It ain't just DU

[cali]

As I was reminded yesterday by a Hillary supporter, DU is not the real world, and that's true. But take a quick trip through social media and you'll find a lot of enthusiasm for bernie, a lot of people saying they've donated and will continue to donate. People saying they've committed to volunteer.

I've been told that few people in that big bad real world even know who Bernie is, and yet he raised more in his first post-announcement 24 hour period than did Cruz, Paul or Rubio.

On reddit Bernie is the most popular political group. People are expressing their support and excitement on HuffPost, Facebook and other sites. Many of them talk about how this is their first time donating.

It's not too shabby a start for the old curmudgeon with bad hair from a tiny, weird state.

[Wilms]

1. I was right there with ya, Cali,...

...until you made that disparaging comment.

Why are you calling Vermont weird????

[cali]

2. proudly weird

[donnasgirl]

140. Cali

He is real not weird, in other words he is not phony.

[oberliner]

8. Maybe weird in the sense that the state is practically all-white

That is a little bizarre. And not at all representative of the rest of the USA.

[cali]

23. yes, yes, vermont is just a nasty segregated hateful place full of bigots

and don't even begin to tell me that isn't what you're suggesting. In any case, Vermont is rural. It's frickin' cold. Not too many people move here of any color, but if you knew anything, you'd know that Vermont Vermont has actively supported refugees- people of color moving here. And it's changing:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2011-02-10-vermont-census_N.htm

[oberliner]

26. That is definitely not true

Why would you write something like that?

I think it is the farthest thing from a "hateful place full of bigots".

It is one of the most liberal, progressive places in the US.

It is just not reflective of the country in terms of diversity as over 95 percent of the population is white.

[roguevalley]

85. I had family there in the beginning of settlement there. :D Love it. Good training for Alaska. :D

[cheapdate]

170. For what it's worth, I got your point,

which was more of a simple observation, really.

Winning the White House isn't so much about carrying blue states (California, New York, Connecticut, etc.), the candidate for president has to win the battleground states - Ohio, Florida, North Carolina, Virgina, etc.

[A Simple Game]

64. Vermont was active in the underground railroad but mostly just as a "pass through" to Canada.

The mountains probably didn't appeal to people from the flat plantation lands of the south.

[KingCharlemagne]

70. Vermont also kicked some serious ass during the Civil War, sending roughly 10% of its population

at the time to serve in various units. Vermonters made a major contribution at Gettysburg on the third day:

They {Vermonters} also played a crucial role at the Battle of Gettysburg, where, under General George J. Stannard, the 2nd Vermont Brigade broke Pickett's charge by stepping out of a protected area and firing at the flank of the attackers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_in_the_American_Civil_War

[cyberswede]

24. I don't think any single state is representative of the rest of the U.S. nt

[oberliner]

27. Good point

I don't think any state is representative of the rest of the US either.

I do think states with more diversity than Vermont, however, are more representative of the population as a whole.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

43. Are you suggesting that people of colour are less liberal and less progressive than whites?

Since you keep bringing up the fact that Vermont is almost all white, and 'more progressive' than the rest of the country?

If not, why do you keep raising those specific demographics in your quest to make sure everyone knows 'Vermont is not representative of the country'?

[oberliner]

56. No

Someone else said that Vermont was weird. I am not sure what they meant. I am saying it is "weird" in the sense of it being unique. It is a state that is not at all diverse but is very progressive. I am not on a quest to make sure everyone knows Vermont is not representative of the country. Every state is "weird" in its own way. I love Bernie Sanders and will vote for him enthusiastically if he gets the nomination (but I don't think he will).

[smokey nj]

72. Of course not. And don't read anything into the Ron Paul comparison either.

Clearly it's all in our heads.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

77. Actually, I accept his explanation.

While I frequently am in disagreement with oberliner, I find he's willing to explain his line of thinking when asked.

[Buzz Clik]

113. That's a pretty god awful logical mishmosh.

a. Vermont is mostly white. (true)
b. Vermont is really progressive/liberal (true)
c. Therefore, non-white people are less progress than white people ( )

[roguevalley]

86. 2010 Alaska:

White: 66.7% (Non-Hispanic Whites: 64.1%)
Black 3.6%
Asian 5.4% ( Among, 0.3% Chinese, 0.2% Laotian, 0.2% Japanese, 0.1% Indian, 0.1% Vietnamese, 0.1% Thai)
American Indian or Alaskan Native 14.8%
Pacific Islander: 1.0% (0.7% Samoan, 0.1% Hawaiian, 0.1% Tongan)
Two or more races: 7.3%
Other races: 1.7


If you go strictly by numbers we are probably 'more racist' than Vermont.

[roguevalley]

87. The Anchorage School District does contend with 178 languages. Does that mitigate. ;)

[Eleanors38]

128. Yes, Vermont is hugely prohibitionist regarding guns.

[pablo_marmol]

174. It's hilarious indeed!

With all of the love for Vermont and Oregon - the "true blue" progressive states - so few know that both states strongly support gun rights. But does this fact give "progressive" DU'ers cause for any reflection? Of course not. Vermont is literally the "gun craziest" state in the nation, since it allowed both concealed and open carry as far back as 1986:

http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php

Vermont received an 'F' from the Brady Bunch, Oregon received 'D+'.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/sites/default/files/SCGLM-Final10-spreads-points.pdf

Yup. Vermont and Oregon are genuinely progressive states:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/07/04/881431/-Why-liberals-should-love-the-Second-Amendment

Oh, the cognitive dissonance!

[Eleanors38]

182. Well, all those gun-toting liberals gotta live somewhere.

[pablo_marmol]

184. And there would be a lot more if it weren't for the climate.

I get a chuckle out of the very plausible scenario where a "true liberal" couple pulls up stakes and moves to Vermont, only to panic when they find that all of the folks in their immediate area (and beyond) are "gun humpers".

[Eleanors38]

187. One has to question how serious the controllers are about their "cause"....

If I were that serious about something, I would investigate where I am going, and not rely on self-imposed stereotypes of lifestyle and atmosphere. But I don't think the cause is what it purports to be. The real concern is maintaining a virulent culture war-by-proxy, officially approved by some so-called progressives, wherein one can righteously act like then blow holes we hear on radio shout shows.

[pablo_marmol]

189. "One has to question how serious......."

This is a key point.

Every time you turn around you smack your forehead into evidence that The Controllers are all mouth and no game. Further, they have absolutely no clue as to what their culture war is costing the Democratic Party - and don't want to know.

[sabrina 1]

103. A little advice for supporters of other cadidates, playing the race card didn't work too well

in 2008. It's way better to talk about where a candidate is on the issues, which is easy for Bernie Supporters to do. I've now seen this tactic used twice on DU and it has not been well received.

So let me give you an opportunity to promote your candidate.

Where does Hillary stand on the TPP?

Bernie has come out strongly against it.


Looking forward to a positive campaign on the issues.

One of the reasons I support Sanders, he sticks to the issues.

[CreekDog]

193. ah you're saying racism isn't an issue

if one brings up the issue of racism or racial inequality or racial discrimination, it's a distraction from the "issues".

obvious post from...

[karynnj]

186. Every state can be considered "not typical" if you try.

Arkansas was not more typical of the United States than Vermont is. Both are small and mostly rural, but Vermont scores with MA and NJ and other such states on high school test scores ... and Arkansas is usually in the bottom 10. Vermont also has one of the lowest unemployment rates.

Neither are typical of the US, but I don't remember any Democratic comment that we can't elect a governor (Clinton) of a small state that on most metrics of quality of life was at the very bottom. There were many things said against Dean - including many that were unfair (ie "he's angry&quot , but no one said it was because his state was too small, too white and too weird.

As to too white, remember that Bernie was mayor, not of some white, rural part of Vermont, but of Burlington. Though Burlington is pretty white, it is a refugee resettlement area and throughout the town, you will see people from Nepal, Brundi, Somalia, Bosnia, Vietnam etc. In one local elementary school, there was a list of languages spoken in the home. I can't remember the number, but it was over 40. The first grade at a local elementary school was far more diverse than the schools my kids attended in New Jersey.

The question is whether Sanders can really get enough people to believe in him to allow him to do well enough in Iowa and NH - where it really is retail politics to get people to consider him as the one we want for President. That is always a tall order for anyone, but this year will be as tough as challenging a sitting President, as Hillary Clinton is being treated like an incumbent (or at least a favored VP). I think it will be an impossible battle for anyone, BUT if Sanders succeeds, it will be because he will have connected with people and persuaded them to ignore the media and the party. If he can do that, it will be hard to say that he does not have what it takes to win.

[Fairgo]

21. Weird...

The origin of the word translates as, "that which actually happened".

[billhicks76]

41. Vermont Rules

So does Oregon. And for those philistines that say DU isn't the real world...piss off. The fact is DU is actually more conservative than the other liberal spaces. Yes more left than republican areas but way less cutting edge than liberal. The kids today are so far past the center and because democratic strategists are stuck in a static instead of dynamic reality they miss this. Most people are liberal. But not most voters. That's the bottom line. But make no mistake...most of us are light years ahead of the status quo bullshit. And DU is Democratic Party politics. Not very progressive at all...overall. Pockets yes. Even big blocks. But not majority nonwithstanding NSA/military contractor sock puppet profile comments. Commondreams.org and Rawstory.com and Antiwar.com are actual progressive sites. Hopefully we can make DU more progressive.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

47. There are a lot of conservative dem types here.

DU might not exactly match the spectrum of folks to the 'left' of Republicans, but it's not nearly as much of an outlier as people who want to talk about DU as some hotbed of 'out of touch' liberalism want to paint it.

[billhicks76]

49. Exactly

Not even close to "out of touch" far left liberalism. That's a red herring. Fake too.

[LondonReign2]

63. Yup, we have our only little Bob Dole brigade here

[R B Garr]

95. Oh, I heard Fundies and war mongers, too.

U betcha.

Especially anyone who doesn't believe in the conspiracy theories is a war monger or a Fundie. Yessiree.

[billhicks76]

99. Uh

War monger? You mean Hillary The Hawk?

[R B Garr]

109. Phew! At least we have Warren the Republican!

I see how easy this is!

[billhicks76]

143. She Did Used To Be

And Hillary used to be President of the College Republicans. The difference? Warren changed and Hillary is intimate friends and considered family of the Bushes and Kissinger. Barf bag anyone?

[R B Garr]

147. No one gives a shit about what someone did in high school or college.

Only on this website is this even a talking point, and it's only used as a lame rebuttal to Warren being an ex-Republican who switched parties in her 40's because she didn't think their policies were good for the "markets" anymore.

Markets = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[billhicks76]

172. Good Point

But I believe Warren is truthful and Hillary is not. She and her husband are in way too deep with the Bush family and I do care about that. Hillary is an opportunist. It may or may not matter what she was in college which is over privileged. She left the Republican Party because she didn't like the way Nixon trashed her mentor, Rockefeller. I will support Warren and even O'Malley over a Bush lover.

[LondonReign2]

138. Reductio ad absurdum

Thanks for playing, your consolation prize will be waiting backstage.

[R B Garr]

148. Yes, the Bob Dole brigade comment was so much better.

You win.

[A Simple Game]

69. Sadly you are right about DU being more conservative than many places.

Didn't used to be, but what can you do? I'm surprised they haven't removed the word liberal from the mission statement.

[carolinayellowdog]

129. If I had to rank 50 states for "where would I most want the POTUS to be from"

VT would be #1, TX #50-- in the absence of all other info about the candidates. "Vermont politician" inspires more trust than distrust, which had to do with support for Dean too.

[Jackpine Radical]

131. Since when is "weird" a pejorative?

Considering what my wife says about me, I'm in bigger trouble than I knew if that's true.

[Quasimodem]

159. "Weird" became a perjorative in the 1950s ...

... about the same time that "conformist" became a positive personality trait.

Sorry to hear about you and your wife.

[Jackpine Radical]

161. "Sorry to hear about you and your wife."--Why?

She seems to like weird.

[Quasimodem]

166. Glad to hear it.

But, why did you say you were in "big(ger) trouble" then?

[Jackpine Radical]

167. Some uncomprehending souls seem to think that I have a strange sense of humor.

This might be an example of what they are referring to.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

3. This is what a lot of people are going to be saying:

"I don't know nothin' about socialism, fuck socialism,
but have you heard this old cat? Give this guy a listen,
he's tellin' it like nobody else. He's tellin' it."

[BrotherIvan]

151. They already are

[cali]

9. actually, genius, it nothing like Will's post which I didn't care for. duh.

How does it differ? Let me put this simply just for you, since you clearly have issues with distinguishing obvious differences:

It's not inflammatory. I don't tell anyone to shut the fuck up.

It's an observation of facts. Are you familiar with facts?

It makes salient points that contradict a narrative that some espouse.

Did I use to many big words for you? I tried not to.

[Bugenhagen]

16. And the tag team attacking or Sanders supporters is off to a strong start.

Isn't "like click bate [sic] but dumber" the sort of nonsense that gets struck down by juries? It should be.

[cali]

25. a couple of things: there is huge denial going on here. Hillary supporters proclaim

repeatedly that there is no animosity among those in their ranks against Bernie. It's not true, of course, but when confronted with examples they deny, deny and deny some more.

the op wasn't nasty, didn't mention Hillary at all, but still attracted the Hillary supporters. That's fine. I'm more than capable of dealing with any bullshit that anyone may emit.

[brooklynite]

185. "It's not true of course"...

...in which case it'll be easy to cite some posts showing animosity.

[cyberswede]

28. How is the OP dumb?

I read it as observations of what someone has noticed online. What's wrong with that?

If you've noticed different trends, why not say so?

[Enthusiast]

6. Bernie is generating great excitement even though he is barely started.

He will get lots of crossover support from independents and Republicans too.

[leftofcool]

13. Not likely!

[Enthusiast]

17. That's it? Not likely? Not likely, what?

Just a snark?

[cyberswede]

30. Why not? Specifically? nt

[Cosmic Kitten]

89. Hey LoC, have you met MaggieD?

You two have a lot in common.

I support, your support,
of your candidate of choice!

[BrotherIvan]

152. LOL

He already is!

[workinclasszero]

134. Do you honestly believe that?

Wow.

[druidity33]

136. I've already seen it. nt.

[Enthusiast]

163. Yes. Because on the issues Bernie's policies appeal to a huge range of voters.

Listen. The people are tired of being fucked by the establishment. Every kind of American except for the filthy rich and corporations are getting nailed. We all know it! What are you going to say? What is Hillary going to say? "Oh, but we are against corporate abuse too!" What a laugh!

[oberliner]

7. A little similar to the Ron Paul phenomenon not too long ago

If you took a trip through social media during the Ron Paul Revolution days, you would have seen high levels of enthusiasm, lots of people saying they are donating and committed to volunteering. The amount of money he raised online in his money-bombs was off the charts. His political group on Reddit was by far the most popular and there were expressions of support an excitement all over the place.

[cali]

10. oh, cute. I'd say it had more in common with the Howard Dean phenomenon

you couldn't be more transparent in trying to link Bernie with Paul- someone he has vanishingly little in common with.

But of course YOU have never heard of Howard Dean, right?

[oberliner]

11. Linking Bernie to Paul in the sense that they were/are both hugely popular online

But that their popularity did not (in Paul's case) and will not (I predict in Bernie's case) translate to success in the actual primary.

[leftofcool]

14. +1

[Bugenhagen]

15. You rave.

Ron Paul is a degenerate lunatic. His popularity nose-dives whenever anyone actually hears what he has to say. Bernie Sanders is the best candidate for President. His popularity increases when people hear his message.

[oberliner]

19. Paul had a massive and loyal Internet following.

His supporters voted for him early and often in online polls and liked him on social media at a rate that trumped most other candidates. Sanders showed signs of a similar online support Thursday when stories about him made up to 60 percent of Reddit's r/politics page, though he's clearly not yet on Paul's level here.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/05/01/why-bernie-sanders-is-the-democratic-ron-paul-and-why-he-isnt/

That is the only comparison that I am attempting to make (and that WaPo article says it succinctly).

If Sanders gets the nomination, I will vote for him with great enthusiasm.

[cali]

20. so was Dean with whom Bernie has much more in common

why not compare him to Dean who also didn't prevail in the primaries? But no, you had to pick Paul to make your point, even though Dean is a far closer comparison.

Ugh.

[smokey nj]

29. They're trying to dissuade people from supporting Bernie Sanders

by implying he's a magnet for racists. Expect a lot more of this.

[oberliner]

31. I encourage all people to support Bernie Sanders

I do not at all think he is a magnet for racists in any respect whatsoever.

[smokey nj]

33. Of course not.

[oberliner]

36. Bizarre that anyone would think otherwise

Literally one post suggesting that internet success might not translate to on the ground success (as was the case with Ron Paul) and people jump to all these weird conclusions.

[smokey nj]

39. Ok.

[aspirant]

93. So if Oberliners posts were on

the Sanders group, what would you do?

[cali]

40. oh baloney. that sure isn't what your presence in this thread looks like

and that's fine. I don't have a problem responding to your odd posts linking Bernie to Paul when you know perfectly well that a better comparison would have been to Dean.

[oberliner]

59. I think you are seeing something that is not there

I read your post. It made me think of how something similar happened with Ron Paul. I shared that observation. That's it.

I love Bernie Sanders. If he gets the nomination I will do everything in my power to help him win.

[questionseverything]

132. didnt bernie and paul team up to get the fed audited?

The Fed Audit
Thursday, July 21, 2011

The first top-to-bottom audit of the Federal Reserve uncovered eye-popping new details about how the U.S. provided a whopping $16 trillion in secret loans to bail out American and foreign banks and businesses during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. An amendment by Sen. Bernie Sanders to the Wall Street reform law passed one year ago this week directed the Government Accountability Office to conduct the study. "As a result of this audit, we now know that the Federal Reserve provided more than $16 trillion in total financial assistance to some of the largest financial institutions and corporations in the United States and throughout the world," said Sanders. "This is a clear case of socialism for the rich and rugged, you're-on-your-own individualism for everyone else."

Among the investigation's key findings is that the Fed unilaterally provided trillions of dollars in financial assistance to foreign banks and corporations from South Korea to Scotland, according to the GAO report. "No agency of the United States government should be allowed to bailout a foreign bank or corporation without the direct approval of Congress and the president," Sanders said.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/the-fed-audit

i think bernie and paul both are against the mic too

and they both have pretty liberal views about the drug war as bernie just sponsored legislation to make medical mj available to troops with psd

both against spying on citizens,,,,,

Civil Liberties

Sen. Sanders strongly believes the constitutional rights and guarantees that make this country great need not be sacrificed in the name of security. Before being sworn in as a U.S. Senator in 2007, Sanders was one of only 66 members in the U.S. House of Representatives to vote against the USA Patriot Act. He also introduced the first legislation in the House meant to undo some of the unconstitutional provisions in that bill. In the Senate, Sanders has continued to focus on these and other important civil liberty issues, including reining in the NSA's warrantless wiretapping program, restoring habeas corpus rights, controlling the use of wide-sweeping presidential signing statements and putting an end to torture. He has introduced S. 1168, the “Restore Our Privacy Act,” to amend the PATRIOT Act to curtail overly broad surveillance by the government. He also sent a letter to General Keith Alexander, then-head of the NSA, asking if the NSA spies on Congress.

//////////////////////////////////////////////

i know the pauls are a dirty word round here but these 4 areas i listed are where the extreme right and the extreme left meet

[Cosmic Kitten]

90. Hear Hear, lets all suport people who support people!

[oberliner]

35. The internet was a very different place back in the Howard Dean days

Dean was 2004, Paul was 2012. Twitter didn't exist when Dean ran for president, for example.

I definitely agree that Sanders as a candidate is similar to Howard Dean.

My only observation is that the internet may be inflating the sense of how well he will do in the actual primary in the same way that I think that happened with Ron Paul.

[cali]

46. sorry, no. the dean phenomena was very much driven by the internet

no matter the changes.

[oberliner]

54. Not sure what you are saying no to

I agree that the Dean phenomena was very much driven by the internet. His campaign was definitely cutting edge for its time with respect to the internet. I am merely suggesting that things now are more similar to 2012 than 2004. I am drawing no similarities between Sanders and Paul other than how popular they are/were in social media and forums. Dean was similarly popular too.

[LordGlenconner]

121. The comparison with Dean is valid

Sanders will lose (badly) just like Dean did.

[shaayecanaan]

42. paul took positions that were heteredox

from the POV of most of the republican base. His foreign policy stance in particular was more popular amongst democrats than republicans. Sanders is widely respected by most of the democratic base, its just that some of them don't think that he can win.

I would not compare him to Paul. I think better comparisons could be made with either Upton Sinclair or howard dean as was pointed out above.

[sabrina 1]

104. Obama was hugely popular online also. Bernie was born in NY btw. So, can we get to the real reasons

for campaigns now? The reasons why a candidate is popular or not?

Where does your candidate differ from Bernie on, eg, SS?

[oberliner]

115. Not sure what either of those statements have to do with anything

Yes, Obama was hugely popular online. But it was not like Ron Paul. I mean we ought to at least be able to acknowledge that there was a Ron Paul phenomenon online that dwarfed all the other Republican candidates, and yet he did not fare well in the primary. If one only went by what one read online, one would've thought he would do much better in the primaries than he did. I think that the Sanders campaign may be similar in that regard (and it may not). It is just an observation that in no way has anything to do with the actual policies of the candidates in question.

As to where Bernie Sanders was born, I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

My candidate is whoever end up getting the Democratic nomination. Be it HRC, Bernie, O'Malley, Joe Biden - you name it. All of them are infinitely better than the Republicans, and I will work my hardest to make sure the Democratic candidate wins.

[JDPriestly]

127. Because as I said above, it is a sign that young people are supporting

a candidate when he/she does exceptionally well on-line, it is a good sign for Bernie.

And I do think that a lot of young Republicans like the libertarian viewpoint.

Bernie is getting a lot of support from young people because of his stance on the cost of college education. I do not know how Hillary thinks she will fund affordable college education for all. But I know how Bernie intends to do it -- tax the 1%.

Let's see what Hillary says about raising taxes on the 1%. That is her donor base.

[JoeyT]

126. And pretending

that a huge part of Obama's campaign that McCain utterly failed to counter was having an online presence.

If Hillary and her campaign and supporters ignore the internet because it's full of stupid young people, it's going to end badly for them.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

48. Or the Obama phenomena?

He too was hugely popular on social media at a time when most of the country had never heard of him.

[JDPriestly]

125. Obama raised enormous amounts of money on-line.

That is a sign that young people are supporting the candidate.

[Enthusiast]

171. Really? Bernie is no better than Ron Paul? I cannot say the name I would like to call you.

Bernie has principles, Ron Paul is a racist piece of shit.

Bernie's policies are right in line with a majority of the American people. Your job is to obscure that fact.

[MadrasT]

18. About a month ago I was talking with my dad.

Last edited Sat May 2, 2015, 07:59 AM - Edit history (1)

He is 75, campaigned his ass off for Obama in 2008. I think he knocked on every door in the township.

He does NOT do the internet except for email once in a blue moon... gets his news the old fashioned way, newspapers, magazines, and teevee.

He was kind of dejected about 2016, as he is not too fond of Clinton.

And he said, "I wish Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren would run. Then I could get excited about this election."

My dad is a lifelong democrat, but is not a hard core leftist or a socialist by any stretch.

The real world knows Bernie.

Edit to add: we are in Pennsylvania, so it's not like we pay any attention to Vermont especially.

[appalachiablue]

22. +1 Interesting about your father, I think there are others like him in this sense.

[MadrasT]

34. Knowing my pop, he is probably already making calls...

...to find out where he can load up the back of his car with "Bernie" yard signs to plunk down all over the township.

Love my pop.

I was surprised to hear him say it, to tell you the truth, because I had the same perception -- the "real world doesn't know Bernie... only internet politics junkies know Bernie".

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

50. All the yard signs I've seen so far are running 26-65 bucks, unless you want to buy them in

10 packs or more, and even then I don't think they're official.

[MadrasT]

58. Yeah, it is a little soon for official yard signs, LOL.

He is very enthusiastic when he finds a reason to be.

[appalachiablue]

52. He sounds just great, must have very good sense and perception too! I want to get some

Bernie signs, stickers and maybe a cute Vermont 'Bernie Teddy Bear' posted on GD here last night. Absolutely I think the real world will get to know Bernie very soon!




My Dad was colorful, smart, had a wonderful sense of humor, was wise & could spot a BSer a mile away. He would love Bernie Sanders! 70 years ago this week he was age 24, and a 1st Lieut. in the 7th Army liberating Dachau near Munich, after the Rhineland Campaign. I think of him often these days and have his bronze star. That's why it's my avatar now.

[MadrasT]

60. Your dad sounds pretty great, too.

What an amazing thing for him to have been a part of. My dad served in Germany, between Korea & Vietnam. He said it was a pretty easy time to be in the Army... all he had to do was drive a jeep around and drink beer. (He was officially an interpreter-translator but apparently also drove a mail jeep, or something.) My grandpa was in the Army in WWII in the Pacific.



I am pretty excited about 2016 now too... because Bernie!

[wyldwolf]

32. Bernie may still catch fire among the Democratic electorate but...

... it's once again been proven how the minority yet louder further left regions of the party fall in love AND fall in line.

Good luck Bernie! Impressive first day fundraising.

[LondonReign2]

66. There certainly is a loud minority here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026606799

[cali]

74. And over on reddit, in just a couple of days, over 25,000 people have

signed on to the bernie forum in support. Hillary has 300 or so subscribers on reddit. Clearly that doesn't reflect the wider world where she has an overwhelming lead, but it does indicate grass roots support.

[Voice for Peace]

37. I keep remembering what he said: that he was talking to a lot of people, and wasn't going

to run unless he thought he could win. So now he is running.
So I think he can win.

[Pooka Fey]

38. Great observation, Cali!

Thanks for the news!

[Vattel]

44. Do you think Sanders could win in the general election?

[cali]

51. I'm focused on the primary and the issues that Bernie has the potential to

bring to the forefront.

[Vattel]

55. I agree that Sanders' being in the primary is a good thing, but

I feel somewhat desperate to find a candidate that is acceptable and could actually win the general election. Clinton and Biden are unacceptable candidates in my book. O'Malley and Webb are even more unacceptable.

I am not sure how much support one should give to a candidate that can't win in the general. That's why I asked the question that you don't want to answer.

[A Simple Game]

76. What makes you think Bernie can't win in the general? He has way more appeal to

Republicans and especially unaffiliated voters than Hillary does.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

53. If he can win the primary, I think he'll have proven he can win the general.

The Clinton machine is going to be every bit as formidable an opponent as anything the right can field. If you want to downplay beating HRC as some sort of 'nothing' accomplishment in terms of the general, you're basically saying you don't think she's up to winning the general either.

[Vattel]

57. Thanks, I see your point.

The general is different than the democratic primary, though, in that the voters are on average much more conservative in the general. That raises the question of whether a self-described socialist can win the general even if he can win the democratic primary.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

61. I don't think any sort of 'average' voter actually matters.

Who doesn't vote in the Dem primary? Republicans and independents.

Republicans, by and large, aren't going to vote for a Democrat no matter who that Democrat is, barring some fringies who will be matched by some fringe of Dems who will vote Republican.

So the question becomes who are the indies that will vote? And I think they're all across the spectrum. Some will be far right teabagger types, some will be far left communists, some will be simply people who are ticked off at the major parties, but as studies have shown are almost all 'left leaning' or 'right leaning'. We're a polarized country now. The 'middle' is even more mythical than it used to be. So the folks on the left who bother to vote will vote for either the Dem or some lefty third party type, and the folks on the right will vote for the Repub or some righty third party type.

Nader did teach a lesson, although not the lesson most people want to take away. What he taught was that indies are willing to take a risk when they think it won't matter, but once they saw that Repubs could steal close elections, they didn't want to even take a chance on elections being closer than they could. His 5% 2000 vote dropped to less than a percent when he ran again in 2004. Almost all (lefty) indies held their nose and voted for the Dem.

So the voters that matter for the left in the general rather than the primary are left-leaning indies. And I don't agree with you that that specific block of voters is, on average, 'more conservative'. If anything, I think they're less conservative, which is why they're indies rather than Dems already. Right leaning indies don't matter because the only way to even try to win them is to act like a Republican.

[Vattel]

65. Obviously I didn't say that "that specific block of voters is, on average, 'more conservative.'"

But to get to your main argument, which is very interesting, I am not entirely convinced that the middle is as mythical as the success of your argument requires. But you might be right. I am just saying that I would need to see more evidence to be convinced. I might also add that it seems to me that whether moderates would prefer Sanders to the Republican nominee will depend partly on how far right the Republican nominee is. If they put a tea-bagger out there, a socialist might not seem so bad to a moderate.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

71. Stipulated, although there's a second half of the argument I didn't address in that comment.

What is actually going to motivate independents to come to the polls, as opposed to skipping voting. And that's more of a 'base' appeal. Ie, the folks more likely to be drawn out of 'not voting' are those who are drawn out because they actually feel they might get some more representation then they generally feel they have in a 'standard' candidate.

Go back to 2008. Masses of 'new' voters or sporadic voters came out in the general for Obama, who, despite his later more conservative or 'bipartisan' governing style, used lots of lefty-sounding rhetoric when campaigning. Those voters 'hoped' for 'change'. It was the promise of change that drew them out. They didn't want someone who was going to be just like every other politician.

So here we are, seven years later, and all we've really done is stop the bleeding. Despite the 'recovery', in which the wealthy recovered very nicely, more people are in poverty, more people are near poverty, more people are underemployed or have given up on looking for work entirely. (which, admittedly, makes the % unemployed look much better, since those people no longer 'count'.) Rather than being a country of workers, we've slapped a bandaid of subsidized healthcare on the wound, to cover up the fact than people aren't getting paid enough to pay for their own healthcare, and have less wealth than they did a decade before.

Voters still want someone new, someone who will get something done to put wages back in pockets, to rebuild wealth for EVERYONE, not just the richest. They still want 'Change'. And there's nothing less 'Changey' than a Clinton or a Bush. That's simply not going to excite sporadic voters or nonvoters to come out.

[Vattel]

75. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for drawing my attention to these considerations.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

79. You are certainly welcome.

On the flip side, there's always 'money money money'. But that's what I think (I hope?) the primary will show us. Will massive money and name recognition triumph, or will grass-roots activism and enthusiasm pull out a second HRC upset?

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. Just a note and fairly recent

So it will be tested this year, and that primary is way late. California has an open non partisan ballot for everybody.

[BrotherIvan]

157. I did not know this

Will it be open voting for primaries?

[nadinbrzezinski]

160. Yup, it was first tested in 2014

ironically it is a system, where the top two move on to general regardless of party, for state and local. Federal it does not quite work the top two, but it is open primaries.

It got weird in 2014.

I know we cover this shit, so.

The inside baseball the Rs pushed that through expecting to benefit. A few very red areas had two republicans in the general, (we had that with two judges, a tea party darling and a moderate republican)... but we also had two democrats vying for the general in November in 2014.

Many races where the Rs would have been up in November, did not make it. So I give it two more cycles before we go back to the old ways.

[BrotherIvan]

162. If it's at the state level don't we have Democrats in majority there?

Is there any idea that that will switch any time soon? I thought the demographics had shifted enough and people had learned their lesson that Rs are a disaster.

[nadinbrzezinski]

165. Oh the dems control both the Assembly and the Senate

and the coasts are mostly blue or purple, but this is not the first time they do this, it backfires, and they take it to the courts.

[BrotherIvan]

168. They can't win any other way

They're assholes from coast to coast

[nadinbrzezinski]

169. I am talking California Coastal areas

not all coasts

[PassingFair]

80. I think that Clinton CAN'T.

What possible cross-over could she bring?
She is absolutely, froth at the mouth hated by the pukes.

Half of democrats don't like her,
and ALL pukes hate her.

I'm worried she will try to cheat somehow, like she did in
the last election.

[Scuba]

45. Seems apparent that the Hillary fan club is scared of Bernie.

No, it's not just DU. Bernie's messagre resonates with a whole lot of people, including many Republicans. More importantly, it strikes a chord with those who don't typically vote and I believe it will motivate lots of those folks to the polls.

[NanceGreggs]

108. How does Bernie's message resonating ...

... with a lot of people translate into Hillary's camp being "scared" of Bernie?

The repetition of this mindless meme is embarrassingly silly, and is more appropriate as a schoolyard taunt than as a contribution to serious political discussion.

I also note the use of "fan club" to describe HRC supporters; yet another display of childish silliness in lieu of mature political conversation.

[NanceGreggs]

114. I have to assume ...

... you replied to me by mistake, as your response here (and at #100) have nothing to do with what I just stated.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. in fact deleting

Those non important observations.

[NanceGreggs]

124. I didn't say your observations ...

... were unimportant. They just have nothing to do with my particular post.

[Scuba]

179. Oh, there's a fan club all right ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026507869


And it's not Bernie's resonating messge that scares the fan club members but I think most DU members are able to handle multiple topics in a single post.

[NanceGreggs]

181. Do you really want to play this game?

There's some absolutely ridiculous things being posted by the Bernie "fans" as well.

It's too bad so many of the Sanders folks don't have the same maturity and integrity as the man they "support".

[L0oniX]

183. +1

[Cryptoad]

62. "what color is the sky in your world?"

[cali]

67. Blue. I deal with reality. You? Haven't seen that.

[Ichingcarpenter]

68. The redditt forums for president by the numbers

Rand Paul

randpaul
subscribe 2,939 readers
~9 users here now

http://www.reddit.com/r/RandPaul


SandersForPresident

subscribe 26,304
~ 457 users here now

http://www.reddit.com/r/sandersforpresident



Hillary

subscribe 186

~0 users here now

http://www.reddit.com/r/clinton/



All the other candidates have no forum or support.

[rgbecker]

73. Please Bernie, No rides in small airplanes.

[PassingFair]

78. DC is the "bubble", not DU.

She was supposed to be inevitable LAST election as well.

No one was supposed to take BHO seriously. But they DID.
Because rank and file democrats did NOT appreciate her pandering.

She couldn't back peddle on pledges to not run in states that
jumped the gun on the DNC primary schedule, although she
tried. I'm sure she's not worried about that THIS time, as she
has her pet Debbie in charge of the rules.

I'm a little bit disappointed that a prominent democratic progressive
hasn't jumped in yet, but I'll take Bernie, if that's what we have.

[Cosmic Kitten]

91. The Beltway Bubble! spot on.

The Dee Cee pundits,
the sycophants,
and the opportunists.

The Beltway Bubble

[Populist_Prole]

97. Most cogent post of the entire thread n/t

[aspirant]

102. Let's be real here

DU is not the real world too, that's why it's called DEMOCRATIC Underground and not All Parties(or All American) Underground.

[Scuba]

180. Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

[Autumn]

81. No, it sure as hell ain't just DU

Support for "the old curmudgeon with bad hair" is cropping up everywhere. It feels good.

[smokey nj]

82. It does!!!

[seabeyond]

83. i could easily see this happening have a pretty large circle of first time voters in my life. nt

[Jesus Malverde]

84. Bump

😜

[malthaussen]

88. Okay, but let's be reasonable...

... any newly-announced candidate is going to get a lot of chatter. It is a long way to the primaries.

Still, I liked that Reddit information posted earlier. Could be there is a lot of interest out there.

-- Mal

[Cosmic Kitten]

92. It could be made into a monster....

if we all pull together as a team

[woo me with science]

94. It sure as hell isn't!

Finally, a candidate for the 99 percent!

[AgingAmerican]

96. It's a meme that is trotted out when nothing else works

nt

[LiberalElite]

98. It's really ironic that

a Hillary supporter should say that DU is not the real world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. Real world May Day event

There were different groups mind you, but the informal topics of conversation were...Bernie Sanders. I had to explain to a few people that as an independent non partisan outlet we don't endorse.

But Bernie was definitely on tip of many, many tongues.

The second was the surprise of the 6 indictments.

If I posted here what folks in the March, both young and old, were saying about Capitalism, Democrats and HRC in particular, would have me run on a rail. Suffice it, it is far from nice.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

101. I wonder how any Democrat has ever won any political office when I look at this endless

infighting.

Disagreement and differences should produce a healthier outcome where ALL come together for the greater good, not endless fighting where nobody comes together.

Is that gonna happen no matter who the Democratic candidate is?

Is it going to be groups so pissed off they refuse to vote?

[brewens]

105. Wasn't Jerry Brown the last man standing besides Clinton before he finally won out?

The way I remember it, Brown had lot of support. Give 'em hell Bernie!

[iamthebandfanman]

106. ive donated. n/t

[hifiguy]

107. As another DUer put it, the Turd Way crowd is loading their collective pants

over Bernie's entry into the race. If his message gets out effectively and broadly, the feces are going to hit the impeller blades for them and they know it.

[Buzz Clik]

111. That "another DUer"...

... is a bit of a dolt. "Turd Way"? How mature.

[Maedhros]

122. "If he can get his message out" is the key determinant.

There will be much effort put into preventing that.

[BeanMusical]

117. Kick and R.

[brooklynite]

118. Social media isn't the real world either...

...it's a subset, and it may be reflective of a segment of the population, but there are millions of voters not politically engaged enough to be discussion politics here, on Facebook, on Twitter, Reddit, Pinterest or elsewhere.

[Overseas]

119. K&R. Glad to hear it.

[NYC_SKP]

120. The year 2019: "Hey, cali, remember the 2016 primaries? ROFL!"

"Damn, nobody said it could be done. I can't wait to see who wants to challenge President Sanders this time around!"

[eridani]

123. In the real world, most people don't give a flying fuck about public policy

DU and other boards devoted to such discussion therefore represent a minority. This is nothing to cheer about.

[cali]

133. fail. raising $1.5 million on social media in 24 hours, is something to cheer about

and yes, in the real world people care about public policy. They may not call it that, but they care about issues that impact their lives.

[eridani]

137. The fundraising is great, but that does not mean that the general electorate is well informed

I was doorknocking for a transit levy last April, and one 3 for 3 voter told me that she threw her ballot away because there was just one thing to vote on, and she considered it a waste of a stamp. There are more of her by far than there are people who regularly follow politics on boards like DU.

[angrychair]

130. Go Bernie go!

[zeemike]

135. As others have pointed out, it is not about Bernie Sanders.

He is not rock star and does not try to be one...it is totally about issues and real change.
That is what people are hungry for and that is what he offers.

People are tired of rock stars because they have not led to any real change...they are ready for someone they can believe in.

[silvershadow]

139. And even several right-wingers on my FB are enthused. That is something, as he is about as

far left as we have these days. I love it. I love him. And I do believe he is going to win it all.

[Logical]

142. You can tell this Bernie attention is annoying the Hillary people. Cracks me up. nt

[stevenleser]

144. It wasn't just DU with Kucinich in 2004 either. It still was a small minority. Just like now.

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh16dem.htm

I'm glad those supporting Bernie for President are enthusiastic about him, but inventing the idea that there is huge support for him won't help you.

[valerief]

146. Bad hair, yes, but he's got a sexy NY accent. nt

[Blue_In_AK]

149. All the Democrats and left-leaning independents that I personally know in Alaska

are excited that Bernie Sanders has entered the race.

[Dont call me Shirley]

150. Hey, Bernie has cute hair, kinda wild like einstein.

[shanti]

153. knr for bernie!

when i told my mother who i was going to vote for in the primaries, she said he was too old. she's always wanted hillary though. i told her they were pretty close in age, but i think she just wants to see a woman president in her lifetime (she's 83).

finally, a candidate i will enjoy voting for! i just hope he doesn't turn out like the last vermonter that ran for pres (and who also had my primary vote).

[doc03]

154. They are both too old look how Obama aged in the job

Hillary will be 69 and Bernie 75. Isn't there anyone that isn't old enough to collect SS?

[marym625]

155. K&R!

Not too shabby!

[yuiyoshida]

156. Join me..

https://twitter.com/yuiyoshida1987/status/594672537943977985

I donated 10 dollars, will do better next month.

[TRoN33]

158. we Vermoters considered ourselves to be far more normal compared to most of states. :-D

[Quasimodem]

164. Yes, but ...

... if you are far more normal than most states, wouldn't that make you an outlier, and therefor abnormal?

[TRoN33]

173. Because there are no lights and no billboards on highway, that makes us...

Abormal?

We have cleanest water, we're the first state to say no to nuclear (I was there at historic rally against Entergy), we fought for and passed GMO label laws (recently VT's Supreme Court upheld the ruling which we won again), and lastly, my most favorite part, we are also the most hated state in corporate netherworld because they march in and repeatedly attempted to change our ways of lives to zero success.

We're simply normal.

My mom and dad came and visit us from far west of U.S. My dad came to me and he said for the first time he can enjoy evasdropping (his hearing is ultra sensitive) on Vermonters' conversations and show a lot of appreciation of intellectuals of Vermonters.

[pablo_marmol]

176. You left out one other plus.

Vermont trusts it's citizens enough to allow them the right of self-defense (concealed carry/open carry) practically wherever they go.

Must create a mountain of cognitive dissonance for the faux-progressive wing of the Democratic Party.

http://gunsnfreedom.com/nra-outspent-5-to-1-but-soundly-defeat-anti-gunners-wish-in-vermont/4991

[Quasimodem]

190. When it is folly to be wise, etc., etc. n/t

[pablo_marmol]

175. I can't disagree with y'all! :-) NT

[cali]

177. you realize I am a Vermonter, right?

[TRoN33]

192. You're 802er? I did had discussions with friends in Brattleboro

They said outsiders would considered us to be weird in not so good ways. One of them said we can be weird in many good ways anyways.

[pablo_marmol]

178. Love Bernie Sanders and Vermont culture.

If I wuzn't such a spoiled little SoCal bitch I'd consider relocating there.

[Goblinmonger]

188. That's a great sign.

He is a refreshing voice.

[Stuart G]

191. I agree with you..Word of Mouth Advertising is Very Effective..

And people talk about Bernie's honesty and caring for others.. That is very special