We need to be realistic for a moment, I Love Bernie, bless him

[Hutzpa]

but quite honestly I don't think he has the appeal to win nationwide, you may disagree, but I'm sure majority
of you understand that Bernie will be a tough sell.

Let's discuss.

[patricia92243]

1. YOU start the discussion - why can he not win? I don't know

too much about him.

[brooklynite]

85. Why can he not win? Some reasons...

1. He is a self-described socialist. It doesn't matter if he described himself as a "Democratic Socialist"; the distinction will be over the head of the average voter.

2. He's too liberal. As much as people talk about engaging the Party's left flank, most of the voters are in the middle. These are voters he hasn't had to deal with in his Vermont elections.

3. He won't have the financial resources to compete. It's great to spend six months visiting people in Iowa and New Hampshire, but eventually, the race will move to larger States were paid media and paid staff are critical. He doesn't have the ability to raise $100 M for the Primary (Hillary's target) and $1 B + for the General (the Koch Brothers target).

4. He's too old. Yes, Hillary is old as well, but she's poised and energetic, and doesn't look her age. Voters, cynical as it may be, want a candidate who's polished and exudes energy.

[JaneyVee]

86. Gonna be sad to see him lose.

Hopefully he keeps his senate seat.

[cali]

134. don't ever worry about that, Bernie is always one of the most popular

Senators. His approval rating is around 70%.

This is Vermont. Land of independent minded liberals. Bernie is safe as can be.

Happy to reassure you.

Now if Pat votes for the TPA, he might get a strong challenger. Either a dem or someone from VT Progressive Party, like state senator (and organic farmer) David Zuckerman.

[Agschmid]

117. .

1. He is a self-described socialist. It doesn't matter if he described himself as a "Democratic Socialist"; the distinction will be over the head of the average voter.

- I'd push back that the RW sold Obama as a Socialist (remember that crazy McCain lady, and the video)... So clearly America voted B.O. In even when called a socialist.

2. He's too liberal. As much as people talk about engaging the Party's left flank, most of the voters are in the middle. These are voters he hasn't had to deal with in his Vermont elections.

- VT Is funny, I'd love to spend more time on this or get Cali's input but from the early 2000's VT had Republican Governor (Douglas), this Governor had high % of the electoral vote carry him... So did Sanders so there was some cross over. Now a big caveat is that a VT Republican is probably nothing like a TX Republican, but drive outside Burlington and its gets pretty red.

3. He won't have the financial resources to compete. It's great to spend six months visiting people in Iowa and New Hampshire, but eventually, the race will move to larger States were paid media and paid staff are critical. He doesn't have the ability to raise $100 M for the Primary (Hillary's target) and $1 B + for the General (the Koch Brothers target).

- Bernie will be able to fundraise much like Obama did "from the people". I do think this is his biggest hurdle, but really only in the Primary. I think if he did get to the GE there would be money, sure probably not as much as Hillary but I imagine many D donors would still donate?

4. He's too old. Yes, Hillary is old as well, but she's poised and energetic, and doesn't look her age. Voters, cynical as it may be, want a candidate who's polished and exudes energy.

- Yup, Ageism in politics sucks.

[CTyankee]

120. Ya know, I take the long view...I think Bernie wants to inject his ideas into the

political debate early on. He knows his ideas have currency with a growing number of people in this country right now. The old political agenda isn't working for most Americans. Bernie's time has come to refresh the debate and get people started thinking about inequality. In a democracy, that's the only way you can influence the political infrastructure.

Already we have seen Elizabeth Warren pull HRC to the left and Bernie's entrance into the race is another pull. I'm glad he's doing this!

[Sheepshank]

167. I actually think that *this* ^^ is the the reason Bernie is in the race

To encourage the enlightening debate, to have the lefty leaning gravitational pull on HRC. It's a good cause and while I adore Sanders, I just don't think (for the very reasons enumerated a few posts up) he will win the Dem nomination. I think if he was intent on really running for the WH, he would have done so as an I and not switch to D. On another thread someone posted that 40% of the voting public identifies as I. not sure where that number came from, but if it's true, switching to D wasn't the right move.

[CTyankee]

169. Hey, GMTA!

The republicans might have started worrying about what Bernie's doing. Their loonies are getting loonier every day and further isolated from what voters are really caring about. They're afraid that income inequality will become the defining issue in 2016 and they must be feeling vulnerable...

[Sheepshank]

171. At the risk of sounding kinda dumb...what is GMTA? n/t

[CTyankee]

172. Great Minds Think Alike

[Sheepshank]

174. ahhhhhh, honored.

[joeybee12]

170. I agree...his entry changes the conversation...

And I think that's his goal.

[LondonReign2]

127. You could have summarized: Not right wing enough to be a Third Wayer

[Marr]

146. +1

[stone space]

128. Ah...the S-Word.

1. He is a self-described socialist. It doesn't matter if he described himself as a "Democratic Socialist"; the distinction will be over the head of the average voter.

Ah, the L-Word.

2. He's too liberal. As much as people talk about engaging the Party's left flank, most of the voters are in the middle. These are voters he hasn't had to deal with in his Vermont elections.

[brooklynite]

129. You're welcome to challenge my assessments...

Doesn't bother me personally, but I learned long ago that not everyone sees the world the way I do.

[stone space]

135. The S-Word doesn't bother me.

As for the L-Word, I'm old enough to mentally insert the phrase "Cold War" in front of it every time I hear the L-Word, and that one doesn't have such pleasant connotations for me.

So, of the two, I personally find the L-Word thingie a little more off-putting.

I mean, if I'm forced to choose.

Maybe Democrats should just stop using the L-Word?

[ieoeja]

141. "He's too Liberal". Examples? n/t

[morningfog]

185. Yeah, we can't afford your perspective.

[brooklynite]

198. Can you afford a Republican getting elected?

it's great to support candidate that, hypothetically advocates Single Payer health care and a return to 90% marginal tax rates...unless the candidate loses.

[morningfog]

200. "Hypothetically advocates Single Payer?"

Huh?

[brooklynite]

213. Bernie Sanders hasn't announced his campaign yet, so I'm not presuming his message

[morningfog]

221. He's not like other candidates. His campaign platform will be consistent with his

voting record and his history.

He will tout his records and you can rely on his previous positions. There is no mystery as to where he stands on any given issue. One thing that is so great about him.

[morningfog]

222. He's announced. And Single Payer is not a hypothetical position.

Bernie has the issues that he is running on well defined with policy proposals right on his website:

The health insurance lobby and other opponents of single-payer care make it sound scary. It’s not. In fact, a large-scale single-payer system already exists in the United States. It’s called Medicare. People enrolled in the system give it high marks. More importantly, it has succeeded in providing near-universal coverage to Americans over the age of 65.

Establishing a single-payer system will mean peace of mind for all Americans. When health insurance is no longer tied to employment, people will not fear losing both their job and their family’s access to health care. Millions of Americans won’t have to stay in jobs they don’t like because their family needs health care. Entrepreneurs and small businesses will be free to develop their business plans without worrying about the cost and complexity of providing health care for themselves and their employees.

For these reasons and more, Rep. Jim McDermott and I have introduced the American Health Security Act, which would guarantee health care as a human right and provide every U.S. citizen and permanent resident with health care coverage and services through a state-administered, single-payer program.

I am very proud that my home state of Vermont is now taking big steps to lead the nation in health care by moving forward on a plan to establish a single-payer health care system that puts the interests of patients over corporate profits. The American Health Security Act would make sure every state does the same.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/

[whatchamacallit]

147. And there it is...

Remember this exchange from a few days ago?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6573335

[darkangel218]

177. He won't win because hes "too liberal"

Lmao!!! Now I heard it all.

[leftofcool]

2. We shall see.

[djean111]

3. Well, I don't think Hillary has the appeal to win nationwide. But hey, this is what the

primaries are for! Should be quite a year!

[leftofcool]

4. Well, hopefully Bernie will poll as high as Hillary once he announces.

[stillwaiting]

15. That's a ridiculous expectation. What we will see is Bernie polling higher and higher as more

and more people become aware of his positions, views, history, and no-nonsense style of communication throughout the primary campaign process.

Hopefully.

[daleanime]

18. +1

[peacebird]

22. +1

[djean111]

27. A lot of HRC support seems based on name-recognition polls, not on policy.

Based on her gender, not on policy. So no surprise there.

[Thinkingabout]

75. My support of Hillary is because of her stand on the issuces, yes, I know the name but

again I am not going by name recognition and the same could be said of Bernie also. I want to see a female president in my life but again my decision to support for Hillary is not based on the fact she is a female any more than another's support for a man just because he is a man. Yes, I support Hillary on policy.

[VanillaRhapsody]

102. Oh she has NO record at all that the people know anything about right?

I mean sheesh...WTF do the people KNOW about her besides her name right?

[djean111]

139. Actually, you are the one who posts about her poll results and such incessantly. 75% OF DEMOCRATS!!

And, you know, we shall see how this all turns out. You surely are not trying to persuade anyone to join you, you seem to just jeer or whatever. Again, we shall see how the primaries roll out, won't we. And knowing about HRC's record is a two-edged sword - H-1B visas, the TPP, and hawkishness come to mind.

[VanillaRhapsody]

149. are you saying I am the only American that knows her record?

[djean111]

165. Bye-bye, Ms. Non-sequitur thread-jacker. Don't roll around laughing and hurt yourself, now.

You don't represent HRC very well, you know. But you do represent her, to me.

[frylock]

113. People are finding Brand A to be more appealing.

[Marr]

136. Yep, and if history is any indication, her numbers will slowly erode over time, as people

see more of her.

She simply isn't as likeable as her fans think she is.

[VanillaRhapsody]

150. If history has shown ANYTHING....its that NOBODY has EVER had these numbers in recorded history....

She is simply much more likeable than the Griefers care to admit!

[Marr]

156. I realize *you* think she's wonderful and charming.

Maybe most other people do, too-- I don't know. And neither do you.

What we do know is that her numbers have tended to erode over time as people see more of her. That, to me, does not speak of a particularly 'likeable' personality.

[VanillaRhapsody]

160. I realize YOU don't realize that MOST people agree with me not you about Hillary Clinton!

and as long as she polls beating ALL Republicans....and until someone produces a candidate that can do better than her at THAT....she has my support. That is all.

[merrily]

161. "You're likeable enough, Hillary>"

That remark came after a debate moderator asked Hillary about the perception that she was not likeable.

I have seen some videos of her recently and I do think she's worked on that.

[VanillaRhapsody]

153. and HOW Long HAS Bernie been a Senator now?

You think Americans just don't know him enough?

[arcane1]

176. Too many Americans can't even name their OWN senators.

That's a pathetically low bar.

[VanillaRhapsody]

195. and that proves my point.....he hasn't even made an impression on them in ALL this time

they DO know who many of the Senators are....particularly those with long records!

By the way, even that drip Luke Russert admitted this morning that Bernie doesn't HAVE to become a Democrat to run in the Primary!

[hack89]

210. They knew who Obama was. nt

[arcane1]

211. Once he started getting nationwide media attention, yes.

[hack89]

214. No - well before that

he made a huge splash in 2004 as the keynote speaker at the Democratic Convention and entered 2007 with a national recognition level close to 40%. Bernie polls in the single digits.

[arcane1]

215. That "splash" was, by definition, media attention, since the convention is broadcast nation-wide.

Your average, non-political-junkie will only learn of a politician if they appear on tv frequently enough.

Sanders hasn't been the keynote speaker at the convention before, so the comparison is false.

[hack89]

216. The point is Bernie is starting in a huge hole

it is hard and expensive to raise your recognition level in a crowded chaotic media universe where you are competing against lots of other politicians.

How can Bernie get on tv frequently enough in 50 states to make a difference? He has no money and no organization.

[arcane1]

217. Agreed! I donated to him today, and he's been putting something together for months now.

He also has the apparatus of the Democratic party, just like the rest of them.

O'Malley isn't exactly a household name either. The point of having a campaign is to get the word out there if it's not out there already. I'll be doing my best!

[hack89]

218. Have fun. I have always enjoyed political campaigns. Nt

[pnwmom]

19. She's going to have a 50 state organization. She's been preparing this for years.

How would Bernie pull that off?

[peacebird]

25. With people like me who will work for him, people who don't trust HRC

[Ed Suspicious]

206. Me as well. And he can have my money after my bills are paid.

[VanillaRhapsody]

152. and with NO money to boot!

I mean if he accepts ANY corporate money at all...he becomes a hypocrite to his followers.....and without it...he cannot beat Jeb Bush...

What a conundrum!

[arcane1]

219. One needn't be rich or corporate-financed to run for president. And Bush would get his ass kicked :)

He SUCKS!!

Perhaps he'll inspire people to donate small amounts in large quantity, instead of sitting around and expecting millionaires to fund the candidates.

Participation!

[VanillaRhapsody]

220. You are right...you don't need it to run...

you need it to win.

Until we get campaign finance reform...

Do not for a minute think otherwise...

Why do you think Bernie is running under the Democratic flag in the first damn place?

[seveneyes]

5. I say we (verb)Primary Bernie

Thereby casting the first vote.

[Maedhros]

6. I think he definitely has the appeal to win.

For one, he talks straight, and two, he speaks to ordinary Americans about the real problems they face.

[JEB]

93. There it is in a nut shell.

People are desperate for an authentic candidate who understands the issues and bases his policies on that understanding and the basic principles that have guided hid career. Americans are sick to death of waffling, triangulation and trying to be all things for all people. And they are certainly sick of bowing down to corporate and financial interests. I think Bernie will be hard for any other candidate to beat.

[Autumn]

7. I think we can sell him and bless you too.

[think]

8. He voted against our pre-emptive war and calls out corporate malfeasance without waivering.

If issues matter Bernie is spot on....

[Hutzpa]

11. Sure

his stance on social issues is what propels him above Hillary, he is much more progressive than she is, but we have to look at thee
bigger picture which is keeping the White House. Who gives us a better chance of winning? Who will be much more appealing to
our youths come November 2016.

[peacebird]

33. Bernie. Authentic is more appealing than pragmatic.

Bernie speaks from the heart, for the people. And his record shows that as well.
HRC.... She is trying to talk like Warren... But she is not convincing.

[think]

66. Real issues & solutions might actually appeal to the youth over the usual pandering and charades

of the American politic.

The Iraq war was something America should never have been allowed to happen. Hell, the UN refused to go along with it! Bernie did his best.

the GOP candidates offers no vision and policies that transparently favor the corporations and the wealthy. They completely suck in the areas of humanity.

Still the corporations will throw gobs of money at anyone they can get to defeat Bernie. And they'll work avidly to smear his character. I don't doubt that.

Let's hope honesty, decency and smart policy still hold some value in the hearts and minds of the American people.

Maybe like many of us the general public is sick of shenanigans, charades, & pandering and ready for the real deal....

[LondonReign2]

82. No, Bernie's stance on ECONOMIC issues is what propels him above Hillary

Economic issues, not social issues, is where there is a gaping chasm between their positions.

[Marr]

148. Social issues?

No, it's his stance on economic issues-- particularly Wall Street and the 1%, that people like about him. Right-of-center Democrats are the ones that depend on social issues as liberal bonafides.

[Mnpaul]

73. Who wants those messy issues?

Bernie's message will never sell with the American public

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

100. Greenspan was one Ayn Rands acolytes

You thing he gave a shit what Bernie had to say?

[Cheese Sandwich]

9. The biggest challenge is he will be swamped over by Hillary Clinton's money

Bernie will be up against the combined power of the Wall Street banks, the defense contractors, the oil companies, the drug and insurance companies, all piling on cash to guarantee a Clinton coronation.

So yeah it will be an uphill battle.

But if Bernie can get his message out, his views are in sync with the views of the voters more so than any other candidate.

If people vote on issues he will win.

[LondonReign2]

126. Completely agree

Big money is going to come out full force against Bernie for speaking the truth. What American politics has become -- money, looks, and sound bites-- completely sucks. He is going to have a hell of a time getting his message out, but I sure admire his bravery and will be supporting him in the primaries.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. I think we think what the tv tells us to think: "I love Bernie, but I must be the only one"

He's saying what we all know in our hearts to be true. It is only when we listen to the very serious people, that we realize how silly we (all) are.

[Jefferson23]

12. I don't think anyone should underestimate the very good Senator nor the American voter. n/t

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

13. Not about him winning. He knows the likelihood is he wont, but you never know. What it is

about is getting the issues out there.

And NOT just for Hillary to deal with, remember who the other party is.

The other party HATES working people, so Bernie has a lot to offer

[IphengeniaBlumgarten]

54. I think he want to ensure that Hilary has to deal with his issues

He's hoping to pull her in his direction. I don't think he really expects to win the nomination, he just wants to prevent her from moving too far to the right.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

101. This ^ ^ ^ ^

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. I stopped at "bless him."

[bigwillq]

107. .....

[Hiraeth]

159. Thank you. Although I had to add my 2 cents below. GMTA.

[seabeyond]

16. i like the, we shall see, mode. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

17. gosh I just don't give a shit about that.

I've heard that line of bullshit for 40 years, and when listened to we get "democrats" who are basically to the right of nixon - we get "reagan democrats", and we get fucked and then we hang out for eight years after we manage to win a presidential election and wonder why we are getting the same rightwing shit shifted ever so slightly to the left.

We wonder why we got Bob Dole's Health Care Plan, when the fact of the matter is we elected Bob Dole.

I'll vote for the candidate that best represents the democratic wing of the democratic party.

[Hutzpa]

20. I think it more about using wisdom than using our hearts to think

would you rather have a republican president or have another democrat as president?

[Warren Stupidity]

21. You are asking which of the two republicans would I like elected.

I would like a democrat elected. If the democrat doesn't get past the primary, then I'll settle for the less awful of the two republicans running.

hearts? no it is about POLICY.

[peacebird]

37. +1000

[Hutzpa]

39. We had this same problem with Kerry in '04

our goal should be to ensure a wider margin of victory to prevent the republicans from stealing the votes, and we all know
they will do it if it is a close race.

Popular votes matters.

[Warren Stupidity]

47. Sorry no, my goal is to change the system.

I do not care at all about electing "our republican" in order to continue a system that I think is an unsustainable criminal endeavor.

[Hutzpa]

51. What is unsustainable criminal endeavor?

nt.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. The current system.

The one that has been locked in place since Reagan. Call it whatever you want - the kleptocracy, the duopoly, 21st American Triumphalism, post communist capitalism, the Raw Deal. Whatever the fuck label you want to put on it - it has produced inequality unseen since before WWI, created a global security state and permanent war, and is driving human society into a self induced growth and climate crisis with full knowledge that billions of people are going to be at risk. Sorry, I can't support that crap anymore.

[hifiguy]

72. "The Raw Deal."

That has legs, I think. Excellent!

[Hutzpa]

74. And you feel strongly that Bernie will be able to change that

how?

[GoneOffShore]

199. Stealing "The Raw Deal"

Brilliant.

[Warren Stupidity]

207. Please propagate everywhere.

[hifiguy]

71. This. I am done, in Jerry Seinfeld's words,

of rooting for laundry rather than people.

[Sheepshank]

173. Dems are NOT Reps......not by a long shot

otherwise you will be telling me that you'd be just fine and dandy with Cruz in Office? Why should anyone vote, why have a primary at all? Why should anyone turn up at a rally why should anyone even bother with the electoral process?

You are completely and utterly wrong on this.

[Warren Stupidity]

180. No, I'll vote for the other republican in the race.

I made that perfectly clear. If the Approved Candidate wins the Democratic Party Primary, then I will have a choice of two Republicans, again, in the presidential election and I will select the less horrible one. Same as 2012, 2008, 2004, 2000, 1996, 1992.

[Sheepshank]

189. nope...they are not the same. your trite couplet is just wrong

[Warren Stupidity]

196. Where did I say they were the same?

Your strawman is noted.

[hootinholler]

23. You really should get to know him better

Then you'll realize why he doesn't need to be sold to win.

[VanillaRhapsody]

34. You still think the American voting public is like DU don't you?

I assure you it is not...

[hootinholler]

40. When did I ever think that?

Your assertion, back it up please.

Perhaps you should find out a little more about Bernie.

[VanillaRhapsody]

48. You seem to think its going to be easy for Bernie....perhaps you should find out more about the

the American voters...

Bernie's odds of winning right now? O!!!

http://www.predictwise.com/politics/2016DemNomination

Bernie would have a shot if only it were held on just DU!

[djean111]

58. Well then, no need for you to keep repeating yourself in threads about Bernie, I would think!

[VanillaRhapsody]

60. Why...does the truth bother you to hear?

I like truth....I like it just fine...

[djean111]

67. Bwah! You are funny! And that's all the thread-jacking I will enable for today. Bye.

[VanillaRhapsody]

106. Yes I know....

I am very funny...all my friends say so!

[hootinholler]

70. Funny you used the capital O for zero

I'm pretty sure that President Obama had the same odds 15 months before the primary, but I could be wrong on that one.

You seem to think it will be easy for Hillary.

Bernie's used to those odds, and has a history of winning those odds.

Hillary has a history.

[VanillaRhapsody]

108. No actually he didn't....

he never had ZERO chance as soon as he gave that speech it was on. Now Bernie has been around forever...funny he doesn't have name recognition of his own after all these years...don't you agree?

...and yes I accidentally typed an O....but the link I provided takes care of the typo....it shows exactly what I said!

and I never said it was going to be easy for Hillary....but I sure do like her odds against the field:

http://www.predictwise.com/politics/2016president

Don't you?

[Comrade Grumpy]

104. It's Democratic primary voters who are going to matter.

We'll see how Bernie does against the machine.

[hifiguy]

24. People power has won before.

Why not here?

[brooklynite]

88. Cory Aquino ran against a 15 year dictatorship...

Hillary Clinton is actually popular.

[Pooka Fey]

26. Is "be realistic" a code for "Don't fuck this up for Hillary"?

[djean111]

31. Bingo!!!!!!

[hifiguy]

38. Eeyup. nt

[Enrique]

28. same with obama

nice enough guy but let's be realistic about it

[Maedhros]

188. There's NO WAY someone with the middle name "Hussein" will be elected President! [n/t]

[cherokeeprogressive]

29. Frankly, I don't care whether he's a tough sell or not. If Bernie wants to run...

Welcome to the Party, Mr. Sanders!

[VanillaRhapsody]

32. Where does it say he is BECOMING a Democrat?

[cherokeeprogressive]

43. It's "Welcome to the Party!" as in "Hey, can I get you something to drink?"

I hope you didn't just hurt your knee.

[VanillaRhapsody]

50. My knees are fine....and they are both Democrats...imagine that!

[Alittleliberal]

114. Nope

No agenda here.

[VanillaRhapsody]

30. It doesn't matter...he is not planning to become a Democrat...

good luck with that plan Bernie!

[think]

36. Baloney

http://nypost.com/2015/04/28/bernie-sanders-to-run-for-president-as-democrat/

[VanillaRhapsody]

53. He can run in the Democratic Primary without becoming a Democrat...

baloney back atcha!

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/10/politics/bernie-sanders-democrat-or-independent/

[AZ Progressive]

35. America is in desperate need of a real leader, Bernie has the fire that would appeal to Americans

Americans desperation for leadership and authenticity IMO can allow someone to break through partisan and ideological lines.

[hifiguy]

41. That will be his most appealing quality to people who aren't already his fans.

The man is 100% bullshit free. He says what he honestly thinks and that comes through loud and clear every time he speaks.

[smokey nj]

49. Also, the fact that he's been taking unscreened calls from listeners on the Thom Hartmann show for

at least a decade proves that he knows how to talk to people. Bernie doesn't live inside the bubble.

[Agnosticsherbet]

42. I say let Bernie become a Democrat and run in the primary, so the votes can decide that.

[earthside]

44. Well, Hillary is a loser ...

... in November 2016.

She is old, tired, boring, center-conservative and has way, way, way too much political and financial baggage.

Bernie is old ... but interesting, new to most folks, progressive and plain spoken.

Democrats will have to get off the Clinton inevitability train in the next few months or we're going to be saddled with a flawed and compromised candidate that has too much money to be stopped.

Sanders or O'Malley, it doesn't matter, but someone has to be the giant killer -- then either they or others can emerge to bring fresh leadership to the party and the country.

[HereSince1628]

45. Well, that sorting out is part of what primaries do...let us allow it to work.

eh?

[still_one]

69. Wow, that sound like a good idea

[Tarheel_Dem]

46. The toughest sell. Not interested in another Nader style run for POTUS. Bernie appeal to the same

group who kept trying to launch Dennis Kucinich. I'll say this for Kooch, at least he was already a Democrat. Bernie should run under his own party banner, and forego the infrastructure built by "Democrats". I mean, if it's funding he's after, surely he could raise money without our mailing lists and organizing infrastructure, right?

[betterdemsonly]

97. Why shouldn't Nader voters be mainstreamed in the democratic party

Why do you hate them even when they are not playing spoiler? Do you love climate change, plutocracy, social security privatization, or do you love the system of bribery that finances it all. What is it you love about right wing bullshit?

I have long thought you to be one of the most disingenuous characters on the Democratic boards. For a year and half, you pretended to support OWS, yet you constantly guilt trip people into supporting wall street's dem candidates as lesser evils, and you do every thing you can to push people who would prefer a stronger stance against wallstreet out of our party. You also do everything you can to marginalize their preferred candidates like Liz Warren.

[Tarheel_Dem]

164. Well, I won't personally attack you as did me, but I'd like you to point out where I "pretended to

support OWS for a year and a half". That'd be great for starters. When John Lewis got booed by the Occupy assholes, I knew my discomfort with them was genuine. Occupy was libertarian crapshoot from its inception, and WTF are they now? Where are their candidates? Is it Bernie?

"Occupy Ron Paul": The Libertarian Roots of the Occupy Movement

Michael Tracey writes in American Conservative on the links between Ron Paul-ism and the Occupy Wall Street movement, past and prospective:


One might say Ron Paul people played a more integral role to the inception of Occupy than conventional Democrats or liberals, many of whom scorned the inscrutable demonstration in its first weeks. The journalist Arun Gupta, who co-founded the Occupied Wall Street Journal in New York City and later embarked on a tour of Occupy sites across America, told me he’d see clusters of Ron Paul supporters and various libertarians virtually everywhere he went. Such folks “tended to be better represented and integrated in red states,” Gupta said–Cheyenne, Boise, Tulsa, Little Rock, Louisville, Charleston, etc.–while in “blue states” they typically formed enclaves that were “tolerated” by the wider group.

A fair number of Occupy people in those days either had no opinion of or actively disliked Ron Paul, but the undercurrents of support were nonetheless noticeable, ranging from individuals who would wield official campaign paraphernalia to others who would concede private support only for narrow aspects of Ron Paul’s platform upon intense questioning. One would more reliably come across vocal Ron Paul supporters at Occupy events than vocal Obama supporters. It was not lost on the Zuccotti Park crowd, for instance, that Ron Paul personally expressed a measure of support for the movement earlier than most any other national U.S. politician–aside from Sen. Bernie Sanders or Rep. Dennis Kucinich....

Signage bearing the Paul-derived “End the Fed” slogan was common around Lower Manhattan during those frenzied weeks. Stories of Paul-Occupy fusion emerged from around the country: in Los Angeles, a Ron Paul activist successfully added an anti-Federal Reserve amendment to OccupyLA’s working manifesto; an ultimately ill-fated “Ron Paul Tent” was established for a time at OccupyPhilly...

http://reason.com/blog/2012/12/13/occupy-ron-paul-the-libertarian-roots-of



And as for Elizabeth Warren, who was an active Republican right up through Bush I, and I have zero respect for that. Deal with it.

[LondonReign2]

130. And many of us are not interested in another Bob Dole mimic running under the D flag

[Tarheel_Dem]

162. Bloomberg.com: Millennials Favor Hillary Clinton in Harvard Poll

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026587906

Now, define "many".

[LondonReign2]

163. *sniff**sniff* Smell that? Smells just like it did in 2007

[Tarheel_Dem]

166. *sniff**sniff* Smell that? 2016. Young & black folks, you know, the base? Loved Barack Obama.

He hadn't been hanging around Washington for decades like Bernie. You're not going to see that with Bernie Sanders, and I'll take bets on that. The enthusiasm for Barack Obama in 2007 hadn't been felt since JFK. Tell me what legislation, in his LOOOONG Washington career, Bernie has authored, gotten through the House & Senate, and onto the president's desk. Go on, I'll wait.

[Motown_Johnny]

52. Compared to who?

Jeb? Walker? Rubio? Cruz?

I think we can make the sale.

[Raine1967]

55. Here is where I stand:

My initial support was not for Barack Obama in 2007. I think a lot of people said the same thing about him.

I will support whoever wins the nomination because I am a proud member of my party.

I look forward to a healthy debate between everyone who declares that they are running for the nomination.

I do not believe that Senator Sanders and Secretary of State Clinton will be the only two people who are running for the nomination.

I also do not believe that SoS Clinton is an assumed candidate. I think that she is a very good candidate. I think that she is more than qualified and will be a wonderful nominee, but until she is a nominee, I look forward to seeing the choices we have as a party.

Bernie has just a good a chance as anyone. I am not counting anyone out, and that includes all the prospective people who might run.

Ok, I'll be honest… I am counting Lincoln Chafee out.

[n2doc]

56. Nobody thought a black man with the middle name Hussein could win either

Until he did.

[arcane1]

57. You're right, he's not a black guy with Saddam's middle name.

Regardless of whether he wins or loses, the TRUTH will get out there. I know of no other candidate more qualified to do THAT!

[bigwillq]

62. Really like your message text sentence.

"Regardless of whether he wins or loses, the TRUTH will get out there."

[woo me with science]

59. Nonsense corporate talking points. The nation is hungry for someone who will

stand up against the corporations for the people. Demonstrably so.

That is why Third Way politicians routinely LIE their way through campaigns pretending to be more liberal than they actually are. That is why they mouth empty promises about fighting for a public option or putting on comfortable walking shoes for unions or taking on criminal banks. They *always* pivot leftward in their rhetoric during campaigns in order to win votes, because they know that voters are significantly to the left of the predatory corporate agenda they actually stand for.

Every single poll on actual issues shows that voters are to the left of the corporate agenda we are constantly force-fed no matter which corporate politician wins. Greater than eighty percent of voters across party lines favor protecting Social Security, yet we are insulted by both Republican *and* Democratic corporate politicians who put cuts on the table and give odious, lying speeches tying SS to the deficit and lecturing us to eat our peas.

There will be attempts to marginalize Bernie, all right. We are seeing the talking points already, as echoed in your post. But those attempts to marginalize him will happen because corporatists fear that Bernie's message will be heard and spread by a public that is starving for the representation he would offer. Corporatists have poured untold dollars into narrowing the debate and propagandizing the public into believing that corporate "solutions" are the only possible solutions. Bernie threatens to shatter all that and speak the truth to the nation: that predatory corporate policies have been a CHOICE all along.

IMO the PTB are capable of doing anything to stop that message from catching fire.They'll try to silence him with boatloads of corporate money to drown out his message and smear him. And if that doesn't work, they'll find other ways.

Given an equal voice and equal access to the public, Bernie could be unstoppable. That's why the PTB will exert tremendous effort to dampen this effort from the start.

[Alittleliberal]

115. +1000000

WMWS thank you for everything you do sir.

[LondonReign2]

133. + approximately one trillion

"That is why Third Way politicians routinely LIE their way through campaigns pretending to be more liberal than they actually are. That is why they mouth empty promises about fighting for a public option or putting on comfortable walking shoes for unions or taking on criminal banks. They *always* pivot leftward in their rhetoric during campaigns in order to win votes, because they know that voters are significantly to the left of the predatory corporate agenda they actually stand for. "

[Marr]

137. +1, well said. /nt

[Throd]

61. He should run. Don't vote for him if you don't like his policies. n/t

[WillyT]

64. You Might Wanna Read This...

DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016119258

[MrMickeysMom]

81. That was a great read, WillyT… I recall those days...

Though I was only a sophomore in high school, so what did I truly know? I remember the confusion of it all and for the first time, doing more thinking, which over the following two years came out in varying rebellious way.

It's taken all the way to NOW to really put it together, my friend.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

65. Bernie bad

Hillary good

[still_one]

68. Would you say the same thing if Elizabeth Warren decided to run? What about Biden, O'Malley,

Webb, and what about Clinton?

What is the purpose of a primary?

[Hutzpa]

77. Warren is much more appealing than all those names with the exception of Veep Biden. nt

[still_one]

84. Actually what Bernie brings to the table will be to keep the candidates honest. There will be no

Ambiguity where Bernie stands on the issues, and that will pressure others to be more specific on the issues than they would have been if he wasn't part of the primary

[Hutzpa]

87. Without a doubt

he certainly will help to keep the conversation honest no doubt about that, especially on the economy, but the question still remains
how can we sell him to the American public?

[LeftOfWest]

96. By listening to him.

He speaks truth to power and that sells itself.

To me anyway.

Thanks for the thread.

[patricia92243]

98. Very,very good and important point. n/t

[Scootaloo]

76. I think that the slobbering myopia of the current Republicans is much harder sell

when you look at Bernie Sanders, do you see a lot of points on which the American people will prefer Marco Rubio? Rand Paul? I'm pretty sure you don't. so why argue that he can't beat them?

If you're trying to argue "yeahbut the average american..." The average American is as smart as you are, you are not specially enlightened. The average american knows what's good for them, and you shit-talking hteir cognitive abilities isn't going to help.

If your point is that sanders is an unfamiliar voice to most of the country... Well, first, that's actually a plus, Americans actually likes "outsiders." if they've been seeing a particular candidate every day since ohidunno 1992, they're likely to feel more contempt than curiosity. If it's an issue of messaging, well that's what the point of a campaign is - a campaign isn't simply a barnstorming fundraiser, though you might not guess from recent years. It's an effort to go out, get known, put your ideas up for a broad number of Americans.

Sanders does need to be sold to Americans. but so does any candidate whose campaign doesn't revolve entirely around being in the camera for two and a half decades. And the competition ANY Democratic nominee will face are human sebum plugs like ted Cruz.

[still_one]

91. Actually, the average American is pretty stupid. Wisconsin, Florida, Iowa, are just a few of the

sad examples. Don't get me wrong I think Bernie is going to shake things up big time, but lot of average Americans have been voting against their own interests for some time. When the most important issues to many of these average Americans is God, Guns, and Gays, you know their priorities are very messed up

[Scootaloo]

178. Your point is that sanders is bad because Republicans won't vote for him?

if you really want a candidate who Republicans will vote for, then you should probably find a different forum to post in; they're not going to vote for democrats.

[still_one]

209. Where did I say that? I am all for Bernie. Boy that is quite a leap, like huh, where did

That come from

I made a comment to your post which said that people will love Bernie's message so much that they will vote for him. My message was that voters are stupid? That wasn't directed against Bernie, and it sure wasn't directed for Clinton, it was a statement that Wisconsin voted for Scott Walker 3 separate times, in spite of the fact that he was anti-labor, and a draconian jerk. They also voted down Russ Feingold, another not too intelligent move in my view. I named a few other states in which their populace did some incredibly stupid things at the polls.

There was a book a few years back, "what's the matter with Kansas", which explored the question why people vote against their own self-interest."

My comment was simply based on that, and the incredible dumbing down of America

Bernie has the best message of any candidate, but that wasn't my point.

People are having their social security, Medicare, threatened, workers rights torn apart, the financial sector rigged against them, and yet they still vote in those folks that want to hurt them the most.

[MrMickeysMom]

78. Beg to disagree about "the appeal"

Everything Bernie Sanders has pointed out is undeniably true.

Every person running of office over the last 20 to 30 years polls what they think people will think is undeniably going to happen…. but what happens is too little at too much cost.

Our nation is running itself to insolvency and there has NEVER been a more disproportionate gap in income and such dearth of employment.

We need leadership, not someone who can run by the poll numbers safely. There IS no more "safely".

We have arrived and he is going to run.

[Marrah_G]

79. And that is how the PTB makes us afraid to support real progressives

A person can only win against the big money if people are willing to stand up and support them no matter how many people tell them "oh he can't win".

Realistic only gets us the status quo.

[99Forever]

80. Senator Sanders not only CAN win...

... he WILL win.

[L0oniX]

83. Fortunately you don't get to decide what is "realistic" for everyone else.

[PowerToThePeople]

89. Yawn. n/t

[Zorra]

90. Folks on the street are resonating with Bernie's message in a big way.

It will be up to the politically savvy to spread the word, because the MSM will try to crush him by not giving him any press.

I've been campaigning for him for a year already, letting people know who he is, and what his message is.

And they like it.

A lot.

[markpkessinger]

109. Exactly . . .

As for the charge that he's too far left, I think the reality is that many voters are, on an issue-by-issue basis, considerably further to the left than they realize. As an illustration of this, I would point to the polls about the healthcare legislation that were conducted prior to its passage. When individual provisions of the proposed plan were polled separately, people were overwhelmingly in favor of them. But when the question was framed as support for the President's proposal, support fell dramatically. From what I've seen, once people hear Bernie, they really like him on the issues. I'm certainly not willing to accept that he cannot win as a foregone conclusion at this point!

[newfie11]

92. I think anyone that listens to Bernie will be in for a great suprise

He make more sense and he comes across truthful, sincere, and very informed.
I've watched him weekly on Hartman for over a year.

[vankuria]

94. Please don't get me wrong

but I do wonder how Bernie Sanders religion will play in his campaign for president? We've never elected a Jewish man to the presidency and I know there is a first for everything. With all the talk now more than ever of a "Christian" nation, it could be an issue.

If you respond please be nice.

[betterdemsonly]

95. The voters can make that decision for themselves

no need for discussion

Thanks for your concern.

[mike_c]

99. he'll win if people vote for him...

...which I will do gleefully.

[hrmjustin]

103. Love him but I don't think he can win.

[Maedhros]

192. If everyone who says this votes for him, he'll win in a landslide. [n/t]

[hrmjustin]

193. Maybe.

[Maedhros]

194. I think progressives are collectively shooting ourselves in the foot.

It's as if we refuse to believe that our ideas have merit.

We get a candidate that, hands down, is the closest we can get to ideal, yet we still pull the lever for the flawed centrist because of electibility - which is a meme fed to us by the oligarchs for just this purpose.

[Smarmie Doofus]

105. Let's *see* if he can "sell".

If he doesn't sell, he doesn't sell. In the meantime actual issues get discussed.

*Meaningfully*.

I don't get why that prospect would bug self-described Democrats.

[smokey nj]

110. Because they're afraid he WILL sell is my guess.

[Mike Nelson]

111. Agree, but...

...happy to have Dem. debates - welcome Bernie!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

112. So you don't even want him in the primaries?

I am opposed to just letting Hillary sail through without a challenge.'

She needs to learn in a big way that not everyone is happy with wishy-washy Third Way corporate/military nonsense.

[brooklynite]

119. Point to the line where the OP said Bernie should get in the race...

A dose of reality isn't an attack.

[Hutzpa]

121. What an attempt to denigrate the conversation

I'm not sure who the 'she' is that you're referring to in this context.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

181. Yeah, right

You have no idea who I'm talking about. Pull the other one.

[Hutzpa]

184. Nope, was trying to make it much more convenient for you.

[Agschmid]

116. Well there is no way to know, unless he tries it.

[G_j]

118. It's up to us!

One can be part of the ongoing 'unelectable' story, or write a different story. Obama proved what enthusiasm can do. Bernie inspires people because he speaks for them. How do we know people aren't ready for a straight talker with a Brooklyn accent?

[Orsino]

122. Maybe he ought to run for president or something...

...so we'd know how much appeal he has.

[Hutzpa]

123. When it comes to the General Elections

image is everything. Majority of voters who aren't paying attention at present will look at image before making a decision. It's the fact of
life that campaigners have to deal with.

The candidate who can excite the populace at large wins.

[Orsino]

125. Yep.

I guess by Monday we'll know whether his campaign is a failure.

[Rex]

124. Well then you better work to make sure someone else is the primary winner!

Cause if be Bernie, I be voting for him!

[brooklynite]

131. And so will I

Unlike some people here, I'll finance and work for whomever is the Democratic nominee. But, I'll do it with my eye's open as to his/her likelihood of getting elected.

Can you say the same?

[Marr]

132. In 2004, I wouldn't have believed that a black man with a name that recalled our two biggest

national bogeymen could possibly win the next presidential election, either.

I understand what you're saying about television appeal and so on, but I think you could be underestimating just how fed up the voting public is with our now openly corrupt system. I think Danny DeVito could have a shot in this environment-- if he spoke plainly and honestly about what's actually breaking the economic backs of Americans.

What's more, to be perfectly honest, if Hillary Clinton is the alternative, I don't think she has any more television appeal that Bernie Sanders. She's slicker, absolutely, but her numbers always seem to slowly erode, the more people see of her. She isn't nearly as likeable as her supporters think.

[Hutzpa]

140. Yes, but that black man was able to excite people

had an oratory that cannot be matched, spoke eloquently and made his point succinctly to the American public that everyone felt
they had to rise up and participate, that's the difference. Obama had charisma which is important when it comes to selling a presidential
image to the general public.

Hillary has name recognition which goes a long way in raising money.

[zappaman]

142. Not to mention, we were coming off the WORST administration we had seen in some time.

So much easier for Obama then, than any Democrat now...

[Marr]

144. Oh, Obama had charisma to spare, no doubt.

He's a very talented politician-- and he benefited from being a relative unknown. He could speak about economic issues and leave people room to... well, "Hope©" he was being sincere. Hillary couldn't do that then and she can't do it now. Her record makes it look like simple pandering, and she isn't particularly likeable, either.

But I still think you're underestimating public sentiment about Wall Street and corporate America. I mean, Warren isn't exactly brimming with charm either, and big business despises her-- but she's still got a lot of support.

I think a politician who spoke simply and honestly on economic issues could rearrange a whole lot of political deck chairs, so to speak. Working class Republicans are just as upset about Wall Street and our rigged economy as are working class Democrats.

[treestar]

138. Be careful as you will be described as throwing a fit

and real scared of Bernie!!!

[seabeyond]

143. btw... this is not the moment to be "realistic". we are in a comfortable place with our candidates.

we can play right now, and dream, and work for and hope. then, a while down the road, we can readdress and see where we are, move from there, realistically.

[herding cats]

145. Let's let the Democratic primary process transpire as it should.

When that's over and we have a nominee, then we will know who was the most marketable of our choices. Either way, this is shaping up to be an election where the better good of the general population is going to be showcased more than in the recent past. Which is something our party, and our nation, desperately needs to be addressing.

[polichick]

151. He'll appeal to those who don't think the gov't should be owned by corporations...

We'll see how many voters want to put people back into the equation.

[Hiraeth]

154. Bless him?! Bless you. You are riding this fast train all by your lonesome. I prefer to watch the

democratic process unfold at its own natural pace and, may the best person win. I look forward to the debates and, the direction our national conversation will go.

[merrily]

155. I think the same about Hillary. It's up to primary voters and super delegates.

I thought Obama had the the best chance of winning the general not only the primary. However, was I dead certain the rest of America would elect an African American? No.

[bunnies]

157. He damn well may win NH.

After that? We'll see.

[Gothmog]

158. I love Bernie also

Bernie is a great man but I personally think that Hillary Clinton is a stronger candidate. In 2008, I support President Obama but would have been glad to support and vote for Hillary if she was the nominee. Bernie is a great man/Senator but I am supporting HRC for a host of reasons including electablity

[liberal_at_heart]

168. Populism has mass appeal. Centralist democrats have been using populism to get elected

for a long time. Problem is centralist governing hasn't helped us regain what we have lost over the last 30 years.

[Chan790]

175. I think we could run a wet paper sack with a Hitler mustache against the GOP rabble and win.

It's part of why I oppose Hillary so vehemently...we can do better than a milquetoast anti-progressive corporatist fake-Democrat like Hillary.

Do I think Bernie can win? Against any GOP comer....but so can Hillary or Bozo the Clown or a guy with magic-markered-on eyebrows and facial hair. It's a really low bar to beat the GOP in 2016...we should push for the best, most-progressive candidate we can get. Now is the time to go hard left because we don't need to appeal to a middle the GOP is running like hell away from, leaving it for us by default.

[Hutzpa]

179. That's a lot of confidence you are showing there Chan

I'm looking at Joe Bloggs who doesn't pay attention to the media 24 hours a day but come GE gets sound bites after sound bites.

I would love to have Bernie in fact my candidate is still holding on on the sideline, but if Bernie can drive Hillary to far left so be it.

Until things change which they can, Hillary is the de facto nominee based on polling and others entering.

[Exilednight]

186. I would love to hear Bernie ...

Soundbites. Unlike some candidates, he doesn't speak to things he does not believe in. Even if people disagree with you, they will vote for you if you are genuine. Just ask any Reagan Democrat.

[Hutzpa]

191. Agreed

just have to get the presentation right.

[Chan790]

187. It's hard not to be confident.

When I look at the electoral college map...I see a structural defeat for the GOP. The number of safe-Democratic and likely-Democratic states exceeds 270EC...there is no path to victory for the GOP that doesn't run through them having to win (a) state(s) that we safely-lead by 3-4% generically.

I know that doesn't seem like a lot...but it's hard to move a state more than 1-2%; it represents thousands of votes that must be flipped, voters that have to be turned-out or discouraged to stay home. Even this far out...90% of the map is projectable and the other 10% is mostly so. It's game-over from the outset for the GOP. Honestly, it was game over from outset for Democrats in 2004 like it was for Republicans in 2012. (It was uphill for Republicans in 2008...then the window closed for them.)

The media makes a lot of money making elections that are not really contests look like horse-races. Nobody wants to buy ad space during news coverage of runaway elections...so they make runaway elections look like they are closer than they are.

[Hutzpa]

190. Does that include the GOP gerrymandering?

imo gerrymandering is why I'm a little sceptical on Bernie because of popular votes and the reason why I think someone like
Warren will can away with this thing..

[HereSince1628]

182. OK, Thanks for your opinion...

I'm really not going to judge survivability until after Massachusetts

And I'll warn everyone, if the numbers are -survivable- after Massachusetts I'm gonna hang around wanting -someone- sort of like Bernie.

And whoever goes in April in 1st or a reasonable close 2nd position is going to have money shifting to their campaign

I can live with this.

[olddots]

183. as an old discheveled socialist male myself

I refuse to be what some people consider to be realistic and will remain a proud starry eyed idealist
for the rest of my dismal existence on this dying planet .

[Orsino]

197. And to whom will Sen. Sanders be a tough sell?

The ones who think candidates ought to be for sale, sure, but to the rest of us, his is a great message.

[Cleita]

204. Perhaps the banks and MIC whom he pretty much scorns. eom

[TBF]

201. Thank you oh practical, realistic one ...

[Cleita]

202. Bernie has not tried to sell himself yet. He is popular with his Vermonters and

was content with that until now. But now he's got to turn into a rock star and frankly I think he will pull it off.

[Lil Missy]

203. No, he can't win, but he can make a positive contribution to the primary process. n/t

[HassleCat]

205. Primary

You are probably right. The media will try to portray him as a loony lefty, etc. But that's why we have primaries, ot give the candidates a chance to appeal to the voters and see if they'll be accepted.

[LWolf]

208. I think he appeals to

a very broad spectrum of working people. I think we'll never see the change we wish to see if we don't have the courage to work for it, and to vote for those who are willing to pull their weight doing that job.

I think he can do it, if we'll get behind him. I'm willing to work for the chance to find out.

What I'm not sure you understand is that HRC is a tough sell for many fellow Democrats, let alone the rest of the nation.

[fadedrose]

212. Richard Nixon is my reply . . n t