Hologram replaces Edward Snowden statue in Brooklyn park....cool

[Ichingcarpenter]

NEW YORK — Hours after police removed an illicit bust of Edward Snowden from its perch in a Brooklyn park on Monday, artists replaced it with a hologram.






The group of artists — who collectively call themselves "The Illuminator" and are not related to the trio behind the original sculpture — used laptops and projection equipment to cast an image of Snowden in a haze of smoke at the spot where the sculpture once stood.

They say the action was a message of defiance aimed at the authorities who "censored" the piece, according to a tumblr post.






"Our feeling is that while the State may remove any material artifacts that speak in defiance against incumbent authoritarianism, the acts of resistance remain in the public consciousness. And it is in sharing that act of defiance that hope resides."


http://mashable.com/2015/04/07/edward-snowden-hologram-statue-brooklyn/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link

[bravenak]

1. I refuse to laugh.

[msanthrope]

7. I'm not laughing at the defacement of a grave site, either. nt

[ronnie624]

16. It isn't a grave site.

It is a site where a fort once stood. More often than not, it was probably used to slaughter native peoples, anyway. The victims from the British prison ships, were actually buried along the river.

People should try to resist the urge to glorify militarism. That sort of emotionalism is truly unhealthy for human society.

[msanthrope]

19. It is a gravesite. I'm well familiar with it, and the crypt that is there. Jeebus.....

5 seconds of google will get you the images.....

And you call this glorifying militarism???????? If you knew ANYTHING about the history of that monument, you'd know those were men and women, many civilians. The British occupied NYC, and were indiscriminate as to who they imprisoned.

[ronnie624]

47. I didn't need google.

I simply clicked on the links provided in the article.

http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/fort-greene-park/monuments/1222

Building a tomb many years later on the site, does add a dose of solemnity to the glorification of war, I suppose, but you have worked yourself into such a tizzy, that you're scarcely coherent.

[msanthrope]

52. I have no problem memorializing those New Yorkers who died as British prisoners. Why do you? nt

[ronnie624]

59. Problem?

I have no idea what you're talking about. You're getting highly emotional over icons that commemorate events occurring more than two hundred years ago, and that hold little to no significance to you, now. The ever increasing power of the national security/surveillance state is actually much more important to you, whether you choose to believe it or not

[nashville_brook]

120. Results of jury service -->

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Apr 7, 2015, 03:25 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I did not find these descriptions in the post. Perhaps in a different exchange. One can always rebut the post.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Looks like someone is fishing for a favorable jury.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerter is reading something into the post that is not there.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[BeanMusical]

126. OFFS. Someone alerted on this?

[George II]

60. The gravesite for hundreds of civilians is NOT a "glorification of war"....

From the NYC Parks Department website:

The remains of the prisoners were moved to the site in 1873 into the newly created 25 by 11 foot brick vault. Twenty-two boxes, containing a mere fraction of total volume of remains, were interred in the vault. Towards the end of the 19th century, a diverse group of interests including the federal government, municipal and state governments, private societies, and donors, began a campaign for a permanent monument to the prison ship martyrs. In 1905 the renowned architectural firm of McKim, Mead and White was hired to design a new entrance to the crypt and a wide granite stairway leading to a plaza on top of the hill. From its center rose a freestanding Doric column crowned by a bronze lantern. President-elect William Howard Taft attended the monument’s dedication in 1908.

[billhicks76]

177. Snowden Is A Hero

And that's what matters to me. This was a great way of getting attention to that fact. And of course it's very creative applying optics for this cause.

[Major Nikon]

116. Results...

On Tue Apr 7, 2015, 04:01 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I didn't need google.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6470168

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster has resorted to abusive personal insult after being proven wrong with a polite rebuttal. To then say "...you have worked yourself into such a tizzy, that you're scarcely coherent" is rude and hurtful, and it is over-the-top. WTF is wrong with "My mistake, thanks for correcting me?" Instead, calling a completely coherent poster "scarcely coherent" (as though they are "crazy" or "unhinged&quot simply because they don't like their position is the act of a disruptive ass. Makes DU suck.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Apr 7, 2015, 04:07 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Rude personal attack...this is a no-brainer.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: another snowflake alert, ugh...
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Bogus alert. The person it is directed to would agree. Leave it.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: simmer down.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Condescension often does encourage such a reply. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[Hissyspit]

188. Maybe...

They want to make a connection between the past and present here?

[sabrina 1]

62. Thank you, but we know how Native American lives are 'valued' in this country so no surprise

to see them devalued and dismissed in favor of the glorification of all things military.

[ronnie624]

168. See what I mean?

Your highly emotional state over my criticism of a war memorial, has prompted you to deceitfully misquote me and hurl gratuitous insults at me.

What I actually said was, "That sort of emotionalism is truly unhealthy for human society", meaning the glorification of violence and war. Your post is an excellent example. Thanks.

[bravenak]

22. I find it creepy.

[msanthrope]

27. Pathetic. Kitty downthread suggested a photoshop

competition.....

[bravenak]

30. I have photoshop.

[msanthrope]

33. Snowden on the head of Lenin in Red Square?

[bravenak]

38. Give me a few.

[bravenak]

48. I got one. A gift.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[msanthrope]

50. OMG! That's great! nt

[bravenak]

51. He is too easy.

[KittyWampus]

54. SQUEE!

[bravenak]

57. Lol!

[randome]

58. Relax. You'll be fine.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Bobbie Jo]

72. That's a keeper.

[bravenak]

77. Save it for the next time you need to laugh.

Then bust it out!

[KittyWampus]

85. "bust" it out? No pun intended, I'm sure.

[bravenak]

86. I'm no Pinboy3niner but I'm kinda punny.

[randome]

87. You're sculpting quite a reputation for yourself.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[bravenak]

97. Thanks.

[KittyWampus]

101. carving out a niche for herself

[George II]

144. Looks like Keith Olbermann

[bravenak]

146. Does it? Hmm. Didn't notice that.

I don't think the bust looks enough like Snowden, myself. It could have been better.

[FSogol]

44. LOL: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"

[rpannier]

148. I do agree on that

As someone else posted further down the thread, it is sort of reminiscent of 1984 and the Big Brother images

[bravenak]

150. That or wizard of Oz. I found the wizard creepy too, though.

[Number23]

162. Girl, so glad it's not just me...

I was really wondering if I was the only person that had "Let the Eeeeeeagles SOOOOOARRR!!" playing in their heads upon looking at that foolishness.

I mean, his fans are enough to make the more than 50% of Americans that already don't like him dislike him even more.

[bravenak]

164. I'm pretty much done even trying to take it seriously.

It has turned into a farce of epic proportions. Holograms? I cannot take much more. This whole thing might just be a joke after all.

[Number23]

166. Oh, I'm sure the Edward Snowden action figure will be out soon

With a 'flash drive of freedom' for every 20th buyer!!

[bravenak]

173. Heh.

I bet they already have then.

[dixiegrrrrl]

2. Good for them....

[KoKo]

6. Absolutely...

[msanthrope]

8. Because defacing an historical grave site is applause worthy? You do realize that the war dead are

buried there?

They couldn't find a monument that wasn't a gravesite?

[NYC_SKP]

21. Please define "defacing".

Respectfully, I see this as two things:

An act of defiance against the police, who moved the bust (the bust might be considered a defacing).

And a tribute to Snowden and the cause, which uses a popular known monument to effect, without harming it.

I don't see the problem.

I would like to see it done elsewhere, either in addition to or instead of at this monument if it's offensive, but I support it in any event.

[msanthrope]

24. It's a gravesite, and you don't think projecting a face of someone who has nothing to do with it as

defacing?

It's like a teabagger deciding that what the heck---he's just gonna project Reagan's face at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier as a tribute.

As if the people who are dead and memorialized aren't important enough.......

[NYC_SKP]

31. No, I think "defacing" suggests permanent modification.

"Disrespecting" I can accept in this case.

"Defacing" rises to the level of a crime, like vandalism.

[msanthrope]

35. So you agree this was disrepecting a gravesite? nt

[NYC_SKP]

42. That's what I said, but I'm OK with it in light of the cause.

I don't think it's a crime, but I would call it insensitive. I don't expect it to last, and it's only at night, and I doubt that it strikingly interrupts anyone's thoughtful moment's of reflection

Now THIS is a crime:

People save all their lives to visit the nation's capitol and, hopefully, tour the monuments peacefully without idiots conducting a Flash Mob noisy dance "protest" to promote themselves.

THAT was a stupid ass crime.

[immoderate]

66. Dunno. These people not only saw Jefferson, they got to see government at work.

Uneventful is not necessarily better.

--imm

[NYC_SKP]

75. Well, you make a good point but generally, and having been there....

I like to think of that memorial in particular as a quiet and peaceful place.

Just as I don't care for loud music coming from cars, or in parks, or out of homes, I don't think a publicly supported public place is the venue for disruptive protests that don't even have a grievance to air.

Kind of like the Stanford brats that tied up the San Mateo bridge but didn't have a message, or the UC Santa Cruz kids that chained themselves and blocked dangerous and curvy highway 17 to protest tuition hikes.

That's just dangerous and stupid beyond the pale.

http://www.cityonahillpress.com/2015/03/31/update-highway-17-six-set-to-appear-in-court-april-8/

Protests on campus, no problem. Create a hazard and impact thousands of regular people who had nothing to do with your problem, ridiculous.

[F4lconF16]

89. Got a problem with this?

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2015/01/black-lives-matter-protesters-block-traffic-in-south-lake-union/

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/20/1358881/-Seattle-MLK-Day-Marchers-Block-Highway-99-Police-Arrest-19-Protesters

That is a legitimate form of protest if done in a reasonably safe manner. I fully support those that do.

If you're worried about upsetting a few people, sucks. There are bigger problems in this world. For those protesters who were making a statement about tuition hikes, that is a very real problem that is affecting thousands, if not millions of students in this country. They were making a much broader protest than simply talking about one school. If people got held up for a while...I'd invite you to read this (from the Seattle protesters):

“… to those those whose days are inconvenienced by our brief presence here, we remind you that the combination of anti-Black police brutality, disproportionate disciplining of Black youth by Seattle Public Schools, and rampant gentrification of historically Black neighborhoods has also been disruptive to Black communities in Seattle. Until Seattle and its police department stop brutalizing Black and Brown lives, allies will continue to engage in civil disobedience, and we will stand vocally and visibly in solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement.”

If you disagree with that, I could care less. As it says, "allies will continue to engage in civil disobedience" until the problem gets solved. You don't like us inconveniencing your life? Get out there and work to fix the problem.

Now, if they did protest without a message, that's just stupid--and also not a protest. That's trolling for attention.

Edit: also, keep their protests to campus? How nice. That'll really get people's attention. Sorry that they won't keep their problems out of your life.

[NYC_SKP]

92. Yes, they do more harm to the cause than good. Thoreau, Gandhi, and MLK would agree:

There is a right way, and an ignorant way, to protest.

THREE PRINCIPLES OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE: THOREAU, GANDHI, AND KING

The first principle is that you maintain respect for the rule of law even while disobeying the specific law that you perceive as unjust. Gandhi very much admired Socrates’ respect for Athenian law and his decision not to flee when his prison guards were bribed. King was always confident that American democracy would eventually treat his people as equal under the rule of law.

The second principle of civil disobedience follows from the first: you should plead guilty to any violation of the law. As Gandhi explains: “I am here to . . . submit cheerfully to the highest penalty that can be inflicted upon me for what in law is a deliberate crime and what appears to me to be the highest duty of a citizen.”

We have now arrived at the third principle of civil disobedience: you should attempt to convert your opponent by demonstrating the justice of your cause. Active nonviolence does not seek, as Gandhi says, “to defeat or humiliate your opponents, but to win their friendship and understanding.”

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/civil.htm

[F4lconF16]

96. MLK would disagree with non-violent direct action?

Are you kidding me?

Not finishing this conversation, because we've just jumped off the deep end. I don't think you have a clue what MLK was really like--a social radical, one who engaged in direct action constantly. Someone who pissed people off, who didn't confine his protests to places where people wouldn't see them. Someone who got in people's faces, angering them with the truth of his words and his actions. He was not a popular man when he was alive, because he didn't play nicely with what other people wanted. People hated him for his protests.

Ever heard of the Poor People's Campaign? Yeah, that was MLK. He literally wanted to shut down a city.

You don't know a damn thing about him.

What a pathetic way to usurp his legacy--decrying direct action, and pretending that that he would have supported that.

He would have been marching with those protestors every step of the way.

I'm done.

[NYC_SKP]

100. Two items, "if done in a reasonably safe manner" and "direct action"..

The UC Santa Cruz action was reckless and very dangerous, not to mention fucking stupid.

The Seattle actions might have been more safely conducted, I don't have a problem with traffic stops if done safely and with strong messaging.

Second:

The first principle is that you maintain respect for the rule of law even while disobeying the specific law that you perceive as unjust.

General lawlessness is not "direct action". Acting like an asshole to get on the news is not MLK style civil disobedience.

You might want to study up on "Direct Action" and "Civil Disobedience".

Pay careful attention to details and things NOT to do.

We both want the same things, I just want to make sure we do it effectively.

[NYC_SKP]

105. PS: "When it's planned out well, it's called "direct action""

When it's planned out well, it's called "direct action"

The problem is it often isn't planned out well. Shutting down I-93 would be a good example of direct action... if you were protesting the Big Dig. Shutting down a bridge would be a good example of direct action if you were, say, protesting the economic impact of bridge-and-tunnel commuters on the city. Interrupting people's brunch would be a good example of direct action if you were protesting the underpayment of dishwashers in posh restaurants.

However, for the past generation or so many activists seem to have forgotten the "direct" part of "direct action", and just want "loud action".

Take an as example the Montgomery Bus Boycott. That was direct action against the discriminatory regulations of the busses (yes, that's the plural, whatever spellcheck says). That's a sign of direct action: the form of the action itself delivers a message as well as causing economic disruption to the target. What was the bus boycott about? Busses. Now, what are the bridge blockages about? Most of the ones I've seen are about police violence against minorities. But the action is non-direct, so somebody has to tell me that.

Direct action in this case would be something like mass refusal to pay speeding tickets and citations, possibly disrupting speed traps or shift changes -- there are a lot of options, but this action, while loud, is not direct.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251392822#post54

Props to DU member, Recursion!

[Autumn]

46. I don't even see it as "Disrespecting". It's a public park,

visited by many. It's a hologram for pete's sake, not a bunch of pigeons shitting all over it.

[BeanMusical]

76. +1

[morningfog]

34. Projecting images is not defacement.

It is temporary, leaves no mark.

[msanthrope]

37. So you agree that placing the bust and letters yesterday was defacement?? nt

[morningfog]

40. It is certainly closer. I saw the bust and letters and wondered how they were affixed.

But holographic images are clearly not defacement.

[AtomicKitten]

74. Kinda like you are defacing and disrespecting this thread? /nt

[NYC_SKP]

102. .

oh no you dint.

[AtomicKitten]

103. .

[BeanMusical]

127. !

[Ichingcarpenter]

32. Photons

A photon is massless,[Note 3] has no electric charge,[11] and is stable. A photon has two possible polarization states. In the momentum representation, which is preferred in quantum field theory,


My photon gun will destroy this planet

[randome]

61. My neutrino gun will cancel out your pathetic little photons!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Ichingcarpenter]

71. shinning the light seems to upset you

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/migration_catalog/article25685739.ece/ALTERNATES/w300square/wikileaks

[randome]

80. No, I don't do upset. Mockery, sure. Passive-aggressive, sure. Upset? No.

The curtain has already fallen but that light is still on, as if it's searching for something, but the crowd is exiting the theater in single file.

A Snowden metaphor for your listening pleasure.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[BeanMusical]

82. I doubt it.

A photon has an electromagnetic field that can interact with charged particles - a neutrino has no charge and so unless it hits something (in a particles accelerator for example) head-on doesn't interact. It can penetrate vast thicknesses of material (like the Earth) without interaction.

[randome]

93. Paper, scissors, rock, then?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[bvar22]

133. Could happen.

I would like to see the Snowden hologram in every major American city.
The hard work has already been done. All that would be needed are the projectors
and a van to keep moving around.

[arcane1]

154. If I first heard of Snowden when the Travelling Hologram came to town, I'd be turned off by it.

It's just a bit too... something. Too worshippy, I guess. If I'd never heard of him, I would probably think of the group as a sort of cult and be immediately skeptical of whatever their message was, even though I wholeheartedly agree with it.

Whistle-blowing should be celebrated and encouraged, but this is a bit much. At least at present, when there hasn't been much of a change in society because of his actions. If that were to happen in the future, a bust or a statue might be more appropriate.

My two cents

[Marr]

39. How long have you had this consuming passion for protecting old burial sites?

Would I be correct in guessing... a day or so? lol.

[msanthrope]

45. As part of a reenactment group, which I've written about before on DU, I

have spent a great deal of time preserving old battlefield space and historical graves....including sites such as Antietam, and the Wilderness.

I will be in Belgium for the Bicentenaire.......it's cheating if you have to google what I'm talking about....

[Marr]

65. Ah, sensible. We wouldn't want people disrespecting burial sites with things like statues.

I mean, those things really get in the way when you're trying to play dress-up and tromp around.

[Autumn]

78. I saw one of those reenactments once. You pegged it, playing dress-up and tromping around.

A hologram? Bad! Playing dress up and "battles" on or near "sacred" sites? Good!

[msanthrope]

95. Indeed.....playing dress up to commemorate these guys.......

Last edited Tue Apr 7, 2015, 03:47 PM - Edit history (1)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_South_Carolina_Volunteers_(Union)

I'll be sure to pass along your remarks to the woman who came as Harriet Tubman. And the woman who portrayed Susie King Taylor.


Or these guys......

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Michigan_Volunteer_Cavalry_Regiment

You can see me in Gettsyburg for a fraction of a second.

But go ahead and mock....those who fought and died to secure freedom and votes for others are surely beneath your notice.

[Autumn]

112. I'm not mocking those brave deceased souls who fought and died to secure freedom,

like my ancestors. But I have no qualms at all about laughing at those who play at their "war games" for amusement . Strangely enough I'm not bothered at all by you passing along my remarks to whomever you chose that might like to dress up as those people, any more than I would be bothered by you telling an actor or actress playing a part in a movie about any remarks I might make about them. But just so we are clear. You are aware that reenactments are playing dress up? If I were to actually say that Harriet Tubman or Susie King Taylor were just "playing" a game that would be a nasty thing to do. But since neither of those two great women in history ever played "dress up games" they have my deepest respect, they actually made a difference in real peoples lives and history.

But go ahead.... play your reenactment games. Nothing wrong with amusement but please don't pretend your reenactments make a difference to anyone other that the ones you reenact your stuff with, that show up dressed as characters from a play.

[msanthrope]

115. I've had the privilege of reenacting for schools, veteran's groups, movies,

historical societies, and just for fun. The movies I was in reached millions. I'm proud of that.

It's called living history. You can laugh at it, but the next time you visit a historical site, like Independence Hall, or tour Boston, or visit a National Park, I hope you appreciate that not everyone thinks history is something to be laughed at. There are people willing to reenact so we can all learn.

FYI....you know what so cool? When I meet reenactors who are descendents of the historical figures. So sure.....laugh. For some, it's a reminder their ancestors weren't as privileged as yours.

[Autumn]

119. Again I'm not laughing at history or actual historical figures,

I do find outrage to be funny though. I majored in History so I never had the urge to role play.

[msanthrope]

122. I majored in History, too. When I taught it, my students appreciated

a teacher who would occasionally show up in costume. I'm not outraged.....but sad for you. No true student of History doesn't want to be a part of it.

[bvar22]

134. The Independence Party plays Dress Up too.

Many costume as the Founding Fathers or Sons of Liberty and have a great time playing "Lets Pretend" at their conventions. I guess they believe they are "honoring" the Founding Fathers,
but it looks like a low budget farce to me,
just like the re-enactment Battles I've seen.

[msanthrope]

182. So do people who go to Ren Faires. Everyone in a costume must be the same! nt

[Autumn]

138. A student of history cannot strive to be a part of history, it's in the past.

History is a science, if you will, of knowledge dealing with past events. Past events.
People can play "dress up" in historical reenactments but that all it is. Reenactments. Please don't be sad for me, I have no need to play a figure from history or play at being something that I'm not. I'm extremely well grounded in my life and content. Now if you happen to have a time machine there are a few periods I would like to go back to and observe but not be a part of if I may borrow it.

[Dragonfli]

125. Cos play is fun at Comicon as well, or so I have heard

I suppose their is a wookie or two that would be very angry if you did not take it as seriously as they might. My geekier friends dress up all the time for such things, but they don't expect me to take it very seriously. Sigh, I guess some people get a bit upset if you don't think them as important as whatever Jedi they like pretending to be from time to time. Those people take the fun out of it.

In the end - cos play is cos play and nothing more.

[Rex]

157. YEP, as someone that also taught history to students...this is just another form of cos play. IMNSHO

True history buffs study history, they don't have to be a part of it imo. However, I have no problems with people that play dress up out of respect for whatever it is they find in life to admire. The Liberal Arts are something to admire.

More power to them, it is important to find the things that make ya happy in life.

[Dragonfli]

158. Oh I don't have any problems with it at all, my point was it is what it is

If it makes people happy, it is a positive, I just don't get when people get upset that others aren't obsessed with the same things, they shouldn't get so damn serious about it that they get mad at people that don't take it as seriously as they do.

[Rex]

159. Oh yeah, true. I guess some people are far more serious than others.

Even on the Intertubes.

[BeanMusical]

79. Lol!

Good one.

[randome]

84. Disagree with someone's opinion and turn to mocking their hobbies.

Real class act, there.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Marr]

88. Spare me the feigned indignation.

You can't pull it off.

[randome]

94. Guess you missed the part where she said she helps 'preserve' these type of sites.

All you focused on was the re-enactment scenario. Sorry, no indignation here, just pointing out what appears to me to be obvious.

YMMV.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Bobbie Jo]

91. Yeah, that was pretty tacky.

Then again, commandeering a gravesite to worship a creepy image of this guy is pretty damn tacky in its own right.

[msanthrope]

99. Oh, Marr.....you did have to use Google, didn't you? nt

[KittyWampus]

183. historical reenactments are amazing teaching tools. No better way to learn history

than to live it.

[Marr]

192. Hey, I have no problem with people playing dress-up.

But then, I don't have a problem with that hologram, either. If you're doing the former, complaining that the latter is 'disrespecting a gravesight' seems a bit absurd.

[greatauntoftriplets]

104. Say "hi" to the lion for me!

[msanthrope]

106. I will...and I'm betting you didn't need to Google it. nt

[greatauntoftriplets]

108. No Google necessary, but I've been there with my Belgian cousins and know history.

My grandfather was an admirer of someone associated with that place. I've been to Bastogne, as well.

[msanthrope]

111. I lived in Lueven for a year. I can't wait to go back. It's

going to be a wonderful trip.

[greatauntoftriplets]

113. Enjoy!

Belgium is one of those under-rated countries that more people should visit. Grande Place has to be one of the world's most amazing outdoor spaces.

[sabrina 1]

63. Lol! n/t

[H2O Man]

81. Interesting.

Though no one has asked for my opinion on this, I would like to add a couple of thoughts. I hope that both you and msanthrope are okay with that; I think that I get along well with both of you.

I don't have any real opinion of Mr. Snowden. I tend to be in favor of people exposing government corruption and crime.

I like when artists make public statements on issues. That includes variations on "street theater," etc.

In reading msanthrope's posts on this thread, I have absolutely no doubt about his/her sincerity. I say that as someone who has, for most all of my adult life, been active in burial protection and repatriation: I worked on this with Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman for decades. More, I've participated in the restoration of a couple dozen "pioneer cemeteries" over the years.

It's possible that the artists are aware of the cemetery aspect, and are attempting to make a symbolic statement using it; and it's possible they aren't really aware of it. I also know that such art can, at times, offend people, and I'm okay with that. But it might be this offends people for the wrong reasons, which might be solid grounds for "moving" it.

[Marr]

90. I respect your opinion, and to be perfectly honest, I would probably give

msanthrope's opposition some actual consideration, if it existed in a vacuum. But it does not.

When a person has a long history of throwing absolutely everything that comes to hand, legitimate or not, at their chosen target, I think it's natural to start questioning the legitimacy and sincerity of each new complaint. I mean, if this had been a statue of, say, Bill Clinton, I doubt we'd be discussing the desecration of a burial site.

[msanthrope]

98. Thank you for your kind words. nt

[newthinking]

175. Someone using this kind of theater to get a point across is kind of low on the list of things

to get indignant about.

Kind of reminds me of people who get upset when kids play near somewhere they have chosen to sit and listen to nature. Yeah, it can be irritating, but it is all depending on which perspective you are listening to at the moment. And it is a LOT of wasted energy to get worked up, kind of silly in fact, since no real harm has been done.

[appal_jack]

123. Jebuz, it's political speech on public property.

A hologram related to an important set of pressing national issues in a public park is not harming anyone, dead or alive. Nothing is being 'defaced' by the hologram. It can be both a memorial to war dead of two centuries past and also a site to discuss the modern national security state's over-reach.



-app

[msanthrope]

124. I don't think other people's graves are a great place for political speech.....

To each their own.

[randome]

3. "Mommy, I'm scared!"

"It's okay, honey. Don't look. Don't look."


[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Blue_Tires]

4. Even the Snowdenistas have to admit the hero worship is getting creepy...

[msanthrope]

9. On a gravesite, no less. Perhaps that tells us something. nt

[Renew Deal]

5. I'm not sure that the NY Parks Department constitutes "the state", but I get the point.

[msanthrope]

10. The "incumbent authoritarianism" of the people who pick up trash and mow lawns!!! nt

[brooklynite]

11. Am I supposed to bow in reverence, or gaze up lovingly?

[randome]

13. Faint in untrammeled awe that the Snowden Oracle chose YOU to view its magnificence!

But sit down first so you don't, you know, hurt yourself.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[HappyMe]

17. Indeed.

The great and powerful Eddie of Oz!

[KittyWampus]

23. Another idea- make one of those revolving magic lamps for kids bedside tables...

You know, they project patterns on the wall… do one with cut outs of Snowden's profile.


Maybe snowden shower curtains or snowden soap-on-a-rope?

[randome]

70. Ahhh. The heady scent of Snowden in my...

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

67. You're supposed to be honest. Either you support the exposure of Government malfeasance

or you don't. I am supporter of keeping the Government honest. The only people who can do that are ordinary citizens and Whistle Blowers.

This is a statement that the people will not tolerate the misuse of the power they are entrusted with by the people. That is all it is.

I think it's a brilliant statement that no matter how hard they try, the ONLY way they can silence those exposing corruption and massive violations of the people's Constitutional rights, is to restore the Rule of Law so abused under Bush, and hold the perpetrators accountable.

Once that is done, such civil disobedience will not be necessary, until the next time the government violates the trust of the people.

As Franklin warned, the only way we can hold on to the Democracy they gave us, to be forever vigilant.

AND, those buried in the graves, swore an oath to 'defend and protect the Constitution of the US' so it's hardly something they would not agree with.

[brooklynite]

69. However I feel about the issue, I don't need to engage in hero worship...

[riderinthestorm]

109. So a hologram of a NSA wiretap would be as effective?

Its not hero worship.

Its using the most recognizable symbol to get the message across.

I doubt a bust of a cell phone would move anyone to think the way these two actions have.

[randome]

114. The message was already received. The conversation has come and gone.

Snowden and his supporters don't like the fact that the majority of the people in this country simply don't care what the NSA does with foreign communications. Until something egregious comes up, of course.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[riderinthestorm]

128. I've been a member of RAWA, a human rights group for women in Afghanistan

since 1987.

Years before 9/11 and the worlds attention zeroed in on Afghanistan and by extension the horrid conditions for women there.

Now, virtually everyone in the civilized world knows how badly women are treated there.

These kinds of complicated discussions, like national security vs our rights (or the plight of women in countries like Afghanistan) are long term conversations. I'm not bothered one whit about the level of public awareness. That time will come when it becomes an big enough problem that Americans must confront it, and I will have been proud to have been here at the start of this as a critical issues, a start that has occurred because of Edward Snowden.

[rhett o rick]

117. Neither. You can genuflect to your bust of General Clapper.

Snowden represents striking out against oppressive authority like the powerful NSA/CIA Dark State.

[brooklynite]

118. Since Snowden isn't dead and is available for TV interviews...

...I still don't see the need to remind people what he looks like.

[BeanMusical]

129. But Clapper isn't dead either.

People could use a reminder once in a while, don't you think?

[geek tragedy]

12. Creepy cultists continue to desecrate grave site. nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

152. You could at the very least strive for originality in your feigned outrage.

Or not. Whatever.

[geek tragedy]

153. So you disagree with me and think it's okay to disrespect grave sites?

http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/fort-greene-park/monuments/1222

This impressive monument, consisting of a 100-foot-wide granite staircase and a central Doric column 149 feet in height, was designed by renowned architect Stanford White (1853–1906). The monument marks the site of a crypt for more than 11,500 men and women, known as the prison ship martyrs, who were buried in a tomb near the Brooklyn Navy Yard.

Or is it that any action taken to glorify our lord and savior Edward Snowden is per se holy and just?


I suspect you would feel differently if someone put a bust of Sarah Palin up at Wounded Knee.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

155. Invalid question. Try again.

And it's not about me agreeing or disagreeing with you. It's about me agreeing or disagreeing with msanthrope, who actually had the original thought with which I disagree. I haven't seen you post any original thought in this thread. But if you do think of something, try to ask me about it in such a way that the question is actually valid.

[geek tragedy]

156. In your effort to appear clever, you've achieved quite the opposite

1) Note the date on this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6465908

Response to n2doc (Original post)

Mon Apr 6, 2015, 12:56 PM

Star Member geek tragedy (44,789 posts)
6. creepy cultists desecrate memorial nt

So, your snide little insinuation that I was being a copycat turned out to be a big fail.

2) You claimed that there was "feigned outrage"--so you compounded your snide comment about originality with an equally snotty one accusing me of dishonesty.

I live in Brooklyn. I spent two years living three blocks from that memorial. I believe that grave sites should be respected and not used for political stunts, or to glorify the living.

That is not feigned. That is what I believe. You obviously hold a different set of values, at least when the glorification of our lord and savior Edward Snowden is concerned.

Now, you got anything else or do you just want to throw up more chatter while attacking those who think respecting grave sites is more compelling of a concern than engaging in Snowdenphiliac idolatry?

[ronnie624]

169. It became a "grave site" 50 years after the fact.

Before that, it was a park. Originally, there was a fort there, that was doubtless a symbol of death for many Native Americans. No one alive today, has any emotional connection to the tomb on that cite.

You're trying to use peoples misguided emotionalism over this, to promote another agenda.

[geek tragedy]

171. Oy. nt

[ronnie624]

172. Lol. n/t

[geek tragedy]

176. As if "it became a grave site 50 years after the fact" is a rational argument

Just an invalid pretext to justify creepy cultists openly disrespecting a grave site.

The only agenda here is that of the Snowdenphiliacs.

[ronnie624]

195. Sigh.

The icons in that memorial symbolize events that happened hundreds of years ago, and that have no relevance to us whatsoever, in our daily lives, now. They are designed to appeal to things like patriotism and nationalism and other illogical emotions. People should learn about history, but getting emotional over it, is not productive at all.

Progressives are not generally known for being cultists. Science and the Liberal Arts actually spring from progressive thought. The Snowden bust simply symbolizes something much more important and of far greater relevance to our society and our civilization: the active, real-time dismantling of our democracy, through surveillance, draconian laws and secrecy, rationalized with a "war on terror", that is completely out of proportion to the threat posed by terrorism, and during a period in our history, when societal violence is at record lows, globally. The soap opera in this thread, by design, distracts from this. You and others, are using peoples' misguided emotionalism, to promote a political and ideological agenda, plain and simple.

Your little barbs don't bother me, in the least. They are a reflection of the weakness of your argument and the lack of moral legitimacy in your position on these issues.

[geek tragedy]

196. Oh the burden of knowing everything and being morally perfect

Your little barbs don't bother me, in the least. They are a reflection of the weakness of your argument and the lack of moral legitimacy in your position on these issues.

yes, us dumb sheep who don't think grave sites should be used for political theater should just bow down to you self-appointed Masters of the Progressive Universe.

Because you say we're immoral and dumb and stuff.

Bibi Netanyahu called, he wants his hubris, ego, and self-righteousness back.

P.S. The abuse of prisoners is still a timely issue. Which is one of the points of the park, and that has diddly to do with Ed Snowden, who's living a life of comfort in Russia.

[ronnie624]

197. Of course you're not going to talk about anything important.

That would force you to grapple with issues that fill you with fear. Fundamental change to the way we, as a civilization, conduct our political and economic affairs, is a frightening prospect. It will require sacrifice and LOTS of courage. In a way, I can't blame people for their anxiety over it.

See you later, Mr. tragedy

[geek tragedy]

198. Lol, thanks for the psychoanalysis, Dr. Frist. nt

[randome]

202. Oh, geek, I never knew you were so damaged!

Oh, God, this thread has gone irretrievably off the rails. Mocking historical re-enactments and armchair psycho-analyzing those who disagree. It's embarrassing.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[Marr]

193. What are you 'oying' about? It's very obviously true.

Can you cite a single, solitary example of you being up in arms about someone 'disrespecting a gravesite' that is not related to this incident? I doubt it.

But you're always-- always on the anti-Snowden/leaker side of every argument that pops up here. It's pretty clear what actually gets you worked up about this situation, and it's not 'disrespecting gravesites'.

C'mon, give me a break with this garbage.

[bvar22]

199. +

"Can you cite a single, solitary example of you being up in arms about someone 'disrespecting a gravesite' that is not related to this incident? "

[Rex]

14. Hmm...nice but I don't think that is doing him any favors.

[eShirl]

15. It doesn't look as much like him as the bust did. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. Bravo! Dissent is not so easily quashed as the authoritarians would like.

“Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder” Plato

[BeanMusical]

160. +1

[KittyWampus]

20. Maybe next they'll knock off Lincoln's head and replace it with snowden's.

I would do a photoshop but am not good at them.

This could lead to a "Snowden Memorial" photoshop challenge...

[msanthrope]

26. Damn, I miss Whisp. We should do that---A Comrade Eddie Momument Photoshop Contest.....

starting with....a statue of Lenin....

[Skidmore]

43. Where is Whisp,

not that you mention it?

[msanthrope]

49. Banned. nt

[m-lekktor]

64. she created a sockpuppet to circumvent a suspension for 5 hidden posts.

and got caught ,according to the banning comments on her profile.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=208274&sub=trans

[TeeYiYi]

141. Wow...

...I'm sorry to hear that about Whisp.

There are so many good DUers who've quietly stopped posting, I'm always surprised to learn about one that's actually been banned.

TYY

[Number23]

165. Me too, msanthrope. She would be having a field day in this thread with the Cult of Snowden

Mocking the ever loving crap out of the True Believers. Not that this is difficult, mind you...

[valerief]

25. Someday America may know who Snowden is and what he'd done. nt

[Cryptoad]

28. All the Comrades are Proud including ,,,,

Snowden. Desecration of a memorial monument is fitting show of the type of people they are. Paul announced today,,, so maybe his campaign will keep them occupied with something else!

[Douglas Carpenter]

29. good for them

[NYC_SKP]

36. Can they project this in other places, off Battery Park, for example?

I imagine the effect requires low ambient light, but I'd love to see it pop up in different places.

And I hope someone can retrieve the actual Snowden bust and reinstall it on private property somewhere in public view.

[malthaussen]

41. You ask me, it looks a lot more like Dr Stangelove than Snowden.

Which is quaint.

-- Mal

[tridim]

53. This is the very definition of obsession.

LMFAO.

GO RAND PAUL!!!!!!!!!!1111

[flamingdem]

110. They're working on the

Rand Paul holgram as we speak

[longship]

55. You are not of the body. You will be absorbed.

Just could not help thinking of this cultural reference.

[George II]

56. "the State" did not remove the bust, the New York City Parks Department removed it. But....

...the replacement by a hologram is ironically fitting - it represents the ghost of Snowden who disappeared into the night to evade prosecution for the crimes he committed.

[bvar22]

131. Cart before the horse?

I was always taught that in our democracy, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
Did you forget that, or do you not have the presumption of innocence in Canada.

[George II]

137. Very good. Why not get him to return to the US for his trial so he can be acquitted? PS -

I've lived in the US my entire life - 67 years!

[bvar22]

140. Because Snowden is not stupid,

and justice can't be guaranteed in the US anymore.

Snowden did the smart thing,
the same thing our forefathers did when facing overwhelming odds.
Live to fight another day.

[George II]

142. And therein lies the difference between Snowden and Thoreau or MLK Jr.!

[bvar22]

143. You have lived in the US for 67 years,

but somehow missed the the guiding principle upon which our entire Justice System is based?
Have you ever heard the words "Presumed Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law".


Ring any bells?

[George II]

145. You contradict yourself. On the one hand you extol the virtues of the Justice System....

....and on the other hand you say it can't be trusted.

Which is it?

[bvar22]

200. You failed to conflate two distinct issues.

Honoring a "system", but protesting the abuse of that same system is entirely consistent.

Square Peg/Round Hole FAIL.

[FairWinds]

68. I'll ask that Snowden face a court . .

after I see Patraeus do hard time.

What is it with all this selective outrage on DU?

[Ichingcarpenter]

73. Usual suspects

they swarm like flies after they get the signal

[BeanMusical]

83. Yup, very true.

[Maedhros]

121. How many work for HB Gary? [n/t]

[Puglover]

179. Yeah all 35 of them.

Same posters every time.

[Ichingcarpenter]

180. math must not be your forte............

I count 6 that try to dominate constantly on this thread
vs 123 that gave this thread a nom.

I lover guerilla theater and art which is what this was


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_theatre

its like the yes men.

[Puglover]

190. I was actually referring

to another thread now in my trash. A pitiful attempt to smear Greenwald for saying something nasty at some funeral? Which had nothing to do with nothing. All them high fiving etc etc. The rec list. Hilarious.

So I probably was a bit obtuse.

[Marr]

194. I think that's closer to the actual number, yep.

I think there are really about 10-12, +sock puppets used for recs and alerts. Every time I look at the rec list on certain threads, about 1/3 are all the names you'd expect, and 2/3 are names I've come to recognize only because they so diligently rec all the same threads as that other 1/3. They never, ever post.

[Renew Deal]

107. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to ask that Snowden face "hard time" after Petraeus does?

Your requests are not equal.

[one_voice]

130. Aww...that's cute...

people can worship whatever/whomever they choose.

That being said, I find it the height of hypocrisy that those same people huff n puff, rant n rave about disgusting idolization whenever someone says Michelle Obama looks nice; or heaven forbids speaks a kind word about the president. blah.

[bvar22]

132. I LOVE this.

No matter what the fascists and authoritarians do,
they just can't make Snowden go away.
Turning his image into pure light is also very symbolic.
Light is forever, and makes the roaches run.
(just see this thread)

DURec for the imaginative friends who did this.

[Mnpaul]

136. Next

they should use this projection on NSA buildings. Even better, use the one in your sig line.

[canoeist52]

135. "You can blow out a candle, But you can't blow out a fire; Once the flames begin to catch, The wind

"You can blow out a candle,

But you can't blow out a fire;

Once the flames begin to catch,

The wind will blow it higher...

And the eyes of the world are
watching now"
- Peter Gabriel

[DeSwiss]

139. In the future......

...robots will rid us of such graffiti the moment it appears!


Is art imitating life, or is life imitating art?

- We'll all live in perfect harmony. And everyone will follow the rules.

K&R

[rpannier]

147. TBH

1. I don't think it looks much like him. It certainly is a poor cousin to the holographic image the now PM of India used in his campaign
2. I don't get he idolization of the person. I am supportive of him releasing information, of him leaving (several prominent whistle-blowers support it as well) but he's become the focus and not the information. I'd like to see less talk about Snowden and more talk about the specifics of what is out there.
'The government has been spying!' Okay, true. But how about discussing the specifics of what they're doing, how they're doing it, etc. Instead of it being about him.
Mark Felt didn't bring down Nixon. What Nixon did brought him down.
3. If he were dead I would probably feel differently though. Martyrs become symbols of the oppression or criminal behavior. The problem is still when they become the topic and not the wrongs that are happening.

[bravenak]

151. I'm glad I'm not the only one who does not think it looks like him.

[bvar22]

203. Nixon didn't bring down Nixon.

The American Public finding out what Nixon did is what brought him down.
I am delighted that the: (pick one)
*Snowdenistas
*Cult of Snowden
*Friends of Comrade Eddie

...are keeping this story alive, and on the front page.





Snowden, Manning, and all the other Whistle Blowers ARE heroes
that are sacrificing to protect our democracy.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

161. Hmmmm...

Statue: Torn down

Hologram: News that Russia hacked the White House

HAD to be Snowden,....right?

[seether]

163. stupid americans

the only reason republican shitface snowden did what he did was he thought it would destroy obamas presidency,hes an asshole shitface goddamn scumbag republican,dont forget that ,and if you think shitface snowden did this because he was tyring to help the stupid American people youre even dumber than I am,no shitface republican does anything unless he thinks he will benefit from it,WAKE UP PEOPLE,IF HE WAS SO BOTHERED BY WHAT HE WAS DOING ,WHY DID THE SCUMBAG SHITFACE TAKE THE JOB IN THE FIRST PLACE.republicans are a goddamn fuckin disease and that includes shitface snowden

[elias49]

167. Too much coffee there pal?

You're not a goddamn fucking disease shitface pretending to be a human being, are you?
Good grief...

[Hissyspit]

186. Sorry, no.

But thanks for playing!

[zentrum]

174. So cool.

Orwell would love this.

[Ichingcarpenter]

178. Well I guess Art

[Myrina]

181. That is awesome, but I think it looks like Arthur C. Clarke ...

[link:http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.techfestival.org/arthur-c-clarke/&h=231&w=218&tbnid=ShdXCwGYOJclEM:&zoom=1&tbnh=186&tbnw=175&usg=__Rz_SFsLNe5Tk1o-Tl6aUiijEYz0=&docid=QP7H0J7wIa05cM&itg=1|

[Ichingcarpenter]

184. Photons are a''defacement of a grave site''

think about that

I found that amusing for a 'lawyer ' to say................ LOL

[Myrina]

187. Photons ... as in 'any kind of light' ?

If that's the case, there's a lot of natural defacing going on every day when the sun rises on all the gravesites around the world ...

[Ichingcarpenter]

189. Holograms

which are only photons have the power to ..........................

[FairWinds]

191. Hey Seether . .

get some help, OK?

[jwirr]

201. I love the last sentence: "And it is in sharing that act of defiance that hope resides."