What did Hillary think after Senator Byrd gave this speech?

[Bonobo]

One of the most impassioned and moving speeches I have ever seen given in the Senate chambers.

If you have not seen it or have not watched it recently, please do so. It is a reminder that for some, the vote to go to war was not done so frivolously, the lives of those later to be taken not dismissed so easily, the interpretation not so nuanced as some now say it was.

[Renew Deal]

1. You should write her a letter and ask.

[Bonobo]

2. I doubt I would get a response worth the time, Mr. Renew. (or is it Mr. Deal)?

[Renew Deal]

3. I guess it would be Lord

Lord Deal

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. I like Real Deal

[daleanime]

7. Small typo, you got an "r".....

instead of a "a".


Sorry, can't resist.

[Ken Burch]

29. Should we address you as "Your Dealership"?

[Renew Deal]

30. lol

[BeanMusical]

103. Lol, good one!

[Jamastiene]

101. Having the gutter mind that I have, my first thought

in this name game was Wener Deal. Lord Deal is good, lol.

[AuntPatsy]

4. From day 2 after my shock wore off and I learned my family members were safe, I knew..

Sometimes it is not a win to know you were right all along

[wyldwolf]

5. or Vice President Biden or Sec. of State Kerry?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. If he took the bo off the end of his name it would be cool.../NT

[moondust]

70. Political calculation.

My *guess* is that anybody with potential future White House aspirations could not afford to look "weak on defense." That's what Republicans had been branding Democrats back during the "peace dividend" years of flat defense spending after the Cold War. If Hillary, Biden, Kerry, and others had voted "no" on the IWR and WMD were subsequently found in Iraq--game over.

Of course that doesn't excuse them for being catastrophically wrong. They should have known better, especially Hillary with the private counsel of her husband who was getting full intelligence briefings only a couple years prior. Makes me wonder how much he really knew when he was President.

K/R for Senator Byrd, RIP.

[Autumn]

9. I watched that with tears running down my face.

We knew, they, the ones who voted yes had to have known.

[Bonobo]

10. That's the most awful thing. I think they DID know.

I think -and this is horrible - that the politics outweighed the humanity.

And THAT is why I cannot vote for her.

[winter is coming]

81. I think they all knew, which is horrible, but if they didn't, they still get no slack from me.

It was obvious a major PR campaign was underway to get us into Iraq. That alone should have been enough to make them dig their heels in and say, "Not so fast. Let's take a close look at this and then decide if invading would fix more problems than it would solve."

[yallerdawg]

11. "...done so frivolously...lives dismissed so easily...not so nuanced..."

See, that's where you lose me.

You have created a fiction, and express it as some kind of closed-door known fact.

Didn't Hillary express her own doubt? Didn't she talk about how dissenters are often right in history? Didn't she say how difficult a vote this was for her, and how she weighed what she had been told, and what her constituents wanted?

But your mind is made up, your verdict is in.

We should revere the wisdom of former Klan leader Robert Byrd. And forgive Hillary nothing!

[Bonobo]

12. It is a fiction to you. For many of us, it is an eye-opening truth.

And yes, Byrd was right. If others had followed his impassioned plea, the lives of many would have been saved. And by many, I mean in the hundreds of thousands or millions. That is not something lightly dismissed, nor does it deserve comparison to a vote on tort reform for gun manufacturers.

[TM99]

13. Roberty Byrd actually matured and changed.

Clinton has not. She is doing the same thing she has always done which is to calculate the response her vote or words will get with the end goal of being President always in the back of her mind.

Hell she is a female version of Francis Underwood!

[Ken Burch]

32. She has never actually admitted she was wrong to back the IWR.

People we are supposed to forgive are supposed to ask for forgiveness.

[JDPriestly]

67. Assuming your post is true, my questions about Hillary's

vote on the Iraq war have to do with her judgment and her moral strength.

And that vote does raise difficult questions.

[yallerdawg]

94. Hillary's complete speech.

Not the spin!

[JDPriestly]

96. If you have the time, could you please send these

to me with a message to my Inbox. I don't have the time to watch them now, but I want to watch them.

[hrmjustin]

14. It was a good speech.

[MaggieD]

15. So you don't think the Bushies lied?

Is that right?

[Bonobo]

16. No, I think they were the most disgusting of all liars, thank you.

Hillary and the Dems were supposed to protect us from the consequence of their obvious lies.

[MaggieD]

17. So you're mad she believed them?

Even though she represented the state that suffered the worst of 9/11? And you don't accept the apology she made 7 years ago and many times since?

[Bonobo]

18. Please show me her apology and tell me if you think it was sufficient.

I don't even think it was an apology to be really honest.

BTW, even then, no one linked it to 9/11 credibly. It was a WOMD thing.

[MaggieD]

20. You should read her books

She talks a lot about her vote in the last one. Easy to find passages and quotes via Google.

I think like 72-76% of the public supported the war. And yes, they certainly did tie it to 9/11.

Now I wasn't one of the people that believed it, but I had inside info.

[Bonobo]

22. You're wrong. Even the Bush Administration never said Iraq was behind 9/11.

Go back and take a look. You will not find any direct claim of that.

I repeat. It was all about the claim of Weapons of Mass Destruction.

[yallerdawg]

35. So Hussein's reps...

never met with Al Qaeda in Germany like the Bush administration said? And the Bush administration never linked Iraq to Al Qaeda?

Like I remember it. And it says here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_Al-Qaeda

[Bonobo]

40. That was the only claimed link and it was a small one indeed.

Small, I say, with comparison to the REAL way the war was sold.

It was not fundamentally about 9/11.

[MannyGoldstein]

26. I keep reading that Clinton apologized

but have never seen an apology - only an admission of doing the wrong thing.

[yallerdawg]

39. "Hard Choices" by Hillary Clinton

"Many Senators came to wish they had voted against the resolution [authorizing the Iraq War in 2002]. I was one of them. As the war dragged on, with every letter I sent to a family in New York who had lost a son or daughter, a father or mother, my mistake became more painful.

I thought I had acted in good faith and made the best decision I could with the information I had. And I wasn't alone in getting it wrong. But I still got it wrong. Plain and simple."

Source: Hard Choices, by Hillary Clinton, CBS pre-release excerpts , Jun 6, 2014

[Bonobo]

41. Would you describe that as an "apology"? I wouldn't. nt

[McCamy Taylor]

78. Yes, it is an apology.

[reddread]

42. she did

she was very sorry we left Iraq.

[BrotherIvan]

19. I'll say this, though I know you weren't asking me

The world was watching what she--probably the most famous Democrat at the time, and as you said, the Senator from NY--would do. If she had stood up and taken a stand and said, "There is NO evidence that Iraq was part of 9/11 so I cannot in good conscience vote for this resolution," I would crawl over broken glass for her.

Yes, she was in a terrible spot, that is the cost of being in a powerful position. She did not have the courage to stand up and do the right thing and was complicit in the death of at least 500,000 people. She may have been vilified at the time, but she would have done the right and moral thing, and so now, less than a decade later, she would have been hailed as a hero and carried on our shoulders to the White House. We expect our leaders, especially a Democrat, to be able to withstand a time of crisis and lead in the direction that is best for the country. If she couldn't then how can she convince us that she can now?

[MaggieD]

21. I think she really believed the bullshit

And that's definitely something to think about when deciding who you support. No argument there.

[Bonobo]

25. There was no claim made about 9/11, so the NY thing doesn't really matter. nt

[JDPriestly]

82. After spending eight years in the White House, she

believed that Iraq had enough to do with Al Qaeda to be involved in 9/11???

I find that hard to believe.

[Bonobo]

23. Yes, it was the lack of courage. The lack of convictions.

The political considerations.

[MannyGoldstein]

27. Half the New York Congressional delegation voted against the infernal thing

Clinton blew off reading the National Intelligence Estimate, which indicated that there was no real evidence of Iraq working on WMD.

[MaggieD]

28. So says whitewater reporter Jeff Gerth

Yeah, that's compelling.

[MannyGoldstein]

31. Can you clarify your statement, please?

Are you claiming that what I wrote isn't documented fact? Or that I'm Jeff Gerth?

[MaggieD]

36. You're clearly parroting Jeff Gerth

He's the one that made the claim you're repeating. Did you believe all the stuff he wrote about the fake Whitewater scandal too? Why not get his two cents on Benghazi while you're at it?

[MannyGoldstein]

44. Which point is untrue?

Thanks.

[MaggieD]

45. Which point IS true?

It comes from Jeff Gerth, so probably none of it. You should consider your sources more carefully, IMO.

[MannyGoldstein]

49. Why do I waste my time on this?

NY had 20 members of Congress besides Clinton. 10 voted for war, 10 voted against.

Do you dispute that?

[MaggieD]

51. Why do you believe Jeff Gerth

In his claim that she did not read the NIE?

[MannyGoldstein]

58. So just to make sure we agree here,

You claimed that everything I wrote was BS, but now you agreee that what I wrote about the NY congressional delegation is true.

Yes?

Once in agreement, we can move your next complaint.

[MaggieD]

60. Here is what you wrote:

"Clinton blew off reading the National Intelligence Estimate, which indicated that there was no real evidence of Iraq working on WMD."

That's the entire body of your post.

So again, why do you believe Jeff Gerth?

[MannyGoldstein]

62. Does the title of the post

not count for some reason!?

Tell us, what does that title say?

[MaggieD]

66. So what?

Half voted for it, half voted against it.

I'm interested in the content of the post, wherein you parrot Jeff Gerth. Or did you actually not realize he is the one that started that bullshit story?

[MannyGoldstein]

69. LOL.

So what if you're totally, utterly, and absolutely wrong?

Wow.

[MaggieD]

71. But I'm not

Jeff Gerth published that in a book. But it's bullshit. Just like his Whitewater crap.

[MannyGoldstein]

77. He published my post title?

Now that's a weird thing to claim.

[MaggieD]

79. Will you be inadvertently quoting....

Ann Coulter for your next act?

[MannyGoldstein]

84. These are facts, corroborated by government records

Are you thinking that people reading this can't search the Internet?

[MaggieD]

86. So says Jeff Gerth - chief whitewater fake scandal reporter.

[MannyGoldstein]

87. Let's call it a draw

[Jamastiene]

109. Lol!

[merrily]

63. Hillary and Obama said the same.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/mar/03/barack-obama/when-a-briefing-isnt-as-good-as-a-book/

Heaven forbid, for a matter like a war, that she would have read what people had written when they had time to reflect and polish, and THEN questioned them.

[MannyGoldstein]

65. Thanks for stealing the big reveal from me

What is it with these people? They claim that math and facts are simply invented propaganda. Reminds me of... oh no...

[merrily]

74. I hope you're not expecting an apology.

Apparently, I'm the worst person on this board--except when you are. If either of us apologizes to each other, our reputations will be shot to hell.

[Jamastiene]

108. Lol!

[merrily]

102. Another link

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/22634967/ns/meet_the_press/t/meet-press-transcript-jan/#.VUxKbZOvwTs

[MaggieD]

85. Wow, that was smooth

You found an article that uses Jeff Gerth as its source. LOL!

Thanks for proving me right about the source of that canard.

[merrily]

88. You can find many articles quoting Hillary and Obama on this topic. Were you asleep 2007-08?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/19/AR2007031902165.html

[MaggieD]

91. Yeah, and they all point back to....

Fake Whitewater scandal reporter, Jeff Gerth. He is the original source for that canard, and every single person he said that about said its bullshit.

Man, the right wing has really done a number on liberals in this country. Now they've got them parroting their right wing talking points.

[merrily]

92. Um, no.

[MaggieD]

97. Um yes

And this is one of my major issues with the HRC bashing crowd. Many of you don't know or care if what you're saying is true, or even realize when you're just repeating a right wing talking point.

Essentially what that crowd is doing is giving a free assist to the Republican Party in tearing down the Democratic Party.

[merrily]

99. Your claim is false. Give it a rest already. Some of us actually remember the 2008 primary.

For those, like you, who apparently do not ("forgetting" being the most charitable view of your claims about this).

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/22634967/ns/meet_the_press/t/meet-press-transcript-jan/#.VUxKbZOvwTs

There's not been a single denial, either.

Your penchant for endless repetition of the same non issue is both tedious and very telling

Moving on to other threads now.

[JDPriestly]

75. Think of the 3000 service men who died in Iraq and

all the Iraqis who died and the mess that Iraq is in now. Saddam was a horrible man, but the war was the biggest foreign policy blunder the US has made since unseating Mossadegh in Iran. Horrible mistake.

Bush II was impatient and did not weigh the risks of the war before committing troops. Hillary did the same thing.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Bush knew that. Hillary should have. There is no excuse for the deaths of 3000 loyal American servicemen, no excuse for what happened in Iraq. None whatsoever. And Hillary had been in the White House for the eight years preceding 9/11. If she did not know the truth, she of all people should have demanded to know it. She would have been able to find it out.

I question her integrity and her willingness to do what is right when faced with very difficult choices. Sorry to offend the Hillary supporters, but I grew up with people who tried to do the right thing.

Hillary could have turned the tide on the Iraq War thing, but she did not have the courage to ask the necessary questions. She did not have the complete commitment to truth that we need in a president.

I'm sure Bernie has also made mistakes, but somehow I doubt that any were quite like the Iraq War.

[KingCharlemagne]

112. The most charitable thing one can say about Hillary is that she is the biggest chump in

the country's political history.

I have my doubts whether said chump-dom qualifies her for POTUS. But the country did elect and re-elect Reagan. So there's that.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

119. Trying to conflate 9/11 with the Iraq war is the domain of lying and/or stupid Republicans.

We didn't accept it then from those fucks, and I'm not about to start accepting that pile of shit now.

[dreamnightwind]

24. Of course they lied

They were known liars. I knew who they were, so I'm sure others did too. It was madness to write essentiallly a blank check for unlimited warfare to liars like GHW Bush and his team of neocons. The supposition that Hillary and other Dems who voted Yes were fooled iis not credibe.

The PNAC plan, "Rebuilding America's Defenses", came out in 2000. It could not have been more clear what their intentions were.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Here's an oldie but goodie:
Does Hillary Clinton support the neoconservative manifesto the Project for the New American Century?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6218968

[MaggieD]

33. And this is why....

Democratic politicians marginalize the extreme left. HRC nor any other elected Democrats nor the DLC was part of PNAC.

SMH.

[dreamnightwind]

93. No, it's why real Democrats should not support Hillary

I know she was not a signatory to PNAC, I made no such assertion, nice try at misdirection though.

Do you mean to tell me she was unaware of the PNAC regime change agenda? If only she had connections to somebody in power, or was somebody in a position of power herself. She and her husband absolutely knew about the PNAC agenda. She knew, and you can't convince me otherwise, because it isn't true.

Knowing that, the burden of proof for any assertions by the Neocons should have been incredibly high. It wasn't, because ??? Certainly not because of ignorance, which is basically the best possible excuse that could be made for her position.

And yes, I believe there are connections between PNAC and the DLC.

I was marching in the streets with literally hundreds of thousands of others (just in our march here in SF) when Hillary cast her vote. Now I'm supposed to vote for someone who betrayed that effort, leading to the catastrophic destabilization of the Middle East, probably a million Iraqi deaths, thousands of U.S. soldiers killed, countless more permanently wounded either physically or psychically, and it's me that should be marginalized.

Have a nice evening.

[MaggieD]

100. Real Democrats brought you....

Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIPS, ACA, marriage equality, environmental and consumer protections, worker protection and rights, constant pressure on the minimum wage, unemployment benefits, Civil rights, voting rights, a shit ton of awesome federal and USSC justices, among other things.

Now what has the far left accomplished that even comes close to that?

[dreamnightwind]

104. Makes no sense

What you are calling the "far left" are not real Democrats? I assure you, the left was behind most of those things. You are way off topic, and seem desperate.

[MaggieD]

106. How can I think of them as Democrats?

They ignore the real enemy and spend day in and day out here bashing Democrats. That's what they do in real life too. And they accomplish nothing of any import.

[dreamnightwind]

110. That sums up what I think of going back and forth with you about this

Accomplishing nothing of any import. Done.

[TM99]

120. How old are you?

I ask this seriously because I would like to even know if you were an adult in the 1990's. How much actual history have you studied?

You make claims that are not factually accurate, so it does make me wonder.

PNAC began in 1997 and dissolved in 2006. During those years, they directly influenced foreign policy both under the Bush administration but yes, also under the the last term of the Clinton administration.

While the Clintons are not signatory members of PNAC (and no one has ever said they were so drop that straw man please!), they have both been influenced greatly by their policies and positions. PNAC signatories wrote letters to both President Clinton and GOP membes of congress to push for regime change in Iraq. Clinton signed HR4655 The Iraq Liberation Act into law in 1998. Not only did PNAC promote regime change, they championed their main foreign policy agenda which is summed up simply as military intervention over diplomatic intervention. Period.

So, yes, both of the Clintons were well aware of the PNAC positions as early as 1998. By signing the ILA in 1998, Clinton gave support to their position. Numerous members of PNAC were made cabinet members of GW Bush upon his selection. So to claim that Clinton did not have all of the information or did not agree with the Iraq regime change being pushed in 2002/2003 is a bald faced lie. She had known for almost 5 years exactly what Bush and his administration intended.

Clinton's tenure at State showed us that she is hawkish and closer in agreement with PNAC (henceforth called what they are which is neo-con) policies than even Obama, who sadly has been far more hawkish than his campaign promised he would be. This was evidenced during her tenure at State particularly on the Syrian situation and her disagreements with Obama in seeking diplomatic solutions with Iran over the nuclear question. She began to publicly break from him with her memoirs and interviews leading up to her 2016 candidacy announcement.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/08/10/hillary-clinton-splits-with-obama-on-foreign-policy/

On working and partnering with Obama in Iraq - something that was floated by the Obama administration - Clinton said in July that she was "not prepared" to work with Iran.

"I am not prepared to say that we go in with Iran right now, until we have a better idea what we're getting ourselves into," Clinton said during a CNN town hall.

By her own admission she is far closer to the Republican and neo-con hawish military first position than she is a liberal progressive diplomacy first position.

There is no extreme left position. Even Obama voted against Iraq regime change. He decidedly became more neo-con after taking office but his anti-war position was hardly 'extreme left' and was a major part of the Hope & Change that his base elected him on fulfilling.

[longship]

34. Thanks for the Byrd speech.

It was a great one. A prescient one.

No comment on HRC. I am yet not taking a political stand on the 2016 election. It is too damned early to do so.

R& for the Byrd speech, though. I hope everybody watches it.

On the other hand, if you meant this OP only as an attack on a Democratic presidential candidate I would remind folks that lowering an opponent does absolutely nothing to raise your preferred candidate. I would hope, after decades of fighting mean-spirited GOP politics, that DUers would understand that.

That is why I have not and will not endorse a Democratic 2016 candidate here, nor malign one, until one is nominated. Then, they will have my unbridled support.

Too many petty, childish posts here. It is nearly 18 fucking months until the election. Some here need to stop acting like two year olds.

Work for your candidate. Advocate for your candidate. But it is still a fucking year and a half until the fucking election! So stop panicking just because somebody else is running and might be perceived as the default winner or inevitable loser!

This childishness is worrisome.

Relax. Take a breath! Somebody else running is not a threat. It is an opportunity. Unlike the GOP, the Democratic Party does not employ clown cars. Embrace it.

Thanks for allowing my rant.

[kentuck]

37. I remember that speech.

It was very well received on DU at that time, as I recall?

[Bonobo]

43. Times change. nt

[marym625]

47. I think many of those people

Are gone. Some on their own volition, some by design.

[Art_from_Ark]

52. And many have passed away

[marym625]

53. That sucks.

I am sorry

[Samantha]

38. She thought if she wanted to run for President in the future

she absolutely could not afford to be seen as a female who would be unwilling -- read "too weak" -- to go to war.

We had a lot of hot and heavy conversations here over that vote. I remember saying anyone who voted for that authorization would not get my vote in any future elections. Many others joined me.

Kerry eventually did apologize for this vote; Hillary has not (to my knowledge).

For the Bush company, it was all about oil; for many others it was simply the politically expedient thing to do.

Sam

[marym625]

50. I don't know if she actually apologized

But she did say she regrets it with a slew of excuses

We all knew that Bush and his cronies were lying. She didn't just vote yes, she gave an impassioned speech as to why we had to go to war.

I voted for Kerry. I did it because he apologized and I didn't want to not vote for the Democrat. However, never again. But in this election I don't have to worry about it. Sanders will be the democratic nominee

[Bonobo]

54. Here is her speech urging people to vote yes. Very strong!!

[marym625]

57. Thanks

But I can't watch it again. Saw it recently. Makes me sick. It did then too. This is when I lost all respect for her

[yallerdawg]

72. Here is a very much abridged and edited version of her speech.

"Urging people to vote yes?"

You should just get to say that as if fact?

I guess you're betting no one will watch the little video.

[Bonobo]

90. Really? You don't think the speech is by definition intended to encourage people to vote with her?

Weird.

[marym625]

46. I loved this

And I miss him.

The contrast between this and the HC speech is like night and day.

Thank you for posting it

[merrily]

48. Think? PNAC, The DLC and the Progressive Policy Institute wanted the invasion.

Address to the Nation on the Invasion of Iraq (January 16, 1991)



George H. W. Bush


Just 2 hours ago, allied air forces began an attack on military targets in Iraq and Kuwait. These attacks continue as I speak. Ground forces are not engaged.

This conflict started August 2d when the dictator of Iraq invaded a small and helpless neighbor. Kuwait—a member of the Arab League and a member of the United Nations—was crushed; its people, brutalized. Five months ago, Saddam Hussein started this cruel war against Kuwait. Tonight, the battle has been joined.

much more at:

http://www.millercenter.org/president/speeches/speech-3428

transcript: President Clinton explains Iraq strike

CLINTON: Good evening.

Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.

much more at:

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

more at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026211673



Senate vote on 2002 AUMF at:

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/107-2002/s237



House vote on 2002 AUMF at:

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/107/hjres114

10:16 P.M. EST

THE PRESIDENT: My fellow citizens, at this hour, American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger.


On my orders, coalition forces have begun striking selected targets of military importance to undermine Saddam Hussein's ability to wage war. These are opening stages of what will be a broad and concerted campaign. More than 35 countries are giving crucial support -- from the use of naval and air bases, to help with intelligence and logistics, to the deployment of combat units. Every nation in this coalition has chosen to bear the duty and share the honor of serving in our common defense.

more at http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-17.html

See also http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6211673

[MaggieD]

55. I thought conspiracy theories were off limits here

What happened to that rule?

[merrily]

56. If you think you see a violation of TOS, you are, of course, free to alert.

You know the old saying: "Money talks, bs walks," "money" in this case being a metaphor for an alert, not baseless insinuation.

That post and the post I linked within it are easily among the best documented I've seen on DU in a long time.

[MaggieD]

61. It's in a stickie at the top of the group

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025307978

Have you read it?

[merrily]

64. I already responded to your "point." See Reply 56. Rephrasing it doesn't help you.

[MaggieD]

68. I'm just letting you know...

It's not a TOS violation. It's just a rule about this particular group. It lists the group you can use for CT. You didn't seem to get that.

[merrily]

76. Yawn. Pardon me. Make that alert if you think a well documented post violates ANY board rule.

See Reply 56.

[MaggieD]

80. Nah, I'm not the alerter type

Just thought you might need a refresher on the group rules.

[theboss]

59. What do you we got? 13? 14 months of this ahead of us?

Good times. Good times.

[McCamy Taylor]

73. Byrd? BYRD? Are you kidding? I see you a Byrd and raise you a KKK recruiter...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan_members_in_United_States_politics

If you can forgive Byrd for having been a KKK member and organizer then I can forgive Clinton for Iraq vote.

West Virginia's Democratic United States Senator Robert C. Byrd was a recruiter for the Klan while in his 20s and 30s, rising to the title of Kleagle and Exalted Cyclops of his local chapter. After leaving the group, Byrd spoke in favor of the Klan during his early political career. Though he claimed to have left the organization in 1943, Byrd wrote a letter in 1946 to the group's Imperial Wizard stating "The Klan is needed today as never before, and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia." Byrd defended the Klan in his 1958 U.S. Senate campaign when he was 41 years old.[9]

Despite being the only Senator to vote against both African American U.S. Supreme Court nominees (liberal Thurgood Marshall and conservative Clarence Thomas) and filibustering the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Byrd has since said joining the Klan was his "greatest mistake." The NAACP gave him a 100% rating on their issues during the 108th Congress.[10] However, in a 2001 incident Byrd repeatedly used the phrase "white niggers" on a national television broadcast.[1

I have to assume that this thread was meant to be satirical. As far as I know, Byrd is the ONLY ex-KKKer to vote against the war resolution.

[merrily]

83. Who am I to "forgive" a war vote? Is Byrd even running for President this season?

Posthumously, perhaps?

Nice how you threw him under the bus for no reason other than his sound opposition to the Iraq invasion, though. Good grief.

[Bonobo]

89. I'll just let your ad hominem against his position to stand.

It's fucking sad, though.

It's like you choose how to view his speech based on your read of who he is as a person and condemn it. Then you go on and forgive Hillary's monumental blunder (if I am being generous) based on how you view her as a person.

Nope, that is not how to do politics or life.

[BainsBane]

98. It's hardly an ad hominem

You are focusing on a vote Clinton made 12 years ago about the Iraq war, yet you refuse to recognize the problem of using a former Grand Dragon (or was it Kugel?) from the Klan to bring up someone else's history? You call it an ad hominem because you don't see being in the Klan as nearly as problematic as Clinton's war vote.

You want to use someone with a pretty ugly past to attack someone else's bad behavior. You therefore own your choice of an example. Your response above shows you simply do not care. Klan, a mere distraction from what really matters, keeping Clinton from becoming President. Did you use this speech against Kerry? Did you carry out a similar campaign against Kerry in 2004, just shortly after the Iraq vote? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing this outrage is quite selective, as your umbrage at having Byrd's past pointed out demonstrates.

[Bonobo]

107. It is the very definition of an ad hominem.

She is attacking Senator Byrd as a person in order to invalidate what he said.

That is the definition of an ad hominem.

[BainsBane]

113. You are using one politician with a sketchy past to attack another's past record

Naturally you don't want it pointed out that he was in the Klan because it interrupts your narrative of Clinton as the source of all evil on planet earth. You aren't going to vote for her. Point made. Why people can't just make their choices and move on, I have no idea. At this point it's all about clubbing one another over the head over their particular views of different members of the political elite, like it even matters. Sanders will transform America! He supports foodstamps! Clinton will destroy America. She voted for Iraq! She has friends on Wall Street!. It's all a substitute for refusing to think about actual issues or do anything about the problem. Arguing with all six people who don't despise Clinton amounts to nothing. It does nothing about campaign finance, about the corruption of money on our political system. What money has done is expose the relationship between capital and state. It has worsened the problem but hasn't fundamentally changed it, since the purpose of the capitalist state is to serve capital, and it has been since the inception of the Republic.

You all kept Clinton out of office eight years ago. Did corruption disappear? Inequality evaporate? Money no longer figured into politics? Of course not, and if you keep her out this time it will amount to F. all. They are politicians. That's it. Nothing more. They certainly aren't worth getting exercised about. While you are all engaged in this charade, money increases its power over politics, and people do nothing to bring about public financing, which is the only thing that will change any of this one iota. Moreover, you all don't want it to change. You celebrate Sanders' ability to raise money. You all don't have problems with capital. The defense of the corporate gun lobby shows that. You are angry at Wall Street because they did you dirty. You don't challenge the system. You perpetuate it by focusing on the charade that that a different individual will transform America, when basic civics should tell you that is impossible, even if you hadn't just watched Obama spent eight years impeded from implementing most of what he wanted due to opposition from congress. Yet you pretend that will suddenly disappear with a new president? It's ludicrous.

[Bonobo]

114. Byrd's past has nothing at all to do with Hillary Clinton and she is the subject of this criticism

since she is running for POTUS. Neither Byrd's past nor my (alleged) hypocrisy have anything at all to do with whether or not her vote on the Iraq war resolution shows her to be a worthy of the position.

[BainsBane]

95. It's always the first thing I think of when I see him

But don't bring up stuff that doesn't matter, like equal rights. That's just not cool.

[freshwest]

111. Yes, we must all sit down now. And... n/t

[PoliticAverse]

118. Yeah Byrd, who Clinton called “friend and mentor”+“a man of unsurpassing eloquence and nobility.”

[Luminous Animal]

105. She voted for war. Ick. At least a million dead.

[lovemydog]

115. I too opposed that war at the time of that vote.

Thank you for sharing this powerful video Bonobo.

[leftofcool]

116. Are you kidding me??????????

It's Mr KKK himself!

[Bonobo]

117. Losthiscool? nt