I refuse to let cynicism make me bitter..

[MineralMan]

I will continue to do what I can to make the world better, even if it is in tiny steps. Cynicism improves nothing. I will not let a quest for perfection sour my optimism. I will recognize that incremental positive changes are preferable to negative changes.

[Sherman A1]

1. Well Said!

[MineralMan]

2. Thank you very much.

[Agschmid]

3. Fairness is important, some don't appear to get that.

[MineralMan]

4. Absolutely.

[NYC_SKP]

5. When I see a cat stalking a song bird, I make a lot of noise.

Sometimes it goes away and other times it doesn't.

I don't see a lot of cynicism around here but there's plenty of bitter.

What I see are members pointing out the hazards involved in nominating a friend of multi-national corporations to represent our brand.

And I join them.

[whereisjustice]

22. +1, he won't be happy until the canary stops annoying him with all that chirping.

[Rex]

47. .

[polichick]

6. "Incremental" change - code for scraps tossed the people by corporate reps.

[MineralMan]

7. It is not code for anything.

Good things are simply good things. My wife's cousin was able to marry his partner of 25 years. I helped pass MN' s marriage equality law. Positive change. I know several people who can now buy health insurance who could not before. Positive change.

Cynics see only the negative. Cynicism clouds vision. I refuse to fall into that trap.

[polichick]

8. Fools refuse to see the con.

[MineralMan]

9. I disagree completely with that.

Clearly.

[Major Hogwash]

13. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

And there has been way too many of them posting here for too many years.

[polichick]

15. For too many years Dems have refused to see how their party has...

sold its soul to corporate puppet masters, falling for slick talking con men, and gratefully accepting incremental change while the country is pillaged and the planet destroyed.

Sometimes righteous anger is necessary.

[Major Hogwash]

20. " . . . and the planet destroyed."

[F4lconF16]

35. ...are you kidding?

See, there's this thing called climate change.

It's going to hit sometime in earnest. When it does, we are in serious trouble.

Have you been ignoring the reports from the IPCC? From the UN? From the vast research done for over 50 years now on how we are so thoroughly screwing ourselves over that we may never be able to recover?

Do you deny that the global average of CO2 concentrations just hit over 400ppm?

Are you a climate change denier?

If so, you're in the wrong place, buddy. We're in serious trouble, and it's going to take some serious change, and NOW, to have any chance of doing anything about it.

[Liberalynn]

40. This+1,000

[Art_from_Ark]

74. It's not just CO2, either

Throw in deforestation, overurbanization, overfishing, careless disposal of toxic chemicals, water pollution, and a host of other man-made ills, and you've got a recipe for disaster.

[F4lconF16]

80. It's unbelievable how much we have set into motion.

This planet will be forever changed because of what we've done. Pretty crazy when you think about it--this is utter devastation. We are a major event on this world. And if there's something that will kill us off as a species, this is about as likely as it gets.

[Major Hogwash]

75. "Are you a climate change denier?"

It's too late!!

[F4lconF16]

81. I simply cannot believe that you guys still exist in the Democratic Party.

Man, this is worse than I thought. We are really screwed.

Go do just about any amount of climate research and realize that the changing climate we're experiencing now is largely from processes started in motion a while ago. They are just now beginning to hit in earnest, and it will not abate. The amount of technological innovation to prevent or reverse it would require tremendous cooperation internationally among peaceful governments. Which basically means, yes, it's about too late.

My future is at stake, my life and health, and you still think this is a joke.

[Major Hogwash]

82. Here, go read this ---

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6651042

It's scarier than whatever it is you're talking about.

[F4lconF16]

83. Not gonna play. Bye. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. Yup all this is a joke to you

Thanks for the confirmation

[Major Hogwash]

110. What confirmation?

Be specific.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. That it is a joke to you

I thought I was clear. So let me repeat this for you. THIS IS A JOKE TO YOU.

[Major Hogwash]

131. See post #5.

I pet the cat!

[Mojorabbit]

129. Yes and it is as sad as it gets.

I am very cynical and have little hope for the future because there are so many people like this out there. We will never make the needed changes in time (if it is not already too late) because of them.

[F4lconF16]

130. Yeah...

Wish I had a solution. I think we're screwed, honestly. I'll fight to the death trying to fix it, but...I am not optimistic.

Kinda hope I at least make it to 50. That'd be nice. Interested to see what the world looks like 30 years from now.

[rhett o rick]

166. Your rebuttal is sorely lacking. nm

[BainsBane]

66. This post would be an example of national mythology

In my opinion. I agree the party is controlled by capital. What I disagree with on is that there is anything recent about it, that the party has "sold it's soul.". We live in a capitalist state. Its national mythology tells you the government is of the people by the people, but at no point in history has that been true. The Founding Fathers were the wealthiest men of their generation. They were landed gentry. They created a state that represented their interests and distanced government from the people. The nature of the moneyed interests have changed from landholding elites and slaveholders in the early Republic, to industrialists by the turn of the 20th century, and to global finance capital today. Yet throughout all of that the state has served the interests of capital. The party hasn't solid it's soul; it never had a soul apart from capital. Rather the fact that the floodgates have been opened on campaign finance have merely exposed, rendered more naked, the relationship between capital and government.

Righteous anger is fine. But to enact change one needs a plan. Words and desire are not enough. I personally don't see profound change as possible within the capitalist system, but we could become more like a Northern European democracy, which would seem to satisfy most around here. To do that we need, in my view, public financing of elections.

[1StrongBlackMan]

85. +1,000 ...

Well stated.

[polichick]

93. Perhaps the country, as settled by white invaders, has always been soulless...

As a person of Native American ancestry, it's easy for me to see it that way.

Still, I've watched the parties merge and grow ever more disgusting in their "America-for-sale" approach to governing. Of course nothing will change without public financing of elections - and a paradigm shift away from soulless profit-taking toward meaning. Which means a move away from capitalism. Are the people ready to fight for that? Can they be dragged away from their numbing shopping and toys?

[Bobbie Jo]

84. Crackpots see "the con" in everything.

[polichick]

95. "everything" - nope, just the bullshit, lies, manipulations, secrets...

Burying heads in the sand is foolish - and terrible for the generations who follow.

[Bobbie Jo]

99. Right.

One declarative exaggeration deserves another.

[treestar]

87. Ad hominem

not response to MM's prior post. You simply called him a fool. Logical fallacy.

[polichick]

94. Obviously, it was a response to the poster's claims about "cynics."

[rhett o rick]

10. I rec'd this OP because I do appreciate your optimism. I do have a couple of comments for what they

are worth.

"I will not let a quest for perfection sour my optimism. " Not sure what you mean there. I hope it isn't a shot at the quest to improve our lives. I am not seeking "perfection". Far from it. The 99% have some inalienable rights that are being trampled on. Incremental changes will not be enough. Love it if they were, but we've past that tipping point. No use rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

We need drastic change. Those that don't recognize that must not deal on a daily basis with the poverty all around. Children going hungry as Goldman-Fracking-Sachs drains our resources. How many children are we going to let slide into poverty? How many bridges are we going to let crumble into the rivers? Our Pres is playing patty-cake with the head of Nike. How to increase Nike profits and throw more children into poverty. Do I sound bitter? Children going hungry and not getting adequate health care and Goldman-Sachs and ??? are having martini's laughing at how fracking is destroying our water supplies. Fracking is making huge profits for the oil lobby and Obama is cool with that. (he said it's the bridge to our energy future). He didn't say at the expense of our water supply. Nestle is tickled to death to sell us our water.

[MineralMan]

11. I do not see any path to drastic change that will not create

even greater misery for the already miserable. I do not believe such a path exists. So, I will help where I can to relieve misery, even on a small scale. I cannot support any change that creates additional misery.

[rhett o rick]

14. Our founders were faced with the same dilema. No one wants war because it will add misery.

But some times one has to fight for freedom and liberty. If we don't do something drastic, it will continue to get worse.

[Major Hogwash]

25. To paraphrase Jack Nicholson in "As Good as It Gets" . . . .

Last edited Sun May 10, 2015, 10:17 PM - Edit history (1)

People who refer to the founding fathers should shampoo my crotch!

You're beginning to sound like one of them . . . one of those tea party members, dude.

How many founding fathers were Black?
How many founding fathers were Mexican-Americans?
How many founding fathers were Hispanic?
How many founding fathers were Japanese?
How many founding fathers were Hawaiian?
How many founding fathers were women?

No, wait, whut? . . . no founding mothers?

Shiiiiitttttt, that's some seriously fucked up shit by 2015 standards!

Happy Mother's Day, dude.

[sheshe2]

30. You!

[Major Hogwash]

79. I haven't seen that one before.

Where do you get all these funny gifs?

[sheshe2]

97. TBH~

Seabeyond sent that one to me....

However, I just type a buzz word ie laugh gif

then voila~

#laughing%20woman%20gif%20499x375

[MineralMan]

118. Nice giggle, Madame Ambassador!

[sheshe2]

120. Grand Lady, wasn't she MineralMan.

Amazing what she achieved in one lifetime. Brava!

PS...I had a Shirley Temple Doll.

[MineralMan]

123. My sister had one, too.

Lovely person as a child and an adult, I think.

[jtuck004]

67. Those "Newly Moral 2015" are profiting from the genocide of perhaps 50 million Native Americans

and, frankly, haven't provided us with a Constitution that's any better than those old white guys - and their wives and friends, who are disrespected by association in that diatribe, because without them those Founding Fathers wouldn't have been able to accomplish what they did. You disrespect their work. That's too bad, but it shows my how to value any statement from you in the future.

Perhaps the Newly Moral - 2015 are too far above the rest to see the irony of their statements, looking down from that High Horse of Self-Righteousness...


Here.

Happy Mother's Day to you as well.

[Major Hogwash]

76. What are you talking about?

[rhett o rick]

101. Nice rant but I never mentioned "fathers". Your post had nothing to do with what I posted.

And I wonder why some here think it's appropriate to call others names in lieu of actually addressing the issues.

[treestar]

88. We're not going to have a Civil War again.

Bernie doesn't call for that either.

[rhett o rick]

102. I do admire your certainty. Certain that you know what's going to happen. I didn't mention

Civil War. Our Founders revolted against the Tyranny of the Oligarchy of the East India Company and their puppet government.

We may have to again revolt against the tyranny of the Oligarchs. But some are afraid of that and want whistle-blowers, journalists, and protestors silenced so as not to anger the Oligarch gods. They long to continue the status quo, ignoring the facts that more and more of our children live in poverty.

[treestar]

105. What other form could it take?

You didn't use the term Civil War but it's a fair interpretation of your statement. Nobody wants one, but we will have to fight for freedom and justice. Refer to the Founders who engaged in a war for that purpose. We have to do something drastic. What other things could this drastic thing be?

[rhett o rick]

106. I don't want violence and hope we can straighten things out peacefully but that's

really no longer possible IMO. I think we've crossed the Rubicon. A number of scholars are actually saying it out loud that we no longer have a functioning democracy, but instead have a plutocratic oligarchy. As we lose more and more freedoms and liberties every day we have people preaching "incremental change" crap. I don't see that the Oligarchy is going to relinquish any of their power. I think those that want to hang on to their precious "status quo" are blinded to the poverty taking over this country.

[treestar]

107. I just don't agree

We are not losing freedoms every day.

We can wake up and make the money not count so much in elections. Start paying attention.

And what's going to happen, now that the Rubicon is crossed?

[rhett o rick]

108. Why don't YOU tell us what you see in our future? You disagree with me, fine, but what do you

think?

[MineralMan]

117. So, are you ready to take up arms?

The founding fathers were. Calls for revolution on internet discussion forums ring very hollow, in my opinion. Sorry, but I've heard all that before. There will be no revolution, so I'm working on feasible things, one step at a time.

[rhett o rick]

125. I am disappointed in your attempts to misrepresent what I said. But I understand your frustration.

It must be difficult to defend the status quo when our country is collapsing around us.

I do not call for violence. I never have and never will. I believe that the Populist supporters want a peaceful transition back to a democracy. And are hoping that Sen Sanders will help. But those that want to continue on the path to fascism, support the continuation of the status quo and the ideology of the Third Way.

The Plutocratic Oligarchs that run this country are not about to relinquish their powers. In fact they seek to increase their power by reducing our power. The NSA/CIA Black State are gathering information, in violation of our Constitution, on all of us. They have some of the naive believe that it will make them safer. That's bullcrap of course.

Sooner or later the poor of the world will stand up to the Oligarchs and it will be too late for patty-cake. They already have in other countries, but I guess some here are content with the status quo until the poverty level reaches what? 50%? In my community, it is already 51%. More and more people are losing their homes to the banksters like Goldman-Sachs, one of the Oligarch Gods.

[MineralMan]

126. So you have no plan at all?

Just words and cynicism. Sorry.

[Major Hogwash]

134. What's wrong with his plan now?

Geez, it's not like he is out distributing flyers for Rand Paul!!

[rhett o rick]

135. There are two factions here and the conservative faction has no plans. They have no stands on

major issues other that "we worship whatever Obama and Clinton say." How many posts can you post w/o actually making a commitment? You like to ask questions, but never seem to like to commit. The 99% desperately need change and you guys, not only don't support change, you ridicule those that do. Fracking is destroying our environment, but do any of the anti-progressives commit one way or other? Free Trade agreements will destroy our working class. Do you care? No, not as long as Obama is pushing it. Personality over substance.

[Major Hogwash]

136. Oh, I support President Obama.

You like to ask questions, but never seem to like to commit.

[rhett o rick]

137. I hope you are justly rewarded for your blind loyalty. nm

[Major Hogwash]

138. I'm not blinded by loyalty, rhett.

I'm just smarter than you are.
Go ahead and complain about the future.

The future that has not happened yet.

[rhett o rick]

143. Funny that you think it's necessary to state "I'm just smarter than you are. "

You may well be, but it makes me wonder when you find it necessary to repeatedly post it. Maybe you think that those that are not as smart as you should "sit down and shut up". Seems like a common theme with some here. Not sure that attitude is a good fit with "politically liberal". Just sayin'.

[zappaman]

145. "Vote for HRC and let the country slide right into fascism"

I guess if Clinton wins, we won't be able to post here anymore since the internet and sites like this will all be shut down.
If she wins, it's farewell my friend!

[rhett o rick]

149. Are you afraid to fight for your freedoms and liberties? Are you fine with the

status quo with the poverty rates increasing, and infrastructure crumbling? Do you look to Goldman-Sachs as your inspiration? Hoping for some trickle-down?

If Clinton wins we will continue on the path we are on now. Seems you are ok with that. I guess there is comfort in siding with the Oligarch-Gods.

[zappaman]

150. Electing HRC will slide the US into fascism

Bookmarking your ridiculous statement.

[rhett o rick]

155. We will certainly continue in that direction. But I'm guessing you would embrace the comfort

of a little fascism. Kinda like that Big Brother taking care of you.

The status quo is killing the lower classes and we need change. Change that HRC isn't supporting.

[zappaman]

158. "Vote for HRC and let the country slide right into fascism"

I don't know who I will be voting for since we are a long way off from the primaries and general election.
But I'm sure Clinton supporters will be happy to know that a vote for her is like a vote for fascism.

[rhett o rick]

164. You ridicule my argument in lieu of addressing it. If you look up the 10 steps to

fascism you should recognize that we are moving in that direction. Goldman-Sachs and the Big Money would like nothing better. They have unlimited resources to continue that movement. H. Clinton may support social issues, but if we don't make a major change to the way Big Money is controlling our government, all the social changes we've made can go out the window. How many more "bank failures" can the lower classes afford before we are all living in poverty?

If you disagree, why don't you provide a counter argument?

[zappaman]

174. You don't have an argument, my friend.

What you have is an incredible, absolutely fucking ludicrous assertion.

"Vote for HRC and let the country slide right into fascism"

Want me to counter it?
Ok.

Vote for HRC and the country will NOT slide right into fascism.

I don't blame you for running away from your laughable assertion.
I would to.

[rhett o rick]

179. Once again you prove that you have nothing but ridicule. What is sad is that you must

not give a crap about the fact that 22% of American children live in brutal poverty and 45% live in low income homes. I see it every day. In my community the poverty rate is 51%. But that means nothing to those that view Goldman-Sachs as a god.

I bet you believe in trickle-down. Support Goldman-Sachs and they will trickle on us.

I see you are back to using the rude emoticon. Someone will be very proud of you.

[zappaman]

187. Would you say people that vote for HRC are fascists?

Or just want the country to slide right into fascism?

[rhett o rick]

188. Do you not have anything substantive to say? nm

[zappaman]

190. Do you?

Cuz equating voting for HRC with fascism doesn't seem very substantive to me!
Laughable for sure though.

[rhett o rick]

192. If you use my words, then I will stand behind them. Changing my words to try to harass me

isn't very "politically liberal". What I said, not that it matters to you, "Vote for HRC and let the country slide right into fascism.

We are headed toward fascism. Not saying that Clinton is a fascist, I am saying that she won't stop the slide into fascism. And just so you know, American fascism won't involve Hitler, if that's what you think.

I assume you saw the Princeton study that concluded that America was no longer a functioning democracy. That we now live under a Plutocratic Oligarchy.

"How American Oligarchs Are Pushing America to the Brink of Fascism" http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026187842

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. You are correct actually but not precisely for the reasons you think

we already have the markers of a police state. The words "we are in a police state" were actually used by a lawyer last Thursday, in a local San Diego Court, during his arguments during a local case involving California criminal code 182.5

Large media in San Diego, for the most part, has not gone in utter detail on how this criminal code works, but the DA has decided not to refile after the Court handed it to her again. Why? Well, large and small media are covering this, and the community became really united.

Anyhoo, this lawyer was talking about how increasingly people are getting quite a bit of liability for exercising their freedom of association and speech. Granted, right now it is the people none pays attention to, but this is how shit like this is tested. At the edges of society.

Gets better. have you ever read Democracy Inc? If you have not, I recommend you do. You are correct, this is not classic fascism, but it is a form of totalitarianism. I know some folks like to taught it up, but it started to take form in the 1980s, and it has not turned around yet.

This is also why this morning I had the exclusive for a news story involving the effects of NAFTA, in front of the Mexican consulate. You might have heard of San Quintin and strawberries, or perhaps more likely, you have not. I posted an article here but I simply do not expect most people in DU, even those who are about 170 miles from those fields to care. Last Saturday it got even worst, when police assaulted people for daring to demand better wages, living conditions, and chiefly respect. Though I did get clarification on where the three dead came from. None died, but three were unconscious and bloody after they were hit by rubber bullets on the side of their heads. For some reason they were unconscious and not moving. It happens. 70 others were injured as well though.

Don't worry, you will not see that on CNN, though if that assault by police forces had occurred in Caracas, CNN would have gone full on breaking news. (They kind of trailed in Mexico, but they tend to do that anyhoo)

That is also a marker of a Totalitarian state.

Will Bernie, let's dream big for a second, be able to reverse it? I don't believe so, but at least he is willing to try, The rest, well the past is prologue. Why I achieved that state of zen a while ago... it really does not matter who you vote for. As long as you do it to remain in practice that is. Because right now it really does not matter in the large picture. When I was 18 and voting for the first time in Mexico City, we knew that. Well, I am back to that state of zen.

Yeah, voting for republicans means that road to hell is going on the the fast lane, but the others, it is the slow lane.

But you are right to chuckle, this is not classic fascism. You are very correct on that one.

[rhett o rick]

159. I notice that there is a certain group that use that emoticon as their signature line.

Use it kinda as a laugh in your face meme. Whose idea was that?

By the way, here is an OP that you might have overlooked. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251407389

It's a matter of calculus that one can't support Wall-Frackin-Street and the 99% both.

[zappaman]

161. Maybe you can photoshop Clinton as Hitler to REALLY make your wonderful point!

Or save the work since I would bet some RWers have already done that.

[rhett o rick]

163. I notice that you seem to be afraid to commit yourself on actual issues. Just use

ad hominem attacks like above. I hate to think it's an attempt at intimidation to shut off discussions you don't like.

[hrmjustin]

173. The third way boogeywoman is coming to get you.

She comes to take liberals souls away for her devilish schemes.



for those who can't take a joke.

[zappaman]

175. I guess you want fascism in this country!

[hrmjustin]

176. You have found me out and you must pay!

[zappaman]

177. The single silliest thing I've ever read on DU!

[hrmjustin]

178. Maybe the rapture will get us first.

[William769]

193. ...

[sheshe2]

194. Bravo William.

[MannyGoldstein]

19. A new New Deal

It worked before, it would work today.

[F4lconF16]

36. Disagree.

It clearly DID NOT work.

First, the people it did work for were almost exclusively straight white men.

Second, the primary cause of economic growth was our international status at the end of WWII. Thomas Piketty's book does an excellent job of discussing that, though I disagree with his rather optimistic Keynesian conclusions.

Third, 70 years later and we're almost (I'd argue we already are) in a new gilded age. We've been heading there steadily since the economic boom in the 50s. Something's not right.

Fourth, our entire economic and political system was designed by people who explicitly set out to protect property rights for the elites of the time, as well as creating stable oppressions and divisions in the working class. They have done phenomenally well. The fact that we haven't had a revolution is only because FDR was able to hop in and save the elites from themselves. He was part of the corporate and economic elite that managed to prevent a total collapse by feeding just enough to a new middle class to gain their support. He was not the hero that people think he was.

Fifth, climate change will not be fixed by a new New Deal. That's a huge limiting factor on the growth of capitalism, which depends on unrestrained expansion to survive. You ignore that issue at your own peril.

Sixth, a new New Deal does nothing to address the massive social unrest we feel today due to the oppression of women and minorities. We need a solution that comprehensively addresses both.

I'd recommend the book "The Democrats: A Critical History" by Lance Selfa. It exposes the facts that the Democratic Party, despite it's occasional success, has historically been the stabilizing party for a constantly crashing economic system propped up by support of a self-interested middle class. Radical left movements have been the only thing enacting real, significant, and positive change for years now.

[MannyGoldstein]

69. Unemployment halved and GDP grew 8%+ yearly

during FDR's first term. He stupidly went for austerity in his second term, but soon realized that was a bad idea and became a full-fledged Liberal. That began a 40-year rise in the 99%'s standards of living.

While FDR turned his head from bad things, particularly involving Southern Democrats, I believe that it's generally thought that the rights (and lives) of women and PoC advanced during FDR's tenure in the White House. He appointed the first-ever woman Cabinet member, and she was no figurehead. He banned racial discrimination in hiring by the federal government.

I'm not suggesting that we go back in time with regard to social issues, of course. Think of climate change as our era's WWII - we won that one, we can win this one.

[F4lconF16]

70. Mmmm but the fundamental issues with the system were still there, no?

Because that's what we see boiling over now. How do you propose to change those massive issues in society? Perhaps this is where we split in our ideas, as I don't think that the system we have is in any way viable. I'm fairly confident it never was, and was in fact never designed to be viable for the working class.

[Fumesucker]

12. It's often not obvious whether any given change is going to be positive or negative

And changes are often both positive and negative at once and weighting the positives versus the negatives is where judgement comes in.

Do you treat your work that way, just good enough? Or do you strive for the best you can do all the time?

I do several things that I put a lot of effort into getting as perfect as I possibly can, finding ways around the limitations of your tools is part of the drill.

Thirty years ago I envied my kids the world they were coming into, now I'm aghast and undone at what I have bequeathed them. Ironically it was the way DU changed when Obama was elected that really made me see how things were. All of a sudden some people who were virulently against the war started justifying it. Since then I've watched the same sort of thing play out enough times to know many of the Democrats are no better at having a self consistent moral framework than the Republicans. Truth be told I know conservatives who are more self consistent than some of the supposed liberals here, I think they're wrong about a lot of things but they do try to maintain a consistent moral standard and I positively like and admire some of them who make a real contribution to the world in terms of blood, sweat and tears, life and death.

[MineralMan]

119. My work? You mean how I make my living?

Well, right now, I'm writing the content for a revamp of a website for a lawn care company. I have several goals to accomplish with that content. They will all be met, because I'm putting my best efforts into the project and have multiple years of success in meeting such goals. I'll finish the project tomorrow. Three months from now, that business will have 15-20% more business and will have hired new employees. It will have #1 Google rankings for the searches I targeted.

So, yes I give my work my very best efforts. Why would I do otherwise.

[F4lconF16]

16. That's nice.

I'm done with incremental change. I don't have the time. I and others my age (and really, many, many others) are going to be here when climate change kicks into high gear.

In the streets, blacks, the homeless and poor, and the mentally ill are getting assaulted on a daily basis. They're being incarcerated for years and years because of worthless drug policies designed to oppress them. They don't have time for incremental change.

I'm sure the thousands (if not millions) of dead and wounded in the middle east that we are responsible for appreciate your optimism. I'm sure they're just fine with the fact that it's taken us over a decade to get our guns out of their faces...kindofnotreally. The children that we have made fear the blue sky they live under actually love us, don'tcha know?

I'll bet that the women who are losing all their protections under the law are just fine with incremental change. Not like all that incremental change is being trashed before our eyes because your incremental change was worse than useless elsewhere.

Our education system, our infrastructure, our social safety nets--those are all falling apart, but hey guys, it's okay! We'll fix it through incremental change. It's worked really well over the last 50 years.

Our political system wasn't devised by the uber-rich owners of capital back in the beginnings of our country's history and specifically designed to oppress and divide the labor class--nah, we have our Founding (and Benevolent) Father (Figure) democracy(tm)!

America!



You go ahead with your incremental change. It's somehow managed to get us almost nowhere except on a few issues, and even those, barely so. I'm not playing this game. You play the game, you lose. They're winning right now. Your incremental positive changes are pathetic in comparison to the total dismantlement of even an appearance of democracy in this country. (And I say that recognizing full well how far we have come on issues like gay marriage--something that even now is being attacked. Sad part is, that's just marriage. Not even equality.)

Every moment you don't take to the streets to fight this, every moment you waste waiting for that next little bit of change is a moment that those with wealth and power are laughing at you.

Call me bitter, call me pessimistic. I don't care. I live in the reality of the world that is literally hell on earth for millions. I live in the reality of a world that doesn't pretend we're somehow going to be just fine when in fact we are deathly ill. I live in a world where I don't have the privilege to say, "Wait." I live in a world where perfection isn't the goal, but human decency is.

I don't have the time. Neither do billions around the globe.

I am not bitter--I'm fucking angry. Really, really fucking angry, and I burn with the smoldering heat of oppression that will eventually ignite a firestorm.

I'm not fighting the symptoms of a sick system. I'm fighting the entire corrupt oppressive system itself.

It's time for a goddamn revolution, and I'm proud to say I will stand in solidarity with men and women around the globe. I will speak up and our voices combined will be heard, like so many movements before us.

Hear us cry,

Enough!

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. some folks are confusing bitterness and cynicism with anger

[Phlem]

32. +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

yep.

[NYC_SKP]

71. Word. And when the pitchforks and torches come out, they'll say there must be a Barbecue Party!

You nailed it Nadin.

It's pretty dismissive to call this bitterness and cynicism.

[Major Hogwash]

77. What is your sauce on that? Do you have any links to back that up?

I don't care who thinks I can't cook beans on a barbecue, I'm still going to try to lay them individually on the grill, anyway!!
Damn the torpedoes, they're deep fat-fried!

[NYC_SKP]

156. Freedom Fries!

Got 'em at Walmart, super cheap!

They have a special on Chinese Chicken, chickens grown here, shipped there for processing, shipped back.

MOAR JOBS!

[rhett o rick]

151. They will hide, afraid to anger the Oligarch-Gods. They fear change and are afraid to fight

for their freedoms and liberties.

[NYC_SKP]

162. I fear that they just don't know lines of bullshit when they hear them.

In this video, in which SOS Clinton is hailing the TPP as a Godsend for people everywhere and says, 8:00 in, that it will:

"Create better jobs, higher wages, better working conditions, including for women, migrant workers, others"

This is how a salesperson works: You ramble on a lot, use facts and figures and smile a lot and wherever you see a chance to pitch it to some sympathetic demographic, "women and migrant workers" (insert emotional sigh), you do that.

Like you fucking care.

Fuck that shit.

Those women and migrant workers are being exploited, SHE IS PROMOTING EXPLOITATION OF THE VERY PEOPLE SHE'S SUGGESTING WILL BE HELPED!

Talk me down, Rhett.

[rhett o rick]

165. I think it's worse than not recognizing the bullcrap. They have attached themselves

to an authoritarian idol and are willing to ignore the bullcrap. If they believed in the benefits of the TPP, they would be providing that argument. But for the most part, they ignore the discussions with the exception of the ad hominem attacks on those that dare to think for themselves.

[malokvale77]

38. Your post brought me to tears.

This line in particular:

¨I am not bitter--I'm fucking angry. Really, really fucking angry, and I burn with the smoldering heat of oppression that will eventually ignite a firestorm.¨

Thank you for speaking the truth that so many of us feel.

[F4lconF16]

49. I am glad my words touched you.

It's not often I get the honor of doing so for someone else. Thank you.

[840high]

64. You spoke for me. Thanks.

[MrMickeysMom]

68. Yes….

It's time.

It sure is… Many of us keep lining up because we are ridding ourselves of the WORST thing - the fear of celebrating no more than incremental change as the goal moves totally out of sight.

[polly7]

73. +1000 I think you speak for many all around the world. nt.

[sufrommich]

17. I couldn't agree more and well said.

[jeff47]

18. Do not confuse "bitter" with those pushing for larger steps.

You're happy with small steps. Others are pushing for larger steps. They aren't bitter, they feel your steps are inadequate.

And they make it much easier to take your small steps. You are now the compromise.

It's exactly how our country got dragged to the right. The crazy conservatives weren't bitter. They just knew where those little steps would be leading.

[whereisjustice]

21. TPP isn't a incremental positive change. It is several orders of magnitude of "fuck the workers".

There is nothing more cynical than accepting TPP as a "let's pass it and fix it later, I trust Obama" meme.

Everything about TPP smells like the pile of shit it is for workers. Meanwhile for 1% are licking their chops at $0.50 an hour in Vietnam while jacking up college tuition at American schools 15% a year.

If anything is incremental it is the erosion of human rights, civil liberties, wages, benefits and wealth of the non-rich in America because of fucked up legislation like TPP.


That isn't being cynical, that's paying attention and demanding something better than the status quo.

[DJ13]

181. +1

It destroys our wages and surrenders our entire legal and regulatory system to the god of profit.

[Martin Eden]

24. "quest for perfection"

I don't know what that means, but I suspect it's aimed at DUers who demand their elected representatives do a better job of representing the interests of the 99%.

Cynicism can be a healthy and accurate assessment of the real world we live in, as long as it is accompanied by a passion for the possibility of a better future and a determination to contribute towards making that happen.

Settling for "incremental positive changes" in the face of long term destructive trends can be the equivalent of being content with one step forward and two steps back.

We have to operate in the realm of the possible, but if we set our sights too low we lose sight of what is necessary.


There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?
- Robert Kennedy

[woo me with science]

26. Third Way Blase.

The smearing of dissent as "bitterness" and the bland lecturing to be patient. A stale Third Way tactic and talking point to try to suppress necessary pushback to predatory policies.

See this thread:

JFK: What it means to be Liberal
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6652893

In JFK's own words:

[font size=3]"Our responsibility is not discharged by announcement of virtuous ends. Our responsibility is to achieve these objectives with social invention, with political skill, and executive vigor."[/font size]

Empty Third Way claims to care about the 99 percent, while bleating lies about "incrementalism" and fellating the One Percent...

That con game does not fly anymore.

[bettyellen]

31. "Fellating....bleating" lol, yeah no bitterness there. HA

[woo me with science]

37. Americans have a right to be angry at the looting of our democracy by corporatists,

at the purchase of our political systems by Wall Street, and at the shameless replacement of honest political messaging with corporate-manufactured manipulation and lies.

We live in a magnificently funded propaganda state now. The problem with it is that it incessantly tries to sell us a narrative that is completely inconsistent with what we observe with our own eyes from our corporate politicians, every single day.

The propaganda doesn't fly anymore. And I won't be kicking these Third Way talking points to the top again.

[bettyellen]

56. Politics has always been corrupted and favored the wealthy,

The wealthy, the pale, and those with penises. And not in that order.

Seriously, it's as if you think you have stumbled upon the thing that many of us have known our entire lives. I guess since I have been working twice as hard for 2/3 the pay for a bit too long, and because of it- I've learned to spread the blame around. It's not just the "oligarchs", it's many of my peers that have fucked me over.

[Phlem]

34. Some people can't let go.

For some, change is scary but that is life. I try to influence change and embrace it rather than fight it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. I would repeat what a lot of folks here

have already told you about poverty and infrastructure. I will only tell you this, the young have no time and they are fucking tired of older white men, and it is older white men mostly from where they sit. screwing their future.

I can point to the women and minorities in the bunch, but they see angry white men... in both the government and the corporate structure throwing their future away.

Yeah, yeah, they are young... and they will change the world (you once maybe were that idealistic, I know I still hold to it)... but you know what? If they do not succeed in some major changes, they will inherit quite the hell. This is not me saying that, or for that matter them saying that (though they get it) it is the ecological degradation that they will inherit, the climate changing, and oceans rising.

You are not going to be here for the worst of it. Neither will I. They will. And what needs to happen is far from slow or incremental. We are quickly reaching the point of no return.

[malokvale77]

41. Beautifully said nadin (nt)

[F4lconF16]

50. Thank you for getting it.

Seriously, it makes a difference. I'm sure you know that, but eh. Doesn't hurt to repeat it. Thank you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. You welcome

[Major Hogwash]

78. "We are quickly reaching the point of no return."

Wow, that is a cheery thought.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Go over to the Intergovernmental Committee

On Climate Change and spend some quality time with the reports. Nothing is done, or just futzing over the edges, that is pretty much their conclusion.

What should annoy you is that our lovely large media has not really told you this. By the way, since this is consensus some folks who have more qualifications than either of us believe we crossed it already, while a few give us far more breathing room

Those adds from the petroleum institute and how we should all love fraking are not unlike those of big tobacco and the lead industry when the gig was up.

IMO the gig for big oil is indeed up. Next in line, related, is the plastics industry

[Major Hogwash]

111. "The sky is falling, the sky is falling."

Good reporting there, nadin!

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Thanks

and here you go, the links not that I expect you to read ONE WORD of that

http://www.ipcc.ch/

[Major Hogwash]

114. Not one word.

President Obama supports TPP, and I am a Democrat who supports President Obama!

Boo-yah!!!

You think you're smarter than President Obama??

Good luck with that!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. You do realize that you are talking apples TTP, versus oranges, climate change

https://www.whitehouse.gov/climate-change

It is amusing when one reads this shit from partisans, very much amusing.

So since the POTUS does accept the reality of climate change (though his approving of drilling in the arctic is a bad idea), will you now bother reading at the least WH statement on the subject? I doubt it.

I must say, the pretzel is becoming extremely amusing at this point.

That said, blind loyalty only will leave you completely blind.

[Major Hogwash]

132. I'm glad you're amused.

My job is done here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. I noticed you did not address the statement from the WH on Climate Change

I guess you are not as bright as you think you are... or not as obedient to leadership.

Who knew?

If you have grandchildren, I sure am feeling sorry for them. The fact that you do not give a shit about the future is telling. Though on edit, quite cute... almost adorable in fact.

[Major Hogwash]

140. Not my job.

or not as obedient to leadership.

Since when did you start to believe you are my leader?

[nadinbrzezinski]

142. We are talking about the President of the United States

not lowly me. He, and his staff, are the people who posted the aforementioned statement on climate change and a very large climate action plan attached to it. They believe it is a problem. A major problem in fact.

and not your job to worry about your grandchildren, that is obvious you do not give a shit about 2 minutes from now, why worry about 50 years?

[zappaman]

146. Poster has been saying that for at least 10 years.

Maybe one day...

[think]

28. Turn that frown upside down! Vote Bernie!

[Agschmid]

29. You've got a friend...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026653246

[JonLP24]

33. I want positive changes too

but I'm not bitter but very depressed when I look at where this is all heading.

[F4lconF16]

45. Don't be depressed.

Be angry. Be very, very angry for what has been done to you, your family, your friends, your community, and your species by a few very wealthy and greedy people who feel they deserve everything at the expense of everyone else.

Get out in the streets--feel the energy out there. The streets are coming alive. Let that flow into you, and get ready to fight for your lives.

This isn't advocating for violence; quite the opposite, actually. I don't want violence--I want peace. I am advocating for change. Hell, it's DEMANDING change from the constant and everyday violence enacted on us by those who own us.

A revolution only needs to be as violent as the defenders of oppression make it.

If you can't summon up the motivation to do it for yourself, hear my plea: do it for me. Do it for those of us who will be alive when the environmental shit really hits the fan in 40 years. Do it for my brothers and sisters who will be jailed in the coming decades for the color of the skin and the amount of cash in their wallets and the size of the roof over their heads. Do it for the millions that will be killed in our constant wars of territorialism. Do it for the world. As dumb as that may sound, it's exactly what this fight comes down to.

Whose side are you on?

Get out there and fight the good fight despite all the motivation not to, because all we've got is solidarity with each other.

[JonLP24]

51. It is the world as the reason as why it depresses me

I'm mostly fine myself but things like Saudi Arabia bombing the shit out of Yemen the earthquake in Nepal who a long with our defense contractors & gulf allies human traffic many poor Nepalese one of whom I had the privilege of getting to know who I often think about these days wondering what he's up to.

Offshoring the Army: Migrant Workers and the U.S. Military
http://www.uclalawreview.org/offshoring-the-army-migrant-workers-and-the-u-s-military-2/

I agree with you & while I'm not an activist type I'll consider it. Mostly, I just try to spread awareness but I can't help having doubts there will be positive changes which the US as the most powerful country could be humanitarians but instead are parasites when it comes to global trade. I see Bernie Sanders as the best chance & will do my best chance to get him elected.

[F4lconF16]

55. Spreading awareness is activism!

Physical activism isn't the only component--the most visible, and what I personally think is most effective, but certainly not the only way to contribute to the cause. Do what you feel you can, and my thanks for doing so.

I can understand the depressing things...the world is a pretty shitty place. What changes that for me is the people who I see have it far worse than I do, and yet persevere through their personal hells to do what is best for their community. What sadness I feel I allow myself to hold onto and know for a bit, and then I pack it down into a ball of fire somewhere deep down inside me. That fire keeps on growing as long as they continue to oppress us. It's not a cure for the sadness, but it does allow me to transform it into something productive.

[MisterP]

39. it's facts that make me bitter (or mad)

[Bonobo]

42. Vote for big change, be happy with incremental change

Vote for incremental change and get ready for them to call it "crazy socialist talk", kick back at you, readjust the goalposts further to the right and you wind up with:

A whole lot of nothing and a lukewarm left that is redefined for the next 4 election cycles as the "fringe".

THAT is what is going on. Wake up.

[F4lconF16]

48. FIGHT for big change, and DO NOT ACCEPT incremental change.

What did voting do for those in Baltimore? Not a thing.

It's about time we need to stand up for ourselves, however we can, whenever we can.

Don't ever be satisfied with a situation until it is fixed--agitate until they can't take you any more. Stand together in solidarity, and make the bastards hurt for every bit of our humanity they try and take away.

We cannot succeed until we realize that change will only happen when we FIGHT for it.

[Bonobo]

53. Yes, but I hope you see my point.

Which is: If you EVEN want incremental change, you need to vote for big change to take into account the political repositioning and kickback that invariably occurs.

Of course we want big change, but in reality it is fucking hard.

It is like how you are trained to punch in karate or boxing, etc. You don't aim for the target, you aim a few inches BEHIND the target. Otherwise you merely strike the surface and have no effect.

[F4lconF16]

58. Mmm...

This is where my politics tends to differ significantly from most liberals. I don't believe that voting is going to change much in a system that is as completely broken (in the video game sense, not the fixable sense) as the one we have now. I'm not opposed to hearing arguments that we should vote for the most liberal candidates we can in the meantime, but my politics revolves primarily around agitation and direct action. Historically, I think that radical social movements have been the only way that true change has been affected--I have yet to see an example where voting accomplished the same.

And yes, it is not going to be an easy fight in the slightest. Interesting comparison to throwing a punch--I like it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Speaking about Baltimore

that is a beautiful lesson why voting, and only voting, is not enough.

Now better get back to my reading on lead poisoning. Cheerful reading I get to do... don't know what is more depressing, lead in inner city youth, or infrastructure degradation or the IPPC reports. (At least the budget is somewhat of a fantasy)

[F4lconF16]

59. Hmmm...

I think I'm going to go with lead in inner city youth as being slightly more depressing than infrastructure degradation, because as terrible as it is, infrastructure failure is at least mostly impersonal and boring (kinda kidding--I'm an engineer at heart ). But climate change tops it all, because what could be more depressing than the literal end of the world?

I think my solution is a good one:

+ + radical politics = a slightly more enjoyable way to contemplate just how screwed we are

Plus, reading while slightly under the influence always helped me concentrate. Too bad I'm in the library right now...

Edit: Ranking things on scales of depressing-ness is a good way to keep things lighthearted for me. Realizing it may not have come across that way...but it was intended to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Former medic, don't worry about it

these days we cover news. With a retired chief in the house we are in a lovely riot\fire season.



The jokes that at times we tell each other are not fit for printing.

[libdem4life]

43. I'm going to stand with the Buddhist saying: The journey of 10,000 miles starts with one step

or something like that. But if a whole lot of people take one step, then another...that's it, I'm going to join the anti-cynicism group, as well.

[Leith]

44. Sometimes

You have to accept that you can't change the world. The best you can do is make your corner of it better. It sounds like you have done that and helped improve the corners of others as well. That is a very worthwhile way to live your life.

You do good while the opposition is strong. You have made progress for many.

[F4lconF16]

46. We CAN change the world, though!

And we have in the past! When the working class stands and unites across all of our varied divisions, we have NEVER failed to ignite change. That change has not always lasted, but it has happened, every time. The sparks are there--work with them, nurture them, and get ready for them to take off.

Don't let the constant drumbeat of conciliatory politics slow you down. We can do this.

We don't have many options. Those of us my age in particular--our entire lives and futures are hanging in the balance of what happens in the coming decades. Don't give up the fight--others will be inspired, and will join.

[MineralMan]

89. What's interesting is that I said what I would and wouldn't do.

Some people seem to think I was telling them what to do. I'm not. I'm just stating my own position.

[Bonobo]

57. I refuse to let bitterness make me cynical. nt

[Aerows]

61. I *STRIVE* to let go

Last edited Mon May 11, 2015, 01:01 AM - Edit history (1)

of things that are no longer true. I'm blessed to be allowed to foster those born of kindness, honesty and the bravery to do it anyway.

I've never had the wisdom to see the difference between fire and folly, but if there is hope for me, there is hope for anybody

I'll stand in your mirror. The 4 fingers pointing back, aren't pointing at me.

Edit: Wow, I went all transcendental meditation on that, didn't I?

I blame it on the green beans and the salad.

[mountain grammy]

62. Thanks, I needed that!

I'm really working on that myself. And there's a lot to be positive about too. A dear friend of mine finally married his partner. They had a civil union a couple of years ago, but nothing beats that marriage thing, especially when you've thought all your life that could never happen for you. And the presents!

[BainsBane]

63. Is that other OP about you?

The one denouncing incremental change as Third Way? I think the key is not whether one wants profound or incremental change, but whether people are willing to work for some specific result. I got the impression that the other OP thought wanting change was enough.

[MineralMan]

86. Probably. Doesn't matter, though.

I post my opinion. Others post theirs.

[Comrade Grumpy]

65. "I'm not bitter, I'm just consumed by a gnawing hate that's eating away at my gut...

...until I can taste the bile in my mouth."

--Woody the Bartender, "Cheers"

[mmonk]

72. I am cynical and bitter completely now, but will always fight for better.

It is the only thing to do.

[TheSarcastinator]

90. your optimism is a function of your privilege

You settle for crumbs while those you pretend to support starve.

On edit: Oh, look, the middle aged white dude is optimistic. Goody, we're all saved.

[MineralMan]

91. You are incorrect. nt

[greatlaurel]

92. Good post. Cynicism is a powerful tool to prevent people from taking action to help themselves.

From the time in the late 1960's when we saw the attitude of "All politicians are the same" pushed heavily in the media, voter turnout has decreased and apathy has increased. It is a seductive mindset excusing one from trying to do anything to help. Cynicism is pushed heavily here and is very effective in harming Democratic Party candidates at all levels. Hubert Humphrey was greatly harmed by this meme in 1968. Of course, Humphrey would have been a vastly better president than the vile Nixon, but no one wants to admit the electorate was seduced by the attitude that Humphrey was no better than Nixon. The right wing has used this tactic to great effect ever since. We saw with Gore and they are using it in a full court press against Hillary Clinton, now. If she fails to win the Democratic Party presidential nomination, the same meme will be used against whoever runs with some variations to fit the candidate.

Thanks for the post. Keep up the good work. I am trying to do my part in my little corner of the world, too.

[MineralMan]

103. Thank you for your thoughtful reply!

[niyad]

100. "illegitimati non carburundum" --very bad latin for "don't let the bastards grind you down"

[TBF]

104. And I recognize that incremental positive changes

may be promised but never arrive. Ever. Sometimes people do lie. Sometimes they are not looking to do the right thing & instead are more interested in lining their own wallet.

That's not being bitter, that's being "reasonable" (and somewhat intelligent).

[Jamaal510]

109. I agree.

About a few weeks ago in my IR class, we discussed anarchy and direct democracy. I said that I was skeptical about those ideas because they don't seem viable and not that many people pay attention to politics, but the prof said that he doesn't blame people for being cynical and not paying attention to politics. He's a pretty smart man, but I couldn't believe he actually said that. Being bitter and apathetic won't do a thing except probably make things worse.

[MineralMan]

116. Being apathetic means leaving important things to others.

Cynicism breeds apathy, I think. Some people insist on revolutionary changes, but do nothing towards them. That's another useless brand of apathy, in my opinion. My greatest respect goes to those who understand what is possible and who work hard at making the possible happen.

These days, my activism is local. That is what I can do effectively at my age and with my limitations. So, I work at the congressional district and lesser offices. I can be effective at that level. My influence is zero for statewide and national races, although I talk to Al Franken and Amy Klobuchar occasionally.

At the presidential level, there is not a single DUer who has any real impact on that race. We are really only observers. I accept that. Many do not.

[Logical]

121. What prompted this? nt

[MineralMan]

122. Thinking, as usual.

That prompts all of my OPs. I think, and then I post. Thanks for asking.

[Logical]

127. LOL, ok, I will alert the media. nt

[zappaman]

148. You take the east coast...NY Times, Wapo.

I'll handle the west.

[WillyT]

124. I'm Happy For You... Must Be Nice... I Wonder What That's Like...

I consider myself a Skeptical Optimist...

I'll believe it, when I see it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

128. +1 ...

Last edited Mon May 11, 2015, 10:00 PM - Edit history (1)

I will recognize that incremental positive changes are preferable to negative changes.

This thread is depressingly, revealing.

[steve2470]

144. It is revealing

SOCIALIST REVOLUTION NOW OR NOTHING AT ALL.

Ok. FDR only got what he got because, hello, Great Depression ?

[mahina]

141. Thanks man. I'd tattoo that on my forehead backwards

So I can read it in the mirror everyday. Or tattoo it on the inside of my eyelids see it every time I blink. Or maybe skip the tattoos and post it on the fridge, dashboard, my work station, and every telephone pole on the way to and from work.

And make it into a big banner and hold it up so everybody else can see it on the way home too.

[Romulox]

147. Centrist is *happy* with the status quo!

[MineralMan]

152. Odd. That's not what I said at all.

As I've written many times recently, I will be caucusing for Bernie Sanders in our precinct caucus and district conventions in Minnesota. If his name is on our primary ballot, he'll get my vote then, as well. I think he'd make a great President. Even if he is elected, though, change will continue to be incremental. Failing to recognize that is folly.

I fully expect, however, that Hillary Clinton will be the Democratic nominee, and she'll get my vote and campaign efforts if that is the case. Mostly, though, I'll be working hard to re-elect the progressive state legislators and congressional representatives here in my state. We must avoid having Republicans in control of all branches of government, both state and federal.

I'm far from happy with the status quo. I work for change. I do realize, however, that change in this country comes in fits and starts. It happens best when Democrats hold majorities in our legislatures, both state and federal. That's the main thrust of my activism, though strong GOTV efforts. In my own districts, those things have been very successful and every elected office in them is held by a progressive.

Still, I repeat the title of this thread: "I refuse to let cynicism make me bitter."

You will do as you please.

[Romulox]

153. It's essentially what every one of your posts say, blah blah blah notwithstanding. nt

[MineralMan]

154. You are incorrect.

That may be what you're reading into my posts, but that is not what I'm saying.

[rhett o rick]

167. How about skepticism? It's not cynicism to not trust the uncontrolled NSA/CIA Black State.

I understand the desire to blindly trust our leaders but that's not healthy. Beware that incremental changes don't distract from the huge changes for the negative in our Constitutional freedoms and liberties. The lower classes are being reduced to poverty. That's not cynicism, that's a fact Jack. While I support the incremental changes in social issues, I also want major changes in our economy, infrastructure funding, MIC funding, our imperialistic wars, etc.

[MineralMan]

168. Skepticism is always a good idea.

I'm skeptical about most things, unless they are well-supported by factual information. Cynicism is something different, I think. When I read something that makes me skeptical, I go investigate it its something important to me. I'm skeptical about broad general statements almost always. When someone says something like "Democrats agree that Obama is a terrible President," for example, I'm skeptical. I'm a Democrat, and I don't think he is a terrible President, so the statement is negated. The word "Some" would make it an accurate statement, though, because some Democrats thing almost anything you can imagine. Without qualifiers, most statements make me skeptical.

Similarly, when people say "Bernie Sanders can win the presidential election, but Clinton will lose if she is nominated." I'm skeptical. I've watched many presidential elections, and I can see no evidence that such a statement is even close to true. If the word "might" was used instead in both clauses, it would be an accurate statement, but such qualifiers rarely appear on DU.

So, I'm skeptical by nature, and generally so. I'm almost never cynical, though, and never bitter, which was the point of my OP.

Anyway, thanks for keeping this thread alive. It's lasted much longer than I expected.

[zappaman]

169. I learned that a vote for Clinton is a vote for fascism!

So thanks for the thread!

[MineralMan]

170. Uff da!

[rhett o rick]

171. And I learned that those that support the status quo have no substantiative arguments.

They rely on ad hominem attacks hoping to intimidate.

[zappaman]

172. Ad Hominem???

"Vote for HRC and let the country slide right into fascism"


Your incredible, unfuckingreal words.
Own them.

If Clinton is the Democratic nominee, you'll be leaving DU?
Guess we will know after the primaries.
I hope Sanders wins in that case...cuz I know I'd miss your thoughtful statements like the one I quoted.

[rhett o rick]

180. Do you ever post anything but ad hominem attacks? Anything substantial?

And do you get a star every time you use that rude emoticon? It seem to be a signature of a certain group.

[MrMickeysMom]

183. It's the signature of absurd lack of understanding...

Yes… I'm being so nice tonight, cause I'm ready to have sweet dreams.

[MrMickeysMom]

182. You keep having to be reminded of what common logical fallacies is...

In fact, I'd "own" those same words myself, except for the fact that so many others feel the same way, I believe there is a significant number of Democrats who recognize who the corporatists are.

Anyone can see the logic of this country heading break speed into fascism under HRC's leadership is reasoning this because they have directed their attention to exactly how she keeps positioning her support of corporatism over what is going to crush the remaining strand of the middle class.

Once again, please understand what an ad hominem argument is--- It's an attack ON the person, rather than the argument of what is logically to be supported because of the person's position. If you wish to make an argument as to what people say of HRC's foreign and domestic beliefs, then say we are making hasty generalizations about her. From THAT point, we can argue intelligently.

Own that.

[rhett o rick]

184. Thank you for that. You can say it better than I. nm

[zappaman]

186. Oh, Rick...don't sell yourself short. You were very clear.

"Vote for HRC and let the country slide right into fascism"

Gonna miss you if HRC is the nominee.
Honestly, I don't think I've ever read anything so silly on DU ever!
Here's a different smilie for you, my friend!

[rhett o rick]

189. Your attempts to mock me are laughable. Keep trying. I guess for you

it's easier than actually speaking to issues.

[zappaman]

185. LOL!

Voting for HRC is voting for fascism!


Gonna miss you if HRC is the nominee.

[MrMickeysMom]

191. Here's your argument in replacement of any logic...

Talk about silly...