"Probably the hardest decision I've ever had to make."

[PBass]

That's what Hillary Clinton said about her vote to authorize Bush's use of force in Iraq.

"Probably the hardest decision I've ever had to make."

There is way too much overheated rhetoric and childish mud-slinging on DU. When I see people calling Hillary a warmonger, or referring to her Iraq vote with utter contempt, I dismiss their viewpoints and suspect their rationality.

I'm coming around on Bernie Sanders' candidacy (I love him in the Senate, I wasn't sure about him as a presidential candidate before). I can see now that even if Bernie doesn't win, he plants a foothold for other more-progressive candidates in the future. In the meantime, the attacks against Clinton too often reduce the dialogue to a bunch of easy stereotypes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. It was predicated on blind faith. How tough can that be? n/t

[PBass]

2. I don't understand your comment.

What was predicated on blind faith - Hillary's vote, or the invasion of Iraq in general?

Also, lots of Congressional votes are "predicated on blind faith". And...?

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. The IWR vote was predicated on blind faith that GW Bush was not lying to them.

"Uh, okay. Whatever you say." doesn't strike me as a tough decision. It strikes me as a lazy one.

[PBass]

58. Your post is lazier than anything you would blame on Senator Clinton.

I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion here. You're not contributing to that.

"Uh, okay. Whatever you say."

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. Okee dokee

I think "hard" wasn't exactly the word she was looking for. I think that word was "stupid".

On that basis, she's less qualified to be president than the average DU'er. We knew better.

[L0oniX]

3. I'm wasn't privy to inside gov info and I knew the reasoning to go to war with Iraq was bogus.

If I knew it back before they voted on it and I am not the only one on DU that knew it. I do not accept her inattentive excuses "Probably the hardest decision I've ever had to make."

[Andy823]

8. Did you vote for Kerry?

It all comes down to voting for whoever you want in the primary, but come the general election, and it's the democratic nominee against the republican nominee, then one has do decide which one of the is going to be better than the other. For me it's not a choice. There is no way in hell I want to see another republican nominating right wing radical judges on the Supreme Court, or talking away programs that help those in need, including our vets, or ending programs to help with climate change, and the list goes on. Hillary may not be my first choice, I am still waiting to see who else runs, but in the end whoever it is that wins the nomination will have my vote come election day 2016.

[SheilaT]

4. At the time of the Iraq War Vote I was completely furious

at everyone who voted for it. How could it be obvious to me that there was nothing there, not reason to go to war, and yet those in power bamboozled our Congress into it? It was so clear that the Bush administration was lying to us that it was almost funny. Except it wasn't at all funny.

It did not take a lot of courage on the part of those who voted to go to war, because their fallback was ALWAYS: we were told there were good reasons, and who were we to doubt? What took courage was to vote no.

[Bonobo]

7. My fury is unabated at that.

And I will do my best to see it is not forgotten or brushed under the carpet.

[Art_from_Ark]

43. I'm with you

It was sooooooooooo obvious from the get-go that BushCo wanted a war with Iraq. And it was sooooooooo obvious that Iraq couldn't have had anywhere near the offensive military capacity that was being attributed to it.

[840high]

61. ,+1

[Bonobo]

5. Is that an apology....

for the destruction of an ancient country and the murder of innocents done under a false and trumped up reason?

Nope, it isn't.

[L0oniX]

16. ^^^this^^^

[swilton]

6. It's not just Hillary's vote on the Iraq War

It's her general reliance on the military as the first tool in the foreign policy box - other tools exist.

To give examples - the Libyaan crisis, Syria, Ukraine, Iran ...the list is endless.

She is actually gleeful about toppling/assassinating Gaddafi...here is a clip to remind you.

[Bonobo]

9. Wow, Julius Caesar but even better!

"We came, we saw, he died."

That's a strong, strong leader who knows how to revel in some friendly bloodletting.

[swilton]

18. NATO airstrikes on Libya

were a violation of the UN Charter....and did nothing to help the civilians (er a victims of collateral damage) in Libya. Libya is not a better place because of the US led (under Secretary of State Clinton) intervention.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Gaddafi was a monster who raped young boys and girls.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.570727

[Rosa Luxemburg]

22. but he was a friend of Tony Blair

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. The U S and the U K tried to rehabilitate him when he foreswore his WMDs program.

It seems what has replaced him and the concomitant anarchy might be worse. I don't believe i am qualified to navigate through the thicket of Middle Eastern politics. Every time a despot is overthrown he is replaced by someone worse or anarchy...

But Gaddafi was not a nice guy.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

29. no he wasn't particularly nice

but what despot is or was?

[Oilwellian]

34. WE raped young boys at Abu Ghraib

We're hardly a nation with any honor or integrity left.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. These rapes were conducted by President Gaddafi himself...

If you don't believe that's a significant difference imagine young boys and girls being delivered to an American president for his or her sexual pleasure.


If a leader of any nation did that I wouldn't shed a tear if they were subject to the rough justice President Gaddafi was.

[boston bean]

13. I remember lockerbie... I don't really care the guy died

I'm sure the victims families could care less either.

[KMOD]

17. As a friend of someone who lost their daughter,

yes. There is no love loss there.

[Bonobo]

20. More a style issue for me.

I could do without another leader of America who utters that kind of sickeningly bombastic, bloodthirsty rhetoric in order to score points with the Bubbas out there.

[Oilwellian]

32. Here's another doozy

Hillary at her, ahem, finest...

Full interview:

[tularetom]

10. No, it was the hardest decision her advisors, media gurus and focus group facilitators

ever had to make.

And once they told her a vote for the IWR would make her look "tough", there was no decision needed.

[think]

12. The UN didn't buy into the war claims. The war was never sanctioned. Something to consider

And many Americans weren't fooled by the attempts to link Saddam to 9/11. It was sad propaganda that worked. Where were our leaders to protect us from the lies that lead this great nation to war?

[L0oniX]

15. +1

[PBass]

25. You contradict yourself...

"And many Americans weren't fooled by the attempts to link Saddam to 9/11. It was sad propaganda that worked."\

(You just said two differing things).

Many Americans weren't fooled (but most were). The Iraq invasion was VERY popular (sadly). The propaganda DID work.

[think]

30. 7 out of 10 Americans incorrectly thought Saddam was directly involved with 9/11

Many Americans albeit not the majority of Americans were not fooled by the lies our politicians fed us.

Consider it a contradiction if you must. The important thing is our leaders FAILED us and sent us to war based on a completely fabricated scenario.

Bernie Sanders voted no and spoke out against this. Hillary chose to vote yes.

Make of it what you will......

[PBass]

31. 7 out of 10 IS a majority (NT)

[Art_from_Ark]

45. *Many* Americans weren't fooled, but *most" were

[think]

54. Thank you. Apparently I didn't make myself clear

[PBass]

14. You must factor in the idea that Congress might want to give a President

whatever tools he needs in the interest of national security. If a president's hands are tied at home, it makes negotiations abroad much more limited.

We can see some of that playing out now, with Obama's request for AUMF against ISIS.

It is reasonable (outside of recent irrational partisanship in Congress) to want a sitting president to be empowered to act quickly in the interest of national security. Not just for the sake of a sitting president in the opposing party, but for the sake of future presidents in your own party.

"What tools would I need, if I were the president in this situation?". I believe questions like this are logical and responsible for a Senator to ask themselves. Unfortunately, Bush used his war powers vote illogically and irresponsibly. The extent of Bush's irresponsibility was not predictable (otherwise we would have seen massive anti-war demonstrations as the authorization issue was still being debated).

[yallerdawg]

24. Shit!

A sane reasonable voice.

That is exactly how I remember it. Authorization to go to war if Hussein didn't finally allow UN inspectors in. That is what Hillary said.

Not in the land of 'anyone but.'

[Art_from_Ark]

46. UN inspectors were already in Iraq

and they weren't finding anything. Bush told them to get out.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-17-inspectors-iraq_x.htm

[yallerdawg]

56. I can't wait for that version of history to come out.

They weren't finding anything, so Bush told them to get out?

Now, the Iraq war resolution was meant to get Hussein to cooperate fully with UN inspections, or seriously risk invasion like before. Hussein had years of non-compliance. We had to show him we were deadly serious about the consequences.

What Bush then did was unprecedented. And we have been paying for it since.

And this was all Hillary's fault?

[think]

59. Bernie was smart enough to understand what he voted against.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=115&v=NdFw1btbkLM

[yallerdawg]

63. And smart enough to know it wouldn't make any difference.

Just like Hillary.

But Hillary represented New York City. Was she hearing the same thing Bernie did?

[think]

68. So you'd rather have someone go along with a war they know is wrong than be a leader?

Last edited Fri May 8, 2015, 08:14 AM - Edit history (1)

[gratuitous]

48. "The extent of Bush's irresponsibility was not predictable"

Except for some dirty fucking hippies, who knew all along, but who listens to them? They're not the Very Serious People who get a hearing in our popular media. And if any of them sneak onto the electric teevee machine, they're whisked off toot frickin' sweet, like Phil Donahue.

[Art_from_Ark]

52. Yup

They didn't want anyone trying to stop the catapulting of the propaganda.

[TM99]

53. Bullshit.

We, the people, and our elected representatives had 3 years and the 'selection' of him as President in 2000 to know fully damn well how 'irresponsible' the man and his administration were going to be.

And frankly that is a bullshit word to use as well. We knew that Bush and his administration were full of PNAC advisers and cabinet members. We knew their agenda. We knew they were going to plan for war the moment he took office. All they needed was a sufficient enough reason to be able to sell the American people and their narcissistic representatives.

There is no excuse she can give to undo her politically motivated vote. And I will also note that it took Hillary R. Clinton over 10 years before she admitted that she "got it wrong" That and now this statement that it was 'probably the hardest choice' are not an apology or an admission of responsible. She did not learn from her mistake as is evidenced by her tenure at State. She admits her 'wrongness' only when it is time for a damned election.

[PBass]

60. I thought she did a great job as Secretary of State

Also:

"She admits her 'wrongness' only when it is time for a damned election. "

June 2014 was when her book was released.

If you think everything Hillary Clinton does is cynical and cold/calculating, then you can find problems with anything she says --- even an admission that she made a big mistake, and that she agrees with your assessment.

[TM99]

62. Anyone who has followed the Clintons

from Arkansas forward knows that Hillary Clinton is definitely cold & calculating when it comes to political power.

Her book was a forerunner to her 2016 campaign.

She had a mediocre tenure at State but showed us quite enough to see that she is in agreement with the Neo-Conservative agenda on the War of Terror. Therefore, she is being disingenuous in her pseudo apology a decade after the vote.

[PBass]

21. Yes she has...

Hillary Clinton on Iraq vote: ‘I still got it wrong. Plain and simple.’

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/06/05/hillary-clinton-on-iraq-vote-i-still-got-it-wrong-plain-and-simple/

[Rosa Luxemburg]

26. but she didn't have to vote that way?

at the time it was political suicide not to go along with the frenzy after 9/11 when most people rallied around Bush. Only those with spines voted against the war in Iraq. I think that Hillary will be a great president but I think that she may be influenced by the chicken hawks.

[PBass]

36. Actually, that is my biggest fear about Hillary as well...

that she may be too ready to use military force, in order to prove that she's "tough" (George H.W. Bush was the same - they called him a wimp, and he invaded Iraq shortly afterwards).

The point of this thread is the off-hand dismissals of Hillary's vote, which lack nuance and therefore (IMO) lower the discussion to a bunch of sloganeering. Yes, "nuance". Kind of necessary for a rational discussion of politics.

[KG]

27. I lulz'd

[daleanime]

33. Which she continues to make....

when is force not her answer?

[Jackpine Radical]

35. Let's review some original data to shed a bit of light here.

[yallerdawg]

39. Exactly as I remembered it.

"She voted for war" is duplicitous bullshit.

There is just so much more going on here than justifies a dismissive 'she got it wrong.'

Good post, JR!

[Jackpine Radical]

51. I'm no Hillary fan, and find her entirely too hawkish, but

I think it's essential to get back to the original data and take our arguments from there. My commitment is to facts first.

[PBass]

42. I watched the video - thanks - and found it completely reasonable. (NT)

[PoliticAverse]

37. For those that don't remember, here is her speech on the Senate floor...

[yallerdawg]

41. Good post Part 2!

"A closed mind is a bar to any argument."

[Fumesucker]

38. The stereotype is easy because it fits so well

Hillary has to throw a small country against the well every now and then because she's a liberal woman and everyone from Putin to Kim Jong-un to the penguins in Antarctica is going to give her shit if she doesn't act like God's own asshole with a humongous stick.

[PBass]

44. I do agree, Hillary proving her "toughness" is something we need to be wary of.

This thread is just about the automatic dismissal of her Iraq vote. It was a lot more nuanced of a situation than many people seem to remember.

[Art_from_Ark]

47. There was nothing "nuanced" about it

It was total bullshit from the very start, with the propaganda being catapulted by two oilmen who cheated their way into the White House. For the 12 years between the end of the first Iraq war and the beginning of the second one, Iraq had been the most surveilled, the most sanctioned, the most bombed country in the world. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Iraq to have developed anywhere near the military capacity that would enable it to launch weapons of mass destruction against the UK, much less against the US.

[PBass]

55. I prefer to refer to Clinton's comments in the above Youtube video

rather than your rather simplistic version of events. The resolution only gave President Bush the option to use force, it did not mandate force.

I remember everything quite well. I was against the resolution too, and I appreciate your outrage. What I object to is the flat-out dismissal of the difficulty of that vote. Because yes, it WAS a nuanced situation (sorry if that is problematic for you).

Lots of people made the same mistake, including John Edwards (oh, how DU loved him though!) and John Kerry (less so, but similar).

[Art_from_Ark]

67. I prefer to refer to the comments of these Senators who voted against the IWR

Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Chafee (R-RI)
Conrad (D-ND)
Corzine (D-NJ)
Dayton (D-MN)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (D-FL)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wellstone (D-MN)
Wyden (D-OR)

They knew that was bullshit when they heard it, as did the majority of Democrats in the House.

[Fumesucker]

64. Nobody could do nuance like Dubya

[whatchamacallit]

57. She's a foaming hawk

[CanadaexPat]

66. Personal anguish is not exculpatory.

[CharlotteVale]

69. Hardest decision=Pure political expediency

[sendero]

70. Blah blah blah...

..... I don't believe her for a SECOND.

Anyone who bought ANY of Bush's lies about yellowcake and mushroom clouds is a fucking moron and shouldn't be managing a Dairy Queen much less the country.

She knew it was all bullshit, almost everyone did - she was politically unable to go against the mood of the country.

[polichick]

71. It shouldn't have been a difficult decision - millions saw the con easily.