During primary season, feel free to criticize HRC's positions, actions, connections, and/or sincerity all you wish.

[pnwmom]

And promote your favorite candidate to your heart's content.

But could we please all agree that DU is not the place to make negative comments on her appearance, clothing, age, voice, laugh, or femininity?

[pnwmom]

5. No, I think the sexism and the misogyny should stop.

It's a breakdown in the system when an anti-female post has to go to a jury.

[pnwmom]

17. No, it's about sexist bigotry and the desirability of avoiding it. n/t

[zeemike]

42. So you don't trust the jury

Because they are bigots who will not render a fair decision?
That seems like complaining about DU and Duers.

[pnwmom]

43. Those posts are a slap in the face to the targeted gender or minority group till they're removed.

By the time the juries have ruled the damage has been done.

[zeemike]

46. What damage is done?

Are you or someone here so fragile that you can be damaged by words on a computer screen? If so for your own sake turn off the computer.

Or are you saying that those post (which I have not seen but only guess what they are) are so convincing that they will turn a HRC supporter into a Paul bot?...I doubt that, I really do.

[pnwmom]

47. The slap in the face to the targeted group. You won't acknowledge it but it is real. n/t

[zeemike]

51. Well of course it is real, as real as characters on a computer screen.

It is just me I guess but no one slaps me in the face when they say something to me I don't like.
If they really did slap my face through that screen I would definatly turn that computer off.

[merrily]

67. Seeking to eliminate entire categories of comments about Hillary in which

Hillary has some vulnerability and/or get the commenter discredited as a bigot and/or banned.

And the claim that this thread is about sexism toward all women and not about protecting Hillary is more than a little transparent.

The OP does not mention all female politicians, nor even all females who may run for POTUS, or all Democratic female politicians, etc. let alone all women. It doe not even mention Warren, who has some of the same vulnerabilities.

[zeemike]

68. I am afraid that is the case far to often.

That some want to ban the categories they themselves define.

And it is not good for Democrats to do that...it makes us look weak.
The reason I support Warren is she IS a strong women and if someone criticizes her hair or dress she would blow it off as stupid shit, which it is, and go right on with real things... and so will I, and so should we all.
If we react every time someone pushes our buttons they will keep pushing them.

[merrily]

53. Really? Have you made an OP like this in GD before about women in general?

The fact that you make a blanket statement about all comments about a candidate for the Presidency being sexist, that does not make it so, John Edwards "pretty" face and $300 haircuts being only case of a male candidate's appearance making headlines.

I agree with 1000 words. Leave it to the jury.

[pnwmom]

56. I feel the same way about women in general. I don't make fun of them based on their appearance,

voices, etc.

And I didn't mock John Edwards in that way, either.

Maybe you think that kind of post is fine, but I don't.

[merrily]

58. You did not answer the question. You said your OP is about women, not only Hillary.

However, since your OP is only about Hillary, I asked whether you'd made an OP in GD like this before about women in general. You haven't answered.

And I didn't mock John Edwards in that way, either.

What does what you did or did not post about Edwards have to do with anything? Point is, journalists and DUers deemed comments about his appearance when he was running for POTUS relevant and that had zero to do with sexism toward women.

[pnwmom]

60. When a person mocks Hillary for feminine characteristics, that is an insult to women in general.

I mentioned John Edwards in response to your post.

Is someone else writing your posts for you? That would explain a lot.

[merrily]

63. Still not answering the question about whether you've made an OP like this in GD before about women

in general.

Is someone else writing your posts for you? That would explain a lot.

Well, this time you went ad hom even faster than usual, but what you gained in speed, you sure more than lost in rationality.

That makes no sense at all. You ducked my question, which went to the the credibility of your claim that your OP about Hillary is not only about Hillary. And, somehow your ducking that question means someone else is writing my anonymous posts?

[pnwmom]

64. Your question seems pointless. Everyone has many ideas that they haven't made an OP about.

That doesn't mean they don't have them. I have no idea whether I've addressed the subject in a broader way or not. I might have because I'm a feminist. But I don't know. And I don't understand why it matters to you so much that you keep asking.

[merrily]

55. Depends. If it's anti-Dem establishment, it's lock-worthy disruptive meta. If it's pro Dem

establishment, it's not disruptive meta.

[zappaman]

73. +100

[cui bono]

24. No, if it's sexist, racist or homophobic please stop doing it. n/t

[cui bono]

70. That it is. n/t

[merrily]

62. I agree. Stop making bigoted posts, everyone. However, please also see Replies 53 and 58.

Just because a post may fall into a category listed in the OP does not automatically make it sexist.

Enough alert stalking goes on here as it is

[cui bono]

69. Very true. I just felt the post I responded to was leaving a door open to people behaving however

they wished and just let the jury decide. I'd rather people thought about what they were saying before they let it all hang out.

[merrily]

72. Yeah, I didn't see that as the goal of the OP.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

71. Simple concept

way too complicated
for a simple few.

[merrily]

54. +1 Just like all allegations of bigotry.

[elleng]

2. YES! PLEASE!

THANK YOU!

[GummyBearz]

3. I dislike her positions and I completely agree with this OP

As should everyone here with good intentions.

[pnwmom]

6. They shouldn't be targets of misogyny here, either. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Good one./NT

[cyberswede]

9. +1

...even though I see your awesome reply was "wasted" on a recurring troll. It was still a great answer.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. And pretending to be a progressive to sow seeds of discord...

It's interesting how easy it is for some people to get played...

[FBaggins]

7. I'm afraid not. Politics is a bloodsport

We've certainly seen no end of male candidates who receive negative comments on their appearance (orange skin Boehner?), clothing (Gore's earth tones), age (any number of 'senior statesmen'), voice (Dean's scream), or masculinity.

I doubt very seriously that many DUers are making such comments because of her gender... it's because she's running for president.

I would very much wish that such behavior would change, but it's par for the course.

[lonestarnot]

18. 'bloodsport' don't like that

term. But you are referencing that thing on Rand Paul's head?

[Reter]

10. I agree with all of it, even age

Dole and McCain's age was mentioned, and they're they're both still around.

[H2O Man]

11. Recommended.

Thank you.

[snooper2]

13. McCain's age was talked about over and over and over and over

why is she special?

[pnwmom]

15. This is a Democratic/progressive site. I don't think Bernie Sanders should be criticized

on the basis of his age either; or Elizabeth Warren.

But John McCain -- have at it.

[FBaggins]

22. So it isn't actually about bigotry?

It's about defending your preferred candidate?

Are there objectively unacceptable behaviors or aren't there?

[jwirr]

29. Hey we are not criticizing poor John. We are just discussing his memory lose!

[snooper2]

79. well, that just isn't going to fly-

NO BUSH NO CLINTON!

[840high]

16. Yes it was.

[merrily]

65. McCain's age, John Edwards' "pretty" face and getting $300 haircuts,

Palin's wardrobe, etc., all determined by journalist to be newsworthy. Sorry, I think there is more than enough alert stalking, message control and control freakiness at DU already. And that has nothing to do with my opposition to Hillary

Since pwnmom will not answer my question, I discount somewhat her claim on this thread that her OP about Hillary is not only about Hillary, ,but about women in general. Rather, it seems to be an attempt to insulate Hillary--and only Hillary--from criticism on DU in several areas in which she, and any candidate, might be vulnerable.

I's far prefer Sanders to Hillary, but he is older than Hillary. Ditto Warren, and she is only younger by Hillary by a few years. Statistically, each and every one of them has less energy than a 50 year old, slower reaction time than a 50 year old, and a greater tendency toward physical illness, dementia, Alzheimer's etc. than a 50 year old. Why the hell is that not even a consideration when you are talking about a year of compaigning followed hopefully by another 4 to 8 years in office, the 4th year in office involving both governing and campaigning.

This is not a job from which we can suddenly decide to have an employee accept a paid leave of absence or a transfer, or even a pink slip, if we are dubious about the ability of an older person we hired last year to render top performance going forward.

[BreakfastClub]

66. Because age is different for a woman than it is a man in our society.

Democrats regularly called Bush a Chimp and called for "chimpeachment" throughout his presidency. It wasn't racist, but saying that about Obama WOULD be racist. That's why.

[merrily]

74. No, the things I said are equally relevant/important for a male POTUS and a female POTUS.

I didn't post that things like "God, can some please send her to a plastic surgeon for a facelift" would be okay. However, again, when Kerry ran, there had been comments/speculation about his having something done to his face to look younger.

And, when discussing a Dem primary candidate for POTUS on a Dem message board, is it right to eliminate whole categories of discussion? Why is not leaving to the jury sufficient.

BTW, I don't think the OP is about all women. It's about protecting Hillary, period.

[Jim Lane]

75. There's a difference between a wisecrack and a serious argument.

Last edited Wed Apr 15, 2015, 04:29 AM - Edit history (1)

The Presidency is a demanding job, and age is a legitimate consideration in assessing candidates for it. (This doesn't mean "Never trust anyone over 60." It means it's ONE consideration.)

Even if you disagree, we're at the stage of picking a nominee -- so it's relevant to consider electability as well. The Clinton supporters aren't shy about raising that factor when it works in her favor. If a substantial number of voters consider her too old, then that's also something for Democrats to think about.

Your argument is that some people take up age in a sexist and hence illegitimate way, and that the rest of us are therefore barred from taking it up in a non-sexist way. I agree with the premise but not the conclusion.

ETA: After posting the foregoing I happened upon a relevant article elsewhere. Clinton, if elected, would be the second-oldest President in U.S. history, less than a year younger than Reagan. The new information is an expert's conclusion that Reagan began exhibiting speech patterns linked to the onset of dementia long before his 1994 diagnosis of Alzheimer's.

I know perfectly well that there are people who are much older but still sharp. My point is just that it's one legitimate factor to consier.

[Vattel]

21. I agree and would add that DU is not the place to repeat RW anti-Clinton smears

[riversedge]

25. I had a long drive today and kept switching the radio

stations. Most were RW stations--all smearing Hillary--.


I finally gave up and found some good music.

[riversedge]

23. Sounds very reasonable to me.

[jwirr]

27. Agreed. I do not like to see that. I was shocked when Rubio went there. As an older woman I was

furious at him and would feel the same about anyone else.

[Bonobo]

28. I totally agree.

As soon as the same conditions are applied to everyone. Men included, even Republicans.

[TDale313]

36. I could live with that.

Although I think it's fairly well documented that female politicians are far more likely to have their appearances commented on in both negative and "positive" ways. There is an underlying sexism to many of these comments- perhaps not any one comment but the cumulative effect.

Truth is, there's not gonna be any site-wide bans on these topics, and probably shouldn't be, but is it a distraction that tends to diminish the person being discussed? Yeah, I think so. Plus,often they're cheap shots where there are so many valid issues we could be discussing.

[pnwmom]

41. Okay with me, too. But it will be really tough

if Donald Trump ends up running.

[Doctor_J]

30. What about vanity posts like "I love her hair"

Should the fan club also have to restrict themselves to issues?

[pnwmom]

34. I can't get worked up about those. Can you? nt

[Scootaloo]

31. You're being a bit hypocritical, aren't you?

After all, it was just last month that you were going off the rails about a woman not being 'feminine enough" for your liking at Planet Fitness.

[pnwmom]

35. No. The situations aren't connected

and you're misrepresenting my posts.

[Scootaloo]

39. I'm not misrepresenting them at all. In fact it's a trend from you

What i'm saying is that it's hypocritical of you to complain about doing exactly what you do. Except that you did it at an entire group of people and not one prominent politician.

[pnwmom]

40. It's a trend of yours to misrepresent what people say.

I clearly stated I wasn't talking about transpeople, either transmen or transwomen, like the transwoman in the story.

I was talking about men who are biologically male AND identify as male.

[TDale313]

32. Agreed.

It is likely not realistic, unfortunately, but those types of comments aren't helpful, imo. And I say that as someone who really wants to see someone more liberal as the nominee. I don't think there should be a ban, but I would like to see them avoided.

[Cha]

33. K&R mahalo pnwmom

[closeupready]

37. Wow! Thank you for your permission to do that.

I would have refrained from speaking my mind otherwise.

[morningfog]

38. And when we criticize her policies, positions, connections, etc, please lay off the personal

attacks.

It's going to be a long ass primary when every legitimate criticism gets a litany of personal attacks. It's weak minded and makes DU suck.

I agree wholeheartedly with you post. None of those things listed in your last sentence should be discussed at all. They are irrelevant.

[woo me with science]

52. Well said.

[woo me with science]

44. That's what the vast majority of us have done all along. Her positions are a menace to human beings

and to democracy itself.

We have suffered a corporate purchase of our democracy, and Hillary stands bankrolled by and aligned with those who are systematically replacing our democracy with secret and undemocratic government, mass surveillance, a vast privatized prison system and militarized police, suppression of dissent, a war on journalism and its replacement with propaganda machines, and the systematic gutting of our Constitutional protections and replacement of them with looting, exploitative corporate rule.

Hillary Clinton vs Bernie Sanders top donors compared
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026506869

Hillary Clinton's leading role in drafting the TPP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101667554

Hillary Clinton and Trade Deals: That “Giant Sucking Sound”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016101761

Hillary Clinton Cheerleads for Biotech and GMOs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/112772326

Dissecting Hillary Clinton's Neocon Talking Points - Atlantic Interview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017209519

NYTimes notices Hillary's natural affinity toward the neocons.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025205645

Hillary Clinton, the unrepentant hawk
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024876898

More from Hillary Clinton's State Department: The fascistic TISA (Trade in Services Agreement)
http://m.thenation.com/blog/180572-grassroots-labor-uprising-your-bank

How Hillary Clinton's State Department sold fracking to the world
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251376647

Hillary Clinton Sides with NSA over Snowden Disclosures
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101695441

On the NSA, Hillary Clinton Is Either a Fool or a Liar
http://m.thenation.com/article/180564-nsa-hillary-clinton-either-fool-or-liar

Corporate Warfare: Hillary Clinton admits role in Honduran coup aftermath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025601610#post29

The Bill and Hillary Clinton Money Machine Taps Corporate Cash
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025189257

Hillary's Privatization Plan: TISA kept more secret than the TPP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014829628

Hillary Clinton criticizes Obama's foreign policy 'failure'; strongly defends Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014867136

Some of Hillary Clinton's statements on Social Security.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024379279

Hillary Clinton's GOLDMAN SACHS PROBLEM.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025049343

Ring of Fire: Hillary Clinton - The Perfect Republican Candidate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017209285

How Americans Need Answers From Hillary Clinton On TPP, KXL, Wall St & More
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017181611

Hillary Clinton Left Out By Liberal Donor Club
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025809071

Why Wall Street Loves Hillary
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016106575

Hillary Clinton: Neocon-lite
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101684986

Interactive graphic of Hillary Clinton's connections to the Forbes top 400 (Follow link in post)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025824981#post9

Hillary Clinton criticizes Obama's foreign policy 'failure'; strongly defends Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014867136

The Warmongering Record of Hillary Clinton "I urged him to bomb..."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026219783

Hillary defends Israel on Gaza carpet bombing
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025274041

Hillary tacks right of Obama on foreign policy.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024707589

Dissecting Hillary Clinton's Neocon Talking Points - Atlantic Interview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017209519

NYTimes notices Hillary's natural affinity toward the neocons.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025205645

Hillary Clinton, the unrepentant hawk
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024876898

Hillary Clinton Praises George W. Bush and the Art of Compromise
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026394878

Hillary Clinton's role in right-wing Honduran coup and aftermath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025601610#post29

Hillary Clinton's Horrifying Iraq War Vote Still Matters.
http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/hillary-clintons-iraq-war-vote-still-matters-9737

Secret recordings show US military and a Democratic congressman distrusted Hillary Clinton on Libya (lying, manipulating intelligence)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026157088

Hillary Clinton Blasts ‘Unfair’ World Reaction Over Gaza, Cites Anti-Semitism As Factor
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025364869

Obama didn't go as far as Hillary now says she wanted to go in smashing Syria
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251375376

Hand in Hand With Kissinger: A Review of Hillary Clinton’s Review
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016102317

Hillary Clinton Serves Us KISSINGER KOOL-AID
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025504036

MJ - Hillary Clinton Praises a Guy With Lots of Blood on His Hands
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025493748

[JDPriestly]

45. The quality of a candidate's voice is an important factor that voters consider.

The voice conveys emotional content to people who hear it.

The voice conveys the character and soul or inner content of the speaker.

That is why people love singing and prefer the voices of certain singers to the voices of other singers. We may not all agree on which voices are the most inspiring or strong or pleasing or expressive, but we judge people to a greater extent than most of us realize based on their voices.

Actors study voice production. I have a friend whose father specialized in teaching people elocution and spoken vocal production. I studied singing.

And some people are more sensitive to the sounds of voices than others. Clearly I am fascinated by vocal production. Sorry. That's me.

Someone else may judge people by their appearance, but I hear what a person is in their voice. I will comment on people's voices. And trust me, I know a lot about voice and what the sound of a voice may mean.

When a person runs for office, their whole person is up for subjective evaluation by each voter. All these superficial things, fairly or not, are going to play a big role in who will be elected our president in 2016.

Sorry, but we all get judged based on our superficial characteristics. It's just the way it is.

And I don't even think that a person's voice is all that superficial. Think of it. Your voice comes from deep within you. If nothing else, it reflects the state of your breathing apparatus, the strength of your heart and the health of your vocal chords as well as the flexibility of your lips, tongue and even your teeth in some cases.

[KMOD]

48. I'm a former disc jockey and voice talent

I once did an entire 5 hour shift with a 104 temperature while getting sick in a garbage can during commercial breaks. No one noticed. It was as if everything was fine.

Also, Bob Dylan and Neil Young have horrible singing voices. They sing in tune. But it's the quality of their songwriting that carried them, not their voices.

[JDPriestly]

77. Actually, it isn't a matter of having a beautiful voice in pop music, jazz or even a lot of folk

music and rock. What matters is sounding authentic. What matters is that your inner feeling when you sing is one with what you are singing. Janis Joplin had a terribly hoarse voice. It did not reflect health, but when she sang, she was one with what she was singing. She was authentic.

Opera singers often learn what is called bel canto style. The tones are carried on the breath so as to form an even melody. But that is just the style for that kind of music. If you listen to a great jazz singer like Ella Fitzgerald, she almost sings in a bel canto style. Her tones rest upon and are simply transported to your ear by her breath. On the other hand, if you listen to an old-time jazz singer like June Christy (who sometimes sang flat), it is the shallow quality of her breathing that gives the character to her voice.

Authenticity is what you want in a voice. The unity of the sound with the physical and emotional and spiritual self of the person speaking or singing.

By the way, Obama has a marvelous voice nearly all the time. It expresses who he is and what he feels.

For me it is about authenticity. Is the person being him- or herself when he sings or speaks.

Leonard Cohen is an example of someone with a unique voice. If you watch his London concert, the one he recorded a few years ago, you see an example of what I consider to be great singing. He does not have a bel canto voice. Someone who only likes classical singing would not like it. But there is an integrity, and authenticity, a sincerity, and thus a spiritual value in his voice. It is him, humbly expressing his music and his lyrics to the world.

So that is what I think about voices. Some people won't understand.

I was born with a severe vision defect, so sounds are important to me. I can see well now especially since having cataracts removed. I feel it is as if my eyes have been given to me, the eyes I was supposed to have but did not ever have, thanks to the miracle of that operation.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

78. ^truth^

[pnwmom]

49. Women are often mocked for having higher pitched voices than men, so you are on shaky territory.

Yes, it is common for people to judge each other based on superficial characteristics, but that doesn't mean it's helpful in political discussions.

[Mbrow]

50. 110% agree, HRC is not my

candidate of choice, but you can bet my criticism will be about the issues and her past support of things I don't like.

[The Green Manalishi]

57. agreed.

I loath several of her positions, her friendship with Kissinger and will NEVER forgive her or anyone who voted for the wars.

But
A)if she's the nominee then she's my candidate, and I think that anyone who does not ascribe to that is on the wrong board.

B)zero tolerance for agism or sexism. Don't need that shit here and I agree that even having to have it go to a jury is pretty sad. Age is just a number. OTOH, for anyone who thinks gender is any indicator of rationality, kindness, decency or humanity I got two words for : Margaret Thatcher.

I don't know what you mean about laugh or clothing, those are fair game for men (I mean who can not laugh when you think of Huckabee and matching shirts) and I can't count the number of people who attack Christie as a 'fat ...this or that, which I do think is uncool, I don't think it's realistic to expect the public persona of a politician to not be part and parcel, as far as electability goes.

Only a guy who's a complete moron, and an asshole to boot (repeatedly, in the gonads) is going to demean a 60+ year old female for her body.

Tangentially, I wonder if we would have thought of Nixon differently if he had been handsome and graceful......

[pnwmom]

59. As to clothing,

someone posted a photo array of HRC in pantsuits, taken from a rightwing website. It wasn't funny.

[The Green Manalishi]

61. Hadn't seen that.

IMHO she dresses appropriately and professionally; anybody who would make an issue beyond that is probably an agent provocateur, but a really incompetent, if clueless and classless one.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. If elected, she'll be the 2nd oldest President, after Reagan.

I think it is reasonable to expect that her age might come up as a legitimate factor in discussions. I dont think it should disqualify her, although I'd be lying if I said I don't wish our party had a bigger better bench beyond Boomers, to put it alliteratively.

The rest of the stuff you mention, I agree 100%. My questions about HRC have to do with her record and her positions, not her hair, voice, clothes etc.