Here's the source for some of the pro-TPP bull$hit being disseminated on DU:

[brentspeak]

A corporate-funded astroturf front group called the "Progressive Coalition for American Jobs", which was by created the beltway PR firm, 270 Strategies, operated by Obama campaign alumni.

Don't be misled -- for all practical purposes, there are no actual rank-and-file Democrats who are advocating for TPP to be passed. The propaganda pushing for TPP smells like bull$hit because it is bull$hit.

[ibegurpard]

1. Of course

they'll tell you websites like DU and social media like Facebook and Twitter are an inconsequential internet "bubble" that don't reflect real world opinion.
Which is bullshit, of course, since they pour resources like this into trying to change the narrative.

[Scuba]

5. Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

[WillyT]

17. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!!

& Rec !!!

[Rex]

24. 1st post and the winner of the thread!

I SMH at the bad actors here.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

51. That's what I say about the Right Wing....

Cheap as they are they still spend billions on propaganda.

I bet they spend MORE on propaganda than they would on a tax increase.

It's the principle of the thing with them.

[GoneFishin]

161. Maybe. But I think that the idea that tax dollars might help some people move up one or two rungs on

the ladder pisses them off because they are furiously stomping on the fingers of those below them to keep that from happening.

[valerief]

167. Brainwashing works.nt

[pa28]

60. Well put.

[L0oniX]

83. Thread win.

[Jack Rabbit]

86. That's one deft observation, sir

!!

[woo me with science]

97. I would love to see the black budget for psyops on the American people these days.

Under corporate rule, this nation has become a vile, magnificently funded propaganda state. We aren't just surveilled; we are constantly targeted with propaganda, manipulation and lies. And this is twenty-first century propaganda. It's interactive, down to discussion boards like this.

Our democratic freedom of the press has been deliberately strangled, and in its place has been grown this vile, Orwellian propaganda machine. This is the level of utter contempt our own government and political machines hold for us under corporate rule.

U.S. Repeals Propaganda Ban, Spreads Government-Made News To Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023262111

The US government's online campaigns of disinformation, manipulation, and smear.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024560097

US Plummets In Press Freedom Rankings
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024487392

Obama's escalating war on Freedom of the Press
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023314296

Risen Case: War on Journalism coming to a head
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101699216

Government Surveillance Is Crippling Press Freedoms, Report Shows
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023902153

Barret Brown was just sentenced for his part in disclosing the goverment sponsorship of the propaganda state
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6193809

Petition Calls On Obama Stop Intimidation Of Journalists And Whistleblowers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025509395

Why Is President Obama Keeping a Journalist in Prison in Yemen
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023300531

James Clapper Calls Journalists "Criminal Accomplices" -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017174990

Reporters without Borders: 'Security interests threaten press freedom'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11333723

Mission Creep: When Everything is Terrorism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023279560

US Uses Espionage Act To Convict Manning Using Words Added In 1990: "with a computer"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023375845

Fed Court: Just changed interpretation of Espionage Act to cover leaks that are NOT Harmful To USA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023365713

NY Times: White House Uses Espionage Act to Silence Employees, Press
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101616764

Obama Has Charged More Under Espionage Act Than All Other Presidents Combined
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023080388

Govt's slimy tactics to silence journalism: Claim to establish "protections" for whistleblowers, when what you are actually doing is creating categories through which you can exclude from protection those you don't want to protect.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023708417
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4976955
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4976082
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4976955

The Obama administration/DOJ war on whistleblowers, federal unions
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5586389

Watergate whistleblower Daniel Ellsburg: Snowden would not get a fair trial today, was right to flee US
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11784497
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023198130

Bradley Birkenfeld, UBS Whistleblower, Finds Himself in Federal Prison
http://www.cnbc.com//id/41257962

Obama taps "cognitive infiltrator" Cass Sunstein for Committee to create "trust" in NSA:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023512796

Editor of major German newspaper says he planted stories for CIA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026163872

Salon: Obama confidant’s spine-chilling proposal: Cass Sunstein wants the government to "cognitively infiltrate" anti-government groups
http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/

Snowden: ‘Training Guide’ for GCHQ, NSA Agents Infiltrating and Disrupting Alternative Media Online
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/25/snowden-training-guide-for-gchq-nsa-agents-infiltrating-and-disrupting-alternative-media-online/

The influx of corporate propaganda-spouting posters is blatant and unnatural.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3189367

U.S. Repeals Propaganda Ban, Spreads Government-Made News To Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023262111

The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.*
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801

The government figured out sockpuppet management but not "persona management."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023358242

The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4159454

Seventeen techniques for truth suppression.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4249741

Just do some Googling on astroturfing - big organizations have some sophisticated tools.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1208351

[ibegurpard]

110. quite a list

[MrMickeysMom]

116. Well, you know there's truth in advertising, uh-huh...

What makes a person remember the best car insurance?

OTOH, will they all end up buying that car insurance, just cause the narrative or jingle is mind numbing?

[Mojorabbit]

126. Lots of good reading here. Thanks! nt

[dreamnightwind]

135. But you are just gish galumping

or some such. Thanks for all you do, your posts are a treasure of useful info.

[hifiguy]

173. You should make this an OP, woo.

Very important stuff.

[Enthusiast]

184. Black budget for psyops on the American people these days?

It's probably no more than 20 billion annually. Besides, much of that is from drug sales operations.

[hifiguy]

172. Boom.

[TreasonousBastard]

2. Actually, the source of my pro-TPP bullshit is...

over 20 years of actual involvement in international trade.

You see, lots of people can say what they think will happen, but I know what did happen on the ground in the past. I'm not going to bore you with the Japanese steel turnings story, or how many times a vessel's and cargo's ownership can change in just one voyage but there is really a lot going on that you don't see.

Many things we don't like will happen due to this agreement, but many worse things will happen without it.

[cantbeserious]

3. All Supposition And Conjecture - However, Real Americans Lived Through The Past Trade Agreements

eom

[TreasonousBastard]

43. My experience is supposition and conjecture?

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

76. Your experience is anecdotal

Like the blind men and the elephant, you might have been too close to the issue to see the big picture.

If not, let's see some stats and links about how great NAFTA and other trade agreements have been for the middle class.

[JDPriestly]

189. I have 71 years of experience. I remember life before the trade agreements.

The trade agreements have hurt our economy really badly. Really badly. And that is in spite of the great technology we have today that we could not have dreamed of back in the 1940s, 50s and 60s. We are in much worse shape today.

[JDPriestly]

190. How old are you? How much experience do you have?

Have you ever been in a trade court? Have you ever read the NAFTA law?

Do you really remember what the economy was like when we had a lot of industry in the US?

Please tell us about your experience. Just what is your experience.

I am 71 and clearly remember our vibrant economy prior to our trade agreements. We still had imports, but they were not smothering our own industry with cheap junky imports.

I have a Maytag washer that I bought used in 1985. It was made in Newton, Iowa. It still works beautifully.

Buy a washer today made in some third world country. It will not run like mine. You can't repair it if it gets a minor glitch. The casing is flimsy. It's got a lot of useless buttons. My old washer, MADE IN THE USA, is priceless. It is a really good quality washer made of good materials by good craftsmen.

International trade can never match the products we made in the US.

Our cotton was wonderful as were all our textiles. We had the best textile industry in the world along with England. All gone. All gone. All sold out bay Republican free-traders who know nothing about textiles, who have never sewn so much as a gathered skirt.

For our free traders it is only about money, not about human values.

[hollysmom]

6. I have always ben warned to stay off boats that are registered in Liberia

that is why I don't take large boat cruises.
things that cut standards, like registering in Liberia so you don't have to meet US standards = bad
things that raise standards = good
when there is a mix, you have to see it all even if it is just a really long piece of paper saying what is going up, and what is going down.

Oh. anything with a corporate court = evil.

[TreasonousBastard]

68. You're really going to hate this...

Liberia is a "flag of convenience" country that will register just about any blue water vessel and even give college kids "master's certificates" that would theoretically allow them to be captains of oil tankers.

It was (and may still be) a joke among King's Point Maritime Academy students to get Panamanian (another flag of convenience) masters licenses when they made their required Canal trip in their junior year. Suitable for framing, but no one will hire you. We hope.

Anyway, all this was set up by the our government for US shipping companies to get around something called the Jones Act that had a lot of requirements for anything sailing between US ports. Safety was secondary to the requirements for US union crews that would be at least three times larger than foreign flag crews, and cost a lot more per seaman. The crew costs could be more than 10 times as much for a US flag vessel. There were other things, too, but you get the idea.

To get back to your choice of cruise, though, if you are planning a cruise the reputation of the cruise operator is much more important than the flag they registered under. Liberia, Panama, Greece, Norway... Few of the registering countries actually get involved in the operations of their fleets after the check is cashed.

[hollysmom]

134. oh, that is fine, years ago I got my captains license in Florida so I can rent a boat there

and sail when I want, I have just not been as flexible lately and have not done that in 10 years. Every one I know that went on the big cruise lines got sick, so much better to provision my own boat and go with friends. Almost got killed a few times, but I am fairly conservative in sailing, so tend to stay in sight of land and I enjoy meteorology, so made people anchor when I see any storm clouds approaching. I have been told that I am a wet blanket, but better to not take chances, enough that I ran into a water spout once. collapsed about 10 feet in front of me.

[brentspeak]

7. "but many worse things will happen without it"

[SusanCalvin]

65. Really. Like what? Do tell, TB. nt

[BB_Smoke]

30. Ideologues will ignore your experience and the facts.

You aren't comfirming their bias or validating their outrage du jour. How dare you.

Also, they think all trade agreements are the same. They employ fallacies usually expected from the Right. "NAFTA was bad, and was a trade agreement. TPP is also a trade agreement, so therefore, it must be bad." NAFTA isn't TPP, and even the most objective analysis of NAFTA proves it has been a mixed bag, neither all good or all bad. Like most human endeavours.

I find it curious that not one person against it can factually demonstrate why. It's all conspiratorial conjecture, based on alleged provisions that may not even make the final cut. I want to make up my own mind, once the final draft is submitted. I am not going to let a demagogue Elizabeth Warren do it for me.

[daredtowork]

41. Perhaps you have to see it first to get so concrete

But since you are reducing Krugman, Robert Reich, and Elizabeth Warren to conspiracy theorists and demagogues, I have to wonder about YOUR origins and motives, Mr. 60 Posts.

[grasswire]

52. hear hear nt

[FlatBaroque]

45. Noted conspiracy theorist Robert Reich is also bad mouthing this wonderful trade deal.

He and all those other noted economists are truly idiots; not smart internet posters like you and TreasonousBastard.

[rhett o rick]

53. Wow another new person popping in to support Free Trade. Amazing. LOL.

Your logic fails. We've seen what this Free Trade agreement consists of in spite of denial of those with their eyes closed and it's a piece of shit.

We've seen lots of testimony as to how this, one more Free Trade Agreement will harm the 99%. No one has even given any possible speculation as how this could possibly help the 99%. If you think it does, share with us how it possibly could be.

It's a Free Trade Agreement. Are all Free Trade Agreements pieces of shit? YES, unless proven otherwise. Your logic that this time MIGHT BE DIFFERENT is laughable.

Give us a clue as to who you are in your other life.

[Marr]

66. LOL, right. The 'silent majority' is REALLY into securing cheaper labor for Nike.

Get real.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

82. Nike has plenty of cheap labor as it is

You think it doesn't? Get real.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Marr]

96. They always want it cheaper.

And there are always new Nikes.

Seriously-- you're arguing that big business is not interested in chasing cheap foreign labor... and you call yourself a 'member of the reality-based community'?

[deurbano]

74. "Silent majority"?! It's 1969 all over again...

Are you sure you want to make that comparison?

[2banon]

119. 1969 and the entire 70's - airwaves filled with this insipid rhetoric

"Silent Majority" coupled with Anti-Communist Red Baiting in the same breath no less, right here on DU in the year 2015.

in freaking credible! .

[billhicks76]

64. Internet Propagandists

I saw the same movement towards justifying with the pro-NSA profiles that suddenly popped up.

[7962]

149. Just the fact that so much is "secret" is enough to warrant suspicion.

This isnt national security or an ongoing military operation.
Lets SEE it so we can possibly make a semi-educated decision

[sulphurdunn]

57. In that case so is your defense of it.

What makes you think you'll see the final draft before it is made law? Contrary to your argument, if one must wonder about what will play at the next opening night without having seen a preview, it is reasonable to assume that past will be prologue if their is suspicion that the same actors are rehearsing the same script on the same stage as the last performance most of the audience hated.

[Exilednight]

67. I think a lot of people will make their own minds up

Once they see it. The problem most are complaining about is TPA which is a way to limit and stifle debate.

[SusanCalvin]

70. You assume we peons

Will be given enough time to make up our own minds. Or enough information. Or that TPTB would listen in any case. I feel railroaded, I know that.

[progressoid]

104. demagogue Elizabeth Warren

ooookaaaay

[Ikonoklast]

159. NAFTA decimated manufacturing and the ancillary industries that support those businesses that

packed up and left for cheap labor elsewhere.

Working class people are still reeling from those effects.

Go away.

[JDPriestly]

191. So, I have read enough of NAFTA to know why I don't like it.

Let me read the TPP. If it is so good, let ME read it for myself. Have you read it? The details I mean, not just the summary. Please let me know what is in it. Quote it verbatim if you have read it.

I can demonstrate why I oppose it. The TPP is a trade agreement. We have an enormous trade deficit, one of the worst if not the worst in the world. Workers in other countries do not earn enough to buy our products, and the very rich prefer to buy their luxuries from other countries like Italy, England and France. They buy some things from us, but the trade deficits of those countries show that their products are more desired by buyers around the world. That is at least people who have money are more likely to buy from those countries than from us.

No trade agreement in the world can make people in other countries want to buy from us.

Because people don't want to buy our products, we end up with a trade deficit, that is we borrow money from other countries to buy the products they make. Each dollar in our trade deficit represents not only lost jobs but lost income earned in our country and even lost revenue that is subject to our taxation.

No wonder we run government deficits. No wonder we can't get a reasonable hold on those deficits. No wonder we don't have nearly enough good jobs, jobs that pay well and challenge us for our people.

Then there are the trade courts that allow corporations to sue countries. That puts the corporations on the same level in terms of legal rights in those courts as countries. That is a threat not just to our sovereignty but to the very concept of a sovereign state across the world. It is crazy to equate the right of a country and the right of a nation in a legal system. That is just putting the worship of the Corporate Personhood to far above the rights of man. A corporation is not a human being.

The trade agreements dehumanize working people and elevate corporations to a legal status that is unhealthy and anti-democratic.

[immoderate]

193. NAFTA was "neither all good or all bad" for whom?

Is it possible the degree of goodness correlates with say, the aggregate wealth of the beneficiary? You make it sound like "god plays dice" to determine who benefits.

Emergent behaviors eliminate the necessity for conspiracies. Straw man.

What other country has fast track? Why is it necessary?

--imm

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Funny those same 20 years and what has happened under NAFTA

make me question the claims that this will be different. Of course it is NAFTA, Korea Free Trade, CAFTA, et al

[sulphurdunn]

44. Please feel free to bore us

with all the specific details you want from your professional experience, your insider knowledge of the TPP and why we should fear not having it in our futures.

[TreasonousBastard]

56. Of course...

Trade exists-- it has always existed, going back to before the Phoenicians. And it exists now and will not stop.

Without regulation you have piracy, slavery, death and destruction from basic human greed.

There are two ways to regulate trade-- empire or treaty. Empire takes as much of the trade business and incorporates it into the laws and procedures of one country. There have been many empires throughout history, but the British are the best example of expanding their national law across the planet to stabilize markets and make sure they had regular supplies of tea and cotton.

The problems with Empire are obvious, so the next best solution is coming to agreements over tariffs, taxes, safety concerns piracy, currency exchange, port management, time zones, and everything else that can affect getting things from here to there.

An alternative is stopping trade with protectionism and putting up barriers. We kind of tried that once, and it didn't work. It means you can't get the Hondas made in Japan, or avocados, or Indian tea. It also means global economic collapse.

I have no insider knowledge of the TPP, but it is being negotiated as an alternative to anarchy. If you prefer anarchy, leading to Chinese hegemony, go for it.

[Geronimoe]

61. One vote for anarchy

Much better than secret TPP.

[PosterChild]

79. A vote for a life that is...

...solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.

[druidity33]

143. make that 2 votes for Anarchy. nt.

[SusanCalvin]

72. As far as I can see

You made an argument for the concept of trade agreements in general, not for this particular one. Unless you are proposing that any trade agreement TPTB negotiate is automatically good.

[sulphurdunn]

75. Hundreds of global trade agreements

are currently in force. The US already has free trade agreements with 20 countries. The TTP and the TTIP would double that number. Nothing suggests that will benefit the American working class, reduce the balance of payments deficit, or make the government more representative.

If the government was interested in creating American jobs, the same people pushing these agreements could have created a million of them just by allocating public funds to infrastructure repair, increasing the SNAP program, raising Social Security benefits and reducing the interest it charges for student loans, among many other things. When these folks show even the slightest inclination to do that I will consider the benefits of the TPP. Until then, I'll take my chances with anarchy and Chinese hegemony.

[PosterChild]

81. Good analysis, Thanks! /nt/

[GeorgeGist]

89. Please enlighten us with your insider knowledge of ISDS?

Thanks in advance.

[xocet]

118. Logical Fallacy: Your argument 'TPP or "anarchy leading to Chinese hegemony" ' is a False Dichotomy.

TreasonousBastard (25,178 posts)

56. Of course...

...

I have no insider knowledge of the TPP, but it is being negotiated as an alternative to anarchy. If you prefer anarchy, leading to Chinese hegemony, go for it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6653097

[RichVRichV]

130. So that's your argument?

So what you're trying to say is that if we don't pass the TPP then all past trade agreements become invalid and we fall into anarchy? Or is your argument that we're already in anarchy and only the TPP can save us?

What a load of crap.

I'll tell you exactly what will happen if we don't pass the TPP. Absolutely nothing will happen. Past trade agreements will still be in force and the world will continue right along trading with each other. And we won't be screwed over by the corporations in the process.

[dreamnightwind]

138. I actually think protectionism is a reasonable response

to countries who won't meet reasonable standards of environmental, regulatory, and labor concerns. This "treaty" is primarily written by corporate interests. I know they claim to have included environmental and labor concerns, but it's odd that environmental and labor groups are so united in their opposition.

Corporations should be required to pay wages that would provide at least a living wage in their own country if they are going to use labor in some other nation to produce goods to be sold in the country of the corporation's origin. And goods produced by foreign corporations should be subject to tariffs to offset the disparity in labor and regulatory standards. If we had polical representation for citizens rather than for the largest campaign donors, these issues would be getting a lot of consideration.

I know the left is supposed to be against protectionist policies, perhaps it's time to reevaluate that. Times and conditions have radically changed. The information revolution has made it possible for corporations to exploit the weakest labor and regulatory conditions anywhere, tracking projects with distributed workforces, and the massive infrastructure of modern ports and shipping enables goods produced offshore to be imported back and sold into price structures that reflect entirely different monetary and living conditions. The old free trade liberalism is no longer viable for anyone but the corporations. It's obvious, and would be obvious to many more people if it were explained to them, but the explainers are all on the corporate payroll.

Rather than regional agreements writtten by corporate interests and enforced by stateless courts whose members are appointed without public oversight, we should set the acceptable conditions for goods from other nations. If they won't meet those conditions, we can ban the imports or we can attempt to offset the unfair production environment with tariffs.

I'm sure not all of my ideas here are viable or are the proper response, but it's time for a rethink, and to think for ourselves, we're being sold a load of pain by bought and paid for politicians.

[Gregorian]

169. I like this.

It feels right to me. I'm trying to learn as this all unfolds. It's far from my expertise.

[magical thyme]

146. of course, along with "no insider knowledge of the TPP" ...you left out the parts about

with all the specific details you want from your professional experience, your insider knowledge of the TPP and why we should fear not having it in our futures.

But do go on

[eridani]

147. "tariffs, taxes, safety concerns, piracy, currency exchange, port management, time zones"

Only 5 of 29 sections have anything at all to do with these actual trade-related concerns. Most of it is about allowing corporations to fuck over elected governments.

ISDS isn’t a one-time, hypothetical problem – we’ve seen it in past trade agreements. Just in the past few years:

--A French company sued Egypt after Egypt raised its minimum wage.
--A Swedish company sued Germany because Germany wanted to phase out nuclear power for safety reasons.
--A Dutch company sued the Czech Republic because the Czech Republic didn't bail out a bank that the Dutch company partially owned.
--Philip Morris is using ISDS right now to try to stop countries like Australia and Uruguay from implementing new rules that are intended to cut smoking rates – because the new laws might eat into the tobacco giant’s profits.

[Chan790]

152. Hmm.

That's load of horseshit right there...not your post, all those ISDS cases.

One more reason to not pass TPA.

[Scootaloo]

177. How quaint, you think it's about an exchange of sprockets and doodads

No, I'm afraid modern trade deals are mostly about the liberation of capital, not exchange of goods.

[LanternWaste]

181. I think it's cute how you reduced anyone disagreeing with your position as "preferring anarchy...

"but it is being negotiated as an alternative to anarchy. If you prefer anarchy, leading to Chinese hegemony, go for it..."

I think it's cute how you reduced anyone disagreeing with your position as "preferring anarchy..." (that, in addition to your use of the fallacy of false choice; i.e., denying the conjunct). And while your statement certainly contains little relevant validity and is couched in third-grade petulance, it's still cute.

You've certainly illustrated your ability to rationalize explain your permise with little bias...

[PosterChild]

73. + 100 ! !!

[KJG52]

80. Actually, my Anti-TPP Position is based on being in international trade and transportation since '73

and although these things that you said in your post do happen- TPP will do nothing to change that. You don't really have to be a veteran of international transport and trade to know that this trade agreement isn't really about trade. It is about protecting the interests of Big Pharma, Entertainment, Finance and the precious positions of multi-nationals in their respective stock and bond markets. It is about straight-jacketing Unions, the rights of local governments and the rights of people to influence policy through the action of government. It's about rigging the playing field for the wealthy and preserving the status quo... So your screen name is well chosen...

[moondust]

113. ^^^^^^^^^

Most likely scenario as far as I can tell.

Basically a giant step toward global neofeudalism. Megalomaniacs want more.

[deutsey]

151. +1

[hifiguy]

174. Exactly!

Bravo!

[whereisjustice]

107. We are people, not disposable comodities. If these deals are so good, then it should reflect

in our wages and quality of life. Since these benefits of US citizenship are in steady decline for 80% or more of us (correlated 100% with trade deals sending millions of jobs to unregulated low-wage sweatshops in India and China) then I call bullshit.

The 1% have done well, however. But from a strictly business point of view, these trade deals HURT most Americans and the raw data proves it.

Now, as for the 1%? Fuck them. Let them learn to live on less than $40,000,000 a year.

They've taken enough from us. It needs to stop.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

123. ^

Since this isn't my field at all, I'm going to go with "demagogues" (oy vey ) like Elizabeth Warren, Robert Reich, Paul Krugman, the many democrats uniting against it, trade unions dissenting, etc. I assume they all know a lot more than me.

[DirtyHippyBastard]

185. Is there room in your boat?

Because I am jumping in there with you.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

192. help yourself

And take an oar.

[Cal Carpenter]

176. Appeal to authority and false dichotomy

Nice twofer.

[JDPriestly]

188. I favor just breaking our current trade agreements and limiting imports until wages rise

in other countries and until our trade deficit no longer exists.

More trade will just dig us deeper into the hole into which we have already sunk too deep.

You don't give an alcoholic more martinis. You send him or her to a sober living rehab program.

America needs to get off imports. We are addicted to them. We need rehab for our imports addiction. That's what you do with people who get addicted to and entangled in too much credit. And the numbers prove, the US is addicted to too much credit.

[CharlotteVale]

4. So they were behind Ro Khanna's campaign, too. That figures.

Whatever they call themselves, I sure as hell don't consider them "progressive."

[DisgustipatedinCA]

8. Has anyone wondered WHY some at DU are supporting TPP?

I think that unless we have DU'ers who are senior executives at multinational corporations, none of us has a vested interest in seeing this passed. That makes me wonder about the motivations of the TPP's supporters at DU. What would cause a person to go to the mat for a trade agreement that we can't see except in leaked portions (and whose leaked portions sound very bad)? There's no one in this country telling themselves "I sure hope the trade agreement passes. I think its passage may get me a raise or a better job", so why defend it?

I'm assuming some have a sense of loyalty they feel for the President that goes beyond what most would consider rational.

[erronis]

15. Well stated. I'd like to see some attempts at refutation.

[Phlem]

16. Ding! Ding! Ding!

[rhett o rick]

19. I apologize for sounding like a broken record as some of my "friends" keep pointing out, BUT

it is my opinion that a lot of people in America were raised to be good authoritarians. Many parents, teachers, soccer coaches, boy scout leaders, priests and other religious leaders have found that it's easier to ask for blind obedience. Our police demand it or they taser you at the best and kill you at the worst. Teaching our young people to be open-minded/liberal minded, is harder. Therefore, I believe that a lot of people hook their wagons to their choice of authoritarian leader and follow along blindly.

It's easy to strongly dislike Richard "Little Dick" Cheney, but harder to be skeptical of Pres Obama. But Obama has carried a number of Bush/Cheney's programs on and expanded on some. Authoritarians can't be skeptical and try to shout down those that are.

[zeemike]

42. Well keep saying it because it is true.

And we are being conditioned to accept authoritarianism as normal...a dangerous thing IMO...and history bears witness to it.

[delrem]

22. If the vast bulk of your income is profit from investment capital.

You don't need to be a CEO.
If all you care about is maximizing return on investment capital, then a deregulated level playing field is your dream come true.

[sulphurdunn]

49. If all you care about is maximizing return

on investment capital, then a game rigged in your favor at a crooked table where the suckers have to play is your dream come true.

[Art_from_Ark]

114. The playing field might be level,

but the goal posts for one side are constantly being moved.

[Aerows]

39. I think I've made my feelings clear

But it doesn't hurt to say that if you support the TPP, you are either naive or idol-blinded.

It certainly isn't grounded in knowledge of fiduciary law or a care for the few industries we have to export goods.

[grasswire]

55. Quite often, these are the same members who support Surveillance State.

Just for the record.

[PosterChild]

90. I sure hope the trade agreement passes. I think its passage.....

... will get Americans a raise and better jobs.

That's what global trade, in general, does for us. Trade agreements affect how people are employed, with the goal being to substitute more productive jobs for less productive ones and thus raise real incomes.

Low skilled manufacturing jobs are not the future. We need to keep moving our economy out of the past and towards the future of a highly educated, highly productive work force engaged in high value jobs. Without world trade, and without being engaged in putting together the rules of the game, that can't be done.

[whereisjustice]

109. Biggest lie ever is "low skill manufacturing jobs"... they are moving engineering, research, legal,

medical, software, IT, finance, marketing, advertising, even management and other good paying white collar jobs to Asia at record pace.

There is nothing more competitive about sending jobs to low-skill, low wage, proxy slaves earning $0.50 an hour in a white collar sweatshop.

[dreamnightwind]

141. Yes, both Obama and Hillary

have gone overseas to promote expanded infrastructure for compter programmers to do our work in India and Nigeria. Those are just two examples that I know of, I'm sure there are many others. And when they aren't traveling overseas to promote cheaper intellectual workforce develop, they are working to expand H1-B visas to bring such people into our own country. The emperor truly has no clothes.

[PosterChild]

145. Yes, of course....

.... other nations are going to be (have been) developing engineering, research, etc. They aren't going to be stuck in the past either. We may have an advantage now, but it won't last forever.

It's a competitive, dynamic, ever advancing world in which we live, and we aren't going to improve our prospects by building walls and trenches around ourselves.

[whereisjustice]

154. Your claims are bullshit. Let the 1% billionaries sacrifice for a change, your "reality" isn't

reality at all. It is a manufactured lie to ship millions of jobs to low-wage, unregulated labor pool in Asia so that a handful of people at the top of the political class can benefit.

Other nations have research? Guess who's funding that research?

Guess who's helping China and India build their military and infrastructure?

US CORPORATIONS BY OUTSOURCING US JOBS, TRAINING AND TECHNOLOGY.

If you have so much to offer Asia - then move there.

[PosterChild]

194. LOL ! (nm)

[SMC22307]

117. Assembling sneakers is a "high value job" in your world?

Obama chose Nike to tout the TPP. Vietnamese will make the shoes at low wages, and in return, Americans will get to sell them at low wages. In your glitter-farting unicorn world, how are ordinary Americans benefitting? Exactly what "more productive jobs" will be available to us?

For most American workers, real wages have remained stagnant for DECADES. It's delusional to think the TPP is going to remedy that.

[PosterChild]

144. No, of course not, that's ....

... an example of low skilled,, low wage manufacturing. The Nike visit is a PR move.

By the way, my world, OUR world is THE world. Without world trade and globalization, American wouldn't be an advanced industrial nation, let alone the leader amongst them. And Americans benifit greatly from that status.

[whereisjustice]

108. I see the same problem with the NSA apologists who have fallen in love with our police state...

what makes them convinced we have too many civil liberties?

[Paka]

127. Thank you!

[Divernan]

139. Ever wonder about deep cover?

posters who, for one example, are listed as joining DU 4 years ago, but are only on their 60th post?

[Puglover]

163. LOL

Or joined in 2001 and have 1400 or so posts. 1000 of them in the last 90 days. Interesting.

[neverforget]

195. Looks like I wasn't the only one who noticed too

[whatchamacallit]

182. Nothing else explains it

It's a Pavlovian response to the president being challenged.

[SMC22307]

9. Young, probably affluent, I'm guessing from top schools...

with no fucking clue as to how the majority of Americans live.

http://twoseventy-strategies.herokuapp.com/our-team/

Disgusting.

[zeemike]

58. Yep, just read the first 4 founding members.

None of which has ever held a real job outside of politics and big business.

[SMC22307]

121. Instead of a long weekend at Virginia Beach, trekking the Himalayas is the norm.

One lives on Capitol Hill, in an insanely priced row house, no doubt. Her investment portfolio will soar thanks to this shitty trade deal. Meanwhile, 40 miles away, Baltimore fucking burns.

[whereisjustice]

112. Or, paying $0.10 a post from outsourced PR firm in China and/or India.

[Divernan]

140. Some are clearly paid by the post, others seem to be paid by the word.

[Major Hogwash]

10. OMG! This leads straight to the White House!

Where the highest officials are touting the President's plan!!

[brentspeak]

11. So White House officials are using tax dollars to fund an astroturf PR group?

I hope that's not what you're saying.

[woo me with science]

91. IMAGINE that this White House would be complicit in manipulating and propagandizing Americans!

Those who build surveillance machines also build propaganda machines.

We live in a vile, magnificently funded propaganda state. Our system, and our current corporate-purchased "representatives," are deeply corrupt.

Obama taps "cognitive infiltrator" Cass Sunstein for Committee to create "trust" in NSA:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023512796

Editor of major German newspaper says he planted stories for CIA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026163872

Salon: Obama confidant’s spine-chilling proposal: Cass Sunstein wants the government to "cognitively infiltrate" anti-government groups
http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/

The US government's online campaigns of disinformation, manipulation, and smear.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024560097

Snowden: ‘Training Guide’ for GCHQ, NSA Agents Infiltrating and Disrupting Alternative Media Online
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/25/snowden-training-guide-for-gchq-nsa-agents-infiltrating-and-disrupting-alternative-media-online/

The influx of corporate propaganda-spouting posters is blatant and unnatural.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3189367

U.S. Repeals Propaganda Ban, Spreads Government-Made News To Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023262111

The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.*
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801

The government figured out sockpuppet management but not "persona management."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023358242

The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4159454

Seventeen techniques for truth suppression.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4249741

Just do some Googling on astroturfing - big organizations have some sophisticated tools.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1208351

[Dragonfli]

18. And perhaps this as well

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12774832

[Spitfire of ATJ]

59. And this....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1022162

[Enthusiast]

160. I missed that one the first time around. K&R.

[bananas]

14. those are good links. k&r nt

[Enthusiast]

20. Kicked

and recommended!

[Aerows]

23. All it takes is a knowledge of history

and two brain cells to rub together to know that TPP is the final sellout of our nation.

[malthaussen]

170. Well,, maybe not the final sellout.

There may be an old end table or something left.

Quick rant: the nation-state is an obsolete concept. Our rulers know this, have worked for it, and want to continue to benefit from it, so they want to write trade rules that will transcend the quaint and obsolete notion. In some ways, this is a good thing, since a lot of blood has been spilt over the nation-state concept. In other ways, not so much, since what is really going on (IMO) is the separation of the whole world into an oligarchy of rich folks in the club, and the vast mass of the rest of us, who can go die for all they care, as long as we do it quietly. The only purpose served by the concept of the nation-state, and the only reason the ruling oligarchs would like to perpetuate some remnant of it, is to justify wars and therefore continual spending on armaments to further enrich their swollen coffers. (As a side benefit, the armies can help keep the pitchforks away from their doors).

End of rant

-- Mal

[Ford_Prefect]

25. As cheerful a bunch that should ever walk the plank...

Fat incomes and fatuous reasoning. I saw them sweep into NC twice to harvest votes and money for Obama and do nothing at all for local Democrats.

Shamelessly taunting on the phone and at the polls about how we'll have another Bush if we don't get in line and pay-up.

I wonder exactly how they would react if the rest of us actual progressives showed up for lunch and camped on their front door? Have you ever seen a sacred cow at a barbecue?

[Hoyt]

26. Well, here's an opinion piece from a couple of Democrats.

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/trans-pacific-partnership-promises-more-than-prosperity/


Progressive Coalition for America.

Deval Patrick is part of the group’s recruitment of well-known national Democratic leaders that include former Washington governor Christine Gregoire and former Dallas mayor Ron Kirk. The three will head the group’s advisory committee.

[djean111]

31. Is three times the charm?

Aren't you the poster who switches in between Hey! This will be awesome for America! and Oh, well, no, it will be bad, but it is what you guys deserve for being bad to other countries!
Sometimes in the same post.
And "Democrats" is such a bendy word these days, n'est-ce pas?

[Hoyt]

32. Nope, I'm speaking truth to myopia.

[djean111]

34. Um, Progressive Coalition for America is about as sincere a name as Americans for Prosperity.

It was formed in order to push for Fast Track and the TPP. With "Progressive" in the title. Smooth move.
And I wouldn't call its members Progressives., really. Doesn't Deval Patrick work for BAIN CAPITAL now? Yeah, there's a progressive guy. Not.

[Hoyt]

38. Maybe you ought to read about his position, before posting crud you consider "progressive."

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/04/13/former-gov-deval-patrick-join-bain-capital/QEgS648qXMm2KIq1AUySRO/story.html#


Patrick will help give Bain its first foothold in the growing field of “social impact” investing, tackling social problems such as hunger and climate change with for-profit investments."

The truth is, until Dems regain Congress, we are going to have to find unique ways to address social issues. Profits are not bad if made by socially conscious companies and taxed appropriately.

[djean111]

46. You know, crud is such a rude little word.

We mostly post opinions here at DU, and you seem to think, for some odd reason, that you can just tell others what to post and what to think. Doomed to failure.

[Hoyt]

47. Better than people who use the word "s#@t" all the time. Do you have a substantive comment?

[KoKo]

162. A bit more on Patrick and anticipation:

From the article:

Patrick said he has no plans to return to politics in the near future. But he acknowledged that he weighed how working for a private equity firm could affect his political resume.

“I’ve spent most of my career in the private sector. I know that there are deals that go really well and deals that don’t go so well,” he said.

During the 2012 presidential campaign, when stumping for Barack Obama against Romney, Patrick declined to join Democrats who vilified Bain and Romney’s work for the firm. On MSNBC’s “Morning Joe,” Patrick called Bain “a perfectly fine company.”

“They have a role in the private economy, and I’ve got a lot of friends there . . . on both sides of the aisle,” Patrick said at the time. “I think the Bain strategy has been distorted in some of the public discussions.”

Patrick’s private-sector jobs have included stints as general counsel of Coca-Cola Co. and Texaco. But more than a year ago, he was talking to colleagues about what he might do after his term other than taking a corporate job.

[tennstar]

84. Progressive coalition for America

I have been following DU for years and I am finally posting, because the thought that Christine Gregoire is anything other than a 3rd way sell out is laughable. Her legacy of selling to the highest bidder has left behind the most corrupt dept of Ecology. She sold out our Tidelands in Washington State to a shellfish industry that is great at green washing while spraying poison and plastizing our beaches for trade to China. The shellfish industry that pays nothing in state taxes and is worth about three hundred jobs. Of course if you take their numbers which probably include all their lawyers and lobbyists it is under 600 non Union many just part time jobs.
Progressive not so much. On top of being a sellout to shellfish growers she sold her sole to Boeing
Amazon and Microsoft. To the people of WA. Bridges that fall, schools underfunded. Roads a mess and absolutely no idea how much water is being taken by feed lots or unchecked growth.

[Hoyt]

92. You seem to be in the minority regarding her.

[tennstar]

101. In the minority

Really shows how much you know about Washington, but when you hang with 3rd way and dlc folk no surprise.
I do have to laugh at people who make statements just to make them like that gives you any credibility.

[Hoyt]

103. Do you have any substantive, citable criticism of her, other than your opinion.

I get you don't like her, but that could be for a lot of reasons, some of which could be deplorable.

[Caretha]

155. He gave you reasons

you just want to pretend he didn't.

[Hoyt]

157. The general opinion of her is quite different.

[uppityperson]

171. What do you think about Rossi?

Welcome to DU and a piece of advice. While there can be a narrow line between sarcasm and insults, the first goes over better here.

[chknltl]

122. Welcome to DU tennstar

Welcome to DU from a fellow Washatonian....(is that what we call ourselves?), at any rate, I voted for Gregoire because it was vote against the Republican(s?) she ran against. To be fair, I could not tell you much about her two terms, good or bad. I suspect that there may be a few folks around here who remember her well enough, especially over in DU's Washington State Group. Btw I sorta like Gov. Inslee but sorta worry about him too. If memory serves, I disagreed with his leadership on impeachment hearings for President Bush and his evil empire. Btw now that you are a fellow DUer perhaps you might take a moment to cast your vote, maybe even add a thought on this most fascinating DU Poll:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6592890

[SMC22307]

124. Deval Patrick who's joining Romney's Bain Capital?

My goodness, what a difference three short years makes...

[Hoyt]

128. You too should read about his position. Maybe if you are doing more for folks, you could tell us

about your efforts.

www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/04/13/former-gov-deval-patrick-join-bain-capital/QEgS648qXMm2KIq1AUySRO/story.html#


Patrick will help give Bain its first foothold in the growing field of “social impact” investing, tackling social problems such as hunger and climate change with for-profit investments."

The truth is, until Dems regain Congress, we are going to have to find unique ways to address social issues. Profits are not bad if made by socially conscious companies and taxed appropriately.

[ibegurpard]

129. excuse me?

"Profits are not bad if made by socially conscious companies and taxed appropriately."

You do realize you are talking about Romneycorp right?

[Hoyt]

131. I'm talking about Deval Patrick. I really don't care who he uses to accomplish his goals.

[ibegurpard]

132. of course you don't

carry on.

[Hoyt]

133. Maybe you too could tell us what you are doing that has the chance to accomplish more than Patrick.

[TheKentuckian]

148. "social impact" investing = Green washing Astroturf and neoliberal indentured status for the poor.

Putrid extraction scams and snake oil salesman ripoffs.

[SMC22307]

198. My work life revolves around EMTALA at not-for-profit hospitals.

I'm having a tough time wrapping my brain around solving hunger through for-profit investments.

"If" taxed appropriately. Good one!

[Hoyt]

199. What, you figure out how to transfer sick people, but appear to comply with law?

I bet you have a hard time figuring it out. I worked at a non-profit hospital and they were worried about how it would look to have the Brink's truck pull up outside and used to pray for a flu epidemic when the census was low.

[SMC22307]

200. My goodness, so cynical...

and bra-vo to your nasty little swipe.

Perhaps while Deval is solving all that hunger 'n stuff, he'll figure out how to provide Americans with good-paying jobs so they can afford decent health insurance and attain an overall better quality of life. That would rule out Nike salespersons at $8.50/hr. Or low-wage workers at Bain's Burger King.

Patrick said he could envision looking for deals in health, the environment, energy, and education, as well as community development. The focus in the early days will be in the United States, Bain said.

I suggest he start with Baltimore.

[Hoyt]

201. Yeah, you are righteous, but Patrick can't possibly be doing anything good.

Not-for-profits just have less people benefiting from profits.

I think Patrick will do well, even if he just scrapes off a little bit of profit for socially conscious activities.

[SMC22307]

202. And the Bain vultures will be happy with scraping off just a little bit of profit?

And oldie but goodie.

Fuck them all.

[Hoyt]

203. Patrick doesn't do that, nor does he try to handle uninsured patients under EMTALA to avoid

uncompensated care and penalties.

[Hoyt]

26. Darn Chinese phone goes nuts. Sorry

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/trans-pacific-partnership-promises-more-than-prosperity/

[Hoyt]

26. Unintended duplicate, sorry.

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/trans-pacific-partnership-promises-more-than-prosperity/

[TheNutcracker]

29. Omar Kahn, worst campaign manager ever, re: Charlie Crist was sent to DC to begin this talk!

In 2002, when young Omar Khan got a job as an intern in Nancy Pelosi's congressional office, NAFTA had already been passed and signed into law by Bill Clinton. An initiative of Big Business, Wall Street and the Republican Party, George H.W. Bush, who negotiated it, had been unable to get Congress to fast track and pass it before he was defeated by Bill Clinton-- who promptly assured Bush, Big Business and Wall Street he would get it passed-- which he did. Pelosi was among the minority of Democrats who backed NAFTA. Clinton hired Rahm Emanuel, then a little known White House aide already fashioning himself an image as a bully and an asshole, to ride roughshod over reticent Democrats opposing job killing "free" trade policies. With Tom DeLay working one side of the aisle and Emanuel working the other side, they bribed, blackmailed and beat up enough Members of the House to get NAFTA passed 234-200. 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voted for it. 156 Democrats (+ Independent Bernie Sanders) voted no, as did 43 Republicans. Today, Obama finds himself trying to fast track and pass an even worse trade bill than NAFTA, the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). He has far more Republican support-- plus support from the Republican wing of the Democratic Party-- than Democratic Party support.

Rahm is busy fighting for his political life in Chicago, where most Democrats have come to despise him, so Obama hired another hack loyalist to try to help get Democrats behind the fatally flawed TPP. Omar Khan, a former OFA eager beaver who most recently oversaw Charlie Christ's catastrophic campaign for governor of Florida is supposed to do for the TPP what Rahm did for NAFTA. Khan's official title will be Assistant Federal Trade Representative for intergovernmental and public engagement but his task is to persuade Democrats to back the TPP. -

See more at: http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2015/02/can-omar-khan-do-for-tpp-what-rahm.html#sthash.vfgyirHT.dpuf
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2015/02/can-omar-khan-do-for-tpp-what-rahm.html

[JEB]

33. fuckin' A, man. The money humpers are desperate

to pass this shit.

[woo me with science]

35. K&R Those who build surveillance machines

..also build propaganda machines.

We live in a vile, magnificently funded propaganda state. Our system, and our current corporate-purchased "representatives," are deeply corrupt.

Obama taps "cognitive infiltrator" Cass Sunstein for Committee to create "trust" in NSA:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023512796

Editor of major German newspaper says he planted stories for CIA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026163872

Salon: Obama confidant’s spine-chilling proposal: Cass Sunstein wants the government to "cognitively infiltrate" anti-government groups
http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/

The US government's online campaigns of disinformation, manipulation, and smear.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024560097

Snowden: ‘Training Guide’ for GCHQ, NSA Agents Infiltrating and Disrupting Alternative Media Online
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/25/snowden-training-guide-for-gchq-nsa-agents-infiltrating-and-disrupting-alternative-media-online/

The influx of corporate propaganda-spouting posters is blatant and unnatural.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3189367

U.S. Repeals Propaganda Ban, Spreads Government-Made News To Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023262111

The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.*
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801

The government figured out sockpuppet management but not "persona management."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023358242

The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4159454

Seventeen techniques for truth suppression.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4249741

Just do some Googling on astroturfing - big organizations have some sophisticated tools.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1208351

[pampango]

40. There have been plenty of polls showing "actual rank-and-file Democrats" support TPP.

Discrediting one of them does not discredit them all.

It would be useful to post a poll that shows that "actual rank-and-file Democrats" oppose TPP.

[Geronimoe]

62. I'd rather see a poll of how many know what is in the TPP

Probably none.

[pampango]

71. That's an effective way to discount poll results that you don't agree with. n/t

[Art_from_Ark]

87. So give us some examples of these polls

and who was polled, and what sorts of questions were asked.

For example, "The TPP will bring jobs back to America. Do you support it?"

Of course, a "rank-and-file" Democrat who doesn't really know what is actually in the TPP, would almost naturally say "Yes" if it were a simple yes-or-no question.

[pampango]

158. Here you go:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/11/07/why-cant-we-all-get-along-challenges-ahead-for-bipartisan-cooperation/

Poll done in April of Democrats only:

Initial TPA Ballot
Q5. From what you have heard, do you… granting President Obama trade promotion authority?

Strongly support 25%
Somewhat support 39%
Somewhat oppose 13%
Strongly oppose 8%
Don't know 14%

SUPPORT 64%
OPPOSE 21%

Initial TPP Ballot
Q7. From what you have heard, do you… President Obama's proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement?

Strongly support 20%
Somewhat support 31%
Somewhat oppose 10%
Strongly oppose 8%
Don't know 30%

SUPPORT 52%
OPPOSE 18%

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54e2b1d1e4b043f1c9a2a9ed/t/55424db8e4b04641a244468d/1430408665168/trade-poll.pdf

68% of republicans (74% of 'conservative republicans') will hold a pro-fast track vote against their candidate compared to 17% of Democrats.

I wonder who the 11% that want their politician to support fast track.

http://fasttrackpoll.info/

Poll: conservative and moderate republicans oppose fast track (for the TPP) by a ratio of 85 percent or higher.

On the question of fast-track authority, 62 percent of respondent opposed the idea, with 43 percent “strongly” opposing it. Broken down by political affiliation, only Democrats that identify as “liberal” strongly favor the idea. Predictably, a strong Republican majority oppose giving the president such authority, with both conservative and moderates oppose it by a ratio of 85 percent or higher.

http://www.ibtimes.com/trans-pacific-partnership-tpp-poll-only-strongest-obama-supporters-want-him-have-fast-track-1552039

My guess is that there are many polls on TPP and fast track being conducted now since the latter is before congress. The only one I have seen released recently is the second one above.

... a "rank-and-file" Democrat who doesn't really know what is actually in the TPP, would almost naturally say "Yes" if it were a simple yes-or-no question."

I tend to agree although I think many believe that most Democrats would usually answer "No" given a negative view of past trade agreements. Democrats almost always poll as more supportive of trade agreements, international diplomacy in general, foreign aid, etc. than republicans who tend to oppose almost all forms of international involvement, other than bombing and invasion.

As far as a knowledge of TPP, 30% in that poll said they did not know enough to offer an opinion. Democrats who did offer an opinion supported TPP 52% to 18% - which is consistent with the 1st poll above.

[brentspeak]

166. Pampango's latest pro-TPP propraganda prat-fall:

[div class = "excerpt"]

Poll done in April of Democrats only:

(some made-up stats...)

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54e2b1d1e4b043f1c9a2a9ed/t/55424db8e4b04641a244468d/1430408665168/trade-poll.pdf

Didn't look at the masthead, did you? "Progressive Coalition for American Jobs"

[pampango]

168. Why do you consider them "made-up stats"? They are consistent with polls from other sources.

The 52% Democratic support for TPP shown in that poll is consistent with the 59% shown in the Pew poll and the 52% level of Democratic support in the poll sponsored by the Communications Workers of American and the Sierra Club.

I share your skepticism of the organization which sponsored the poll. Here is my post from last week on it:

Consider the source but the only recent poll I've seen on Democratic attitudes of fast track and TPP

The poll was commissioned by Progressive Coalition for American Jobs which is the recent group led by Obama staffers so it has an agenda. I haven no idea how reliable a pollster the Benson Strategy Group is. The poll was done in late April so it's the most recent one I've seen.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026619109

Can you cite some "real polling stats" on Democratic support for or opposition to TPP and fast track for us? That would add greatly to the discussion and help prove the point you are trying to make. If I have missed any recent polls I would love to see them.

[SusanCalvin]

77. Exactly

Supporting a pig in a poke. Me, I oppose all pigs in pokes.

[MohRokTah]

48. I fully support the TPP

Only because the same Obama haters on DU are opposed to the TPP.

[think]

54. I like Obama but the TPP is corporate crap and that's why the majority of Dems in DC don't want to

Fast Track it....

[NRaleighLiberal]

98. what a great reason. so you would love a food you hate because of how someone you hate feels about

it? that's some fine independent thinking you have there.

[ibegurpard]

115. go team!

[xocet]

120. But the "Obama haters" in Congress (i.e., the Republicans) support the TPP...

Obama and Republicans Agree on the Trans-Pacific Partnership … Unfortunately

...

There’s an important issue out there you may never have heard of, which is just what its proponents would like. That’s the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), currently being pushed by the Obama administration and its corporate (and mostly Republican!) allies.

...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/opinion/obama-and-republicans-agree-on-the-trans-pacific-partnership-unfortunately.html?_r=0

With "Obama haters" on both sides of the issue, how can you use that as a meaningful criterion for your choice?

[stillwaiting]

150. Admitting to being a fully reactionary thinker probably won't garner much respect.

And, it shouldn't.

That's what most right-wing Republicans do with their "thinking".

They are automatically against anything that "liberals" are for.

Knee-jerk reactionaries are VERY easy to manipulate, and you are ceding your thinking to others. That's just not very smart.

[1StrongBlackMan]

156. Here let me edit that ...

I would fully support the TPP, if for no other reason, Only because the same Obama haters on DU,who have been wrong on every single speculation they have made regarding President Obama, his actions and the outcomes, are opposed to the TPP.

I trust their record.

[AgingAmerican]

204. List the parts you like

nt

[ananda]

50. Double kick

..

[Buzz Clik]

69. And there are those of us who simply want to know the details before making a decision.

[SusanCalvin]

78. Bingo.

And enough time to look at them. Currently, I feel railroaded.

[Buzz Clik]

93. Really? You read the legislation introduced in Congress?

[SusanCalvin]

94. Uh, I thought I was agreeing with you.

Wasn't I?

[Buzz Clik]

95. I'm not sure.

I'm not opposed to something I know very little about -- I'm undecided.

I have great apprehension when people become rabid about something when they don't have the facts. This issue has the added twist that the same people don't want to know the facts.

It's fargin' bizarre.

[SusanCalvin]

102. Ah.

I'm currently opposed because a) I'm being told to "have trust," with no reason to do so, b) I know nothing except what's been leaked and I don't like that, c) I strongly suspect things will move too fast for the regular people to do anything about it when things start to move, and c) defensiveness (Obama's) makes me suspicious.

I'm open to new information, with enough time to digest it.

And I don't think it's irrational to be tentatively opposed to something you know little about - you look at history of similar things. And consider how much information you do or don't have, whether more is forthcoming, how much time it looks like you'll get to consider it, and whether you feel pressured.

Hmmmm.... This is starting to sound like the last time I had to buy a car.

[Jack Rabbit]

85. Wrong place

See above.

[Thespian2]

88. Thanks for the link...

I believe Obama is now about neck-deep in Bovine Excrement...

[woo me with science]

99. Corporate government is corrupt government.

Corporate politicians lie. And they create elaborate propaganda machines to lie for them.

[woo me with science]

100. This belongs on the Greatest Page. Actually, it should be pinned to the top of the board

to remind us of the incessant, lying propaganda that has become standard MO of our corrupt government.

Corporations by definition have no interest in representing anyone but themselves. Ditto for corporate governments. They exist to grow their own power and profit. They manipulate and advertise to do that. They build propaganda machines, with utter contempt for the people they claim to represent.

That's why we don't get honest political messaging from corporate politicians.

[SusanCalvin]

105. Corporations, grown too big, are a cancer.

Needs to be treated.

[imthevicar]

106. The TPP is Trash at best,

Or as I prefer to call it The TOILET PAPER PREROGATIVE.

[whereisjustice]

111. And they are here, aren't they. Their day job must be writing Hallmark greeting cards.

[JonLP24]

125. I've seen some very fishy posts

One where the poster is obviously pretending to be "new to the TPP debate" and was posting information & still pretending to be undecided until I challenge the poster is so full on TPP going as far to say TPP "fixes NAFTA".

[ucrdem]

136. Hidden hand discovers hidden hand, ep. #467.

[BainsBane]

137. The DUers who disagree with you are real people

real Democrats. I happen to disagree with them on TPP as well, but I'm not going to deny they are any less human or real because of it. They may pick up information from that source or simply believe the President. You know the President is a Democrat. I understand that may come as a shock to people who believe that Democrat is not defined by voting behavior but by agreement with you and you alone, but that is not the case.

There are some good, informative threads about TPP. This is not one of them. It's more of the ongoing effort to target Democratic voters as the enemy. It's that kind of division that makes this place so ineffective for any kind of political organization. Now I happen to oppose TPP, but I find this sort of tactic ugly. If I were to believe people like you, the Democratic party would be composed of only 200 people, some of whom have sworn not to vote for the Democratic nominee if 2016 if they don't get their way.

[Maedhros]

178. From my perspective, some Democratic voters ARE the enemy.

When Democratic voters support destructive policies, essentially simply because they are being pushed by Democratic politicians, it results in grave harm to American workers.

We see this kind of behavior on numerous fronts: the TPP, blanket surveillance, drone murder, elective war. If rank-and-file Democrats won't reign in Democratic politicians, who will?

[BainsBane]

180. Good to see you admit it

and Yes, I have the distinct impression that there is a clear effort to make the party more exclusive, more middle- and upper-middle class, more white and more male oriented. Those who care about the issues that affect their daily lives are denounced as less by the privileged who think all that matters is their issues. It's good to finally see you admit it. Now you just have to face the fact that you are in fact targeting the poor and disenfranchised as the enemy, people who don't have the privilege to prioritize the issues you do because they are focused on simply getting by. I don't want a party that represents the concerns of the bourgeoisie to the exclusion of the poor, working class, and people of color. Nor do I find helpful people such as yourself who treat them as the enemy because they lack the privilege to focus on the issues you care about.

[Maedhros]

183. How am I targeting the poor and disenfranchised by opposing the TPP?

By opposing wars of choice? By opposing blanket surveillance? The poor and disenfranchised are disproportionately affected by these things.

I find your analysis deeply flawed.

[BainsBane]

186. Not by opposing TPP

but by seeing as the enemy those who disagree with you. Think about it. If you're a poor, single mom, you're worried about how to make ends meet, where the kids are, how to get them to school, etc... You may never have given much thought to TPP, and perhaps you respect the president and believe him on the issue. I happen to agree with you on all of those issues (though I think drones less the issue than war itself); however, I know my experience is not the only one. A lot of people don't have time to read or think much about TPP, drone strikes, or that sort of thing. They are far more focused on their daily lives. Some people on this site have marked out those issues as THE only ones that count, and go around insulting people who see things differently as "Third Way," "DINOs," etc... The issues you list are not the ones that are most present in people's daily lives. Now some of them clearly can influence daily life down the line, but many people aren't in position to see or think about that because they are so focused on just getting by.

Additionally, some people of color, women, and LGBT Democrats may have other priorities. I have seen gay men on this site insulted as being aligned with Goldman Sachs for supporting Clinton. The fact is Clinton has built up strong support among the LGBT community and they feel they can trust her. I have seen African American members leave this site or be alert stalked over their focus on issues of racism or because they are targeted for supporting Obama. They are insulted as DINOS, even though they represent just a small handful of members who come from the single most reliable Democratic voting demographic.

The prevailing views on this site reflect the experiences and lives and those who hold them, and this site is largely white, more affluent, and older than the general population. it's not that there is anything wrong with advancing those views, but when people hostility target and insult other Democrats with different priorities, I find that problematic, particularly when they are clearly operating from class- and race-based assumptions about what is acceptable policy and thought.

[Maedhros]

187. In another post, I said that the TPP will probably not affect my job at all.

Yet I still oppose it 100% because it's not all about me.

When someone is willing to excuse truly horrendous policies - such as drone killing, elective war, blanket surveillance, criminalization of journalism, indefinite detention, and execution without due process - because the politician behind those policies supports one's personal cause, I find it troubling. These policies are literally killing people.

[stonecutter357]

142. Nobody can take Republicans seriously anymore,

Nobody can take Republicans seriously anymore, their extreme hyperbole makes everything they say meaningless.

[B Calm]

153. Most DUers pushing TPP work overseas.

Some are even outsourcing our jobs.

[raouldukelives]

164. K&R nt

[blackspade]

175. The sockpuppets are out in force on his one.

Talk about 'job killing legislation.'

[colsohlibgal]

179. I Guessed As Much

Not hard to figure out who was up to that here. I'm sure Third Way operatives have been busy on most if not all left leaning sites.

[rug]

196. Real Jobs

http://www.realpcaj.org/

[Jesus Malverde]

197. Thanks mang...nt