Kentucky ‘free range’ family loses custody of 10 kids over apparent ‘unschooling’

[Liberal_in_LA]

Kentucky “off-grid” family had their 10 children seized this week by authorities, and their supporters say they were targeted “simply because the government disagrees with their lifestyle and their educational choices.”

An anonymous tip sent sheriff’s deputies Wednesday to the 26-acre rural Breckenridge County home of Joe and Nicole Naugler, who document their “back to basics” lifestyle on social media.

--

Investigators attempted to question the teens away from their mother, and she was arrested for disorderly conduct and resisting arrest when deputies said she interfered.

“I am a free range human, not meant to be caged,” Nicole Naugler said. “But I will stand up for my rights.”

Authorities ordered Joe Naugler to hand over all the children Thursday morning or face felony charges, and the family believes they were removed due to their “unschooling.”

The Nauglers follow the so-called unschooling method that allows children to learn through natural experiences – including play, household chores, travel, and personal courses of study.


http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/kentucky-free-range-family-loses-custody-of-10-kids-over-apparent-unschooling/





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3074746/Surrounded-garbage-kept-school-neighbors-threatened-knives-s-just-free-range-parenting-claim-parents-blast-authorities-seizing-10-kids.html

[yeoman6987]

1. I hate to see parents lose their kids. Yep even republicans

But in this case a breather might be worthwhile. The parents need some assistance with parenting and definitely need to convince them to get to school. They seem poor so maybe some assistance on life skills may be a benefit. I don't think this family is completely lost but some help is needed. Of course the Mom got the attention by putting the lifestyle on Facebook. A cry for help perhaps?

[MADem]

2. Those living conditions look, well, atrocious.

I'm waiting for that well-fed guy with the white beard and the unctuous voice to come out and ignore the suffering children while begging for money, just a few cents a day--less than the cost of a cup of coffeeeeee!!!!!!.... like he does on the tv commercials.

I think the parents need more than education--they may need medication. Who would, being of sound mind, allow children to remain in those circumstances when there are other options? There's a judgment issue here--at minimum!

It's one thing to live "off the grid" when you know what the hell you're doing. That looks like "shit camping." Who suffers? The kids.

[yeoman6987]

5. Totally agree with everything you typed.

Hopefully now something will be done. A group that lives off the grid could perhaps help then to do that correctly. The biggest thing though is get those kids in school. This isn't even homeschool. It's do what you want for school. Nobody under 18 (I guess 16 for GED) should get that decision.

[dixiegrrrrl]

16. Is that bunch of sticks with a tarp over them supposed to be where they live???

If so, they indeed have a problem.

The article says the tip to the cops came from someone who had a grudge against the father.
Interesting that some of the kids are in the their teens, which says authorities had not intervened for many many years.

[MADem]

54. Yes--it's a three walled lean-to.

Supposedly they put up a fourth wall where those sticks are in the winter, but that is where they live, with no running water, no septic--in reprehensible sanitary conditions.

Apparently it wasn't a "grudge"--the father had threatened to kill or harm the person who reported them. Stole water from the neighbor, who protested, whereupon he called her the good old "C" word (and we're not talking "curmudgeon.&quot .


They aren't playing with a full deck, I suspect. The "homeschooling community" (whatever that is) advises a jaundiced eye:

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2015/05/08/a-brief-word-of-caution-regarding-joe-and-nicole-naugler-the-off-grid-homeschooling-family/

Please know that there is so much more to know about the Nauglers than meets the eye in this case: allegations of theft, illegal transportation, fleeing the law, threatening neighbors with death, child neglect, and more. Homeschoolers and unschoolers that actually know the family are cautioning people that this family is troubled. HA blog partner Kathryn Brightbill is working on a summary of the situation that we will crosspost and share once it is complete. (It is complete! Read it here.) In the mean time, please exercise caution (and encourage your friends on social media to do so as well) before promoting their story and/or giving them money.

[Novara]

3. 10 kids? QUIT BREEDING

[MoonRiver]

4. Hey she's free range!

Probably doesn't want to be "constrained" by using birth control.

[Jamastiene]

8. We can't tell her that.

She'll be screaming about filthy dirty hippie abortionists who are trying to put her uterus in a cage if we say that.

[Ilsa]

42. I said "...give her uterus a rest..." on another

Thread about 12 sons plus a baby due and was attacked harshly enough that I hated DU for an hour. Just because I'm concerned about overpopulation and kids being miserable in large families.

Society has a vested interest in making certain children are educated beyond what these parents are offering. Looks to me like they are too lazy to do a formal curriculum and would rather lie around and fuck.

[Ms. Yertle]

46. Her body,

her choice.

Yeah, 10 or 12 kids is a LOT, but not all kids from huge families have a horrible childhood. Many of them think it's great. Especially when they are adults.

Me, I have one sister, and she is a bitch. I always wanted my parents to take in foster kids, so that I could experience having a real sibling.

As for their education, there doesn't need to be a formal curriculum in order for learning to occur. Those kids may be learning more than you would think.

[Ilsa]

60. I'm not going to support what they are doing.

Not this freewheeling form of "education". Like I said, society has an interest in seeing that kids are educated and can coexist beyond their family of origin.

As for her uterus, I don't propose legal limits but I think excessive childbearing is socially and environmentally irresponsible.

Here's a paragraph of what happened when the father was turned away from mooching off his neighbor's well:
"Naugler was turned down for the water request and asked to leave the property,” the summons read. “He then said to his son ‘get the pistol out of the glove compartment box.'”  Yeah, those kids are learning some shit alright.

[Ms. Yertle]

61. When my son entered kindergarten--

and this was more than 25 years ago--the first thing he had to do was draw a picture of himself. He drew a stick figure with a big smile, and a snake on one side of himself, and a volcano on the other. After nine months of conform-or-else, we'll-squelch-the-creativity-out-of-you public education, he had to draw himself again. This time he drew a more fleshed-out pic of himself wearing a striped sweater. The snake, the volcano, and the smile were all gone. At the time I said I missed the snake and the volcano. Now, I miss the smile more, and I deeply wish I had gone with my instincts to keep him home, homeschool him, and nurture the creativity that came so naturally.

[Ilsa]

63. This isn't merely about ABCs. There is also

Social behavior these kids are being exposed to with their parents mooching off neighbors and threatening them with their firearms. There is also the issue of sanitary living since they have no running water or septic system.

The I read about them, the more they look like lazy parents.

[Telcontar]

49. Your inner fascist is showing

What happened to choice?

[Mariana]

96. One can support choice

while at the same time criticizing the particular choices being made by an individual. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

[winter is coming]

6. I'm not finding any mention of this in the Lexington or Louisville papers. Hmm.

Did rawstory get this "story" from the Daily Mail?

[MADem]

59. Television is covering it.

http://www.kmov.com/story/29019229/off-grid-couple-faces-hearing-to-regain-custody-of-10-children

[Tree-Hugger]

99. No

The mother in this story runs a popular blog and webpage, in which she has detailed her accounts of this whole situation. They are being congratulated by their fans for fighting for liberty against the government.

[Brickbat]

7. This seems beyond the "free range" thing parents in the burbs are trying to do, but the kids here l

look happy and healthy to me.

[winter is coming]

9. I'm not sure this is a real thing. I went looking for local newspaper articles, to see whether

that structure is used as a "house" as opposed to being a shed, because all the pictures show us is a bunch of dirty but apparently healthy kids and a ramshackle structure that's purportedly their home. I didn't find any mention of this in the online versions of the Louisville or Lexington newspapers. Either I'm a bad searcher, the story's very fresh, or the story's a hoax.

[Liberal_in_LA]

14. real story. search under "nauglers"

[winter is coming]

41. Thanks. I tried "naugler" and didn't get anything.

[okaawhatever]

75. It said there were two tents for the family and a structure that housed the animals. It said the

structure was the largest of the three. They also had a generator and a deep freeze, but it wasn't clear if either were working. The Sheriff contacted the parents by phone so they at least have a phone.

[Mojorabbit]

31. They do! and all including the dogs seem to be well fed.

I would have to see more info before coming to any conclusions. If the photos are of their abode then I would change my mind in a heartbeat.

[avebury]

10. And the mother is pregnant - again

according to the attached article.

"'Numerous piles of garbage, broken glass and nails were also scattered about the property,' the report stated, and there was a pond 'that had no barrier around it to prevent the children from entering or falling in.' "

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3074746/Surrounded-garbage-kept-school-neighbors-threatened-knives-s-just-free-range-parenting-claim-parents-blast-authorities-seizing-10-kids.html#ixzz3ZfXmkV4u
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

You can live off the grid (even poor) and still make an effort to maintain a safe, clean abode. Apparently learning from chores did not include how to pick up after yourself. It sounds like they lived in a pig pen. I would doubt that any of the kids to develop the skills and/or education they would need to live a different type of lifestyle. And, down the road, I can't imagine may families wanting their kids to hook up with any of this batch of kids.

[dixiegrrrrl]

17. About that pond.....

you sure can tell the city slickers from the country folks.
There are thousands of rural places that have unfenced ponds.
Any kid that grew up outside a city knows about them, including me.
We called them fishing holes.

My folks let us kids go down to any number of rivers to play and to fish., along with the neighborhood kids, in many small towns I lived in.
It's called a normal childhood.
We rode bikes...with no helmets.
We roamed around the towns we lived in, our parents did not know exactly where we were, no did they worry.
We used to go the movies by ourselves!

My kids sometimes got very dirty playing outside, and I would hose them off before they came into the house for their bath (in summer, of course)

[avebury]

18. It is the piles of garbage, broken glass and nails around the property

that concerns me the most. There is nothing wrong with raising children to enjoy the outside and getting dirty is a part of that experience. It is a whole other thing to allow garbage to pile up. I would curious if their accumulation of garbage has (or will) contaminate their water source. Also, the garbage will attract wildlife and while they may shoot it, the wildlife may get one of the smaller kids first.

If I were the neighbor I would be pissed off at the father stealing water from the neighbor's property. I hardly see the parents as setting all that good examples for their kids. They are teaching them to steal (the water), to threaten people with violence (dad threatening to shoot the neighbor), the accumulation of garbage, broken glass and nails does not speak well of respecting your environment, and so on.

Take the kids out of the woods and into an urban environment and it would be interesting to see how they fare. While they are allowed to pick and choose what they learn I don't see how they are exposed to the tools they would need to achieve an actual education beyond the outdoor world. How can the parents claim that their children are able to achieve a typical type of education if those tools are not readily available to their kids? If any of them chose to go to college (or trade school) how do the parents expect them to qualify for entrance to any type of higher education? The kids are going to be way far behind the peers of their own ages. I think that most parents would not want their kids anywhere near this family.

Chores don't seem to be a learning experience given how trashed their property is.

Now this type of family would be loved by the far right Conservatives. The parents are raising their kids to be educationally ignorant, they are no threat to the 1%ers nor will they be likely to ever vote. It is part of the dumbing down of society.

[truegrit44]

24. I picked up on the non fenced pond myself.

After raising my kids in pretty rural places where everyone has ponds, creeks etc. I have never seen a pond fenced unless it was to keep the cattle out of it. My kids from young ages went to them fishing usually without much supervision. My kids got that dirty at times also and like you say in the summer I just took the hose to them in the evening before they came in.

If these folks live "off the grid" they sure seem to have internet access and apparently pc's? I wonder if the father works at a job or how do they buy diapers and other essentials...........welfare which would be a pretty tidy sum with 10 kids.

Interesting article tho

[Jesus Malverde]

67. We can't really look to England the ultimate nanny state for guidance on how to live...nt

[logosoco]

11. From these pictures, the kids look pretty happy and even healthy.

I did notice the baby looks to be wearing disposable diapers, which does not seem to echo a free range, simple back to the earth life style. This brings up questions about where are the diapers disposed of, and what about the rest of the "sewage"? They need to take care of these basic things if they want the kids to be running loose on the land. The mentions of garbage and glass throughout the property makes me wonder what are they teaching/showing the kids about land care?

I guess a human can live under those circumstances and be okay, but doesn't it get cold in Kentucky in the winter? And what do they do when it rains a lot? These pictures don't show the garden or animals I would think they would need to really support this large family.

I lost a lot of sympathy for them when it was mentioned that dad has been in trouble for writing bad checks and threatening people with a knife or a gun. If that is true, yeah, these kids do need someone to help them.

[avebury]

19. Don't forget Dad stealing water from the

neighbor as well.

[alphafemale]

12. This is not home schooling because I really doubt they are being educated at all.

I'd be shocked if any of them can even write their name.

Let alone read or do simple arithmetic.

I'd take away animals that were given living conditions that appalling.

[Paladin]

13. +1. Your comparison to animals is apt, I believe.

Like other "free range" parents, the welfare of those children seems to be coming in a distant second to the parents' social media exposure efforts. Poor kids.

[alphafemale]

25. This is not Free Range.

This is just not giving a flying fuck.

[Paladin]

43. Couldn't agree with you more. Genuine child abuse. (nt)

[Sgent]

15. But this is why

I support monitoring / testing home-schooled children. I know multiple families that decided to home school and never taught a thing.

[alphafemale]

27. Most parents would not be qualified to teach past 6th grade or so.

There is a reason teachers are college educated.

[LisaL]

20. It sounds to me that the kids aren't getting any formal schooling.

They seem to think real life experiences substitute for an education.

[alphafemale]

30. Real life experience is living in mud and stealing water from the neighbor.

The younger kids might have a chance if they get them out of there.

I doubt the older ones will ever be fluently literate.

[Ms. Yertle]

21. Look up John Holt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holt_%28educator%29

I have friends (both college graduates) who homeschooled their kids via Holt's philosophy. The idea was that you learned fractions by baking cookies--that sort of thing. The old girl taught herself to read at three years old. The second daughter didn't catch on to reading nearly that quickly, and in a public school she probably would have been labeled "learning disabled." But, in her own time she did learn.

Both girls entered Lutheran school at about 8th grade, and then went on to public high school, where they excelled. Both graduated from college.

I knew other homeschoolers at the time who didn't understand, or approve, of this family's methods, but today they are healthy, happy confident adults.

[alphafemale]

32. You think they are baking cookies?

And...

If you are an Ayn Rand fayn you are in the wrong place.

Enjoy your stay.

[spinbaby]

35. How does Ayn Rand enter into it

Are you thinking of John Galt?

[Ms. Yertle]

40. OMG!

I didn't realize that was what she was thinking of! LOL!!!

[alphafemale]

44. Yes. My mind did go to John Galt.

I still can not see any positives out of raising children in mud.

[jwirr]

56. Haven't you ever heard of mud pies? Many of us living in the rural areas have. I have pictures of

my two girls making mud pies where they are not all that clean when they get done. Also the little one with the tools - probably helping fix a car? All it takes when they are done playing is a bath. Now there is where this couple gets into trouble. They had to steal their water.

[treestar]

86. We had mud in the curbs

In the suburban neighborhood, while there was still construction going on. We'd make it into shapes. Of course there had to be somebody who fashioned a toilet seat and pooped mud into it.

[jwirr]

92. That is funny. Of course we are talking about a post where the kids were actually covering each

other with mud! I don't think I would have allowed my kids to do that but that is because they had to go through the house to get to the shower. These kids did not even have running water or any easy source of water.

[treestar]

93. Yeah with that in mind, it wasn't such a good idea

The problem here is the conditions, not so much the free range. They don't have running water, which would be a problem for anyone.

[jwirr]

94. It even sounds like they do not even have a well with a pump. I agree that the shack they are

living in is not well built and lacks a lot of sanitation needs. I also think since we have laws in our states that children need to be formally educated they need to go to school. In our state there are regulations governing home schooling and I am assuming that there are in Kentucky. But in today's world children need to attend a school if they want to get a job.

[Ms. Yertle]

37. *snort*

This was kind of a "hippie" thing to do--about as far from Ayn Rand as you can get. Yeah, they probably bake cookies. Big deal. Lots of people do. They are also--in case you missed it in my other reply--college graduates, which a whole lot of kids sitting in public school classrooms never will be.

Make snarky comments all you want, the truth is there is a lot to be said for people exploring alternative methods of educating their children, when public schools are often such abominable failures.

[alphafemale]

45. Learning how to steal water from your neighbor

And threatening them with a lethal weapon is a valuable life skill.

Go get MER gun Boy!

[Ms. Yertle]

47. "Look,

a SQUIRREL!!!"

Admit you were wrong about the John Holt thing.

[alphafemale]

50. I already did in this thread.

Try again.

[Ms. Yertle]

52. Sorry,

didn't see it before I posted.

[jwirr]

53. Holt's theory works IF you have someone who is actively working with the children to see what they

are supposed to learn. For instance learning math while cooking would include using a measuring cup and talking to a parent about what it means. Learning to read at three also requires a parents cooperation.

My daughter did not like to read to her children so she taught them both to read at 3 using a method similar to Holts.

I think any learning system works if you have active participation of an adult.

I am not sure that this family was following the model.

[Ms. Yertle]

57. Parental participation

is always an advantage.

We don't know that these parents aren't doing this, although giving each of 10 kids individual attention would be difficult. Maybe the older children over see some of it. Who knows? Thing is, until we hear from the kids, I don't think we should judge them, just based on their unorthodox education ideas.

[avebury]

22. Raw audio of mother's interaction with police

http://www.saveourfamily.info/update-raw-audio-of-incident-2/


She is pretty combative. The police had been there last year. It sounds like there have been issues with this family for a while. She recorded this incident and it is clear that there has to be some past history that is not factored in if you just take her audio and don't look at anything further.

When Dad threatened neighbor that had told told Joe that he was not welcome on the neighbor's property the Dad told one of the kids to to get the gun from the glove compartment of the car.

[elleng]

29. 'Interesting' comments,

includes one 'contacting Rand Paul.'

[avebury]

34. Any supporters of this family are fringe types to say the least. nt

[Tree-Hugger]

100. Yes

Lots of anti-government hysteria. She also noted in her recording that she would not call the police if she saw a child being abused. They live in extreme poverty, but will not get benefits for their kids, some of whom do not have birth certificates and social security numbers, because she doesn't want to be a "whore of the state "

I think this is way beyond the rights of a family to homeschool and make mud pies.

[Trillo]

23. It's somewhat interesting that social media

has become a way to get arrested, or have your kids removed.

The Internet showed so much promise in the early days, it was about sharing information for free. Now, free information has been locked up by copyright, it's a little difficult to make browsing advertising free and most-to-many sites seem primarily about advertising, and now with social media, which could have brought people together, instead it's 'say the wrong thing, you might get arrested,' while Free Speech allows the mass viewing of mass carnage on TV fiction.

In this case, the story asserts a complaint by an acquaintance was lodged due to a feud on social media.

Has the Internet devolved to simply be a way for the authorities, whether financial through advertising or legal through surveillance, to harass all-to-some of us in our lives?

[KittyWampus]

26. If they have no septic system and running water, it is totally unacceptable.

For their own health and the health of anyone they may come in contact with.

[leftofcool]

38. +1

[jwirr]

58. I am not supporting this family but think about what your statement would have meant to most of

the rural population during the Great Depression era. They would have all lost their children. I realize thing are different today. But the blanket statement condemns a lot of the population of the world even today.

[KittyWampus]

68. That was a CENTURY ago. There are foundations trying to bring water

to poverty stricken areas.

http://thewaterproject.org/

So you observation does point out how we are failing third world countries. And I appreciate that. It's good to be reminded.

There are traditional cultures that are still tied to the land in remote areas that this would be acceptable. Like indigenous people in Panama. The key words there are traditional and remote.

[jwirr]

70. I may not have said in your post that I realized times had changed. I think this family should have

been pushed into taking better care of their family long ago. I myself have been homeless in recent years - not now. I lived in a car and was not in much better condition than this family. The difference is that I did not have children.

I would really like to know what they think they are accomplishing. Not much IMO.

[Blue_In_AK]

79. Where I lived from birth to seven,

we had an outhouse and pumped water. We had a pump out in the yard and one in the kitchen sink. We had electricity, but my grandmother didn't. She also had an outhouse and pumped water. My mother would heat water on the stove and we would take baths in a big metal tub. Out little house was surrounded by cornfields. We had a cow, rabbits, chickens and grew most of our food. We played in the mud.

I never felt that our life was "totally unacceptable." We were happy and healthy.


I don't know this family's situation, of course, but just because a family lacks modern amenities doesn't make their lifestyle "unacceptable."

[KittyWampus]

80. When I was a kid, we had cars without seat belts. I didn't feel it was unsafe.

diseases like dysentery and typhoid fever and hookworm were more common back when outhouses were common.

[LiberalElite]

28. Looks like Little House on the Prairie meets

Lord of the Flies.

[AuntPatsy]

33. An audition for TLC new line up come fall?

[leftofcool]

39. Doomsday Preppers Meet Off The Griders.

[avebury]

36. Off-grid' couple faces hearing to regain custody of 10 children

Nicole and Joe Naugler are facing charges in a case that has prompted an outcry on social media from supporters of their family's “off-the-grid” lifestyle.

Neighbor Travis Metcalf isn't buying it.

“They're living underneath tarps,” he said. “So kinda take it at that.”

===

They delivered a baby up there last winter,” Metcalf said. “It was about 30 degrees below zero; it's no living conditions for a kid at all.”

The children do not attend formal schools. Postings allude to a “free-schooling” approach in which parents provide “life lessons” to each child at his or her own pace.

The Nauglers have depended upon neighbors' private wells or municipal hookups for their drinking water, but a confrontation on Sunday prompted a criminal summons for Joe Naugler on a charge of menacing.


“(Naugler) was turned down for the water request and asked to leave the property,” the summons read. “He then said to his son ‘get the pistol out of the glove compartment box.'”

WAVE 3 News has withheld the complainant's name at her request.

“He (Naugler) was acting very erratically,” the complainant said in an interview Friday. “He was calling us names that I have to spell out. I can't even say 'em. And he said ‘don't worry, I know where you live, and I'm gonna be back.'”


http://www.wbtv.com/story/29019229/off-grid-couple-faces-hearing-to-regain-custody-of-10-children

[True Blue Door]

48. "Unschooling"...uhh, no. That's just fucking stupid.

They look like a happy and loving family, but certain information and skills need to be conveyed to a child for basic parental responsibility to be fulfilled. Society reached this eminently rational consensus a long time ago, and it remains obvious.

"Unschooling" sounds, at least at face value, like libertarian hokum.

[Ms. Yertle]

62. It's the John Holt method

See the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holt_%28educator%29

NOT to be confused with John Galt. Please.

[True Blue Door]

65. There's no denying the value of free learning. But...

How many children would honestly choose to sit down and memorize times tables and vocabulary so they could learn new material rather than something requiring less discipline?

A nerd like me might have, but practically no one else I grew up with. They would have "studied" skateboard magazines and MTV, and wouldn't ever learn anything that couldn't be found in such media.

And one of the most basic foundations of a society is having a common core of knowledge (yes, that's the origin of the term "Common Core" - society needs to have a common core to be a society).

Before public schooling, people were not better at life, or citizenship, or anything than they are now. There were far fewer opportunities. People in general were functionally illiterate.

Clearly these parents were just operating on some silly ideology rather than rational decision-making.

[Ms. Yertle]

69. You can learn a lot of physics

from skateboarding.

The thing is, true learning isn't about memorizing anything. It is more about understanding the principles. We probably all know MORE than we realize.

I can't speak for these parents, and I acknowledge that you could be right. I just think there is more than one way to educate a child. And I seriously applaud anyone who thinks outside the box.

[True Blue Door]

71. No, you can't learn physics watching skateboarding.

Physics is a set of abstract principles requiring the ability to understand and manipulate equations. Unless a kid is the equal of Isaac Newton, he or she is not going to just deduce the laws of physics from "natural experience."

A normal person has to focus and hack away at the subject to develop an understanding of it - there's no "learn by doing" with physics unless the "doing" part is writing equations and working them, which is impractical unless you've learned enough by solving structured problems.

The reason I find this "unschooling" idea ludicrous is that it sounds like learning can be had without effort, guidance, or disciplined behavior of any kind, and that's just not how it works.

Math is not fun to a lot of people, but it's necessary nonetheless. Some people don't find language fun, but they need to be able to communicate effectively. And sometimes children have no interest whatsoever in learning, and what then? Pretend they can get away with that in life without being economically and socially crippled?

It sounds like libertarianism because they treat lack of structure as a magic solution that creates good results because somehow human reason is a less perfect reflection of our interests than mere instinct. That's not merely wrong, it's counter-factual. It's the opposite of all history.

[Ms. Yertle]

72. Children learn

all the time. Children learn through play, without even realizing they are doing it. (Actually, adults do, too.)

I never realized that I imposed my love for the English language on my children, but my son told me tonight that he scored in the 99th percentile for language on the GMAT, and he credits me for that!

He learned to speak and write correctly, just by whatever modeling I did.

A lot of time is wasted in the classroom, taking care of extaneous business. Dedicated and knowledgeable parents can teach their children everything they would learn in a classroom in much less time than children spend in school.

Math is a necessary skill, but kids can learn that without memorizing, but just by understanding the concepts.

[True Blue Door]

84. The whole of humankind tried an experiment in "natural learning."

It was called every single year since the beginning of time until the advent of public education. It was a grim result whose ultimate conclusion was "Let's have public education."

[Psephos]

76. So, you want others to follow your prescriptions for academic learning...

...because that's the path you followed. But that's a one-way street, right? You can tell others how to live, but will you brook the opposite?

No, math is not necessary...for most. Just for some.

There are vast realms and forms of intelligence beyond the narrow strictures of academia, with more real-world impact than any thousand universities.

Physics is best comprehended by a fairly elite few with genetic talents in the kind of thinking required. As is music composition. As is professional golf. As is poetry. As is sculpture. As is public speaking. And on and on and on. Why on Earth do we push chemistry, physics, and analytical geometry on people ill-suited to it? That "knowledge" evaporates a week after the end of the semester for those not naturally adept at it. One course costs a thousand dollars or two. You "need" many courses. End result for most: nada.

The "college path" is sold as the gateway to success to a majority of our people, while only a minority are actually suited to it. They end up with a "degree" (mostly a certificate of attendance these days), and then the State sics fright-monger collection agencies on them to cough up payments on their $100K student loans while they live unemployed in their parents' basement.

No thank you. Fuck that Big Lie. You said we can't "pretend they can get away with that in life without being economically and socially crippled?" What could be more crippling to a young adult than to have a mortgage payment but no house? To be stripped off dignity and spirit by the realization that you are the ward of the elite, who literally treat you like a milk cow? To realize after that monstrous expense of time and money you haven't yet acquired the kinds of real-life skills that have proven themselves across millennia of human generations?

Those kids look physically and emotionally better off than a lot of poor and urban kids supposedly taken care of by the State. Nothing academic about that reality.

[treestar]

85. That's interesting

These three books detailed the foundational ideas of Holt's philosophy of education. He held that the primary reason children did not learn in schools was fear: fear of getting the wrong answers, fear of being ridiculed by the teacher and classmates, fear of not being good enough. He maintained that this was made worse by children being forced to study things that they were not necessarily interested in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holt_%28educator%29

My teacher relatives are against homeschooling because they think the socialization is necessary. I grew up in an era when popularity with one's peers was more important than academics. (along with sports, which made you popular). Other people are not always so essential. Certainly we have to work with them as adults or play with them as children. But learning is in the end solitary - some things just are.

[Ms. Yertle]

87. Socialization

My homeschooler friends used to tell me that school is the only situation where people are completely segregated by age, and that homeschooled kids were generally more comfortable around people of all ages--older, younger, adults, as well as kids.

Homeschoolers tend to form their own groups to do field trips or specialized learning days, so they are getting socialization, just among like-minded individuals. Good in some ways, not so good in others.

In a lot of places homeschooled kids are allowed to participate on local school athletic teams. There are also community sports teams--soccer, swim, probably others--so they can socialize in those situations as well as learn the sports and have some competition.

In one other response I told about my son who was a kindergartener at the time drawing himself on the first day of school. He was a stick figure with a big smile on his face, and standing between a snake and a volcano. When he drew himself on the last day of that year the smile, the snake, and the volcano were all gone. I felt like he was learning to suppress his wonderful imagination. If I had to do it all over again, I would have homeschooled.

[polly7]

51. I want to scoop up and cuddle that baby!

I believe everyone has the right to live off the grid, but this is just a bit too much - that sleeping bench at the back of the shack accommodates all of them?? How can they be comfortable? And as much as they may be disenchanted themselves with formal, or even informal schooling - these kids are all eventually going to leave home and need at least some skills if they have a hope at all of making it.

This might have worked 50 or more years ago, but as much as they may be trying for what they think is a good environment to raise children- with no water, the garbage accumulating, lack of protection from the weather - I can't see how they believe they're not chancing their health. Maybe they did need this wake up call and can get some help. I guess, sometimes, when people live in this kind of condition for a long time, they can't see how it's harmful. I hope the family is reunited at some point soon with a healthy place to call home, whatever it may be.

[uppityperson]

55. I bet those kids are learning all sorts of things. There are ways to do this that do not endanger

those doing it, have known people doing something along this line. I'm not very impressed with the living situation here, would be interested in seeing more.

[WillowTree]

64. Do we live in a great age or what?

These days a person can be so far "off the grid" that their abode has porous walls and a tarp for a roof and still have a Facebook page. Kinda boggles the mind, if you think about it.

[betsuni]

66. Mormon libertarians

Looked at their blog. They used to have a real cabin. Wonder why they decided this sort of shack was better.

[Ms. Yertle]

73. It probably isn't

where they live. The photog for the article was going for shock value. I'm willing to bet this is an outbuilding of some sort.

[betsuni]

77. Yes, it is. Pictures on Facebook of them building it and calls it their cabin.

They apparently returned the prefab cabin they had and built this one in August 2014. She says the walls are plywood and asks if anyone has any materials they want to donate to help them finish it. Doubt if they actually spent the winter there, though. Maybe the prefab cabin is somewhere else.

[Tree-Hugger]

101. I think they lost it

There are reports (there is a link upthread) that the father lost his job and they lost their shack. Supposedly, they are in a mountain of debt. I sympathize with that, but they refuse the state benefits that could get their kids medical care and more food.

[vankuria]

74. I don't care much what happens to the parents

but I do hope the kids are placed in good foster homes and spoiled a lot. Since this is the only life they've ever known, they'll have a lot of adjusting, but I bet they may like living in a warm, dry place, with modern conveniences, toys, warm meals, etc. And maybe even school and activities will be something they could enjoy.

[Scootaloo]

78. The kids actually seem pretty healthy

One surprising thing... all that dirt, in the woods, with two dogs, and not a single flea bite on the baby. And my, isn't it a chunky little thing.

Main issue - aside from the squatting and threats by the parents of course - is that... they simply seem to not know what they're doing, as far as 'roughing it" goes. It does indeed look more like a really long and kind of shit camping trip, rather than actual homesteading.

[betsuni]

81. My favorite part is that the mother is a dog groomer.

So her canine customers get nice hot baths and blow-dried fur styles, while back at the camp... Obviously there are no adults in charge here.

[bullwinkle428]

82. "The Duggars" meets "Lord of the Flies"

[beam me up scottie]

83. *

[avebury]

88. Family did not always live off the grid.

I was poking around the internet reading what I could find out about this family. They have had issues with Child Protective Services for quite a while, long before this current incident. There is one website that someone who knew them was posting what has really been going on with this family. It sounds like whenever they don't go they way they want them to go they pack up and move. They had borrowed some type of shack with a compost potty and I can't remember why they gave it up and then the whole family was living out of a vehicle when it was too cold to live outside. Both parents supposedly didn't actually have jobs.

The family have been stealing drinking water from the neighbors or the municipality. They obtained donated materials to try to build some type of shelter for the family. And the Dad has started a Go Fund ME account to collect money from anyone who agrees with them that they are victims of the system. It sounds like this is a family of grifters or cult who don't take responsibility for their own actions, are looking for others to finance their lifestyle and it becomes a good question as to exactly what are they teaching these kids.

On the audio, the sheriff asked the mother if they have weapons and would they use them on the authorities. The mother would not state that they would not fire on the authorities. They have all the makings of a Ruby Ridge, cult or at least the grifter version of the Duggar family. There is a real potential that things might not end well in the long run. If you listen to the audio the mother made with the sheriff, the sheriff remains calm while the mother totally loses it. Just listening to her would make me concerned about the safety of any authority figures that go out there (and I am not pro law enforcement). Remember the beltway shooter several years ago where the adult had the kid shooting people? I don't think that the risk is just from the parents but could also come from the children who could totally be brainwashed by their parents.

[avebury]

89. From Nicole Naugler's Facebook Page

From Mother's Face Book page on May 5, 2015:

https://www.facebook.com/HomesteadMomma/posts/1442247856085452?hc_location=ufi

So as long as you don't beat your child.... to death..... you're okay

‪#‎Godsaid‬
Proverbs 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish them with the rod, they...
biblehub.com

========

From May 7, 2015:

As far as needs, a few friends are handling the donations. I know we have legal fees. And tomorrow we will know what if any requirements the cabin will need.

===

From May 8, 2015

Janice Schmittou and Cheri Hodge.

They are asking I get birth cert and SSN for the children that don't have them.

Feed me info. I am under the impression it's not legally required.

=====

https://www.facebook.com/HomesteadMomma?fref=nf

[randome]

90. Idiots. Anyone who needs a 'system' to be a parent should never be one.

Much less breed like rabbits.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[Sunlei]

91. must be a sea of mud when it rains. The children seem happy but the older boys look embarrassed

[odd_duck]

95. Wonder how they stay warm in the winter?

[JCMach1]

97. More basic than school... how about proper shelter...

so yeah, WINTER!

[Liberal_in_LA]

98. update: 38k raised for the couple

http://www.gofundme.com/tz4xng