An amazing news story of undocumented workers getting massive undeserved tax refunds from the IRS?

[BadGimp]

The story seems quite legit. It seems they do it by using an IRS issued ITIN #. An ITIN is for people who have to file a tax return but lack a SS#. With a ITIN, they file a return and claim a bunch of kids as deductions which results in refunds that can be in the thousands. The story suggests this is a fraud that rakes in billions for the filers.

This in kinda disturbing if it's true.

The link is legit from a local news station in southern Indiana.

My friend who sent it to me is a rightie but ...

http://www.wthr.com/video?clipId=7054149&autostart=true

Link on an ITIN: http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96287,00.html

Who thinks this is a widespread issue?

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[madokie]

1. I don't believe a fucking word of it

Its bullshit to enrage the righties and nothing more

[stevenleser]

2. Undocumented workers file tax returns and always have. They are required to by law.

Their undocumented status does not shield them from an obligation to file.

Once you understand that, the question becomes, when they file, are they claiming deductions they should not be claiming.

If the answer is 'Yes', then the questions that follow are, in what numbers is this happening, and is it happening intentionally.

We know that in the population of citizenry, quite a large amount of people push the envelope on their taxes. Another question then is, is there a significant difference in the amount of pushing the envelope in taxes between citizens/legal residents and undocumented immigrants.

There are a lot of questions there. Are they covered in this video?

[DURHAM D]

11. My guess is that the IRS sees this as a trade off.

It is probably not by accident that they are getting their withholding back. However, if I understand correctly these same workers are helping fund medicare and social security. And employers are matching the employee SS funds (+2%) and medicare contribution and depositing with the IRS. I assume that if they are working here undocumented they will never be able to claim benefits for medicare or SS. If, however, there is a way for them to claim benefits later than this is problem.

My right wing brother-in-law was doing an illegal immigrant diatribe one day and he mistakenly asked me "What am I supposed to think when I drive by a bunch of landscapers and they are all Mexican?" I told him to turn his car around and go back and thank them because their work is funding his SS and Medicare benefits. Everyone in the room but him burst out laughing. He acted like a total ass so my sister sent him to the basement.

JFTR - I could be wrong on all of this.

The video breaks-up part way through so don't know if this is covered.

[Enrique]

14. the questions about perspective are what's missing

even if their conclusion of $5 billion, which they present very dramatically, is correct, I wonder how many of their viewers know what percentage that is of total tax evasion?

Just the first report I came across puts it at over $300 billion annually:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/26/business/global/26iht-tax26.html

[marybourg]

3. Did they pay tax? Do they have kids?

Just getting a refund is not a crime, even for illegals, without fraud, and I don't click on unknown sites.

[DURHAM D]

13. The dependents they are claiming in this story all

live in Mexico. Also they are claiming nephews and nieces, not necessarily their own children.

[Luminous Animal]

19. You know, you have to supply a social security number for each dependent claimed.

[DURHAM D]

21. Really?

Even if undocumented? That is interesting.

See my post above. I think this is a trade off by the IRS in order to get the SS & Medicare funds.

Edit: Just did some checking. The SS # probably only becomes a factor if claiming a tax credit for that dependent. IOWs - does not apply for these undocumented workers because they can not use the tax credit for their non-citizen dependents.

[Luminous Animal]

26. No dependency expemption is allowed without the SSN...

Question: My daughter was born at the end of the year. We are still waiting for a social security number. Can I send in my return and later supply the social security number for her?

Answer: If you file your return claiming your daughter as a dependent and do not provide her social security number on the return, the dependency exemption will be disallowed.

http://www.irs.gov/faqs/faq/0,,id=199714,00.html

[marybourg]

29. The rules are complicated, but neither

of those conditions, even if true, automatically exclude the claim of dependency. More facts must be known. In addition, how would this different from any other taxpayer committing tax fraud? White republicans do this frequently.

[DURHAM D]

30. I did not suggest that this is in any way "committing tax fraud"

In fact, I don't believe it is. From what we/I know it is totally legal.

Please re-read my posts.

[marybourg]

31. I think my response to the post I

responded to was entirely appropriate. I'm not required to read all posts written by the poster I respond to and to weigh them in their entirety and I did not do so.

[BadGimp]

4. the links are legit

The video source is a news station in Indiana http://www.wthr.com/

an NBC affiliate

the IRS link is an IRS LINK

[EFerrari]

8. The IRS link has nothing to do with this story

which is probably a steaming pile and, too bad, too, because low wage workers spend every dime of their refunds and this kind of spending would be a stimulus to our screwed up economy.

[BadGimp]

23. why would you say that?

The ITIN # is how this fraud is allegedly accomplished.

The link is to the IRS page about what is an ITIN and related issues and answers.

So the link has everything to do with the story.

If you don't want to believe it, and a lot of DUers seem to be falling into that category, then don;t believe, but please don't make such an incorrect statement.

I am not a troll. I'm about as Left as I can get. I posted the main story because is seems credible, and important. I am not concerned who the "group" that are supposedly committing the fraud is, it's fraud and we are ALL paying for it if indeed this is happening.

But given that the person responsible for the report to the TV station will not come forward and id themselves, I am suspicious. And that's why I am airing this on DU.

[EFerrari]

28. Nope. The page describing the program is not evidence of abuse of the program.

And I don't "believe" news stories. I check them out and form a fact based opinion.

That this story is boiler-plate right wing race baiting is more or less obvious. Why that needs to be "aired out" at DU is not.

[ZombieHorde]

5. I have not heard about this, but I hope it is true.

Many illegal immigrants could really use some financial support, and I have no problems with them receiving that support.

[upaloopa]

6. First of all show me a right winger that doesn't cheat on their income tax.

I doubt this story because it singles out undocumented workers, it talks about a ITIN, and it "rakes in billions." All dog whistle phrases for right wingers.

On edit, you can't get a refund unless you paid in first. I doubt undocumented workers had billions withheld from their pay checks because the are usually employed in low wage jobs.

If they get the earned income tax credit they have as much right to it as any taxpayer who qualifies and that sure as hell isn't in the "billions.""

[Enrique]

7. what is disturbing to me is that investigative reporter

as well as the two anchors at the beginning. I'm sorry, I can't agree with you that the story seems legit. Maybe if it is confirmed in some report without the bug eyes and the inflammatory language, I'll take it seriously.

[EFerrari]

9. The story is all over the far right sites. n/t

[Enrique]

17. are they talking about how Obama wants to increase IRS compliance funding?

and how the GOP wants to decrease it?

No? I'm shocked!

[rurallib]

10. I remember hearing stories like this when I was a kid in the 50s

and of course the welfare queens in Chicago, thanks to Saint Ronnie.
But even if there is any truth to this I would still be more concerned about the Rmoneys of the world paying a lower rate than most of us.

Going to rant a bit:
Most "cheating the government" scandals are not done by the poor, the ignorant nor those who are trying like hell to not get caught because they are undocumented.
From what I have seen it is usually those who have degrees and businesses that find a loophole to exploit. Doctors usually are the ones exploiting medicare, the rich and their tax lawyers are usually the ones avoiding taxes. Wealthy farmers get huge payments from the government, including our own Chuck Grassley.

If it is true, the purpose is to redirect anger from the stuff I mentioned above to the poor and to once more take the focus off those who are really fucking us daily and minute by minute. What did GE pay in taxes last year? a negative $3.5 billion?

[Better Believe It]

12. Another attempt by the media to deflect criticism away from the ruling rich.

And direct anger away from the billionaires and target working class people who are immigrants!

Not only are "they" taking "our" jobs, they are also stealing billions of dollars with bogus tax refunds!

Meanwhile the rich continue their legal tax evasion.

[spanone]

15. not anymore disturbing than the 'good upstanding rich' using loopholes

[katsy]

16. IMO, this is no more or less

a widespread issue than tax fraud in general. Enforce the laws and audit suspected fraud across the board.

Why are wingers peeing themselves over this? Fraud happens and is an unbiased crime. Audit the suspects and stop the whinning.

[jehop61]

18. Just a few thoughts

Story was legitimately on tv. Used anonymous witnesses. Never picked up by any other msn station. AND was shown in Indianapolis, bastion of right wing propaganda. I ask you, if this was such a serious problem, why haven't the national press picked it up? It must have been sweeps week and the station just knew this story would rile up the folks leading up to it's primary. Bull Ticky!

[BadGimp]

24. good points jehop61

this is the kind of dialogue I was hoping for

[exboyfil]

20. To get my child tax credit I have to put the S.S. down

for both of my children. I always wondered how well the child tax credit was enforced - it is a significant reduction in my federal taxes. It means even more for those who are getting a credit back.

[DURHAM D]

22. The story does not talk about child tax credits -

- just dependants and return of withholding.

Edit: Just read the IRS fact sheet. The children must be citizens of US if a credit is claimed. So that issue is not in the mix in this story.

[Luminous Animal]

27. You have to supply a SSN for a dependency exemption. Not just for the tax credit.

Question: My daughter was born at the end of the year. We are still waiting for a social security number. Can I send in my return and later supply the social security number for her?

Answer: If you file your return claiming your daughter as a dependent and do not provide her social security number on the return, the dependency exemption will be disallowed.

http://www.irs.gov/faqs/faq/0,,id=199714,00.html

One year, I entered my daughter's SSN incorrectly and they kicked it back for "invalid SSN" with a bill for taxes owed. It was an easy mistake to clear up.

[Luminous Animal]

25. ITIN holders are not eligible for Earned Income Tax Credit even if their kids have

valid SSNs.

In order to claim a child as a deduction, you must list that child's SSN.

http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=120580,00.html

"• If a primary taxpayer, spouse, or both have ITINs, they are ineligible to receive the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), even if their dependents have valid SSNs. If the taxpayer and spouse (if filing jointly) have valid SSNs, only dependents with valid SSNs – not ITINs – qualify to receive EITC."