Hearing the details on the Iran agreement tonight... makes me ANGRY

[MannyGoldstein]

I've been in bed half-dead with some GI-tract plague for the best part of four days, am catching up with the world. Listening to a podcast on the Iran nuclear agreement, I suddenly got mad. Real mad.

I'm mad because there are people who don't want a treaty, who'd prefer to get other people's kids killed instead of making a pretty-reasonable deal. It is a sick thing from calloused souls.

War is Hell.

War is a thing waged only as a very last resort. It is never waged for anything less by people with healthy minds. Not "to show we really mean it" nor to "teach 'em a lesson" nor "to triangulate against the Republicans".

Perhaps it's time to bring back the die-ins to show Republicans and Third-Way swine that Americans don't want no war, no more. Something needs to be done.

[Vattel]

1. change your title to say Iran

other than that, good post.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. Thanks!

I'm still one-quarter dead!

[yeoman6987]

2. Very confusing post. I hadn't heard we are having talks with Iraq too

However it makes since due the war being over and new elections up soon.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. I @#$&ed up - it 's Iran

Fixed.

[yeoman6987]

6. Oh thanks. It actually could have been Iraq too

With finishing up over there. Have a good one.

[still_one]

5. One of the few time I agree with you Manny

[MannyGoldstein]

7. Welcome to the Dark Side

Do you prefer regular or menthol? Or clove... we still have those down here.

[still_one]

9. lol

[KMOD]

8. Didn't like the Third-Way swine comment,

but I rec'd it because I agree with everything else.

[rhett o rick]

11. So what do you have to say about those so-called Democrats that are arm in arm

with the Republicons against the President. I think swine is too light.

[KMOD]

13. I'm very disturbed by them.

But I've also seen many faithful, and liberal democratic voters who post here, being categorized as third way. I'm not comfortable in calling fellow democratic voters, swine.

And yes, I realize you are distinguishing between the politicians, and the voters, but it's a fine line.

[Yallow]

19. If Democrats Don't Stand With The President

Like Republicans stood with Bush, all hope for this world is lost.

Trillions will be spent, and millions will die.

25% of American voters always vote. They are Republicans. The other
75% have to have a reason to vote. Voting for triangulating cowards
that have no courage is just as bad for them as not voting at all.

It's either stand with Obama, or watch the carnage begin. It will be
ugly.

Hate to tell it like it is, but letting Republicans scuttle this will be
a disaster for all of mankind. At least let the Mullahs have a shot
at backing away from the nuke before we bomb them.

God I hate Coward Democrats almost as much as I hate Republicans.

[KMOD]

22. I do understand your concern,

what I don't understand is why you need to hide behind multiple new screen names to make your point.

Just stand by your conviction. You will get more respect that way. Hiding behind newly created aliases, isn't helpful for you. Because those concerns are not attributed to you, and you lose the understanding you would gain if you posted it under your own name.

[In_The_Wind]

29. Good morning, KMOD

9:14 AM
Automated Message
AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Thu Apr 9, 2015, 09:03 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I do understand your concern,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6478262

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Other poster makes a polite reasonable post. This poster accuses them of being a troll/sock puppet. Rude.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Apr 9, 2015, 09:14 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: While I find this comment ruse as well, I don't think it's worthy of a hide.

I will add that this is a bizarre response from someone that doesn't use their name, even in their profile. Rather hypocritical
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think trolls and sockpuppets should be called out.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't think KMOD is being rude at all. Her post should not be hidden.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[KMOD]

33. Good Morning, Wind.

Thank you for sharing.

KMOD is my real name, juror 1.

[Smithryee]

39. I suspect a O' in your name..

right?

[KMOD]

40. you do?

let's see

KMOD

or

KMO'D

[Smithryee]

41. KMOD

Ok, so I was wrong.. even I can be wrong once in awhile

[rhett o rick]

30. Let me see if I have your priorities straight. You say you are very disturbed by

Democrats that support the Republicon Party against the Democratic Party and yet your posts seem worried more about posters being defamed as Third Way.

What is worse than a Republicon that openly supports extreme policies against the 99%? Sneaky bastards that support the same policies but call themselves Democrats.

When I elect a Democrat I want them to oppose the wicked, crazy-assed Republicon policies, not like those turn-coat Democrats that acquiesced and gave Bush the power to kill a million people.

[KMOD]

34. I'm disturbed by the Democrats going against the President

on the Iran deal.

I also would rather persuade people with information, not by calling them names.

[kacekwl]

48. We have have plenty of

Information. Now it's time to get out the boxing gloves and fight. Tired of being nice.

[KMOD]

51. Here's how I'll fight

I'll call Senator Schumer and urge him to support the President in promoting peace with Iran.

I think that will work better than calling him up and saying "Chuck, you third-way POS, FU."

[2banon]

65. Schumer's office? Have you ever called his office before?

Please share that experience when/if you do. We'll compare notes.

[KMOD]

66. I've called his Albany office in the past,

I've never had an issue.

[itcfish]

79. Albany?

I thought his office was in Brooklyn? Oh well, I wrote him an e-mail, but I received no response. I told him if he didnt support the president with the Iran deal, he would lose my vote and the 5 votes in my home.

[99Forever]

28. I agree.

Associating pigs with Third Wayers is a terrible insult to our porcine friends.

Pigs have higher standards.

[KMOD]

35. I knew that was coming.

humor is fun.

[99Forever]

37. Who is joking?

Not I.


Have a lovely day.

[KMOD]

38. I was hoping we were making some progress

towards a cyber friendship. Guess not.

Have a wonderful day yourself, 99.

[FiveGoodMen]

53. Huh. And I loved it.

[sabrina 1]

54. Our party is infested with the Third Way Think Tank's (investment bankers) bought and paid for

'democrats' which is why we cannot get a truly progressive agenda passed even when we have a majority.

They are Wall St apologists/supporters, Heritage Foundation advocates, on education, economics, the poor, social programs AND FOREVER WAR.

Before we can FIX OUR party, it is necessary to identify WHY people have become so frustrated by what they do.

I probably wouldn't call them swine, but I wouldn't call them 'democrats' either.

All those in our Party who are opposing this President's efforts to make peace with Iran, fall into the Third Way category. And we need to know who they are so we can replace them with actual DEMOCRATS.

[KMOD]

57. and thankfully, Schumer is taking a lot of heat for it.

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/30113-democrats-blast-sen-chuck-schumer-s-threat-to-kill-iran-deal

I rec'd the thread. I just don't like name calling. You can catch more flies with honey, and all that.

[sabrina 1]

61. Doesn't matter to them what the people think. Try contacting his office. He doesn't even

bother with one of those mass responses some of them do, he completely ignores his constituents, always has.

I met him once when he was running for the Senate (through my job) and he was the ONLY Dem I took an instant dislike to. He was arrogant, dismissive of the staff working at the event, angry if someone didn't recognize him etc.

And he doesn't care what the people think. He cares what his bosses, who are NOT the people, tell him to care about and they will buy him the next election, which he knows, see Rahm.

[KMOD]

67. I'll see if I can get Senator Gillibrand

to put a whoopee cushion on his chair.

On a more serious note, I would love to see De Blasio run for his seat someday.

[kacekwl]

71. President Obama has

been using honey for 6 years now . A lot of good that has done. Sometimes you have to call a prick a prick.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

10. "Something needs to be done"

It was.

Same thing that happened to you.

The Republicans lost their collective shit.

[Yallow]

21. But the Billionaires They Work For Have Their Backs

If you don't want war, the billionaires are coming for you.

They profit from chaos.

Just watch Mr. Zorg explain it all.

(Fifth Element)

It's not the children of the billionaires that will have the PTSD, or fill
Arlington with 10,000 more crosses.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

27. Obama stopped kissing up to Wall Street when they refused to give him credit for saving their asses.

[Stonepounder]

12. Do you recognize the name Smedley Butler?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

Smedley Darlington Butler[1] (July 30, 1881 – June 21, 1940) was a United States Marine Corps major general, the highest rank authorized at that time, and at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history. [...] By the end of his career, Butler had received 16 medals, five for heroism. He is one of 19 men to receive the Medal of Honor twice, one of three to be awarded both the Marine Corps Brevet Medal and the Medal of Honor, and the only Marine to be awarded the Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions.
<snip>
He became widely known for his outspoken lectures against war profiteering, U.S. military adventurism, and what he viewed as nascent fascism in the United States. [...] "I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

See also: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html by Gen. Butler.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

[BeanMusical]

20. Thanks!

I'll go read the whole page again. It's been too long so I need to refresh my memory.

And I agree. The more things change, the more they stay the same, unfortunately.

[sammythecat]

42. EVERYBODY should recognize that name.

I've never read anything about the facts of war more concise, highly readable, and to the point than that. Plus, no one could have more "street cred" than this man. He knew the truth and he told it. It should be required reading in every high school in the country. They can present it with some counter argument (whatever that could be) for balance if they want, but, it's something like a ten minute read and every U.S. citizen should be familiar with it.

[Jack Rabbit]

14. Take the pledge, everybody

• I refuse to fight in a war for oil.
• I will encourage my children to refuse to fight in a war for oil
• I will encourage my children to encourage my grandchildren to refuse to fight a war for oil
• Whether the oligarchs' stooges say it is to spread democracy or rid the world of a tyrant or enhance national security, we know they are lying and that it is a war to line the oligarchs' pockets and do nothing for us but leave us to mourn for our brothers and sisters and children and grandchildren; We will not fight in the oligarchs' war.

[Scootaloo]

15. Out of curiosity... what will "die-ins" achieve?

They've always reminded me of Lennon and Ono's "bed-In," nothing but self-congratulating pap. We're dealing with a political body trained and conditioned to ignore any amount of protest, and we help it because apparently the worst we can think of is to literally let them walk over us?

[AtheistCrusader]

16. One way to remind them that some of us still give a shit.

[Scootaloo]

24. But they don't care that we give a shit. if they did, they would give a shit, too.

[libodem]

45. Absolute passive resistance

We can't fight back but we can resist. Back in the day I went to quite a few protest marches against the Vietnam war but we had permits to assemble. I humbly suggest, plan and organize, but get a permit and get the word out by advertising for supporters so it will be well attended.

Don't just go to the court house and sit on the steps by yourself until you get arrested for nothing.

Make it count.

[Scootaloo]

75. And let's notice that the Vietnam war kept going.

Your protests didn't stop the war then, just as ours did not stop the Iraq War.

Allow me to excerpt from a book on my shelf...

Civil disobedience is normally a fairly straightforward dance between police and protesters. There are certain rules, such as trespassing, that protesters and police generally agree protesters will break, after which it is just-as-generally agreed that protesters will be arrested, often roughed up a little bit, and then usually given nominal fines. sometimes, as in the case of Plowshares activists, whose courage can never be questioned, the dance becomes surreal. The activists show up at military installations, beat on pieces of military technology with hammers (thus the name; beating weapons into plowshares), and pour their own blood onto the devices in symbolic protest of the blood these weapons shed. They then wait for the military police to show up - or call the police themselves to make sure they show up - get arrested, and sentenced to years and years in prison. other times the dance becomes comical, as when protest organizers provide police with estimates of the numbers of people who have volunteered to be arrested (so police can schedule the right number of paddy wagons) and also provide police with potential arrestee's IDs so the process of arrest will be smooth and easy on everyone involved. it's a great system, guaranteed to make all parties feel good. The police get to feel they've kept the barbarians from the gates, the activists feel good because they've made a stand - I got arrested for what i believe in - and those in power feel good because nothing much has changed.

[Bluenorthwest]

58. Back in the days when Reagan was refusing to take any action against AIDS, die-ins were a potent

method of protesting Republican events and officials because the optics created shame they could not really ignore. Without those and other massive protests, who knows how long the Reagan/Bush Republicans would have let the silence continue? Self congratulating pap indeed.

[Scootaloo]

77. Probably exactly long as they did anyway, I'm sorry to say

You can't shame the shameless. You can create theater for the media, but that lasts until the next celebrity sideboob. or until one of yours sneezes on an officer while volunteering arrest and suddenly you're all anarchic destructive animals.

I'd be happy to be wrong. Can you show me Ronald Reagan or any member of his cabinet citing die-in protests as a major force in a change of policy? Bush or his cabinet, perhaps?

[erronis]

72. Your choice. Die-in and be recognized or be slaughtered in a war and brought back in a hidden casket

[Scootaloo]

76. That's a false dilemma, erronis

There are options besides the two. Many and myriad options.

Take all those people who you would get to take a nap on some steps... and march 'em into a senator's office. Refuse to move. or if you have enough people, a highway. make things stop. be inconvenient. Cause problems for the system.

if you want to lay down in stacks of 'corpses' while blocking the road, hey, that's your style I guess. But the core is to make sure the action itself is disruptive, not just distracting.

[raging moderate]

17. What if they gave a war, and nobody came?

Let us never forget that the Paleolithic record indicates that cannibalism was once endemic among our species. I can't help feeling the key to ending war is hiding somewhere in our troubled past. Why have most of us given up cannibalism? Our ancestors somehow gradually found better things to do. And not as long ago as we like to believe.

[gordianot]

18. Aw heck why worry about kids of military age getting killed when you can spread it around.

In the Twentieth Century there were people who thought they could handle industrial age warfare a good number of them found out different some decided suicide was a good option. Then there were those who found out out asymmetrical warfare was not what it was cracked up to be, a peasant with sandals and an AK-47 was not an easy push over. Also there were entire empires who managed to spend themselves into oblivion buying hardware that mostly ended up rusting or going to the wrecking yards. Best of all barely literate and mathematically challenged megalomaniacs came on board for the Twenty-first Century they are very common today. Most of them are not familiar when American and Soviet Scientist studied those nukes and what mutually assured destruction really could do to the planet and national economy in even a small exchange. It scared those Scientist shitless but why worry when you do not believe in Science. Now we have the religiously insane who base their lives on ancient texts and should not be allowed to use sharp pieces of metal are acquiring use of all those industrial devices that kill people. Really now what could go wrong?

[libpride_15]

23. Netanyahu Lickspittles - KEEP YOUR GODDAMN WAR

We've been connived into war by that asshole POTUS Cheney.

Do that AGAIN ??

This time a never ending conflict with a Muslim nation that can really do some damage?

What are these morons "thinking"?

[djean111]

25. And people thinking that starting up the draft will do anything but give the warmongers fresh

Last edited Thu Apr 9, 2015, 08:14 AM - Edit history (1)

cannon fodder are, IMO, naive (to be nicer) fools. Sacrificing even one life in order to try and gin up some sort of revolt is evil. And ya know what? The government really doesn't care what we think anymore. Just a little bit during elections.

[madokie]

26. War is an admission of Failure

I've been saying this from the earliest days of my being here on DU

[world wide wally]

31. It pisses me off that Schumer has gone over to the war monger side...

and Democrats seemed determined to make him their Senate leader

How fucked up is that?

[geek tragedy]

32. he's always been a warmonger--he was on Team Bush/Cheney/Lieberman for Iraq nt

[kacekwl]

49. Very

fucked up.

[randome]

36. To "bring back" anything is not acknowledging how much the world has changed.

Sometimes tactics from previous decades will still work but more often not. We need to think outside the box.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[libodem]

43. Feel better, Manny

War is Hell.

[Cosmocat]

44. It pisses me off to no end

you would THINK these jackasses would be punished for it politically.

Unfortunately, it will be legitimized ...

[KansDem]

46. "Money trumps peace"

[FairWinds]

47. Manny is correct that . .

"Something needs to be done."

Furthermore, as citizens we have an OBLIGATION to do something
for both the country and our kids.

You might want to think about joining Vets For Peace (you need not be a
vet to join), Iraq Vets Against the War, Peace Action, WILPF or some other
peace group.

[Enthusiast]

50. I'm with ya, Manny!

I have had that GI-tract plague too. My wife too. We had the flu shot. But they say the flu shot missed the mark this year. I think what we had is the flu. My lungs are still full of....stuff. Yuk!

[Enthusiast]

52. They have wanted a war with Iran for many years now.

They don't want to waste all this good propaganda.

[wendylaroux]

55. Sounds like someone

needs to break out the old Vietnam war news footage.Show the blood and the gore to the American people.

Or some Iraq,Afghanistan war news footage.
Is there any?

[NM_Birder]

56. On a bright side to Iran about to make the US look foolish,

maybe Kerry can get a Nobel prize too, better be soon because Iran is already changing the terms of this historic, ..."treaty".

A treaty, .......with a nation that openly advocates the complete destruction of one member of the "negotiation party", as well as the complete destruction of it's strongest ally in the region ? Probably was a good idea to not brag right away about how much change and progress was made.

Iran has already started the, "we want it our way and now" ! "or the deal is off". Kerry showed his cards, then bet, and before Iran showed their cards Kerry went to collect the chips. And now we are about to pay the price.

say what you wish, .......but in a day... a week.... a month...... Iran will tie this "treaty" around the neck of the US and drag us around like a wet dog. Just like in Syria, .......Putin will swoop in and come out stronger and with better trade deals than he had before. the United States will just look foolish, with a pissed off ally, and a nation divided even more than now.

I am not advocating war, but just wait a few weeks, it won't take long for this treaty to unravel and kick the US in the balls. At least we didn't draw any red lines in the sand this time.

[FairWinds]

60. Retried CIA analyst Paul Pillar blows up the "Iran as Marauder" myth . .

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/04/09/hyping-iranian-threat

It is the rankest BS.

[NM_Birder]

78. Iran is on the news this morning,

explaining that they want sanctions lifted now, that the US is misrepresenting the term of the agreement, and that there will be no agreement if sanctions ain't lifted in one chunk and immediately.

They didn't say the French are misrepresenting the terms, they didn't say anyone but the US is misrepresenting the terms. The US is driving this boat, other than thinking there are 5+1 players involved, anyone have any idea what any of them think ?

Kerry went to Iran with a box of chocolates to woo a middle east skank, and then bragged about a budding relationship with a proven liar. The US is about to made to look as foolish as we were to try and negotiate with Iran. But hey at least we pissed off Israel, gave Putin a new hand to play and maybe this cluster will show well in the Obama presidential Library next to the peace prize. No war,.... keep the sanctions, ....squeeze their economy,.... if that wasn't working they would never have wanted to "negotiate".

All said and done ? this was a great waste of time and an unnecessary egg thrown in the face of the US. If Iran is not a "marauder" then why the fuck did we go to "negotiate" with them, when the final result was a draft of a best case "treaty" that allows Iran everything they want, only ten years down the road?

Watch the blame game start, and then the apology, then the reality of a futile effort, and finally ............... nothing.
Some impressive shit.

[madville]

59. It's not a treaty

A treaty such as this would never pass the Senate. This is dubbed a "non-binding agreement" by the White House.

[FairWinds]

62. Sorry, that is not correct either . .

It is an "Executive Agreement" that does not require Congressional approval.

There are thousands of these agreements in force, and many are secret. Dubya made almost 300 of them.

I do have reservations about EA's, but no more in this case than many of the others. At least this one has some degree of transparency.

It's always funny to see the righties go bananas when Obama does the same thing that GOP Presidents did routinely for which there was ZERO OUTRAGE.

[madville]

63. It can be both

It will be a non-binding executive agreement. John Kerry has stated as much.

Bottom line is they can make all the agreements they want, Iran is going to be pissed when Congress doesn't permanently remove the sanctions.

[For Freddie]

64. I agree Manny...

with everything you said.
I got a remedy for your gut problems.
Book: Herbal Antibiotics Natural Alternatives for Treating Drug-Resistant Bacteria by Stephen Harrod Buhner
ISBN 1-965-11531-4
Ever since my family and I use this book we stop the gut problems in 24 to 48 hours. Even with food poisoning.
IT WORKS. I hope this gets to you.
Take Care of your Self.

[7962]

68. Why does turning down this deal mean "war"? Why not just get a better deal?

Iran still claims they're not pursuing nukes. If thats true, why build your facilities 100 ft underground and refuse to let them be inspected? And I dont want to hear "because if they build it above ground Israel will bomb it". Because an obvious power facility wouldnt be attacked.

[Art_from_Ark]

73. It's not like there isn't a precedent for attacking an "obvious power facility"

"On 7 June 1981, a flight of Israeli Air Force F-16A fighter aircraft, with an escort of F-15As, bombed and heavily damaged the Osirak reactor.[10] Israel claimed it acted in self-defense, and that the reactor had "less than a month to go" before "it might have become critical."[11] Ten Iraqi soldiers and one French civilian were killed.[12] The attack took place about three weeks before the elections for the Knesset.[13]

"The attack was strongly criticized around the world, including in the United States, and Israel was rebuked by the United Nations Security Council and General Assembly in two separate resolutions.[14][15] Media reactions were no less negative: "Israel's sneak attack ... was an act of inexcusable and short-sighted aggression", wrote the New York Times, while the Los Angeles Times called it "state-sponsored terrorism".[14] The destruction of Osirak has been cited as an example of a preventive strike in contemporary scholarship on international law.[16][17]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera

[7962]

74. The Iranians refused all offers from other countries to build an actual power facility

All this would be moot if they hadn't. Russia offered to supply fuel and take back waste; Iran refused. If they REALLY were only trying to build nuclear power facilities, they'd have no problem accepting those offers.
Khamenei is already saying the US is lying & the "fact sheet" is not what they agreed to. This "deal" is going nowhere unless we cave to EVERYTHING Iran wants.
We'll see come June.

[Mira]

69. Thank you for this post

+ 1 million recommendations

[Ed Suspicious]

70. War is the ultimate failure. That the chickenhawks look at it as a first option shows their

personal failures as human beings.

[B Calm]

80. I'm wondering how many of those war mongering republicans would enlist

if President OBAMA started a war with Iran?