I am a little put off that an agreement that will affect my fellow American's cannot be shown to....

[trumad]

my fellow Americans.

Fact of the matter is---when a politician tells me to trust them, history tells me not to.

I love Obama---I think he is the best President of my lifetime---BUT....

“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”

[seabeyond]

1. i am not going ot trust obama any more than i will trust warren and grayson.

and some people even less.

[cali]

3. you don't have to

Reading the leaked chapters gives you a picture of what US negotiators are pushing for. It's illuminating

[seabeyond]

4. i have listened to enough. i also need ot listen some more. i can wait until the information is

released. like...

i did not know that this started way back in 2002. not the u.s. it is inevitable. and hte approach is bring u.s. into it with our best advatage.

that is another consideration.

i need FULL foreclosure from all sides, to decide.

[Joe Turner]

31. Growing World Trade is inevitable

Bad trade deals that inure to the benefit of a few are not.

[trumad]

6. Cali you and I have butted heads many times over the years...

but I agree with you on this.

Question: Don't you think this whole thing has been a bit weird---especially with Obama?

[seabeyond]

7. personally, i do not see this handle different from ACA. he has played both, the same. nt

[cali]

11. it's quite different

He had heavy support from congressional dems for the ACA and near unanimous opposition from republicans. That's almost the mirror opposite of what we are seeing now,

[seabeyond]

14. one is about healthcare and one is about trade. huge difference. that is not what i replied to.

i am talking his personal style and handling of the issues.

[seabeyond]

15. see the way we flavor our difference of opinion? your to nefarious, mine to

a mere style.

this is what i am talking about, both camps being political. and making me pause, every step of the way.

[cali]

20. I think his style is very different this time

And no, I don't think my comment went to a belief in the nefarious.

[seabeyond]

24. i disagree on the style issue cali. your point that it is all repugs is a huge flag for me too.

i will continue to read and learn.

that should be good enough

[cali]

9. I'm beginning to suspect that this is largely about China for him

[ananda]

8. Would you trust yourself?

I would only trust my own reading...
which I deserve as a citizen affected
by any trade decision.

What Warren and Sanders are after
is transparency and truth -- I trust
them on that!

[seabeyond]

10. hence, me waiting for it to be released. and their version of truth sometimes has not

allowed me to totally trust.

i was being told one thing by that side, and saw it was not factually true. then another and another.

so.... i will continue to listen, decipher truth and not, and pay attention when released.

[Agnosticsherbet]

2. What agreement? Before the TPP is voted on (whether with or without Fast Track)

it will be open for people to read.

I keep seeing this report that it will be voted on without even Congress being allowed to read it. My understanding is that the secrecy enforced while it is being negotiated goes away once it is brought before Congress for approval.

Fast Track reduces the time Congress has to approve it. The Fast Track bill going through Congress now allows Congress ot ammend the bill.

[cali]

5. wrong.

The current iteration of the TPA allows only an up or down vote. It has nothing to do beyond that with a time table, and it's actually a complex piece of legislation that dictates o a number of issues on all future trade deals over the next 6 years.

[Agnosticsherbet]

12. The Fast Track Authority requrested by the President has not yet passed congress. You are wrong.

As of this moment, it would have to go through the normal process.

As of the moment, negotiations have not been completed so the final TPA is not in existance. Congress can not vote on a treaty until it is completed and signed by the President.

This is a link to the Fast Track bill moving through Congress, which has not passed yet.

http://www.finance.senate.gov/download/?id=FEC41212-F7AF-4A6D-BF83-978401999DAF

The previous Fast Track authority gave congress 90 days to read and undestand what the bill was about and then required an up or down vote. During the time when Congress could look at the bill it was open for all citizens to read.

[cali]

17. oh for ffs. i certainly did not claim it had passed

You have no idea what you are talking about. The TPA in nearly identical forms has passed both House Ways and Means committee and the Senate finance committee. vote counting for the legislation is ongoing. Boehner will schedule a vote when he thinks he has enough dems to get to 218.

[Agnosticsherbet]

21. You wrote "the current itteration of the TPA allows only an up or down vote."

It is Fast Track Authority that grants that, not the TPA.

So, yes, you did say that.

[cali]

23. gad. tpa stands for Trade Promotion Authority which IS fast track

Fast track is the colloquial term. TPP stands for Trans-Pacific Partnership which is a trade agreement between twelve Pacific Rim Nations. The TPA governs not only how the TPP and future trade agreements will be voted on by congress (straight up or down) but diets other things as well.

You are confused and you don't know the terminology, but hey keep digging.

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. KnR n/t

[Lil Missy]

16. There is no agreement, it's in negotiation.

And the public will have access to the written form well before the vote on it.

[cali]

18. that is woefully inaccurate

There have been 20 rounds of negotiations and little is left to finalize. I

[Bluenorthwest]

19. I've been a Union member my whole life, and when we negotiate and new contract the drafts

are not released and the parties to the process do not divulge details until an agreement is reached or hope for one is abandoned. Once an agreement is made, that agreement is released and offered to the membership for an up or down vote. It's pretty much negotiation protocol that you don't run about saying you expect jack shit and are already opposed to whatever they do. We do a good faith thing, until we don't. When we don't, it's no holds barred resistance. It's not about trusting anyone, it's about wanting to have a righteous place to shout from if shouting becomes the way of things. 'We tried, we met and we offered concessions. You refused good faith efforts, so fuck you.'
Does your Union do it otherwise?

[ret5hd]

25. Does your union keep the agreement secret for 5 yrs after ratification?

Mine doesn't.

[msanthrope]

26. The TPP won't be secret.....the negotiating drafts will. nt

[Hoyt]

28. And the TPP will be released at least 2 months before Congress takes it up.

I'm betting most people griping about secrecy, won't read it when released.

[blkmusclmachine]

22. Remember when Obama said he was "against" Citizens United???

I think he meant he was against citizens,
united.

[DirkGently]

27. No one looking to help you asks that don't ask how they're doing it.

Elizabeth Warren said recently that the reason given to her for the "classified" status of the TPP is that it would create a public outcry if people knew the terms.

As she rightly observed, the fact that people would object to something their government is a reason they SHOULD know about it, not the other way 'round.

?????

The idea that hundreds of corporate lawyers and their mega-rich clients want to hammer through a massive, binding international economic agreement without amendment or examination or discussion of any kind, but that really it's all good and we shouldn't worry about it is laughable.

Giant Corporations do not labor on massive secret agreements in order to benefit the public good.

That's not how reality works.

[seveneyes]

29. Just a twitch beyond offputting

[Rex]

30. Careful, you will be re-labeled a traitor to the State!

This isn't the trade deal you are looking for...