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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFury rises at Disney over use of foreign workers
At the end of October, IT employees at Walt Disney Parks and Resorts were called, one-by-one, into conference rooms to receive notice of their layoffs. Multiple conference rooms had been set aside for this purpose, and in each room an executive read from a script informing the worker that their last day would be Jan. 30, 2015.
Some workers left the rooms crying; others appeared shocked. This went on all day. As each employee received a call to go to a conference room, others in the office looked up sometimes with pained expressions. One IT worker recalls a co-worker mouthing "no" as he walked by on the way to a conference room.
What follows is a story of competing narratives about the restructuring of Disney's global IT operations of its parks and resorts division. But the focus is on the role of H-1B workers. Use of visa workers in a layoff is a public policy issue, particularly for Disney.
Disney CEO Bob Iger is one of eight co-chairs of the Partnership for a New American Economy, a leading group advocating for an increase in the H-1B visa cap. Last Friday, this partnership was a sponsor of an H-1B briefing at the U.S. Capitol for congressional staffers. The briefing was closed to the press.
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http://www.computerworld.com/article/2915904/it-outsourcing/fury-rises-at-disney-over-use-of-foreign-workers.html
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Zorra
(27,670 posts)don't care about anything but money and we are going to have to get them, and their anti-American worker policies, under control, and make it so the globalists have no power and influence in OUR government or in OUR country ever again.
Go Bernie.
TheBlackAdder
(28,183 posts)
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Anything else allows them to play us one against the other.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Most people want to live where their friends and family live, and don't want to have to move across country, or across the world in the HOPES of finding work, or simply to get a job that lasts until the next cheaper labour pool is tapped to replace them.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Displacement of workers is the natural result of race to the bottom "free trade".
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Talk about addicts, sheez. Some people really are hooked on being abused.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)And those of us who used to work in IT found that we're eminently replaceable.
Faux pas
(14,667 posts)a form of treason? Crazy.
antigop
(12,778 posts)antigop
(12,778 posts)
Sanity Claws
(21,846 posts)I thought that HB-1 visas were granted only if domestic workers could not fit the need. That is clearly not the case here. The American workers were doing the job and were laid off only to allow the employer to fill the same positions with cheaper foreign labor. Right?
What am I missing?
treestar
(82,383 posts)There is always this propaganda thing going on that assumes they can hire people for less as H-1Bs. When in fact they have to prove to the government they are paying the prevailing wage to the H-1B and offering that worker all of the same benefits and equal working conditions.
When you present these facts to the propagandists and quote the statute and show them the Labor Department requirements for getting an H-1B, they then resort to asserting that the system is corrupt and the Labor Department hands them out without regard to the rules.
This law is set up to make it preferable to hire the American, rather than going through the paperwork and expense of an H-1B, which will be denied when there are layoffs going on for the same job position.
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)Excuse me it's the Outsource Contractor that is Hiring H1B recipients to use in place of the people who had been doing the job for years.
On edit Disney is outsourcing their IT to HCL Tech. Apparently they can't find qualified people. Nor do they want the qualified people to get Green Cards either.
treestar
(82,383 posts)The government does not hand out H-1Bs on request, and certainly would not do so for a company in the midst of layoffs. For some reason the H-1Bs has because the subject of a lying propaganda campaign. It is simply false that they could openly lay off people and hire H-1Bs for their jobs. They cannot pay H-1Bs less. They cannot use them to replace laid off employees.
It's not even in a company's interests to do that. Why waste money trying to get an H-1B when you have to pay them as much as the worker you are allegedly laying off?
MH1
(17,600 posts)saying there was no opening.
2 months later there magically became an opening and guess who it was filled by? An H1B.
I don't have the time or expertise to understand how this happens but I believe it because I am in the midst of it.
If you walk into a factory and 98% of the workers are white males, wouldn't you suspect there was some discrimination going on, even if the company was supposedly following the letter of the law?
Tell me why you can walk into a large IT department of many companies and find that more than half the programmers are from India. I don't mean Indian descent, I mean recently arrived from India, and generally with H1B visas.
Then at other companies, it is nothing like that. Maybe one or two short-time temps from India, but the perms are American. Gee, those companies seem to be finding American workers for their programming jobs, I wonder why the aforementioned companies could not?
Something is rotten in the system, even if you are unable to smell it.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And a lot of money. There is no motive for replacing US workers with them.
They have to pay the prevailing wage. There is no way you can deny that. People can repeat it over and over, but they have to pay as much as they would an American. And the government may audit them. I don't see any proof this system is any worse than any other government system when it comes to enforcement of the law.
In fact:
http://www.hooyou.com/h-1b/dependent/h1-b_depend_emplr.htm
http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/pwscreens.cfm
Audits:
http://www.bakermckenzie.com/RRManagingUnannouncedComplianceAuditsOct09/
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... When firms use "body shops" to get their workers from and don't directly hire these workers but use their "services", these body shops have a "prevailing wage" of their workers that are a lot lower than domestic workers have been paid for the same job if they ONLY hire H-1B workers at these body shops. The "prevailing wage" of those body shops is whatever they decide to pay these H-1B visa workers who have no real negotiating power the way these laws are set up.
So, we should support this because it helps other workers get jobs? Hell, even many workers coming here on H-1B visas hate this program and the abuse they've suffered from it too. Watch this report from a local bay area station that talks to an Indian worker about his experiences, including crap like "guesthouses" that these workers are forced to live in, etc.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/Silicon-Valleys-Body-Shop-Secret-280567322.html
H-2B workers, another similar guest worker program for non-tech workers is even more abused. Read how they were abused when brought over to clean up after Katrina.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/198665/these-workers-came-overseas-help-rebuild-after-hurricane-katrina-and-were-treated-prison
treestar
(82,383 posts)But the false claims get repeated over and over.
People try to get around the tax law too. Many laws and regulations. But trying to pay an H-1B less than prevailing wage can get employers into big trouble. In fact if they were really doing this then people getting laid off should call the Dept. of Labor.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)I've seen them happening before. There might be some minor revisions, but then they find newer loopholes that have been left in the laws that they can exploit.
There really wouldn't be a need to expand this program and not hire American workers if the program were true to its original intentions and didn't allow through the way its rules are written for workers to be obtained more cheaply than hiring domestic workers for the same job if they didn't have H-1B worker options available. That's why the original quotas were smaller. If the original intent were followed, then companies would have to pay more for these kind of workers, because they filled needs that domestic workers truly couldn't, and having workers to do this work would provide them with the added business they need, even if it cost more to hire them. If it were kept that way, there really wouldn't be that big a need for such workers except in rare instances.
You can study the history and see that historically, H-1B workers make a lot less collectively than similarly qualified domestic workers, even if there is language in the law that seeks to make this not the case, that is worked around constantly.
R.A. Ganoush
(97 posts)And think you should try and understand how it really works.
I'm in the process of managing the H1-B Visa application for a client of mine. Not only do they have to offer a "prevailing wage", but that wage has to be in line with state and federal wage ranges for those positions. In addition, there are only 60,000 Visa's being issued this year... no matter what your company name is. They received over 237,000 applications this year, so 1 in 4 will get rejected. There is no favoritism or greasing the wheels in the Visa lottery. On top of it, the attorney cost over $5,000 between application fees and attorney costs. The lawyer doesn't reimburse if the sponsored person isn't chosen. And that's just for one applicant.
I'm of the opinion that in order to argue properly against the process, its an advantage to understand what's involved in it.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)if those pathways weren't discouraged like they are today when at times it takes some people as much as 10 years to get citizenship, even if they are married to American citizens or have family that are already naturalized citizens here.
I would argue that the government has been put in a position to try and PUSH those wanting to live and work here in to just looking at H-1B programs to do so, as that is what companies want rather than these other solutions that I would argue many of the people coming over here would prefer in most instances. And if they don't, I would argue that isn't good for our economy and we should look for others in these countries instead who truly want to move here and invest their lives here rather than their country of origin.
I would rather someone come over here and make the investment of being a citizen here and participate as such in:
1) being able to vote and participate in our society and governmental processes to help make it work for all of us.
2) have their families live here instead of back in their country that they ship money to, as this puts more money that they earn back in to our economy, which fuels economic growth here rather than in their own native country where their family still lives.
3) they are more inclined to stay here whereas when a H-1B Visa expires they often just move back to their country, and that country gains the investment of intellectual capital that a job produces rather than our country if they were to stay here and move on to another company here needing such expertise. That is why the world capitol of high tech has effectively moved from Silicon Valley to Bangalore, India.
Our country has welcomed IMMIGRANTS to come here and build our country which was the dream of our forefathers, not TEMPORARY INDENTURED SERVANTS that don't fulfill that dream.
If it is so damned difficult and hard to do, WHY don't you help them hire an American citizen instead, or if you are working for the person looking to be an H-1B employee, help them get a green card or citizenship instead. Those that want to come here and IMMIGRATE here, would love you for that.
I've seen how this process has worked in the trenches myself over the years, and have seen managers literally LAUGH at how they got cheap labor through a body shop instead of hiring an American citizen for a job. The rules may be tweaked over the years, but the way they work the process, there are always loopholes for the insiders that are knowledgeable how to break them to allow for cheap labor. Just look at statistical graphs over the years that compares the average salaries for H-1B workers versus domestic workers for the same positions, and it will show you a very visible difference in how much lower H-1B workers EFFECTIVELY work for employers versus American workers.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)My industry was completely decimated by H1B workers from Eastern Europe. There are people on this thread who are speaking from real world experience. Where does your spiel come from?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Look it up. That's the law on the subject, so your claims are the ones patently false.
maybe they believe it, but it's not true. The government does not just hand out H-1Bs. And they make them prove the conditions are the same.
So if people are disobeying the law, call the Labor Department.
How would a law pass if it did not protect American workers? What President would sign it?
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Large companies have an army of lawyers to find every loophole. In the case of my industry, it was hiring the work out to several private contractors split on the same project so each one could max out. They built dorms and housed the workers four to a room in bunk beds. They would have them work for a certain period of time and then send them back home to be replaced so the visa didn't run out. The workers were happy to make 1/10th of what American workers were making because it was worth so much in their country. I, and obviously others on this thread, KNOW what we are talking about. If you have no real world experience with the situtation, perhaps you should read and listen more.
Telcontar
(660 posts)The law is whatever the corporate lawyers say it is. Why are you being obtuse?
n2doc
(47,953 posts)Plenty of companies do illegal things. Very few actually get slapped with any sort of sanction. The DOJ is a joke.
There is a reason companies are doing this. It has nothing to do with not being able to find workers and everything to do with cuttining costs, and they admit it.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It will be interesting to see what those IT folks left behind in Disney's systems.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,700 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)If they are having layoffs, they cannot qualify H-1Bs.
They have to file an application with the USCIS. That will be denied if they are laying people off.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)The IT business these days is a lot more of a contractor job industry than it used to be, and likely for this very reason.
And many large firms are changing the way they have things like office space for permanent employees to perhaps get them more frustrated and wanting to move on from the company if they don't like the "newer" conditions so that they can later replace them with contractors or H-1B workers.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)workers and let the public know about it. And those of us who are pro-union need to boycott Disney parks and products - NOW.
dembotoz
(16,799 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)I suspect Sen. Sanders will bring this up.
donnasgirl
(656 posts)BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)I have yet to disagree with Senator Sanders on an issue.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)Seeing a video like this has me one more step towards putting in some of my likely small amounts of free time in the future to campaign for him!
Sanders rocks so much!
But Disney is very pro-child...labor!
WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)Firstly, it does not state that the IT workers were replaced by Disney's own H-1B workers. What it states is that Disney is now using an IT vendor that employs IT workers from India.
Secondly, the H-1B visa is not necessarily the culprit. Those of us who work in this field know well that the most likely culprit is the L-1B 'specialized knowledge' intracompany transfer visa.
Instead of demonizing the H-1B program - which helps more than the IT industry, by the way - let's address the real 'evil' - the L-1B.
First, the L-1B is for intracompany transferees. In simple terms (as this is a complex visa), a likely scenario is that a Company X in India also owns Company Y in the U.S. (a scheme used by major IT outsourcers such as Tata, Wipro, etc.). As a result, due to the joint ownership and control of both entities, it is possible to assign workers to the U.S. entity (as long as they have worked with the foreign entity for at least a full year in the preceding three years) under the L-1B 'specialized knowledge' category.
Unlike the H-1B, the L-1B provides several benefits: there is no Congress-mandated quota (the H-1B has a set 65,000 quota per fiscal year); there are no educational requirements (H-1B requires at least a bachelor's or foreign equivalent or above); there are no prevailing wage requirements (the H-1B requires the foreign national be paid at or above the prevailing wage); there are no labor protection attestations (the H-1B requires the filing of a Labor Condition Application - LCA - with the DOL with various attestations, including no benching, no layoffs, etc.); and it also cannot lead to a possible green card sponsorship (something the H-1B allows - in fact, most people in H-1B status eventually become permanent residents - a/k/a green card holders - often waiting several years to get to that point); the filing fees are far lower (the H-1B filing fees for a larger company - not a willful violator - are $2,325 and don't include legal fees); there's no requirement to pay in U.S. dollars (with the H-1B, compensation must be in U.S. dollars and must be at or above the prevailing wage); lastly, there are no requirements that the legal and filing fee costs be paid by the employer (the H-1B requires all the costs - including legal and filing fees - to be paid by the Petitioner/employer and it also prohibits reimbursements and pay back agreements).
The maximum duration of an L-1B is 5 years and it cannot be extended. The L-1B - not the H-1B - is how most of the IT outsourcer companies actually get workers in the U.S.
And that's where we should focus our attention. That's where abuse and fraud are rampant. The L-1B provides no benefit to the U.S. at all. The H-1B does because, as explained above, most H-1B holders eventually become permanent residents and establish lives and careers in the U.S., thus contributing to the economy. It's also important to remember that many large companies were partly or solely founded by H-1B visa holders.
H-1B visas are necessary to many industries - including architecture, design, international management, etc. In my own particular industry - hospitality/gaming - which depends on foreign visitors, it is nearly impossible to find U.S. workers who are fluent in certain languages and/or have certain knowledge in areas such as PRC, HK or Macau accounting practices, not to mention international monetary regulations and gaming.
The H-1B is not perfect by any means, but it is far more rigorous than the L-1B. Professionally speaking, the L-1B is by far the most commonly used visa by IT vendors.
MH1
(17,600 posts)All I know is that I see people from other countries who lie on their resumes getting good IT opportunities, while promising college graduates are left to wonder why their IT degrees are worthless.
eggplant
(3,911 posts)Although H-1B holders can expect "prevailing wages", at least in the software industry the definition of this is rather, um, flexible. And there is no assurance of any kind of career advancement -- raises, promotions, anything beyond the original offer -- AND the visa isn't transferable** between US employers. Don't like your new asshole boss? Shut up and take it, or return from whence you came.
Now being fair, I've worked in places that primarily used H-1B people, treated them very well and helped move them towards their green cards. It was a win-win. But *most* of the places I've worked treat their H-1B people like modern day slaves.
(**Technically, it is possible to transfer an H-1B, but I've *never* seen this happen in practice.)
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Or something....
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)How does this business decision by Disney change that?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)ie there are enough US IT workers to fulfill Disneys needs, they just decided to being in foreigners.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 29, 2015, 06:50 PM - Edit history (1)
these are IT people getting fired while temporary foreign visa workers (contractors) take their jobs.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)and they just took jobs from americans and gave them to who? Such hypocritical BS these goddamn corporations spread. This is why people are getting more and more upset with this fascist corptocracy.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)... that we are now occupying some of the same turf as the far right.
(this picture was used to illustrate a point in Freeperland: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3173279/posts
n2doc
(47,953 posts)You fall in the mud and start slinging, right?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)You know I'm right, by the way.
People here are now cheering Ross Perot for his stance on NAFTA and tossing Gore and Clinton under the bus for supporting it. Who else did that? Gee.....
People here (present company included) have swallowed the koolaid about immigrants taking our jobs, and who else does that?
It isn't slinging mud when I'm telling the absolute truth.
And I don't care that you don't like hearing it.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)n2doc
(47,953 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)
Elwood P Dowd
(11,443 posts)and driving down wages back when I started work as a young man.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)as destroying American jobs.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)This is about foreign workers who work for a stint and then are sent back. Sometimes they are set up in "dorms" so their shit pay can cover their expenses. Then they are sent back and new workers are shipped in. This is about trying to go around prevailing wages. You have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about.