. Does HE have a right to his feelings?

He has the right to raise as many creepy red flags as he wants.

She has the right to recognize those red flags for what they are...danger signs.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

160. she did. communicate her feelings...

I'd rather meet somewhere else, I'd rather meet you there, not at my house....here's a place I like, do have a place you prefer...

She communicates her preferences.
Remember that women also have to think about how much to say about why they'd prefer a public meeting place. Public meeting is generally accepted now; it's odd that someone else would question that preference.

That in itself is a red flag.

Women have to think about whether the person will "take her the wrong way", be offended. And is that a red flag, if they are offended?


You're whining about communicating, but it looks like you put ALL THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR COMMUNICATING ON THE WOMAN. Notice that?

You're consistent, baboon, I'll give you that.

[eggplant]

10. Uh huh.

Because the risk to him is hurt feelings, and she isn't sufficiently empathetic about that.

Talk about false equivalency.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

49. god forbid a man get his feebles hurt.

[YoungDemCA]

52. It's amazing, isn't it?

Talk about bruised egos.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

65. and somehow we are supposed to "care" about some stranger's feebles when

that stranger has made it all too obvious that they don't give one damn about ours.

I don't know, at this point in the conversation whether I am already too tired or too bored to be bothered with the guy.

Either reason, pick one, I am done with that conversation.

And, so many conversations go like this.

In this age of computer dating and still they ask.

They see your profile.
They send you a PM
You swap PMs. They go ... ok ...
You swap phone numbers. He calls you.
First call goes ... ok ...
so He says: let's meet ...
ok .... you say
He says: where do you live? I will pick you up.
click.

and now I regret that they even have my cell phone #

[seabeyond]

84. I don't know, at this point in the conversation whether I am already too tired or too bored

I don't know, at this point in the conversation whether I am already too tired or too bored to be bothered with the guy.

Either reason, pick one, I am done with that conversation.

And, so many conversations go like this.

ya.

about that. right on sistah.... gotta get to my sunflowers, lol. seems to be my saving grace with stupid, right now.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

90. You are doing sunflowers this year? cool.

I am loving watching my forsythia and my jonquils blooming right now ...

[el_bryanto]

11. Yes - well i think the strip did a pretty good job of addressing that particular concern

But let's weigh the two dangers.

Potential Danger to the man - hurt feelings because a woman he is talking to wants to take precautions when meeting for the first time.

Potential Danger to the woman - being raped or worse.

Comparing those two dangers . . . I'd have to say the potential danger to the woman seems more severe.

But then again I'm a white male, and if I were meeting anybody in person for the first time I'd still want to do it in a public place.

Bryant

[Bonobo]

12. Absolutely, that is why I said EXACTLY the same thing above.

The risk facing him is not even comparable to the risk facing her.

As I said, I understand her feelings.

What I am talking about is the ending. The refusal to communicate with the rather weak "It's not my job..."

That has nothing to do with risk. It does have to do with the same lack of empathy though, for each other's positions.

[eggplant]

16. Sorry, but that's just complete bullshit.

She clearly explained her feelings when she said "I'd really rather meet downtown in a bar or something. That would be a lot more comfortable for me for our first meeting."

And then he completely ignored that and began to apply pressure. So where exactly is she failing to be empathetic, again?

[Bonobo]

18. Sorry that is not really explaining her feelings.

That is explaining her wants. Two different things.

Anyway, I didn't mean she didn't share her feelings anyway. What she failed to do and HE failed to do was to understand the position of the OTHER person.

[seabeyond]

22. if she explains he is a potential RAPIST.... then all hell breaks loose and men go crazy

he is pissed at the implied not saying it out loud, and you want her to be empathetic to his feelings, demanding she says it out loud, like that will then put her in the position of doing what is right.

once again. a man, society, whatever, dictating more and more action women have to pretzel thru, to satisfy ya all, that she is preventing her rape, while being empathetic to a mans feelers.

the absurdity in irony.

[Bonobo]

26. She doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want.

She decided not to communicate and that is the end of that.

Nothing more to say really.

I am just questioning her weird statement that "It isn't my job."

Because, as I said, communicating isn't a job. It is a choice we make or not.

She chose not to. End of story. But don't expect everyone to understand, that's all.

[seabeyond]

28. no. you are beyond questioning a supposed weird statement. that is not weird at all,

but a conclusion to a man that is unwilling to accept her boundaries.

[Bonobo]

33. I'm sorry that is exactly what I am questioning.

She gave her boundaries. I think he even accepted her boundaries albeit with the admission that his "feelers" as you dismissively called them were hurt.

Do you begrudge that he would be honest about his feelings?

Apparently you believe that his feelings shouldn't be hurt, I get that. But his were. He expressed it. Should he have covered that over? Should he have had an instantaneous moment of clarity? Or should she have helped him learn the lesson that she went to all the trouble to draw this cartoon to tell to strangers?

Whatever. She chose not to communicate further and that is fine. He had his fee-fees hurt whereas she might have faced a rape. She was right to stay away. But he did not transgress on her boundaries. He merely expressed his feelings. The same ones you want others to say are not ones he has a right to.

So who really is being dismissive of feelings?

[eggplant]

45. He completely transgressed on her boundaries.

She stated them, he completely ignored them and pressed for the very thing she just said no to.

If she goes back to his place, but she says no to sex later, does he get to ignore her if she doesn't provide an adequate explanation?

And if she doesn't explain it, then his hurt feelings are somehow her fault?

[Bonobo]

50. No he didn't. Reread the cartoon.

He never asked her or pressed her again to come to his apt.

All he said was that it was messed up to assume he was a rapist.

[eggplant]

60. You're kidding, right?

"Where do you live? I'll pick you up and we can go back to my place."

"Actually, let's meet downtown. There's a bar I like on college street - or is there somewhere you'd prefer to grab a drink or a coffee?"

"It's no problem, I can pick you up and we can hang out at my house."

Without knowing her underlying rationale, he dismisses her response with "It's no problem". Sorry, she clearly has a problem with his first suggestion. He then proceeds to disregard it and apply pressure. To which she then clearly specifies her rationale, which he once again completely dismisses.

So remind me again where she made her error?

[seabeyond]

64. thumbs up. maybe we just had to be in the position of priorities the mans feelings, ....

before we got to the grits, of the womans experience. so fuggin typical.

[Bonobo]

73. Not at all, Seabeyond.

I was quite clear from my earliest post that the risk was all on her.

But this wasn't really about risk. Not the failure to communicate part.

No, there is no risk there.

In terms of being careful, he safety is the top priority and she was never in danger because she did what she needed to do.

But saying fuck off it isn;t my job isn't really about safety. It is more about a lack of empathy.

[LanternWaste]

85. Much as him ignoring her repeated requests to meet in a public spot?

"It is more about a lack of empathy..."

Much as him consistently ignoring her repeated requests to meet in a public spot?

[Bonobo]

66. I didn't say she made an error, eggplant.

And those statements he made may have been said before he realized that she was trying to avoid a potential rape from a "potential rapist"/

[eggplant]

70. No, you pretty much did.

When you had a problem with her saying "It's not my job."

[Bonobo]

76. That's not an "error", eggplant.

And "pretty much" is "pretty much not".

I said refusing to communicate because "it isn't my job" is a weird thing to say from a person who is writing a comic strip and a long one to communicate the very thing she says it isn't her job to communicate.

[whopis01]

144. Yeah - kind of creepy how he brought up rapists.

She never said anything about rape or rapists at all. But it was on his mind for some reason.

[hopemountain]

164. creepy is right!

bonobo expects a woman to explicitly detail why she is being cautious and assessing the risks of danger to her personal safety. this is the exact behavior of potential abusers and a huge red flag. because, then, the potential abuser/rapist can have an angle to win her confidence. this is exactly how sociopathic abusers & rapists work. give them a peek or an inch and they WILL take a it as far as they can. there are no boundaries for sociopathic abusers/rapists.

a woman who is aware will not bring up rape to someone who is already putting up red flags for themselves and their selfish intentions by pressing the issue. it is about boundaries not just empathy.

[yardwork]

168. I was thinking the same thing.

I'm seeing lots of red flags, both in the strip and in this thread.

Anybody who pressures a person to do something they're not comfortable doing is being abusive. Period.

Attempts to shame or coerce a person into ignoring their concerns is also potentially abusive. At the very least, this shaming behavior enables abusers.

[hopemountain]

173. excellent points, yardwork.

"shaming behavior enables abusers"

[Starry Messenger]

182. All the stars!

[pinboy3niner]

202. +1

[eggplant]

24. She didn't fail to do anything.

She was excited to meet him. She expressed a preference for a neutral location. That isn't some sort of negative statement about him.

But he took it that way. He's being a selfish jerk. Why should she explain herself to someone who is being a jerk?

[stone space]

48. This seems like a pretty clear description of her feelings to me.

"I'd really rather meet downtown in a bar or something. That would be a lot more comfortable for me for our first meeting."

I just can't wrap my head around how this could be misunderstood.

It seems pretty unambiguous to me.

[YoungDemCA]

55. Well, if the guy has ulterior motives...

...and he's intent on "scoring", then you can understand why he wouldn't have room in his little head for less important things like the feelings of the woman.

[seabeyond]

61. who is ocncerned by being raped, after all, and her responsibility to PREVENT that fuggin rape.

right....?

[yardwork]

169. +1

[YoungDemCA]

47. .....

The point of the cartoon













-----------------------




Your head

[XemaSab]

51. Why would a "nice guy" insist on having a first meeting at his place?

And then insist on picking her up so she's without a car?

And then drink a bunch himself so he's not safe to drive?

And then give her drinks so she's less capable of rational decision making?

DO YOU NOT GET THAT THE GUY IN THIS SCENARIO IS ENGINEERING A SITUATION THAT HE CONTROLS?

His feelings are hurt? Boo fucking hoo.

Only a creep would suggest a "date" like that and she's right to turn him down.

[Bonobo]

54. Not all men are nice guys and not all women are nice girls. nt

[eggplant]

63. WTF does that even mean?

[YoungDemCA]

68. False equivalency

nt

[YoungDemCA]

62. That's exactly the point, though

It's about power and control for these guys. And they have no empathy for women, apparently.

[seabeyond]

75. almost like the three yr old, being at fault, for her rape, in another fuckin thread.

i gotta be done here young.....

[seabeyond]

69. "Boo fucking hoo." point. no more to be said. oh.... besides ALL the other shit you said, lol.

and yet. we have a man demanind, the woman be dismissed because of those very feelings.

[seabeyond]

71. totally fucking amazing. i have to walk from the thread, and du... while i breathe.

totally fuckin amazing.

[Bonobo]

79. Very very very low anger threshold you have. nt

[seabeyond]

87. ya. when we are talking ignore women's rape? ya. kinda like not feeling sorry for a man in garage

that gets turned on by a three yr old little girl, or some creep extorting women, with revenge porn.

i got this really really low level.

bad me.

just kinda education, you know communicating, so you understand, so you might not get hurt feelers, and all..... since that seems to be my responsibility, per you......

[Hekate]

112. You have this down to a fine art. I've read what you said, and you are very very invested...

...in your POV, which is to blame the woman for not taking care of a stranger's feelings by accomodating his repeated requests that she (a) not take her own transportation, (b) allow him to know where she lives, (c) allow him to control the setting by (d) taking her someplace she does not know how to get out of, and (e) giving her alcoholic beverages.

He made this request more than once. In fact it was not a request, because her refusal to play it his way was a deal-breaker for this date and he got nasty.

Is this how you play it? How many red flags do you want to set up?

As far as this online DU conversation goes, now that you have played out the posters' attempts to explain by your refusal to see the problem, you use one of the oldest relationship put-downs in history. "Poke poke poke poke poke -- why are you so mad?"

Feh.

[Starry Messenger]

146. +1

[Skittles]

156. self deleting

to avoid hurting widdle feelings

[hughee99]

124. That sounds like the creepiest first date I can imagine.

And no one, whether man, woman, gay or straight should date someone who would insist on such a date.

[tazkcmo]

77. Wow

How do you equate a person's need to feel safe to a person's ego? So your little male ego got bruised when the female insisted on a safe environment to meet in? Tough toe nails.

I agree with the ending of the cartoon and will let it be my response to you as you are the male in this cartoon.

[justiceischeap]

88. I think you're slightly off here, Bonobo

on what you think is happening in this "conversation." A negotiation for a first date is taking place. They've maybe talked online and agree there's "something" there. So when it's time for the meet, the woman says "Where should we meet?" Which clearly indicates that she wants to meet somewhere. He ignores that. She suggests a specific spot for meeting, again, he ignores that suggestion. She then tells him she'd rather meet a stranger in a public setting and he jumps to the conclusion that she thinks he's a potential rapist and judges her for making a wise decision. At this point, I'd say fuck it too. The guy isn't listening to her at all. It's not about feelings but communication. She's trying to communicate and he's ignoring that communication.

Just FYI, I'm a lesbian and if meeting another woman for the first time, I'd do the exact same thing. There are some crazy people out there and it isn't wise to invite a virtual stranger to your home or go to their home. If the person gets offended by my caution, then I really don't want to have to educate them about my caution because they've already shown they don't communicate well in the first place. Why waste my time or hers/his?

[jeff47]

132. Exactly

Just FYI, I'm a lesbian and if meeting another woman for the first time, I'd do the exact same thing. There are some crazy people out there and it isn't wise to invite a virtual stranger to your home or go to their home.

Exactly. I'd demand the same thing, and I'm a straight male.

She may have sounded nice and friendly online, but an online persona does not necessarily mean the same behavior in the real world. So first meeting absolutely needs to be somewhere public.

[mopinko]

157. police stations are opening their premises for craig's list meets.

women are expected to prevent their own rapes, somehow, and when she tries to meet those expectations, she gets bullshit.
if you were selling me a used car, i wouldnt do this.
if you were selling me a washing machine, i wouldnt do this.

why the hell should i risk my life? and why the hell should it hurt your feelings to be mistrusted by someone you HAVE NEVER MET BEFORE?

i wish i could say i dont believe this conversation is going this way here, but i am not even surprised.

[treestar]

91. He could just meet her in public

The first time. Like a reason able person. That's the problem with the cartoon. Who would even bother to explain to a creep like that who expects the first meeting to be at his place

[TygrBright]

95. Bad timing, bad choice of places to make this theoretically valid point.

In a very general way, of course you are correct. The more conscientiously (and honestly) we tell each other about our feelings, why we respond the way we're responding, and so on, the more likely we are to build a species that communicates well, values empathy, and exhibits respect among individuals.

However, kindly consider a few things that modify this general principle:

First, where there is an unequal power dynamic: In any interaction where one individual by virtue of position, gender, status, race, or other factor, has a greater power to harm the other person, it's not always a good idea for the one from the default-less-powerful stance to expose vulnerability by a frank and open discussion of feelings.

This also holds true in interactions where either party has been victimized by manipulative and/or passive/aggressive exploitation of their feelings by other individual(s) in the past. It's something of an unreasonable expectation for someone who's experienced such interactions to take the initiative in exposing themselves to it again.

This is not to say it's not a noble act and indicative of laudable spiritual and psychological balance and strength to rise above such experience, or to ignore one's status as default-less-powerful, and take the risk of conscientiously and honestly sharing feelings with the intent of benefiting someone else by providing them with useful information and perspective and a chance to empathize.

But it's still not a reasonable expectation.

Decades ago I had little experience in interacting with people of other races-- I was raised in a very homogeneous community, and being white, I absorbed the racism of my culture without even being conscious of it. Even though I was raised a classic liberal, a believer in civil rights and a supporter of equality, a child of people who would never knowingly or consciously discriminate, a whole bevy of racist assumptions, experiences, and expectations were part of my operating system, just because of the culture in which I was raised.

But as a naive young idealist, I wanted to exhibit how not-racist I was to the black people I began encountering, at University, and in the workplace. I wanted them to know I was on their side, I supported their struggle, etc. I asked questions-- I wanted them to cut me slack when I unwittingly said something or acted offensively, and tell me what was offensive and help me avoid that in the future.

You know what? A few of them, kindly, did so. A few of them, exasperatedly, did so.

But the one who made a real impression on me? The one who pushed me past the "I'm not a racist, I have good intentions" barrier, to understanding and trying to deal with my own racism?

THAT person was the young man who told me "You know, it's not my responsibility to educate you about racism. It's not the responsibility of any person of color to educate any or all white people about racism. I, for one, am tired of having to act like it's not your fault you're white and therefore you are owed my time and attention in explaining everything to you very kindly and considerately as though you, and not I, are the one being victimized. If you want to understand racism, if you want to not be a racist, then make your own effort to read, to study, to think, to observe, and to change. There's plenty of stuff out there to help you."

And I did.

And I think that's the point in this cartoon, which I'll assume you missed because you are genuinely and benignly concerned with the issue of communications, without actually thinking past that to the nuances of power, experience, status, hierarchy, discrimination, etc., and how those things inform communication and change the nature of roles and responsibilities for the parties involved.

patiently,
Bright

[seabeyond]

96. ya dude. you are right, except you are not. i think that makes communication a little easier.

as you go thru your very communication to an enlightened people.

how honest in communication (misleading, challenging) is communication when we stroke ego before truth?

he is right, except he is not and here is why.

[TygrBright]

103. Aside from not being a dude, I take your point.

I'm right, except I'm not, and here is why.

I appreciate the correction!

ironically,
Bright

[seabeyond]

106. i know you are not a dude. i was taking your position talking to bonobo.

that is where i would have changed your conversation with him.

it was interesting.

[JTFrog]

99. How sad and predictable. n/t

[Buzz cook]

139. "What men fear most about women?

That they might get their feelings hurt"

"What women fear most about men?

That they might be killed by one"

Actually that's a paraphrase, not a direct quote.

[KitSileya]

140. So, lets use an analogy.

Say you and I have been talking about investing in some shares. We have decided to pool our money and buy the shares together to save on fees. I tell you to transfer money to my account, and I'll buy the shares in my name, and I'll pay you your share when the dividends come in. You answer that it'd be better if the shares were in both our names. I say that you just need to transfer the money to me, and I'll take care of everything. You say that at the very least you want something in writing that spells out everything because that is safer for both of us. I get offended, accusing you of calling me a thief.

Of course, that makes it your job to explain why you are not calling me a thief, soothe my feelings, use time and energy to unruffle my feathers, right? You'd keep trying to make me understand and then go through with the deal. You wouldn't tell me nevernomind about the share deal, you've changed your mind. After all, we're talking human relations here, after all.

[thucythucy]

147. And yet here on this thread

you've been asked to respond to scenarios that would put you in a somewhat analogous situation as the cartoonist, and thus far you haven't responded. So aren't you now refusing to put any "effort" into communicating on this topic?

Just a quick recap: I asked if you'd be willing to share personal financial information with someone before or on a first date--you know, credit card numbers, bank account number and PIN, social security number etc. And if not, should we then assume that you're accusing the person asking of being a thief?

Still curious to know your reply.

[geek tragedy]

151. Lol. Guy acts creepy and disregards woman's well-founded safety concerns, and it becomes

"both sides do it"

No one implied the guy in the cartoon was a rapist, except for the guy in the cartoon.

[Glassunion]

162. If HE understood her feelings HE would not have HIS feelings.

I have (many, many, many moons ago) had similar thoughts. But I never felt like a creep.

I once dated this lovely lady. A nursing student. She at first seemed a bit paranoid, about every little thing: Where we met, how we got there, how we would get home, what time everything would happen, etc... At the time, the first time she asked me to meet her at her place, she made sure her folks were home (we were quite young) when I arrived. The thing is, when arranging our dates she would say that she was more comfortable meeting me there or that she would prefer that she have her sister drop her off, or whatever.

You see, she had feelings. And those feelings have absolute zero to do with me. If she felt one way or another, it is no reflection on me. But, 100% she felt that way. So to give it more than a glancing thought, I'd have to think about why she felt that way. She was afraid, or concerned about her safety. And any real man would also be concerned, but also attentive to making sure she feels safe. So if you have to meet her somewhere, or someone else tags along as a chaperone... So fucking what? She feels safe, and you get the pleasure of her company.

[Glassunion]

166. Actually... On a re-read of your post, I'd like to point out a shitty point that was made.

It is not the man's job to understand her feelings and it is not her job to understand his feelings. That is where the EFFORT needed to form bonds comes in. Take it or leave it. That's human relations.

Actually, as a man, I'd like to say that quote is nothing that a real man would say. In fact it pisses me off. There are iron qualities (IMHO) that go with manhood. Be they: the positive virtue of resolution, of not shirking the rough work, or an indomitable will, but also that of wisdom and understanding.

I feel it is imperative to understand her feelings and for her to understand mine. That is the foundation of a relationship. Be it one that is new or old. A strong foundation of understanding elevates the relationship beyond being aquatinted, into a realm of understanding. In the realm of understanding is where love, compassion, drive, desire, and passion are found. I have the same relationship you describe with the dude who changes the oil in my car.

[Scootaloo]

177. Here, let me graph out your post so everyone can see the complex message you presented, visually

[historylovr]

6. K & R

[samsingh]

7. always drink from the bottle - don't do mixed drinks and don't accept a drink. keep your eye

on the liquid from the bottle to the glass.

[seabeyond]

13. take it into the toilet with you to guard that drink. dance? well buy a new drink every time you get

off the dance floor and throw the rest of the other drink away. put hand over drink when turning your head, taking eyes off the drink, to talk with someone else.

ya. all that.

or else, .... it is your fault.

btw... drinking from a bottle, a beverage you do not like, like beer, instead of wine, compromising what you enjoy, to avoid rape? make sure the bottle is caped and you are opening, not the bar tender or anyone else.

oh, and then as we are told by a poster above. implementing any action to avoid the drug in a drink, preventing our unconscious rape, we also have to make sure we do not hurt the bartender or any other mans feelers.

[samsingh]

17. it's not about fault but protection. the fault is the idiots who would put something in anyone's

drink

[seabeyond]

25. your right. and lets also look at the ridiculousness that a woman has to go thru, to

enjoy a night out without the risk of being drugged to unconscious to be raped.

[samsingh]

116. you are absolutely correct.

[Bonobo]

21. No, hurt anyone's feelings that you want.

It's all up to you.

But don't expect your feelings to be considered in that case.

It's a lonely enough world out there without people trying to defend their rights to hurt innocent people's feelings.

[YoungDemCA]

67. As XemaSab pointed out, the guy in this scenario is acting like a creep

If he's "innocent", he sure isn't reassuring the woman of his innocence.

[jeff47]

138. And she's telepathic, so she knows he's innocent, right?

How, specifically, is she supposed to know he's innocent? Telepathy?

"Well, she should trust him until he gives her a reason to not trust"? Such as him ignoring her feelings and insisting that she risk a dangerous situation with a near-stranger?

[gollygee]

149. He was pressuring her into being alone with him the first time she meets him when she stated

very clearly she was not comfortable with that. He pressured her a couple of times and tried to lay a guilt trip on her, saying she was calling him a potential rapist, which also means he understands the danger of women meeting men they don't know alone.

He is not an "innocent person." He's a jerk, just based upon the exchange in the comic. No woman who is thinking things through would go anywhere with him or give him any personal information at all after that.

[NJCher]

9. Good discussion of risk

Certainly gave me a lot to think about.

I'd never have spent more than a minute with a guy who wanted me to come to his house on the first date. It would be something like, "No." And then I would have other things to do, and I'd be gone.



Cher

[central scrutinizer]

20. other risk assessments men don't have to make

I work on a university campus. In the winter it is dark at 5:00 pm. If a man needs to study, he walks to the library, without a care in the world. If a woman needs to study, she has to call the University shuttle, SafeRide, find a friend to accompany her, or wait until the next day.

[MannyGoldstein]

31. I'm just curious, is this in a generally-unsafe area?

Back when I was in college, women weren't concerned about walking alone at night on- or off-campus, but my school was pretty rural.

[seabeyond]

53. really manny? when was your day? and how often did you have conversation with these women?

how do you know women were not concerned?

cause all the women i knew in early 80's were concerned. we have many conversations thru out. from us to the school, and further.

we were very much concerned. but then, we were the ones experiencing the fear and violence, right? not you, manny. arent you a man? checking, cause who knows.

but.... a year ago, i wrote an OP on the fear on college campus, oh... parking lots of malls, ect..... cause we were being raped and killed.

so, when and where manny, were these fearless, non concerned, very young women? first time out and about, on their own.?

[YoungDemCA]

59. Don't mind him

He's too busy attacking Democrats on a Democratic message board, and telling women and minorities how they "should" behave. Because he's sooooo concerned about "income inequality."

Priorities, I tell ya. Not enough time in the day for one guy to talk about "divisive" issues, when there are MORE IMPORTANT issues to consider. Uh huh.

[seabeyond]

82. yes young. i learned a while ago, out of blue, that manny wasnt too concerned about my issues.

i never concerned myself with him, prior. i avoid the whine posts, about dems, being all alike, as my rights were being denied, and laws were not being implemented against man that did me harm. lol

so, after that one experience, learning he did not give a shit, i have, hence, ignored manny. but, .... i do hear, there are issues about this. i dunno. dont follow the politics of the third wave, both parties are the smaame, ..... shit.

my priority is the fuckin supreme crt.

[Number23]

197. Yep, yep and yep. ALL of that.

[MannyGoldstein]

123. 1980s, I knew many,

and am married to one.

So, really.

If it would make you happy, I'll be seing a bunch of them this weekednd and can do a poll. Let me know.

(No need for the obnoxious tone.)

[seabeyond]

126. oboxious? you acuse me of being obnoxious? you are a man telling me us young women were not

concerned about rape or violence committed on us, back in MY day. and i am the obnoxious one? lol

[MannyGoldstein]

128. That's absolutely not what I said.

No need to put words in my mouth.

[seabeyond]

130. oh, manny. ya. whatever.

[hrmjustin]

134. This survived a jury 1 to 6.

[Auggie]

135. Jury comments, FYI

On Tue Apr 7, 2015, 10:10 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

oh, manny. ya. whatever.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6470079

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Why does DU have to be like this?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Apr 7, 2015, 10:22 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Bullshit alert! Manny is no victim here! And too damn bad!
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't know why DU has to be like this. It is annoying, but this post isn't hide worthy. It is annoying and dismissive, but not offensive.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: As much as I generally try to keep away from any thread in which seabeyond is posting because it is generally horrible and she takes things to places that serve her own agenda that have nothing to do with what is actually being said, I don't see much here that makes this hide worthy. But I'm still tempted.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Frustrated yet civil response to an argument IMO.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alerter.

[cui bono]

200. All you have to do is watch the news to see how many assaults occur on women on campuses.

Come on Manny... you are not unaware of the world.

[tblue37]

207. I started college in 1968, and we were VERY concerned about rape, and I knew women who were raped

in 1970 and 1971. On a college campus in the midwest.

[Hekate]

122. I was in college in the late '60s, and it was known there was some creep hanging out in the stacks

... in the library at night. Every woman knew the risk of walking alone at night.

I worked at another university in the '80s and '90s, and once when my boss kept me late during the winter I was stranded on an almost empty campus with my car half a mile away. I called the bike patrol escort, you betcha. Every woman knew about the rapes.

The only thing that made you assume it was safe then or now, Manny, was your gender and ignorance.

[MannyGoldstein]

125. I guess I went to school with many ignorant women, then. nt

[LanternWaste]

137. Indeed, you're 'guessing.'

Indeed, you're 'guessing.'

[Hekate]

158. Did you ever ask? We internalize the message, yet don't want to make men uncomfortable....

...by introducing the topic. Besides, introducing the topic tends to evoke the kinds of responses that are all over this thread.

But you're such a Sensitive New Age Guy I just want to pat your rosy cheeks you're so adorable.

[MannyGoldstein]

163. I just asked my wife, who I met at school...

her response was "maybe sometimes after 10 or 11 but not enough to stop me from going anywhere alone."

I had a pretty large group of friends, male and female, it was a seriously sprawling campus and I'm reasonably confident that people would have asked for someone to walk them home if anyone was particularly concerned.

[seabeyond]

172. so the answer is yes.... she was concerned. be it ten at night, or making trip while concerned.

the answer from your wife is YES.... she was concerned. thank you. as every woman i knew was conscious and aware, and two women on this subthread told you, we were.

gracious of you to give us women confirmation in our own experience.

[MannyGoldstein]

180. Well, if you look at my original question, and

the post it addressed, it's all pretty clear.

[seabeyond]

127. wow. now he slights all women, dismissing your post, while accusing me of obnoxious! interesting. nt

[seabeyond]

129. oh oh oh, while the question is.... did you listen to the women of your time? while he

dismisses us women talking about our time. if i took info in as he does, i would thing it was free love of mutual respect, tippy thru the tulips in the early 80's also.

when we were just defining date rape. certainly not prosecuting, but discussing.... and the rape drug came into play. damn fine, to be told we had no concern.

aids anyone???

lay back and enjoy it jokes.

[Hekate]

131. I make it a practice to never engage with this particular poster....

I think M is not genuine in any of his posed beliefs. I'm not sorry I broke my own rule in this instance, but will now resume my norm. Suggest the same for you. There are now at least two posters in this thread who are trying to goad us wimminz into saying something rash and alertable. Don't let them, seabeyond.

[seabeyond]

133. i hear ya.... kinda my position as well.

[AtheistCrusader]

141. Jury Results.

On Tue Apr 7, 2015, 01:42 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I make it a practice to never engage with this particular poster....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6470110

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Personal attack, calling Manny a liar: "I think M is not genuine in any of his posed beliefs." Hide it.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Apr 7, 2015, 01:49 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "not genuine in any of his posed beliefs" ! = "liar", although I can see how the alerter might have thought so.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think Manny is sincere, he certainly knows how to tweak people but even then claiming you do not believe a person to be sincere is a valid statement. It's the same as saying/implying someone is a paid troll or anyone of the dozen or so common ad hominem attacks that appear on DU hundreds of times a day.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: It is clearly a call out...and a personal attack...hide it.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Personal attack.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Manny's whole schtick is parody. I enjoy it, personally, but it's bound to get criticized by people who disagree. No hide from me.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I have a great deal of respect for Manny, Seabeyond, and Hekate. Voting to leave it, and let them work it out. Stop fighting, ya'll. Same team.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Hekate]

142. Thank you for letting me know of this event and its result

>nods politely<

[gollygee]

150. When were you in college?

We had a serial rapist in my college, who ended up murdering someone. The school set up escorts so women wouldn't have to walk alone, and then one of the escorts raped someone. I went to college in the late 80s. We were definitely concerned about walking alone.

You know, the more I think of this, the more I think you just aren't aware of how worried women were. Women have been worried about walking alone at night for a very very long time. I assume you aren't in your 80s, but even then, women might very well have been worried about walking alone at night back then too.

[MannyGoldstein]

153. All answered above. nt

[thucythucy]

193. Rape doesn't just happen in "unsafe areas."

When he says "my place" it could be in the most secure, well guarded gated community, and she'd still be at risk of rape or worse--if she's alone in this guy's residence with no way out and no way to get home.

ANY place that is isolated, without witnesses, and with no escape can be an "unsafe area." For instance, Roman Polanski's hot tub, as just one obvious example.

[MannyGoldstein]

214. I didn't write that it does,

or at least that I didn't mean to imply that; please forgive me if I implied otherwise.

The women I knew in college were, IIRC, much more concerned about date rape than assaults while out walking around. I know that they often planned to meet up with new friends in public areas, usually big parties (we had lots of 'em), but I don't recall any women being particularly concerned about walking outside. That's my wife's recollection too, and we met at school.

[MannyGoldstein]

30. If someone needs to be educated on the importance of

meeting in a public place... then I agree, they are nitwits and should be avoided.

[stone space]

56. If I were single, and wanted to meet a woman who I only knew over the internet, then I'd...

...want to meet in a public place, also.

Just like if I did the Craig's List thingie (which I don't), I'd take advantage of offers by various police departments to meet there to exchange goods, if such an option is available.

If that offends the other person, I'd just consider that as a red flag telling me not to meet this individual at all.

[LanternWaste]

35. It's odd that many of the same people who tell us that females must take on a measure...

It's odd that many of the same people who tell us time and time again that females must take on a measure of responsibility to prevent rape from occurring in our culture get personally insulted when females do take on that measure of insurance.

[seabeyond]

92. exacty. exactly latern. thank you. i sit in the duh... of this. and this is far from the first

time. we have had this repeated conversation, with the same duh factor. lol

[fishwax]

212. +1

[tclambert]

72. Hey, the man is facing risks, too! She might laugh at him.

[Hekate]

159. Excellent point there.

[cwydro]

74. Very good.

So glad that these are issues I never faced as a gay woman.

(though there are female stalkers for sure.)

[ZombieHorde]

78. That's a great cartoon. nt

[guillaumeb]

81. My mother was female

my wife is female,
my daughters are female,
my sisters are female,
many of my cousins are female,
as are many of my friends.
So sad that they have to worry that ANY encounter could end in rape, and that many encounters do end in rape.

Women rarely get sexually assaulted by other women, so that leaves men as the predators. Is there any wonder that women want to be cautious? And yes, this particular situation involves two strangers but women are assaulted by family members also.

As a man, these calculations have never been ones I have engaged in. I can try to imagine what they are like, but cannot really feel the need. Just as being white I cannot understand the experience of being black.

A disturbing post, but thank you for the post.

[redgreenandblue]

83. Meh. I'm a guy and I wouldn't meet a woman I met on the internet at her house either.

Or at my house for that matter.

For all I know, her three brothers are waiting to kill me and sell my organs.

The risk analysis in the cartoon is sound and it works both ways. Trust is a complex thing and it usually takes time to develop. Trusting people up front is usually not a good idea.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

109. I bet there are far more guys who fall for the "meet me at my house" stuff than women

Why just the other day....

http://www.record-eagle.com/news/local_news/man-lured-to-home-attacked-with-bat/article_7921a890-4b23-5739-b5a9-8c9293c592af.html

[Orrex]

86. I don't know if that cartoon dude is a rapist, but he's clearly an asshole.

She's better off without him.

[treestar]

89. The guy who insists on those conditions

For a first meeting IS a predator.

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. Do you think that the fear of rape is greater than it was 30 years ago?

if so, why?

[Brickbat]

94. Hard to say about fear. The awareness is certainly greater, as well as the understanding of what

rape is.

[lumberjack_jeff]

98. When I think back to that time, perhaps people were naive.

I suspect that advice to increase awareness and vigilance are why rape victimization has declined so steeply since then.

So in that sense pervasive fear messages may be helping, but it's hard to ignore the fact that losing the default assumption of humanity has a cost as well.

In general, I think her vigilance and risk assessment are wise, but both parties in the cartoon now have a diminished respect for the opposite sex.

For her part, instead of the insult, she could have said exactly what she "was thinking about saying".

[seabeyond]

101. how steeply factoring in mans manipulation of numbers, raPE KITS IGNORED, police reports dismissed,

filings not done and many other factors?.....

[seabeyond]

104. really jeff, lets now take this conversation to false rapes, decline of rapes, dismissing rapes.

cause we just had the conversation for the woman hurting the mans feelings, making man the priority.

it is time to reduce it to , all women are liars.

biology.

dna

mens rights, too!!! you feminazis that are emotionally unbalanced.

[Brickbat]

105. "Losing the default assumption of humanity has a cost as well."

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. It sounds like you're saying that greater awareness of what more men than expected do to more women than expected, and the subsequent awareness of how those women are treated in the media and legal system, brings everyone down because then all women suspect all men of similar behavior until proven otherwise.

[lumberjack_jeff]

110. Yes. The kind of risk assessment described by the cartoon has a cost.

When I was young 45 years ago, I was completely naive. Sure! I'll help you find your puppy! Luckily for me, most people are basically good.

As time goes on, I add protective layers. When selling something on craigslist, I now ask to meet on neutral, public, ground. Why? Not because of personal experience, but because of shared anecdotes.

Those protective layers serve to (this isn't the word I'm looking for, but it is as close as I have right now) dehumanize others. They're not people just like me, they're potential risk vectors.

I imagine what it's like to be equipped from childhood with all these protective layers. "Avoid those people, those neighborhoods. Assume they're bad unless and until proven otherwise." It may be good safety advice, and may be why people really are so much safer than they have ever been, but I think it's no coincidence that the politics of fear resonates so strongly with americans.

[Brickbat]

120. So the greater awareness of the prevalence of actual occurances of rape is bad because it brings

us all down?

[lumberjack_jeff]

136. a) I doubt that we are all aware of the actual prevalence.

b) Yes. Much like "awareness of the prevalence" of crime in black neighborhoods has a downside because it promulgates stereotypes.

When a woman is asked "Were you raped in the last 12 months?", she is 85% less likely today to answer "yes" than she did in 1980. The relationship between risk and perceived risk appears to be inverse.

Stranger danger may very well be an effective means to promote safety. It also may very well be an effective means to keep everyone strangers.

One other thing. I find it interesting to juxtapose this conversation with this one.

[cui bono]

203. The man had no compassion or humanity from the get go. He ignored her extremely reasonable request

to meet in a public place repeatedly, expecting her to put herself in the position of being in a stranger's home, perhaps in an unknown area of town, with no transportation should she need to make a quick getaway - he was demanding that she put herself in a potentially dangerous situation. He had no concern of her feelings from the start.

She already said what she needed to say - that she wanted to meet in a public space - and he acted like a bull-headed predator. Why would you expect her to have a discussion with someone like him?

[lumberjack_jeff]

223. As a cartoon, I anticipate this was a work of fiction.

I do think that it's interesting that in this imaginary scenario, an online chat turns into a face to face when it's time to call him an asshole.

"What would I expect"? As a work of fiction, I expect her to gun the predator down with a ray-gun, then again when it turns out he was a zombie.

I prefer my revenge fantasies a little more sensational, I guess.

[derby378]

107. While the overall number of violent crimes is dropping in Dallas, rape is on the rise

Wish I knew why, because rape was also on the decline for a while, too.

That said, if a woman wants to meet me somewhere public or at her place, I'm all for it. My place is a mess. I should do something about that one day.

[BlueJazz]

102. I suppose it's a good thing I'm not a woman. After the 3rd line, I'd tell him to politely fuck Off.

I mean, go to his house on the first date?? You've GOT to be kidding.

[seabeyond]

108. then she is just the b word. no two ways about it. why wont they be nicer to the "nice" guys.

tone, sugar honey, something......

i think i about covered all of them .... in this thread.

[BlueJazz]

115. It's a full moon and this wonderful guy has invited me over to his den (Ok..Ok..He's part werewolf)

But...he's a such a NICE werewolf.

[seabeyond]

117. you know. women have rape fantasies, after all....

more

[seabeyond]

111. ya ya ya. one more. women rape men too.... i have heard it twice this weekend from young men. ...

and have been hearing it from mra'rs on line. something going thru a FB feed or twitter or something? cause i am learning the last week or two, .... the women are raping the men equally.

new porn? new porn theme? movies? tv shows? what?

that is the new one to dismiss womens rape.

[Rex]

119. Maybe it is just me, but I find it creepy that he would want to take her home for a first date.

I've always met a first date in a public place like a restaurant or a club (I hate bars). If I was a woman, I would be very creeped out and wary of a man that insisted we go back to his place over and over again. That would be a deal breaker for the date itself. Even if he agreed to finally meet in public.

As far as the women raping men line...MRA talking points. Defensive knee jerk reaction to something that should not be about them. However the reply is defensive in nature so one does have to assume there is a reason for their instant reaction.

IMO.

[Chalco]

113. Louis CK says it best

I know this has been posted before, but it is apropos to this discussion. This guy gets it.


[link:

|

[seabeyond]

118. +1. nt

[wryter2000]

154. That is so awesome

And he made it funny.

[riderinthestorm]

178. I'm late to this party but this guy says it all! Big K&R! Nt

[Hekate]

114. Exceptionally powerful, truthful, and real. Should be required reading. nt

[Ratty]

121. Risk vs consequences. A very succinct and compelling way to put it

Risk is low: you're probably not a predator. But consequences are very very high. It looks like she was risking a date with a total asshole at a minimum.

[KamaAina]

143. Yes! It has someone who uses a wheelchair!

[thucythucy]

148. Yes!

[Prism]

152. I'd have been done, too.

Always meet in a public place on a first date. Always, always. Be careful of alcohol consumption in the presence of strangers. Do not let someone you don't know very well know where you live until a level of trust and familiarity has been established.

These are solid human rules, but women especially.

Guy in the comic was waving the reddest of flags and came off as a Grade A Creeper.

[shaayecanaan]

155. I don't see what's so difficult here

he could be a rapist, she could be a bunny boiler. Best to just meet down the pub.

[MannyGoldstein]

165. No sturm und drang in that.

Where's the fun in that?

[shaayecanaan]

167. I know, I don't know what came over me

I'm usually a bit of a shit stirrer.

[seabeyond]

175. except you participated in the crap. now you distance yourself from the crap.

[MannyGoldstein]

179. I simply asked a question I was curious about.

Whereupon I was personally attacked with explosive diarrhea, and stupidly felt compelled to respond.

Yup, I'm guilty.

[seabeyond]

183. charming. you dismiss women, then ignore women, then insult women. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

186. I never dismiss, ignore, nor insult women as a whole.

Nor even as individuals, except when they've earned it.

[Brickbat]

170. Exactly. It's painful when some don't realize that, and take offense.

[hopemountain]

171. is this available in print?

it is excellent. thank you for your good work.

[Brickbat]

174. I can't believe I didn't include the link!

(It's not my work.)

http://www.robot-hugs.com/risky-date/

[MrModerate]

176. Yes, living with rape culture *does* seem insanely complicated . . .

When I was an unattached male in college many, many moons ago, I'm pretty sure the women I dated did not make (or feel they had to make) such elaborate calculations to be safe.

As a guy, when setting up a first date, I always let the lady take the lead on what the starting point would be.

In my little college town back then, I assume that the incidence of unwanted sexual advances was about the same as now. Over my years in various educational institutions I heard of one instance of date rape among my circle, and the only other reports were stranger rape that made the papers.

What's happened? Can someone who's still in the demographic enlighten me? Did no one talk about what was really going on back then? Did victims of assault simply say nothing? Have relationships between the sexes fundamentally changed?

[seabeyond]

184. before teh 80's there was not even a name for it, wasnt called rape. date rape only started

being discussed late 70's early 80's. before that, before girls were educated, we simply accepted the blame.

[MrModerate]

187. Well, I was on the cusp of the 70s . . .

The one case I mentioned was clearly rape (even then), but was forgiven by our "circle" because both parties had been tripping their brains out.

Rightly or wrongly, even the woman involved seemed to slough it off, and both people stayed in the circle (Of course, I neither knew nor would have had the emotional maturity to understand what was going on in her head.)

However, even today I think such a situation would muddy the waters.

[thucythucy]

185. I'm sorry to say I think most men then

and many men now were and are absolutely clueless about "the elaborate calculations" that women make to avoid being raped, and the experiences so many have had surviving rape, assault, and harassment.

I'm getting on in years, but even though, during my adolescence and young adulthood, rape and sexual violence were Taboo subjects, almost never discussed, I was aware, even back then of:

one family where a young girl was being raped by her older brother (father was a devout Christian, big mucky muck in their church, therefore no one dared bring it up out loud);

two teenaged girls I knew who were raped hitch hiking, consensus was: it's their own damn fault;

one good friend raped on a date;

another good friend raped by a college professor after she was invited into his office after class....

another friend raped in a parking lot after someone put something in her drink.

And those are only the stories people told me. I'm sure there were lots of girls and women (and some boys and men) who told no one, for all the obvious reasons.

Since then I've only heard many more stories.

Most women, in my experience, don't talk about this around men because men, especially back then, almost invariably got defensive or angry. Defensive as in "it can't possibly be that bad" or "men have it tough too you know" (and look up thread to see what I mean). Angry as in: "If I ever see that guy I'll cut his balls off" or "how could you have been so stupid?" (Have heard both responses to women disclosing about rape). There was also the "spoiled goods" interpretation of rape, not to mention, "that only happens to THOSE kind of girls."

So I think your last paragraph has it right. No one, or very few people, talked about what was "really going on back then." Lots of times it wasn't even recognized as rape (often still isn't--"legitimate" vs. "not really rape&quot . It was just accepted as the normal background noise of a culture where men were encouraged "to score" as much as they could, and where "no means no" wasn't even a slogan, much less accepted as a rule to live by.

Which is why Susan Brownmiller had to write her book, why the women's anti-rape movement had to start as a grassroots effort, why rape crisis centers started as volunteer organizations keeping themselves arms length from the (male dominated) police.

Have you read Brownmiller's book? People grouse about various aspects of it, but it's really an excellent primer on how rape has been treated through the ages. It had quite the impact when it was first published--because finally someone was actually writing about "what was really going on."

Best wishes.

[MrModerate]

188. I marvel at the innocence of my cohort . . .

No way did we think our female peers were subject to such things.

And interestingly, my 21-year-old daughter is also cautious (mostly 'dating' only in groups), but has never suggested that the situation is that perilous or complex. Maybe she's just protecting Daddy's blood pressure.

[thucythucy]

191. I wish you and your daughter

all the luck and good fortune in the world, and fervently hope she's able to avoid all these things I've mentioned. And if something awful should happen, I hope she and you will be able to access whatever resources you need for your recovery.

It's a sad world where people have to be so cautious. Hopefully someday, if enough of us work at it, it will be less so.

Best wishes.

[ncjustice80]

189. "I'll cut his balls off" seems like an appropriate response.

Sometimes Im surprised there isnt more vigilantiism/revenge retaliation around sexual assaults. I guess men rrally dont care about rape

[thucythucy]

190. Approproate perhaps,

but not always helpful to the survivor. Now she has to worry about someone she cares about either a) getting hurt in a fight or confrontation or b) going to jail for going after the rapist. She has to not only take care of herself, and deal with the rape, but now has to calm down the guy who's fuming about what happened. Lots of survivors, knowing what might happen, choose not to disclose. Also, they know how much this information might hurt a father, brother, husband, lover.

Just another way rape and rapists mess up all our lives.

[ncjustice80]

209. So what you re saying is...

Go cut assholes balls off in secret

[lexington filly]

194. This was great! Am sending it to all my female family members. Thank you.

[BeanMusical]

196. Kick and R.

[raven mad]

206. Umm................ no, I don't like this.

I have been raped, and it wasn't by a date.

This is neither amusing or accurate.

[Brickbat]

210. I don't think it's supposed to match every rape experience.

I believe it does, however, capture the difficulty many people deal with when trying to navigate rape culture while dating.

I could have worded the OP headline more effectively.

[seabeyond]

220. off putting at the least, men telling us we did not have to concern ourselves with rape in the past.

and what is happening today, they ask?

why must we have this cartoon!

really men? you are really in quandary about women's experience in the past, with women's sexual abuse?

i am looking at this thread, after reading another thread aout yes means yes campaign. a couple men, that are always mra talking points, snicker and mocking.

it is not a joke. not funny.

as i listen to more men, tell us, us women did not FEAR rape in the past, on college campus.

wtf is going on.

you know what guys? if men did not insist they did not know rape when they see it. and there really is not an issue anyway. like chanting no means yes on our college campus's, fuckin an unconscious girl is wrong, our boys ask?, get 'er drunk, video distribute get off on, her rape.

look at this thread, and the replies. and who makes these statements.