Is it possible that a lot of people think legalized gay marriage means forcing all churches

[Quixote1818]

to comply with it? I was just on a discussion on Facebook and pointed out that marriage throughout history has been more a legal binding of two people by the state for any number of reasons from family status, to love to financial reasons etc. I then pointed out that even if the state legalized gay marriage if they wanted to get married in a religious ceremony they would have to find a church that allows gay marriage like the Unitarians.

To my surprise the person had no problem with this as if he simply thought gay marriage was the state telling churches they had to accept gay marriage.

Perhaps democratic politicians need to do a better job educating the public that gay marriage will not force churches to comply and that it is strictly allowing gay people to marry under the states laws.

Thoughts?

[Ruby the Liberal]

1. That is how it has been spun.

I won't go into detail of yet another Thanksgiving dinner with my family, but in 2011, this (of course) came up.

When I asked how anti-gay-marriage people were going to be affected by gay marriage - that was the only argument I got. That they would be forced to have gay marriage in churches.

It took me about a week to reengage my jaw from resting on my chest.

[Irishonly]

4. Had one of mine not left, I probably would have thrown her out

Her pastor said so and she cannot be bothered with facts.

[musical_soul]

15. While you have a right to throw somebody out......

that doesn't do a good job of promoting a cause. Just sayin.

[Irishonly]

27. No, it got out of control

But I was done.

[etherealtruth]

2. Not only possible ... but probable

The religiously insane right wing nut jobs have a tendency to repeat this talking point.

Its wholly ridiculous ... illogical ...etc; however, the target audience is not know for their critical thinking skills

[Irishonly]

3. I think a lot of homophobic preachers are telling the "flocks" that pastors would.

Nothing like telling a huge lie.

Commercials done by homophobic, hate groups would have no problem telling the lie. I cannot remember if the prop 8 commercials did run ads filled with lies.

[Initech]

5. I think the only way churches would listen is if their tax exempt status started getting revoked.

Their preaching has become nothing more than a political tool for the GOP - the fact that Ted Haggard sat on a weekly meeting with Bush is scary to say the least. Look at that asshole in North Carolina - he flat out openly encouraged violence against gay people and it was quite disturbing to say the least, I think the only way they would listen would be to make 'em pay taxes - you want to preach politics? Fine, you pay like the rest of us. Until then fuck off.

[pinto]

6. Very likely assumption, imo. May be a logical result of disregarding separation of Church/State.

And, agree, it should be a key talking point for Dems to note - This is about civil rights. Equality under Federal law. Has nothing to do with, nor any effect on, religious institutions. We support the standard - Church and State are separate entities.

(ed for syntax)

[undeterred]

7. The truth is that the liberal denominations are changing voluntarily on this issue

as they have done in the past regarding the ordination of women. And this is gong to be very disturbing to the more conservative churches - to see gay clergy and gay people being married in church. It has happened and it is going to be commonplace. So even though this has never been the real argument, this is the undercurrent.

[hedgehog]

8. Churches should get out of the business of performing state sanctioned marriages, period!

If you want a state recognized marriage, go down to City Hall. If you want a religious marriage, go to your religious hall (church, synagogue, temple, Wiccan circle, whatever!)

It's not just about the GLBT community. Lots of elderly people who'd like to be married according to their religious beliefs forgo the process because their incomes would be cut if they married. Separating state sanctioned civil marriage with its costs and benefits from religious marriage would be a big benefit!

[Proud Liberal Dem]

9. I think you may be onto something

Logic and nuance, however, are not some people's strong suits. I also think that to some people, government legalizing same-sex anything is tantamount to "endorsing" same-sex relationships/behavior (oh, the horror! ). Of course, I've always felt that passing anti-gay constitutional amendments, sodomy laws, etc. are tantamount to endorsing certain religiously-based beliefs since there are no non-religious reasons for such laws. The same goes for anti-abortion laws.

[MineralMan]

10. I think there are some people who think that.

But, they'd have to be fairly ignorant of how things work now to really believe it. Pretty much everyone, I think, knows that the Catholic Church has some pretty strict rules about who they will marry in the church. Any minister or pastor can decline to marry any couple they wish. Now, there may be some people who don't understand that, but I don't think it's all that many.

Mostly, this meme you mention is promoted by the right, who don't mind lying to push their position.

As you say, marriage is really a legal thing, controlled by the state. The religious marriage service is nothing more than a solemnization of what is a civil function of the law. Nobody is required to have a religious service to be married, and nobody can require a given religious leader to marry any couple.

[jberryhill]

11. Ask them why Catholic Churches won't marry two Jews

Yes, they believe churches will be somehow forced to perform same sex marriages, while utterly ignoring the fact that many churches, of course, only perform marriages for people within their own membership or who otherwise subscribe to their religious belief system.

Clearly, Protestants can lawfully marry. Does anyone force Catholic churches to perform services for them? No.

It's beyond weird that these people think the situation is any different.

NOW, they will tell you "It happened in New Jersey." They will be unable to tell you the salient details of that particular situation. What happened there was that a church owns a beachfront pavilion which they rent out to anyone on a regular basis. In other words, the facility in question was not an exclusive religious building, but was a public accommodation, like any other facility available for rent on an unrestricted basis. Yes, a couple was denied a rental, and yes, they obtained lawful relief against discrimination in rental of a public accommodation. That is not at all comparable to, for example, a church building per se.

[HockeyMom]

16. Catholic Church is exempt from marrying civilly divorced couples

even Catholics. They are exempt in NYS, but are still fighting even the CIVIL marriage laws. Render unto Caesar. Ever hear of that?

[jberryhill]

21. I don't even understand your comment

No religious organization is required to perform a religious service for anyone whom they choose not to do so.

[HockeyMom]

26. Catholic Church doesn't have to marry gay couples in NYS,

same as with the divorced, but they are still fighting Marriage Equality. They don't want CIVIL Marriage Equality.

[MineralMan]

12. Besides, why would anyone think a same-sex couple would

want to get married by some minister who thought it was wrong? The logic of all of this is way off kilter. It's just a propaganda move by the right.

[treestar]

13. Better job of educating?

The problem is that it is easier to imagine being smarter than you are than it is to imagine being dumber than you are. It never occurred to me (and likely many Democratic leaders) that anyone that dumb as to think that would be able to find their way to the polling booth. But you never know.

[musical_soul]

14. Exactly.

I've been telling people that if gay marriage was made legal, the churches do not have to accept it.

I'm Catholic. That means I attend a church that does not recognize remarriage. It's legal, but the church won't recognize it, won't perform the ceremonies. Gay marriage will work the same way. The gay couple will have to find a Justice of the Peace or a gay marriage friendly minister to perform the ceremony.

Now, it has came to my attention that while they aren't forcing ministers to marry gays in Hawaii (where it's been made legal), that there have been some disputes as to whether church property can be used. Now, I don't think this is right and I think this is hurting the gay rights cause. If want this to go through, we have to convince the churches that gays are not a threat to their rights.

[patrice]

17. YES. The majority perception of power of any kind is that it is a zero-sum commodity.

e.g. "If you have power, I don't. If I have power, you don't." So, like a market commodity, if I want something done, I trade away my power to do it to others, whom I assume have more power than I do, and since I trade my power away, I assume that things will be accomplished with it will be completely beyond my control, e.g. even though I MIGHT support LGBTQ Civil Right to marry, I assume that everyone is going to be forced to comply, because they have no power to do otherwise.

[patrice]

18. Maybe one of the reasons that meme is being propagated is that those who are doing that know

that if people knew the truth, and they saw churches continuing to oppress LGBTQ Civil Rights, people'd LEAVE those congregations. So these churches have to make it look like THEY are the one's being oppressed, not our LGBTQ brothers and sisters.

[slackmaster]

19. Yes, that is a common misconception. Churches can refuse to marry any couple for any reason,

and they would still be able to do so with same-sex marriage legalized.

[tammywammy]

20. I believe a lot of people think it will force churches to perform gay marriages

Frankly, I think all churches need to be out of the legal marriage business. We should have the system where you get your legal marriage through the state and the church marriage is just a secondary event with no legal implications.

[rurallib]

22. No, I think people fear they will be forced to marry someone of their own sex

I actually ran across a guy who believed that 4 years ago.

[mmonk]

23. Yes, that is how they think because that is what they are told.

[taterguy]

24. No

[Honeycombe8]

25. Can a church legally refused to marry two people of different races,

for that reason alone? Assuming the two people are of the faith of the church and belong to that church?