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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHave you read Seymour Hersh's article contradicting the Obama WH version of bin Laden's killing?
here's the very long article:
The Killing of Osama bin Laden - Seymour M. Hersh
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden
excerpts:
One lie that has endured is that the Seals had to fight their way to their target. Only two Seals have made any public statement: No Easy Day, a first-hand account of the raid by Matt Bissonnette, was published in September 2012; and two years later Rob ONeill was interviewed by Fox News. Both men had resigned from the navy; both had fired at bin Laden. Their accounts contradicted each other on many details, but their stories generally supported the White House version, especially when it came to the need to kill or be killed as the Seals fought their way to bin Laden. ONeill even told Fox News that he and his fellow Seals thought We were going to die. The more we trained on it, the more we realised this is going to be a one-way mission.
But the retired official told me that in their initial debriefings the Seals made no mention of a firefight, or indeed of any opposition. The drama and danger portrayed by Bissonnette and ONeill met a deep-seated need, the retired official said: Seals cannot live with the fact that they killed bin Laden totally unopposed, and so there has to be an account of their courage in the face of danger. The guys are going to sit around the bar and say it was an easy day? Thats not going to happen.
(...)
Five days after the raid the Pentagon press corps was provided with a series of videotapes that were said by US officials to have been taken from a large collection the Seals had removed from the compound, along with as many as 15 computers. Snippets from one of the videos showed a solitary bin Laden looking wan and wrapped in a blanket, watching what appeared to be a video of himself on television. An unnamed official told reporters that the raid produced a treasure trove the single largest collection of senior terrorist materials ever, which would provide vital insights into al-Qaidas plans. The official said the material showed that bin Laden remained an active leader in al-Qaida, providing strategic, operational and tactical instructions to the group He was far from a figurehead and continued to direct even tactical details of the groups management and to encourage plotting from what was described as a command-and-control centre in Abbottabad. He was an active player, making the recent operation even more essential for our nations security, the official said. The information was so vital, he added, that the administration was setting up an inter-agency task force to process it: He was not simply someone who was penning al-Qaida strategy. He was throwing operational ideas out there and he was also specifically directing other al-Qaida members.
These claims were fabrications: there wasnt much activity for bin Laden to exercise command and control over. The retired intelligence official said that the CIAs internal reporting shows that since bin Laden moved to Abbottabad in 2006 only a handful of terrorist attacks could be linked to the remnants of bin Ladens al-Qaida. We were told at first, the retired official said, that the Seals produced garbage bags of stuff and that the community is generating daily intelligence reports out of this stuff. And then we were told that the community is gathering everything together and needs to translate it. But nothing has come of it. Every single thing they have created turns out not to be true. Its a great hoax like the Piltdown man. The retired official said that most of the materials from Abbottabad were turned over to the US by the Pakistanis, who later razed the building. The ISI took responsibility for the wives and children of bin Laden, none of whom was made available to the US for questioning.
Why create the treasure trove story? the retired official said. The White House had to give the impression that bin Laden was still operationally important. Otherwise, why kill him? A cover story was created that there was a network of couriers coming and going with memory sticks and instructions. All to show that bin Laden remained important.
read more: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden
I want to say that I very much like and appreciate Seymour Hersh's writing; especially on the Bush administration. I may well have a bias favoring the Obama administration (although I've strongly opposed their military foreign policy and disputed their accounts and reasoning on MANY occasions over his presidency), but I find Hersh's account incredible. If true, there's a major hoax that's been perpetrated by President Obama on down in his administration and military which deserves much more than mere rebuke; if true, it deserves an investigation and Congressional censure of some sort for the lies Hersh is claiming occurred.
That said, I also find that much of his account looks based on unnamed sources and so much of his and others conjecture that much of it reads like fiction. Example of this are similar to the passages I highlighted in bold above.
I would like to hear what folks here think. I'm in absolutely no position to refute Seymour Hersh's account in his article and I'm not going to set myself up as a defender of his story, or that of the administration. I'll only say that it reads like a fantastical version of events which I'm certain will get a great deal of pushback by the administration, and, likely, the President. That's understandable, because Hersh makes Barack Obama, as well as members of the military and military leadership, look like utter frauds.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)but pretty much everything else they said about it was pure bullshit.
I wouldn't be even a little bit surprised if the bin Laden story was similarly spiced-up.
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)Hersh is off on this one.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)telling the truth here.
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...his sources must be 'telling the truth.'
I don't have any reason to doubt Hersh's veracity, but you have to admit he's making some explosive charges, which, at this point, aren't currently beyond contradiction. He'll certainly benefit from whatever credibility he gained with other reports (even I acknowledge my own admiration for his reporting), but this is stunning in it's detailed accusations - many of them attributed to the 'retired official' and other unnamed sources.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)to re-read the entire LRB story again, but it seems to pass the smell test.
Two choices: either Obama and his team have fibbed in a major way or Hersh is perpetrating a reportorial fraud on his readership. I have not heard any outright denial or refutation of Hersh's allegations, only that the WH refused to comment.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)From 2005
http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/16/hersh.iran/
From 2007
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/10/2/seymour_hersh_white_house_intensifying_plans
From 2008
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2008/07/31/26940/cheney-proposal-for-iran-war/
From 2011
http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-opinion-section/133-133/6152-seymour-hersh-iran-could-be-iraq-redux
Vattel
(9,289 posts)He released information indicating that an attack was being seriously considered, but he didn't say that an attack would occur. I didn't read the links in there entirety, though, so please tell me if I missed something.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Last edited Mon May 11, 2015, 10:34 AM - Edit history (1)
supplying a set of unexplicated links does not an effective refutation make. Shall we, say, discuss the 2005 CNN link first? What say you?
Orsino
(37,428 posts)He may be right on that score, but just premature. I guess this is good reading, but I'm not sure his theses could ever be proven.
mrdmk
(2,943 posts)There are contingency war plans drawn up by the Pentagon for every country on the earth.
The story was about people in power wanting to use these plans.
No more, no less...
Orsino
(37,428 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)part of a plan, appears to be correct. Obama's recent efforts TO AVOID using Military Force in Iran, but rather to use diplomacy, has been VILIFIED by the same neocons, including their partner in crime, Netanyahu, proving that there has been an ongoing battle to STOP them from going to war with Iran.
Clearly there was opposition even within the Bush/Cheney administration to do this. And Hersh has always had sources within the MIC who most likely were feeding him information from within the administration.
Do you doubt that Bush/Cheney/Netanyahu and the rest of the warmongers were NOT trying to start a war in Iran?
Even without Hersh's reporting WE knew that was their ultimate, insane, goal.
That they failed shows that the resistance was coming from some powerful opposition, my guess is the older Bush who bad as he may be, is nowhere nearly as crazy as Cheney and his cohorts.
And Hersh's reporting no doubt HELPED those who were trying to stop them.
In fact there were reports that Bush Jr split with Cheney on the Iran issue, causing a rift between them.
If there is any one reason I am glad that Obama is president at this time, it is because had Romney won, Hersh's predictions are very likely to have come true by now.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)Allow me to rip this scab open again.
In 1996 my closest relative died in the Khobar Towers bombing.
One of two officers stationed one too many times in this temporary measure enabled by GHWB after "Desert Storm"
the best explanation of which was circulated at the time by the sort of hardnosed reporters vilified these days-
bin laden had the faucet shut off on his funding back then. With the promise that no more attacks would occur on Saudi soil,
he was back in grace enough to continue raising money for whatever future hijinks he had in store.
After the Saudi's beheaded any material witnesses before FBI and other US interrogators could work their magic,
the official explanation turned towards those pesky Iranians.
NONE of this doing the slightest thing to achieve actual closure or pursuit of justice for the perpetrators of a horrible event.
Now, the larger fish on our side of the pond refute that official story, as they should.
yet still, no closure. no justice.
dead or alive, bin laden means less than the US government's willingness to LIE about things like this.
That is what is truly dead today. Truth and Justice.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)That said, when was the last time Hersh named a source?
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...I guess I really shouldn't expect him to.
Some evidence of his claims would be helpful. Maybe his story will be publicly corroborated by someone.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)will be push back. David Remick has consistently asserted that he knows each of the
names of the sources that Hersch relies on yet there has been that criticism of his
work before.
Thanks for posting, this won't be the end of it, I imagine.
okaawhatever
(9,461 posts)From what I read, both versions are somewhat correct. I don't remember the exact details, but basically they thought they were going in undetected and then at the last minute (when they were almost on the house) a dog barked, or someone saw them, and then the people inside woke up and started to fight.
I didn't read too much past that because it seemed kind of conspiracy theorish.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)It's sad to see how low Sy Hersh has sunk.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)not that it was shot out of the sky in a firefight. ???
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)That strains credulity.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)I just did, stayed away from all the tin hat sites, so all I got was the official explanation. Time, Bloomberg, and the wikipedia page on the raid all presented it the essentially the same way, no mention of power lines, so on that point, my bad.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-05-05/commando-black-hawk-downed-by-air-vortex-not-mechanics-in-bin-laden-raid
According to two U.S. officials, who praised the skill of the pilot, the chopper lost the lift necessary to hover because it entered a vortex condition. At least two factors were at play -- hotter than expected air temperature and the compounds 18-foot-high walls, they said.
The wall blocked rotor blade downwash from moving down and away as it normally would. This caused disturbed airflow to move in a circular, upward and then downward path back through the top of the rotor, causing insufficient lift for the aircraft.
So no mention of power lines. I don't claim the official story is necessarily what happened, I have no particular reason to doubt it though.
You think the helicopter was brought down by opposing forces? Because that, to me, would be the only relevant issue in this discussion, since we're talking about whether they embellished their account with stories of having to shoot their way in there.
brush
(53,764 posts)and they had to leave it behind on the property.
My problem with this is I've never heard of a silent helicopter.
They are loud as hell flying at altitude. Just think how loud 3 helicopters or 4, however many the seals came in, would be to the people in the buildings there as they landed just outside?
You know the people in the compound were awakened by all that noise, and very likely moved to defend themselves.
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)billhicks76
(5,082 posts)He's an investigative journalist. That's his job.
elfin
(6,262 posts)If they, like so many adrenalin stoked males have embellished their stories - No matter to me. We ask so much of these people, not fully understanding (or perhaps truly caring about?) the psychological and physical effects of their training and their missions required by their superiors.
I hate war. I hate what it does to those killed and maimed and displaced and even what it does to the killers. However, I wept tears of joy when Osama was eradicated. So they can rewrite the mission all they want as long as Bin Laden's death was true.
Hersh is going after the wrong story IMO, and I don't understand why it matters to him. Warriors ALWAYS inflate their deeds. Always. Not news.
reddread
(6,896 posts)his crimes remain unsolved, and the behavior of our government in covering them up with various FALSE stories meant to secure support for illegal actions, war crimes and justice undone?
you definitely dont care.
elfin
(6,262 posts)However, in a sense, we were all "victims" of that horrible event and its aftermath. So I am a geezer and have seen so many injustices by others and even by us -- and I am OK with my sentiments that stray from liberal pure ideals in this case. So be it.
reddread
(6,896 posts)you do not want to know the difference between being an actual, unwilling victim of terror, and
being a self proclaimed also ran.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)violation of those quaint and obsolete Geneva Conventions.
Whatevs. We can't bitch anymore when our enemies do the same to the remains of U.S. soldiers KIA.
reddread
(6,896 posts)and then put them in greater danger than ever by their insensate actions.
of course, if you are simply interested in stoking fires, it all makes
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)and I certainly am not going to lament his being killed.
Sure, it's possible they lied about a firefight (though I don't think not mentioning one is evidence it didn't occur) or the intelligence materials. It actually doesn't make sense that he would still be active given how many people were looking for him. None of that changes my view that he needed to go. A public trial would not have been good, and he had ordered enough Americans killed that his death was IMO entirely justified.
I have trouble believing there wasn't a firefight because they had no reason to shoot others at the compound, like Bin Laden's wives. Why would anyone imagine that Bin Laden would go without resistance? I can believe he himself wasn't armed, but he certainly had security.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
Hersch has always been an interesting and controversial reporter, to his credit IMO.
This story inspired me to dig up a blast from Hersch's past:
Seymour Hersh: "Executive Assassination Ring" Answered to Cheney, Had No Congressional Oversight
http://www.alternet.org/story/131153/seymour_hersh%3A_%22executive_assassination_ring%22_answered_to_cheney,_had_no_congressional_oversight
That was Hersch, probably saying too much, in a Q & A during a U. of Minnesota talk.
He wrote about the JSOC team in this article:
Preparing the Battlefield - The Bush Administration steps up its secret moves against Iran.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/07/07/preparing-the-battlefield?printable=true
He's one of the greatest reporters of his generation, and is not afraid to stick his neck out, admirable. I had always hoped for an investigation into the JSOC allegations, they included Hersch remarks about how these people were Dominionists who carried out their agenda without answering to anyone, though he felt that they had answered to Cheney when W. was in the White House. I believe this is still the case.
I think guys like W. and Obama are used by these forces more than the other way around. I doubt the POTUS has much interest in digging into or questioning the operations of groups like this, high risk low reward to the POTUS. It sucks, though, we have for a long time had a democratic Republic which exercises little to no oversight over forces acting with impunity with agendas the American people neither are aware of nor are asked to approve, and it doesn't seem to change a whole with elections. That is a real problem.
Sorry to go a little off topic, it's something I have always thought needed more light shined on it.
Hersch from the New Yorker artice:
""Under President Bushs authority, theyve been going into countries, not talking to the ambassador or the CIA station chief, and finding people on a list and executing them and leaving. Thats been going on, in the name of all of us.
"Its complicated because the guys doing it are not murderers, and yet they are committing what we would normally call murder. Its a very complicated issue. Because they are young men that went into the Special Forces. The Delta Forces youve heard about. Navy Seal teams. Highly specialized."
The Bin Laden raid was clearly done under orders from the Obama administration, so my tin foil rant is not on point, some of the same forces involved though and the same reporter looking into it.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)OF COURSE Seal's would love to have been unopposed, that would be a testament to what SEALS do. Sneak in undetected, take out a target. That sounds way more awesome the what actually happened, alerted combatants, crashed a helicopter. Second, there would be no reason to lie, all anyone cared about was eliminating Bin Laden.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)It's called politics. If you read the article you would see that. And it's all very inconsequential though yes. Doesn't change much except give one an understanding about politics.
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)most wars are simply varied degrees of (deadly) stagecraft.
Mr.Bill
(24,280 posts)that there are certain things our military forces do that we will not be told the details of. Maybe our grandchildren will, but not us.
And guess what, along those same lines, we will never get to read all the emails of a certain Secretary of State, either.
Secrecy is a necessary component of some military and state department actions and always will be.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)He's an egomaniac with a talent for writing fiction masquerading as fact.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Avalux
(35,015 posts)The details however....Seymour plays favorites.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)He needs to think he's relevant. I wouldn't be surprised if curveball popped up somewhere in the story. Who knows if all of these sources are accurate.
reddread
(6,896 posts)take a look at that vile piece of crap "Veil"
says everything you need to know about Woodward,
and how you can compare them instead of contrasting eludes me.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)From the 2005-2009 wars with Iran to his whitewashing of Assad's use of poison has against civilian areas, he's shown himself to be a sucker for iffy sources and prone to make assumptions and claims he can't back up.
randome
(34,845 posts)A whole bunch of innuendo here. He said/she said. And all the wars with Iran we've undertaken.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]
UTUSN
(70,680 posts)Hobo
(757 posts)As far a Mr. Hersch goes even a broken clock is correct twice day. This story has got so many holes in it, Un-sourced, Retired? C'mon folks really? Give me a name(s). Also, Mr. Source(s), grow some and come out and say it in public. Heck, Snowden even had the guts to name himself.
Honestly, I would really love it, if, as according to Hersch there wasn't any resistance, that OBL was sound asleep, or even kneeling in prayer when the last thing that crossed his mind was that bullet from an M4. That fucker deserved everything he had coming. I hope the seals threw his body out of the helicopter over the mountains so that the animals would devour it, that is what he deserved.
I can't believe that the OP really suggests Congressional hearings on the way the Military offed OBL...... boo hoo poor OBL didn't deserve to die like that. Let me tell you something.....yes he did. A bad guy is gone, and people here are whining? So the administration has polished it up? Big deal. At least they got him unlike others..........
Hobo
Flame away!!!!
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...I don't think our president should be allowed to lie about military operations for his political self-aggrandizement. I don't care how worthy the mission. I'm not convinced he did that, based on this article, but if what Hersh described is true, the public and Congress has been mislead in no trivial manner. I happen to doubt this account, mostly because there's nothing except his sources' word as evidence presented here. Maybe someone will now step forward with more...I don't know. Based on this, though, it's just a good story (bro).
I will say this...what most folks here used to care about (before we had a Democratic president to defend) was that our government was open and honest about the exercise of our military. I think that line of principle has been blurred during this presidency using 'trust' of this president as a hedge against accusations of excess and dishonesty.
That said, I don't find I have any sympathy at all for bin Laden, or much concern how he was killed. That something which I'm certain is a moral failure, but one I think I can live with.
What I do have a problem with - and this goes for all of our military assaults across sovereign borders - is that there must be an adherence to international law and practice in the use of our military which is consistent with how we expect other nations to act. I don't know if that standard was upheld in this instance (again, I don't know if I much care), but that's certainly something I think is a legitimate subject for Congress to judge and address.
Making that judgment and determining accountability in the use of military force is made even more difficult when our President and our military is less than truthful about their exercise of force. I don't think anyone should be sanguine about that, no matter how we may feel, personally, about individual operations.
randome
(34,845 posts)Because maybe, someone, somewhere, may not be telling the entire truth.
Let's see some evidence, okay? If Hersh is simply going to publish gossip columns now, he should have the guts to identify it as such.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Where do uncaptured mouse clicks go?[/center][/font][hr]
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...wasting my time.
randome
(34,845 posts)You clearly want to worry about something that can never be proven. I'm not the only one in this thread who has 'misunderstood' you.
Seems like a waste of time to me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"Everybody is just on their feet screaming 'Kill Kill Kill'! This is hockey Conservative values!"[/center][/font][hr]
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...you characterize my explanation of why Congress would be concerned 'if it was true' as something other than stating what is their responsibility. I clearly say, repeatedly, that I don't believe his account and I've gone as far as to call it fantastical. Maybe you need a dictionary.
Rex
(65,616 posts)bullshit to it? I don't know if I buy that, I don't think a SEAL team has to brag to anyone about their job. I think someone has seen to many movies.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)So they are in no shape to detail the crimes of the national security state.
Hersh remains one of the few brave enough to try and lift the rock to expose the vermin.
mythology
(9,527 posts)It relies on too many unbelievable claims. For example, the idea that Saudi Arabia was funding bin Laden isn't credible. He had his Saudi citizenship revoked. Why would they then fund his lifestyle in Abbottabad?
Likewise what was the benefit of having the strike team go in if the could just hand him over, or just bury him in the deepest hole the Pakistanis could find?
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Everybody wants to look better than they are, and the military and spy community have proved time and again that they're not immune to that desire, especially to justify things they've done, or things they want to do. I don't blame the admin on this one, I'm willing to bet they were simply repeating what the military and spy types told them.
Johonny
(20,832 posts)It's statements like that make me skeptical of the total veracity of his claims. Does he really think Bin Laden had to be active for the US to search him out and kill him? If Hitler retired and buggered off to Austria before WWII ended does he think the US, UK, France, Russia etc... wouldn't have still tried to get him. It's an odd motivational statement. I doubt Obama needed to fake evidence to make Americans and the world say "Oh, jeepers then it was all right to get Bin Laden." Had been Bin Laden retired to Antarctica and been shot while on the toilet reading Mad Magazine, I doubt very much the American people or the world would give two shits. It is very weak motivational statement. It fails the bull shit test by a huge degree. These are the sources he's relying on so...
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)by killing Enemies of the State.
Articles like this wreck the sense of righteous satisfaction, so they must be dismissed.
You see the same thing with articles criticizing the al Awlaki murder.
mmonk
(52,589 posts)I will say I get skeptical sometimes given the bravado that permeates our foreign policy.