Bernie isn't McGovern or Mondale, and it isn't 1972 or 1984

[First Speaker]

We are a universe away from those days. Not only is the Cold War ancient history, but the Post Cold War World is gone, too. Redbaiting a Social Democrat isn't as easy as it used to be. And the whole political and social gestalt is primed for a shift away from the conservative consensus that's ruled since 1978, if the issues can be properly articulated by the right person. I think Bernie can be that person. And let's look at those elections. In both cases, the Dem was up against a powerful and ruthless--in the case of Nixon--or popular--Reagan--Republican. Vietnam and the conflicts of the 60s were still simmering in 1972--in fact, McGovern's defeat was really the last shout of the 1960s. And those disputes were much more polarizing than anything the past decade has seen, over the Mideast Wars. And let's face it--McGovern was a lousy candidate. (Eagleton, anyone?) And I doubt any Dem could have beaten Reagan in 1984, unless some proof of his--Reagan's--Alzheimer's had come out. As for Bernie--of course, the Fox News/right wing vomit machine will have a fit if he's nominated. But it's just possible he could isolate those people and win over the people in the middle, if he just tells the obvious truth and sticks to his message--a message that almost everyone knows is true. I believe firmly that Bernie Sanders can be elected President in 2016.

[leftofcool]

1. It won't be just Faux Noise, MSNBC has already started the socialist meme.

As unfortunate as this is, many moderate Dems shy away from the word "socialist." What I wish for Bernie is to just drop the socialist part and call himself a Democrat. He is a great guy and he doesn't need the tag.

[IDemo]

3. I don't know why 'Socialist' can't be mainstreamed again in America

Oh wait, yes I do.

[uncleverusername]

5. Democrat is synonymous with corporatist these days

I'd much rather be called a socialist.

Not to mention that 18-35 year olds are closer to Bernie's line of thinking now than they were in 1980. With the internet and social media, the news has far less power to turn socialism into a dirty word than they did before.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. All I will say with all the soft money permeating the system politics is infinitely nastier now ...

All I will say with all the soft money permeating the system politics is infinitely nastier now than it was then.

It's a bloodsport.

[Thinkingabout]

4. You are right, it isn't 1974 or 1984, it is a new world, we had not experienced

9/11, the world requires newer thinking today. The planning in 1978 and 1984 is past history and we can not use those years as a pattern anymore.

[Gothmog]

6. I like Bernie but I do not believe that Bernie is not a viable general election candidate

The Kochs are going to be spending $889 million and the GOP candidate another billion dollars. Right now HRC looks like she can raise that type of money and keep the race competitive. Why take a chance with Bernie when the stakes are so high? If the GOP wins the White House in 2016, we will lose the SCOTUS for a generation

[winter is coming]

16. Why take a chance with Bernie?

Because he didn't have to be "reintroduced" to us as someone who's concerned about inequality and oligarchy, and those will be huge issues next year. If the stakes are as high as you say, Dems will cough up for whoever the nominee is.

[Gothmog]

18. I fear that Bernie's appeal is far more limited compared to HRC

I do not believe that Bernie will be viable in a general election and I want to make sure that the Democrats control the White House and replacement judges for the SCOTUS. If the GOP win in 2016, we will lose control of the SCOTUS for a generation

[winter is coming]

19. Which positions do you think he has that wouldn't appeal to Dem voters? n/t

[Gothmog]

23. You do realize that DU does not represent the entire Democratic party

The term socialist will be a turn off to some portion of the base that does not post on DU

[winter is coming]

25. I'm asking about content, not labels.

Yeah, Bernie's a Democratic Socialist. Which policies does he advocate that you feel are anathema to what Dems want?

[Gothmog]

26. Turning the US into Scandinavia is not likely to play well in Iowa

Do you really think that Bernie will win even one primary other than Vermont? Bernie is not viable in a national race or in most Democratic primaries

[winter is coming]

28. If he's not viable, why waste time discussing him? n/t

[Gothmog]

29. I am amused by the supporters who are convinced that Bernie will be the nominee

I doubt that Bernie will win a primary outside of Vermont. Bernie is not a viable general election candidate and the Democrats cannot afford to lose the White House in 2017. If Bernie was the nominee, then Jeb or Walker will win in 2016 and we will lose control of the SCOTUS for a generation.

I like Bernie as a person and like many of his positions but I am going to support someone who can win in November

[winter is coming]

33. I'm amused by the supporters who believe that someone who couldn't even win

their party's nomination the last time they ran is the "safe" choice for 2016.

[Gothmog]

37. Bernie is not President Obama and does not have an organization

Do you really think that Bernie can win a primary other than the Vermont primary? Viability is an important issue in the primary process and Bernie is not viable in a general election contest unless Carly Fiorina is the nominee. Bernie will not be able to raise the funds necessary to compete in the primary process much less in a general election

[winter is coming]

39. Yes, I think Bernie might win some other primaries.

I have no idea of how many. Then again, I don't know how many Hillary will win, either. What I do know is that a lot of people told me Hillary had plenty of money and name recognition and endorsements in the run-up to '08, and they weren't enough for her to close the deal. It's not just about sheer fundraising capability, and the '16 climate is, if anything, less favorable to centrists than '08.

[tblue37]

36. Actually, a lot of people in Iowa (nearly 10% of the state's population) are of Scandinavian

ancestry. Maybe *that* part of his comments won't bother them so much.

[Gothmog]

38. Iowa requires a strong ground game.

President Obama had 30+ field offices opened in Iowa at this time in 2007. The people who ran Obama's Iowa operations are now working for Clinton. This will be a fun contest to watch

[tblue37]

40. Yep. I love Bernie's integrity and intelligence, his commitment to

the people and his willingness to fight against the corporate leeches who are destroying everything. But at the moment it is Hillary's campaign that plans to reintroduce Howard Dean's 50-state strategy and that will have the money to actually build that ground game in all 50 states. She screwed up in the 2008 primary partly because they all thought she could coast on inevitability, and also because neither she nor her team realized what Obama was doing with the caucus states, where he rather stealthily locked up more delegates than she accumulated in the big states like New Jersey and Texas, which were the ones she and her team focused on. She won't make that mistake again, I bet.

Of course, she does have a tendency to listen to some really bad political advisors, and she also seems to value loyalty over frankness in her team, probably because of being so endlessly, relentlessly under siege. She ends up in a bubble where she hears nothing that contradicts the narrative she and her campaign start out with, so they don't keep their knees loose, ready to recalibrate and pivot when circumstances change. But if she has brought in Obama's people, and if she lets them loose to do their best work, that might not be such a problem this time around. I do wish, though, that the Clintons had the sense to make use of Howard Dean, but of course none of the establishment Dems have ever recognized or appreciated how much he did for the party and how much they owed the 2006 wins to his efforts as DNC chair. They actually let that jerk Rahm Emanuel claim all the credit for the success of Dean's strategy.

Clinton also simply could not compete with Obama's rock star presence, or with the fact that he appeared as just the right person at a point when the paradigm seemed to be shifting and voters seemed to want to look forward rather than backward. She could never have brought out the youth vote the way he did. Dean had a similar impact on young voters, though not to the same extraordinary degree, and I believe Bernie might also create some real excitement in that youth demographic. Whoever gets the nomination will need to energize voters who are not always politically engaged or committed to voting. I hope that when he campaigns for the Dem candidate, Obama's charisma will bring such voters to our nominee, whoever that turns out to be, the way he drew them to his own campaign. I think he will have a big impact on the 2016 campaign trail, but I worry that a lot of people who flock to his campaign appearances to see him still won't be excited about voting for anyone else the way they were about voting for him.

To be honest, I rather hope the Repubs end up with a retread candidate, not someone who could be marketed as a "fresh face," because I do worry that a lot of shallow, inattentive voters will think that youth and "newness" are worthy of their vote, despite the Repub candidate's espousing of outdated policy positions that have been repeatedly proven to create problems rather than solve them.

Besides her tendency to bring in really lousy advisors and to stick with them because they are loyal and make her feel safe, Clinton also has an unfortunate propensity for unforced errors. I think that is partly because she keeps trying to use the triangulation trick that worked for her husband, and that leads her to make unprincipled choices on the assumption that they will enhance her political prospects. That's what her idiotic Iraq War resolution vote was about. We know that she knew better, but she was scared that voting against the resolution would paint her as weak on defense at a time when Americans were stampeding in response to 9/11. Dems have always been labeled as defense wussies by Repubs, and as a woman, she obviously feared she would take a double whammy on that issue if she voted against the resolution. And then, during the primary, she also feared that apologizing for that vote would make her seem weak on defense in the general election. She expected she would probably run against McCain, who was always being painted as a big ol' war hero. Once again, believing that she could coast to the nomination kept her attention on what she thought she needed to do to win the general election, and that assumption prevented her from focusing on what the Dem voters wanted to hear from her.

I will vote for whoever our nominee is, of course, but I am torn. I want to vote for Bernie in the primary, and I might well do so, even though I worry because he doesn't have the name recognition and national presence or the kind of funding that she can bring to the table. Also, since she has beefed up her team with some of Obama's people, she might run a much better campaign this time, so that would make her a more viable candidate in the general than she might otherwise be. On the other hand, if he (or anyone else) wins the primary, that means Hillary simply isn't a strong enough candidate to win the general anyway.

I guess I will just have to watch and see how she handles herself this time around. I have been pleased to see her moving left on the economy, but I hope it isn't just rhetoric. Maybe it really is her time at last, but Bernie is the only candidate in the race right now who espouses and has always espoused the values I believe in--and the ones that used to be the core principles of the Democratic Party.

[Gothmog]

41. Clinton's adoption of a 50 state strategy is a good thing for red state democrats

I understand that Mark Penn is not being used this cycle and that Clinton has hired a number of the Obama campaign staff

[enough]

7. Nobody under 50 has any kind of reaction at all to the word "socialist."

I say this as a person far far over 50. Politics, because it's run by the rich, has a fear of old memes. That one has no power at all, except among the rich, who tend to be old.

Yes I know there are a lot of rich young people. But the politics we're doing now is still dominated by the old, because they have the money.

[brooklynite]

8. You make assertions without evidence...

I've heard for years that were on a verge of "the working class"/"the 99%" rising up to retake control of Government and Society. I see no sign of a radical political shift, and you haven 't provided any evidence of one.

[First Speaker]

9. Well, lacking a crystal ball, or even a Ph.D in Poli Sci, I can't "prove" what the future holds...

...just callin' em as I see 'em. Having lived thru this whole era, I sense a Ruling Paradigm on the verge of exhaustion. The next paradigm doesn't have to be "progressive"--it could be Tea Party/Radical Right easily enough. But it *could* be a change for the better, and I think Senator Sanders *could* be a fulcrum for that change.

[BrotherIvan]

11. I see disappointment with the current administration has pushed many people further left

[charlyvi]

10. My first vote was for McGovern

and I can tell you. The gestalt is not leaning towards the left. God knows I wish it was. FDR democrats no longer exist. Sanders does not have a chance in Hell to be President of the US. Bernie is less than Mondale -- he is not a Democrat. He is an Independent and has not changed his party affiliation. He will not be the next President of the US.

[Paladin]

24. +1000.

A once-in-a-lifetime experience with your political party committing electoral suicide is more than enough. McGovern '72 was it for me---and George McGovern was a self-identified Democrat and a decorated war hero. Offering up a socialist candidate to face a radicalized Republican ticket and a scared-shitless voting public is sheer idiocy. And another helpful hint: a political movement that has to resort to terms like "Granny Panties" against its opposition candidate---and yes, I saw that exact term applied to HRC, this morning, right here on DU---is a political movement that's not going anywhere.

[leftofcool]

30. Was my first vote as well.

I do not want to see a repeat of that election.

[GeorgeGist]

12. 31 years is a universe?

I don't think so.

[madokie]

13. How anyone can not like Bernie is beyond my comprehension

Not talking about the right wing nuts here though. They'll hate him no matter, Fuck them
Thats what they do

[okasha]

14. It's possible to like him--a lot--

and still be realistic about his nonexistent possibility of winning the general.

[madokie]

15. Its also possible to see it completely different than you do too

I think he has an excellent chance, in fact I expect to see him win
No amount of you or anyone else saying he doesn't have a chance will change my mind. Bernies message is a popular one and most people will warm right up to him once they start seeing and hearing him speak. hes the real deal.

[appalachiablue]

17. RWers probably don't like each other. In fact, I'm sure of it- ever seen them friendly, close?

Money and power are their game I think- no genuine camaraderie, immature, petty, self-focused, unworldly, undereducated and don't care, craven, no dignity or good nature.

I also don't get the not liking Bernie by many/ most here, with all his tremendous qualities- brains, integrity, truth, courage, cute humor. How this country is sinking and he's been trying for years to help with all he's got. And almost alone in predicting, calling out the real dangers. We are now truly deep in the corporate, wealth, vanity and hairspray era for 20+ years.

Yet several or more OPs I've read tonight by many are very favorable about him, excited. Gives hope.
Others are raw centrists, or youngish types ridiculing his hair, used to more youthful, hip Obama. And not their fault some are shallow, having grown up with heavy, heavy advertising, materialism and consumerism. And 24/7 entertainment. Thanks to Reaganomics, greed, money worship. And I like nice things but wow-

*One poster here adds in disparaging Bernie and his type..that no one remembers FDR anymore...Think about that, he's just gone- because he's inconvenient to their neoliberal economic gains. That's like saying Ike or Lincoln are done, gone; or Madison, TJ, GW.

I have a low tolerance for some 'Democrats' these days and foolishness here. But, it's been 25 years in the making of 'New Dems.' so it's entrenched. End of rant- tomorrow will be better, peace!

[Initech]

21. They're fighting each other now. It's a civil war between the tea party and the moderates.

Pass the butter.

[Initech]

20. If there is a member of the BFEE in this election, odds are good they will try to steal it.

But then again this isn't 2000, we are onto their dirty schemes. Social media didn't exist then, it does now. If they attempt to pull the same shit they did in Florida, we will be ready for them. Fuck Jeb and the BFEE. Bernie in 2016.

[Ken Burch]

22. For that matter, Mondale didn't run as a liberal.

He ran as a "balance the budget&quot i.e., permanent Reaganomics) centrist insider and a Cold Warrior(Mondale opposed any significant cuts in the war budget, blocked most anti-nuclear platform language, and promised to impose a Cuba-style economic blockade on Sandinista Nicaragua). He also refused to back any measures to re-ibdustrialize the upper Midwest(a region he should have been able to carry easily, but where he was shut out other than in his home state) and chose a running mate who had tried to remove support of the Equal Rights Amendment from the platform.

The Mondale Administration would have been the Lutheran version of the Clinton Administration, eight years early.

[orpupilofnature57]

27. Nor is he Nader or Jon Anderson, he is one of the only people in Washington

who isn't on the take and has told us the truth without switching stories, or morphing into other entities that are diametrically opposed, like Hillary .

[doxyluv13]

31. He's more likely to be a Gene McCarthy

Meaning if his campaign starts getting traction, a bigger name is likely to leap in and split the anti-establishment vote.

Any other DUers remember 1968? I was 10 years below voting age but already a progressive Democrat.

Anyway, the point is McCarthy, as an antiwar candidate, scored big enough in New Hampshire to drive LBJ from the race. But that only pulled in RFK, who'd been reluctant to challenge an incumbent President.

[ibegurpard]

32. And the "socialist" smear...

...has been overused to the point that it is now meaningless. Any Democrat is a "socialist" to the right wing.

[L0oniX]

35. I had no idea Dems hated social security socialism.

[tblue37]

34. I hope so. nt