Statement from a friend who grew up in Baltimore

[stevenleser]

"Look. I'm a Baltimore kid. Nobody wants violence, but people have been pushed to the limit and massive peaceful protests have resulted in no material legislation and no national agenda. What the hell do people expect to happen? -chet..."

The other side of that, a profoundly sad side, is that Chet talks about how parts of Baltimore that were destroyed 40-50 years ago in riots that happened still aren't rebuilt.


That's Chet on the left with Charlie

https://www.facebook.com/chet.whye?fref=ts

[stevenleser]

1. My responses to Chet's posts

Shared this story on one of my favorite forums. I also remember how you mentioned that parts of Baltimore that were destroyed in riots in the 1960s and 1970s are still not rebuilt. Seems to me that if money were invested in the community to not only rebuild those neighborhoods but in other jobs and better training and screening for law enforcement and the other programs as you alluded to via good local and national legislation and a national agenda to create opportunities, we could solve all of this in one stroke. Without that, with how bad things are, I can totally understand the desire and perhaps need to act out and riot.
.
.
.
Way too many people of color being beaten and killed by the police. Thank providence for smart phones and their cameras.

[Egnever]

24. How would that work?

You would mandate money to be spent to prop up business there?

I don't see how that could be done. Where would that money come from? I don't think there would be a rush of people wanting to spend tax money on rebuilding there any more than there was a rush of business beating a path to get back in.

Not to mention the problem of using tax payer money to prop up business. Who would determine what business got that money and how would that affect other businesses in and around those neighborhoods.

Sounds like a decent idea until you think about how that would work.

[Human101948]

40. Watch Richard Wolff's lecture

Maybe you will get some ideas...

[Egnever]

57. On a macro level yes

On the level of individual communities not so much.

I agree with a lot of what this guy said but I don't find the idea that taxing our businesses will return prosperity and jobs to this country credible. This is not 1929 the world has changed significantly since then. He admits to that fact in his speech when he describes the introduction of jet travel and computers but then later forgets the changes that alone business and pretends those changes are no longer relevant.

What FDR did with the new deal was unique to his time. When he made the changes to the tax code there was no credible way for the businesses to relocate. He had them by the balls and as this guy also admits he had the people behind him.

Here on this site daily you see people arguing against a trade agreement that is trying to put labor standards in place to alleviate some of these issues and while you could certainly argue that those negotiate not producing enough the fact that people seem willing to shoot it down despite not really knowing what is in it is a pretty good indication of the attitude of the people of this country when it comes to actually doing something about many of the reasons business is choosing to relocate that this guy accurately describes.

Thanks for posting it though it was an interesting watch.

[mercuryblues]

73. For starters

they can stop using tax payer money to build pro sports stadiums and build schools instead. Let the owners build the field- free market style.

[Egnever]

74. So a stadium built in that town would not be welcomed

Screw the jobs it would bring to the local economy which of course would translate into taxes paid for schools...

I am not sure you are thinking past bumper sticker logic.

[cwydro]

37. A friend of mine who grew up in Baltimore

told me that mall was built to "reinvigorate" the community in which it was built.

Hmmm.

[bigwillq]

2. Pretty much

[cilla4progress]

3. I don't know who we are kidding

America is still divided - segregated; racist; some would still endorse slavery if they could get away with it, I'm quite sure.

[heaven05]

18. +1million

truth....especially the RW, some DINO's-bluedogs and others on that slavery issue.

[calimary]

51. Some people DO endorse slavery.

They're the ones pathetically trying to rewrite history in their insistence that slavery "really wasn't so bad". "Hey, they got fed regularly and had work and a place to live. So what's the problem, then?"

Just turns my stomach.

I've lost count of how many instances in which we have to be vigilant and be ready to rebut and debunk and beat back the lies, and jump out loudly and vigorously to check this bad behavior.

[stevenleser]

4. More from Chet...

Listen. Many of the young picking up a rock do not have a chance in hell of picking up a job this summer. Yet we willfully spend the money to over-police them, to prosecute them, to incarcerate them and to payout settlements for police abuse. Many, many protests in the past year, but if 'nothing' continues to happen, Baltimore is the first explosion of the next level of response. That's not an endorsement - that's a fact. -chet...

[NobodyHere]

5. Maybe if Baltimore didn't burn down it's businesses

There might be more job opportunities.

[stevenleser]

6. The jobs aren't being offered to the folks throwing rocks. Oh and that solves police abuse how again

???

[NobodyHere]

8. Never said anything about it solving police abuse. I don't see how throwing rocks solve it either.

I'm just saying that if you scare businesses away then don't complain about a lack of jobs.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

10. Not only that.. the tax base runs as fast as possible away from high crime areas.

Couple businesses and people leaving Baltimore, its going to either be a controlled crash or a full on crash for those left.

[Half-Century Man]

27. The tax base was shipped away on purpose years ago.

In a large part done via NAFTA.
The base merely collapsed quicker in areas of unfair treatment.

[stevenleser]

55. See my #54 below. nt

[heaven05]

19. oh please

enough!!!!!! With that tripe.....no jobs in the first place and police abuse is the reason........black people by and large don't own businesses in black communities....and those who do own the businesses in the black communities...by and large.....employ their family members.....period. One dimensional, blame the victim tripe.

[1StrongBlackMan]

22. +1 ...

Life is so simple for the unaffected.

[jwirr]

39. Years ago a book named "When Work Disappears" talked about the disappearance of jobs today.

The surprise is that it started by talking about the era when jobs left the inner cities and that was not because of violence. The author talked about the aging of factories and the need to rebuild. They did not rebuild in the inner cities but instead removed to the suburbs. That is when this no jobs for black communities started and it had nothing to do with riots. Racism - yes.

The book continued to talk about the move from suburbs to the south to developing countries and cheap labor.

These kids have not had job opportunities for years. The urban renewal programs did little in the inner cities and what they did do was not finished. It is true that companies do not want to move into inner cities but rioting is most likely on the bottom of their reasoning. They cannot compete with the slave wages in the rest of the world and they are not going to locate where the poor do not have money to spend anyhow.

[1StrongBlackMan]

21. The last burning was 50 years ago ...

One would think that's long enough to get over that fear. Oh, wait ...

[Egnever]

26. Looks like it would have been a pretty bad decision to ignore it

Being burned to the ground once every 50 years is not exactly an enticing environment for investment.

If you had gone with the theory you suggest two months ago you would be kicking yourself today.

[1StrongBlackMan]

29. Yeah. Okay ...

Let's forget about the investments in capital in other parts of Maryland that would have rebuilt that which was built and the investments in "policing" that is the proximate cause of this burning.

[Egnever]

33. Was there disproportionate investment in other parts of the state?

Would like to see info on that.

[1StrongBlackMan]

36. Yes ...

http://nhi.org/online/issues/147/privilegedplaces.html

[Egnever]

44. That was a fairly general article with no real numbers

It was mostly centered on urban verses city life and the differences. An interesting read just the same.

[Travis_0004]

34. Its not fear, Its accounting

Our company had a building burn down from a lightning strike. Profits were low because of higher theft, security cost etc employee turnover, so we didnt rebuilt. If the same building burned down elsewhere we would have rebuilt.

As a business we want to expand and make money, but if people are not welcoming then we will go elsewhere. Even if 99% of our customers were great, the 1% can ruin it for everybody else. In our case we were not going to close the store but we were not going to invest 1 million to rebuild. The riots are just giving business owners an opportunity to reevaluate if they want to be there or not.

[1StrongBlackMan]

38. Okay. n/t

[cilla4progress]

25. These are kids, largely, as I understand it.

frustrated teenagers. I wouldn't expect them to be "rational". Especially in an insane system.

Reminds me of the 1960s French film, King of Hearts. Who are the truly irrational ones?

[Human101948]

42. A small minority of people in that community are causing damage...

yet you tar the entire community with your broad brush. Do you express the same disdain for the white folks who trash police cars and vandalize businesses after their sports team wins or loses a meaningless playoff?

It seems I read reports yesterday of many protestors trying to deflect the people causing damage. (I recall similar reports of incidents in Ferguson.) What's your take on that?

[stevenleser]

54. Actually, often it does, as this Rolling Stone Article proves

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/smashy-smashy-nine-historical-triumphs-to-make-you-rethink-property-destruction-20141021#ixzz3YcqqrFRS

Smashy Smashy: Nine Historical Triumphs to Make You Rethink Property Destruction

After Officer Darren Wilson shot teenager Michael Brown dead this summer, Ferguson, Missouri, erupted with outrage, compassion and street protests. The response from many corners of the commentariat was predictable: condemnations of those "bad elements" among the protesters who resorted to property destruction as their demonstration of resistance. After two more high-profile incidents of cops shooting St. Louis black men to death, protesters even burned Old Glory, eliciting still more scandalized gasps from the usual crowd.

While drunken, rioting white college students may be surprised by how the cycle of condemnation plays out, it's a familiar refrain for anyone who's been involved in Occupy Wall Street, the anti-Iraq War movement, or any of dozens of other protest cycles: The "good" protesters march, carry signs and make their voices heard, but anyone who smashes, burns or vandalizes contaminates the otherwise defensible show of democracy.

This attitude is complicated by the facts, to say the least. In fact, the historical pedigree of property destruction as a tactic of resistance is long and frequently effective. To cite just one example, in recent years the largest police reform packages were only adopted after large-scale rioting. Here are nine more instances to call into question the conventional wisdom about good old Smashy-Smashy.
.
.
.
(more at above link)

[bravenak]

68. Awesome article, thanks!

[stevenleser]

70. Someone else posted an OP based on it. It is a great article and it makes sense.

If folks aren't listening, this is one way to make them.

We would all it rather not get there, but it is what it is.

[ohheckyeah]

79. Great article.

Thanks.

[jeff47]

9. Baltimore lost a $39M case for giving a "rough ride" years ago.

$39M would rebuild a lot of businesses. Maybe Baltimore should rein in its police force, so they can stop paying out massive judgements and instead invest in local businesses.

[Hekate]

13. +1

[appalachiablue]

32. A caller on Thom Hartmann's program just now mentioned how Balto. cases like that were

prosecuted previously. The crimes should never happen, but agree that police brutality legal settlements drain local funds that could be used for far better purposes like business growth.

[libdem4life]

11. Or, if a kid hadn't been hassled, ticketed, fined, incarcerated for "meeting the eyes" a policeman

they might qualify for a job. Once you get a "record"...and seems the police are willing to render that possibility while the kids are still in high school, then what?

Baltimore hasn't "burned down its businesses" for 30 years. I had credit problems, and with a strong professional history, degree, licenses, I still can't find a job. You might check for one-liner judgements that make no sense.

Here's another idea...ask Obama not to send more jobs overseas and get the Republicans to get off their lily whites and pass some legislation that actually supports poor and lower-middle class, while cutting food stamps, SS for the elderly, probably public assistance, too.

[Hekate]

12. ^^^This^^^

[NobodyHere]

14. Just because other people do things that make your life harder

Doesn't mean it's a wise idea to add to the problems.

[libdem4life]

16. With all due respect to the one-liner here, what are you talking about? n/t

[1StrongBlackMan]

23. He/she is saying ...

Just because he/she breaks your wing, that's no excuse for not flying.

[libdem4life]

35. Oh, I get it. Silly me. Kind of like yelling and man/woman-handling Freddie Gray for not walking

properly (with injured legs) and for not being respectful by calmly depositing himself in the Paddy Wagon getting ready for his "rough ride". Then, to make it even worse, he did not say thank you to the fine officers, instead yelling oh so very loud and disrespectfully.

[Half-Century Man]

30. An animal caught in a snap trap will chew off it's own foot.

Panic, despair, hunger, desperation, anger, and repetitively being lied to are not conducive to wisdom.

[ann---]

76. We are not animals

Humans can use reason and common sense. The only
time instinct will work when it kicks in for self-defense.

Intentionally looting and causing fires and damage is NOT
reasonable. I don't know how anyone can think it is.

[Half-Century Man]

81. We are, in fact, animals; mammals, highest order of great apes. Descendants of African plains apes

The fact we have the ability to reason does not mean we will.
People riot because one group of physically fit millionaires play with a ball slightly better than a second group...or didn't. There have been riots over slight variations of the same mythical sky dwellers. Riots over purchases of a robot with extremely limited capabilities crammed in a teddy bear.
If a brutal blunt trauma killing at the end of a long term chain of brutal treatment and killings sparks a social protest of tens of thousands of people; and one hundred or so of the reaching the age where they will bear the brunt of the abuse in the future express their collective anger in the oppressions, disappointments, intolerances, and broken promises through violence against property instead of outright insurrection; fine. That is understandable.
No, it doesn't make a great deal of sense. People sometimes don't.
It's counterproductive, works against best interests. We do stupid shit. People vote republican.

As a last point, I think you might underestimate instinct. It helps us with self defense yes, but also cause us to gather in groups, protect each other, protect our young, balance, express ourselves in crafts and art, etc.



Just my take on it of course.

[ann---]

82. Animal species cannot reason

When you put yourself on their level you forget you
have the power to reason - they don't.

Riots with looting, setting fires that destroy businesses
and homes is NOT the way to handle injustice. It is
actually MORE injustice to the very people you don't
want treated unjustly.

I will never, ever understand how people actually think
"rioting" (not demonstrating) is ever a way to behave
in ANY circumstance.

[Half-Century Man]

83. Animals reason.

Whales talk, chimps and bonobos make tools, wolves use drive/ambush hunting techniques.

Riots happen for a number of reasons, some of which I find understandable some I find incomprehensible. Riots are also illegal and people are arrested and punished for them(disproportionately African Americans).

Historically, riots by African Americans target property in their local area, with little loss of life. Cause usually severe, well documented, abuses and outright murders, typically at the end of a long chain of suppression.

Riots by Caucasians historically target African American communities. Such as the 1921 Tulsa riots which killed 39 officially (estimates from other sources than the all white Tulsa government range from 55 to 300), hospitalized 800, burned 35 blocks of the city including both of the hospitals African American were allowed to use and most of the AA owned businesses. Cause "protecting white women".

Riots are not planned, they are spontaneous occurrences; there is no "think" about them.

You not being able to understand how reasons, real or imagined, might exist indicate to me you very likely have a stark view of the world. I will be so bold as to suggest the works of Maya Angelou and Langston Hughes.
Good luck on your journey, I think you will need it.

[stevenleser]

49. How is it adding to the problems. These folks wont get jobs either way. There has been little

progress on police abuse, employment, etc. in 40+ years.

Without this, how would they have even gotten your attention, misdirected as it is?

[heaven05]

20. +1000

[appalachiablue]

45. +1 So true. A 'record', the ubiquitous 'credit report', practically anything can be officially

used to exclude people from jobs, housing and more. The odious credit report has expanded in the last 15 years but was never used for job applications that I recall, only for mortgages and credit cards. Five years ago a friend had to rent cars for a couple months and each time he went to the dealer he made sure to bring the stub for a recent small pension he received. Nothing was ever said, but the reps. approved an extension or new rental due to that, in spite of the fact that he had good credit, credit cards and was a home owner.

For employment the credit report should be abolished period. Someone, maybe Martin O'Malley just brought up the subject. I hope it has a chance, but with banks in control who knows. How sad that young people know this data and others are essential to their lives now, like test scores. As well, arrest and criminal records shouldn't be used unless relevant to the work. This may be addressed in some cases now, like Apple's construction force I think.

[libdem4life]

47. I believe New York State just passed a law that a credit report cannot be used in a hiring decision.

Like they say, many people are one paycheck from bankruptcy. Well, I know that many people are just one car accident away from debt and medical bills ruining their life.

[appalachiablue]

52. Glad to hear that about NY state. I also know many who are now one paycheck, accident or

illness away from financial and personal disaster, with few to no family and friends to help out since they're in similar circumstances. Brutal reality with no change in sight I fear-

[libdem4life]

67. Well, look at it this way...we're one state closer...just 49 left to go. Perhaps it's one of those

shifts, but the credit reporting industry will holler...because it will definitely hurt their weasely actions...the Scrooges of the 21st Century...ruined many a person's financial life and all else. Often just by making a "mistake". Try to get it off...need attorneys.

[appalachiablue]

69. Yep one down & 49 to go, not impossible esp. if a wave as you say. I'm not worried about losses

for these financial tools, they've made more than enough and have hurt many. I know one of unholy trinity has located to Bolivia or somewhere according to Mike Papantonio, and you can never reach them or receive a reply. So you have to pay a lawyer now to correct errors? Another racket, wow.

(Forgot late husband worked briefly for Equifax ages go, mainly collections I think. No one had heard of them back then before finance became so powerful, 'Gods').

[Buzz Clik]

28. Looky here! We have a live one.

You're a long way from home.

[frylock]

48. is this something that happens there on a daily basis..

or are you making a snap judgment on something you really know nothing about?

[TerrapinFlyer]

50. So really what you are saying, is they are burning down the wrong neighborhoods.

When it comes to your area, then I bet you start paying attention to the real issues.

[grasswire]

53. absolutely right

Keep in mind that incarcerating an individual costs taxpayers upwards of $50,000 a year -- to say nothing of associated costs to society.

It would be cheaper to make jobs.

However, then the industry surrounding criminal justice and its weaponization would be deprived of billions of dollars.

As usual, follow the dollar.

So when a race war breaks out, rich people and corporations get even richer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. That sounds exactly like my kids

Exactly. On the other side of the county. Not that we matter.

[Downwinder]

7. Did they know 40 years ago that the sea was going

to claim Baltimore and decide not to invest there?

[Hekate]

15. Thanks for bringing this, Steve. nt

[RufusTFirefly]

17. Major K & R!

Thanks for sharing this, Steven!

[jwirr]

31. I honestly think that is why the police stood back and let it happen. If the damage from 1968

is still not repaired the police and the other communities of Baltimore do not loss anything. Thus they allowed it until it was totally out of hand and then they rush in as if they are heroes and use force to stop it.

A probation officer once told me that the law enforcement in our area only works to keep the crimes out of their community. They did not care what was happening on the reservation. Today the tribe has their own police force and that has stopped. But this is what I saw as I was watching last night.

[msanthrope]

43. I lived in Baltimore for 10 years. I was crying last night, but

unsurprised......there are whole patches of that city that have been completely and utterly abandoned and the people who have been abandoned to live in those patches are desperate. I would never excuse or condone violence in any waybut I'm completely not shocked that the Baltimore City police have pushedthings to this point.

[appalachiablue]

46. Great OP, thanks. We have wonderful memories of times in Balto., great city. So tragic, wrong.

[ann---]

56. Violence and looting

are NOT the answer to injustice. More injustice against innocents
(businesses and police who didn't harm Freddie Gray or anyone else)
will only get people to ignore their needs after this.

[stevenleser]

58. Apparently they are very effective last resorts to injustice. See my #54 above.

Without it, we wouldnt even be talking about what happened in Baltimore.

[ann---]

59. Sorry, I disagree

Rosa Parks didn't loot or set a cop car
on fire and look what she started.

There is absolutely NO justification
for the behavior of those who are violent and
stealing from innocents. Protests do not have
to include that. It defeats the purpose.

I cannot believe that anyone would think that is ok.

[stevenleser]

60. The Rolling Stone article lists nine cases that show you are wrong. I am sure there are more.

I am generally against violence and war. But I do not begrudge others responding to violence, discrimination and being ignored with the only tools available to them.

You are commenting as if you think the black community was sitting on its hands and doing nothing until now. There are many African American groups trying to fight for equality and opportunity and meeting a lot of resistance.

[ann---]

71. I don't agree with the article

Setting fire to the businesses of innocent people (who may
also be minorities) and stealing what does not belong to you
is NEVER an option to make oneself "noticed."

The level-headed minorities are doing all they can to prevent
another night of violence because they KNOW that is NOT
the answer to their problems. It never is.

[stevenleser]

72. You can disagree with heliocentrism too, but the facts are similarly against you.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

[ann---]

75. You have "facts"

to prove that violence, looting and setting fires causing so
much damage works? I don't think so.

[stevenleser]

77. Yes, I do. Once again, the Rolling Stone article gives nine examples. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Ethics I know

Can I use your friend's statement in a story? I am working on a longer narrative as to causes. This, people are getting pushed, is a national narrative.

[stevenleser]

62. He will probably say yes. I will pm you his cell. Let him know I gave it to you. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Ok

[stevenleser]

65. I texted him. He is expecting your call at your convenience. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Getting home where I got a notebook

[elleng]

78. Same situation here,

have African American friends in and around Balto, and its interesting and heart wrenching to read their experiences and points of view.

[Vattel]

80. More rationalizations for violence. Just what Baltimore doesn't need.