Trade agreements lower America's living standards to raise others. Angers me.

[madfloridian]

Whenever a new trade agreement is offered up we hear talk of how it will help developing countries and raise their standards of living...which in turn they say will make the world safer for all.

What they never say is that in order to lift other countries up to a supposedly higher level, ours takes another hit. They are equalizing the economic playing field at our expense.

There must some great incentives for a country's leaders to be willing to do that to their own country.

I simply do not understand how a president and/or our major political leaders can push such policies that have the potential to do so much harm to our own people. So what if Nike offers to maybe possibly perhaps create 10,000 jobs here in the next ten years? So what? What about the millions of job from US companies that went elsewhere?

I am sure I will be told I am thinking simplistically on this issue....so be it.

The fact remains that we are losing our lifestyles in just a few decades. When our president gets done praising Nike, let him answer to us.

You know what else makes me angry? The rise of the terrible extremism on the right might not have happened if we had an opposition party in this country instead of one that catered to corporations so they would not have to pay attention to the liberals, unions, and other traditional constituents of the party.

The takeover:

At the national convention of a major political party, an ideologically rigid sectarian clique secures the ultimate triumph. It inserts two of its own as nominees for the Presidency and the Vice Presidency. Heavily financed by the most powerful corporations in the world, the group's leaders gather in a private club fifty-four floors above the convention hall, apart from the delegates of the party they had infiltrated. There, they carefully monitor the convention's acceptance of a platform the organization had drafted almost in its entirety. Then, with the ticket secured and with the policy course of the party set, they introduce a team of 100 shock troops to deploy across the country to lock up the party's grassroots.

For years our political leaders have stood by while billionaire groups financed the rise of the Tea Party while calling it a grassroots movement.

If enough had spoken against their methods of shouting everyone else down, we might have gone in another direction. Now we have some members of congress who are so ignorant they are laughed at around the world.

The way Obama is pushing for the new Trans Pacific trade agreement sounds desperate. It worries me.

It is one of the many reasons I am supporting Bernie Sanders. I am proud of that decision. I hate that since that decision there have been so many snide remarks about the intelligence of Sanders' supporters. Our gullibility. How naive we are.

I have a plan to support him while refusing to say bad things against Hillary Clinton. I think that can be done.

But there is a third thing that must be dealt with. Whenever someone speaks of Clinton's former support for the TPP and her role in its development...we must provide proof which of course is never acceptable.

Here is a video of Secretary Clinton speaking in Singapore in November 2012. If she is not speaking of the TPP, please tell me what she is talking about.

It's a long video, but if you wade through it like I did...it's worth it.

And a little more about the same topic while she was in Australia.

Trade deal poses dilemma for Clinton in Democratic primary

WASHINGTON (AP) — On a trip to Australia in 2012, Hillary Rodham Clinton lavished praise on the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership, calling it the "gold standard" in efforts to create open and fair trade.

Now, early in her Democratic presidential campaign, she's striking a different tone — determinedly non-committal, with a hint of skepticism about the sweeping trade agreement she promoted as President Barack Obama's secretary of state. "Any trade deal has to produce jobs and raise wages and increase prosperity and protect our security," Clinton said at a New Hampshire community college last week.

The 12-nation Trans-Pacific Partnership under negotiation by Obama has divided the Democratic Party, leaving Clinton caught between angry liberal activists and the president she once served. It's a fight Clinton has seen before.

For years our jobs have gone overseas. For years any jobs opening here are at much lower salaries than than before.

I am so angry about this. Don't insult our intelligence by saying just look at what great things we will be doing for other countries.....and not mentioning the harm being done to ours.

[WillyT]

1. Yep... And We Were Warned...

& Rec !!!

[madfloridian]

2. ....

True.

[bvar22]

133. Yes....we were warned,

....and we are being warned again RIGHT NOW!!!!

Anyone who believes THIS ONE is going to be magically different
belongs on a New Your street corner playing 3-card-Monty




Wanna bet whether the American Consumer NEVER turns over the Queen of Hearts?

[marym625]

3. K&R!

[CharlotteVale]

4. K&R

[NYC_SKP]

5. She's very good at what she does, but what she does is very, very bad.

She's very persuasive. It takes a good ear and critical thinking to read between the lines and realize that it's all bullshit.

On the subject of raising the minimum wage, her campaign responds:

"she wants to have a conversation about the right target and timeline."

WTF kind of answer is that?

[Jackpine Radical]

9. She likes conversations.

She likes Really Serious conversations involving all of the (paying) stakeholders about stuff that she doesn't want to talk about just now because she has no interest in messing up the lives of her benefactors with nuisances that would cost them money, so we need a timeline that, like, you know, just postpones this stuff a little.

Lately, though, she has been making favorable noises about Minimum Wage. I guess she figured if MallWart could raise their scale by a buck, maybe the country could afford it as long as it stays down in that range.

[NYC_SKP]

11. A buck is all it needs to be to make that claim that she's for an increase.

But she doesn't even seem to be able to issue so much as a tweet that represents a commitment or specific plan.

[840high]

48. She's blowing smoke

up our arse.

[socialist_n_TN]

6. Well, you can't raise the other countries standards of living.........

to our level without cutting into profit. So the answer under capitalism is to lower American standards of living.

And the RATE of profit has been falling since '99. And yes, I KNOW there's a mass of already made profits sitting in offshore accounts and being "invested" in the Wall Street casino. But capitalism also provides a reason that mass of profit already collected hasn't been reinvested in the productive sectors. And that's because it doesn't make as much as it can in the casino. And obviously because of the surety of being bailed out, there's not even any disincentive to "invest" in Wall Street. It's a rigged game and it always has been and the VAST MAJORITY of us will never get to play. Unless we force the issue.

[erronis]

109. +1 - Let's keep on repeating this - It's a rigged game.

[NYC_SKP]

7. TPP part starts at 8:00 in, 40% of world trade, it's going to save women, she says.

I personally think that power has gone to her head and clouded her judgement.

She strikes me as a horrible person, a good person gone bad.

[L0oniX]

13. "it's going to save women" WTF ...holy twisted link sausages Batman!

Are those the women in countries like Sweden by any chance? FFS

[NYC_SKP]

14. "Better jobs, higher wages, better working conditions, including for women, migrant workers, others"

In other words, people earning one dollar a day will get a raise to a buck-fifty, to do work that was being done here just last year.

"It takes a village", not get ready to give up your retirement, union scale wages, etc., because Hillary said "It's your turn", she said that in her video.

Your turn.

[L0oniX]

18. I eagerly await all those new jobs working 16 hours a day 7 days a week for $1.35 a day.

[LittleBlue]

34. Plus she's wrong

That extra $0.50 isn't going to the worker, it's going to the factory owner. And she knows it, but she is telling lies

[madfloridian]

141. Thanks for mentionng that.

I should have and forgot.

[Binkie The Clown]

8. Don't worry. Global warming will lower ALL our standards of living soon enough. n/t

[SusanCalvin]

23. I'm afraid you're right.

I keep thinking of an Octavia Butler novel - Parable of the Sower, was it?

[rhett o rick]

10. Great post. Couple of things. It's a farse that if the so-called Free Trade agreements lower our

standards, it will raise those of foreign workers. Think about it. What a ruse. The capitalists that are crafting this piece of crap don't give a hoot about anything but their profits. And look at past Free Trade Bullcrap Agreements. They have failed to raise wages ANYWHERE, nor improve working conditions. Corporations want bigger and bigger profits. That's our system. If people are harmed, "sorry, it's just business, not personal." The personhoods of corporations need a baseball bat against their heads (figuratively) to stop them from literally killing us. AND NOT ALL DEMOCRATS ARE OUR FRIENDS. Clinton and Obama love fracking and Free Trade. Figure it out folks.

[L0oniX]

17. Hey ...as long as the slave owner looks pretty or runs in the proper circles...

http://www.businesspundit.com/the-15-most-notorious-sweatshops-of-all-time/

Kathie Lee Gifford’s Honduran/New York sweatshops, 1996



After Nike, Kathie Lee Gifford suffered one of the more intense shamings for her involvement with sweatshops. During congressional hearings, Kathie Lee faced accusations that her Walmart factory line was made at Global Fashions, a Honduran sweatshop. Global Fashions employed 5-year-old girls for 75-hour work weeks, at the grand wage of 31 cents an hour. She promptly took to the TV cameras to cry, creating an indelible cautionary image for the clothing industry. Soon after, it was revealed even more Kathie Lee laborers were working in a New York factory that hadn’t been paid in weeks. At that point, husband Frank took over, showing up with news coverage and $9,000 in cash. Such repeated embarrassments led to the formation of the Fair Labor Commission, as much as to avoid public humiliation as to do right by workers.

Interesting read at the link. Enjoy.

[madfloridian]

21. I remember that.

All too well.

[SMC22307]

62. "Nike sweatshops, Asia, the 1990s-onward"

As liberal students dragged anti-globalization/sweatshop concerns into the front of the public’s consciousness, no company received more heat for their labor practices than shoe manufacturer Nike. Led by assertive, largely unapologetic CEO Phil Knight, Nike played strong defense. They have pointed out that workers in Indonesia saw their minimum wage rise from under a dollar a day to over two in part to multinational hiring by companies like Nike and have told stories about Vietnam workers waiting outside the factory doors, hoping someone would quit so they could get a job. Eventually, all the bad publicity caught up with them and the company set up internal monitoring over outsourced labor, working with protest groups to investigate claims of any abuse, mitigating ugly public pickets.

Ah, yes, the liberal students:



Good times.

Thanks for that link... sobering stuff.

[tazkcmo]

113. Beat me to it.

I would add that His Majesty Michael Jordan got and continues to get a free pass.

[cantbeserious]

12. All Too True

eom

[MissDeeds]

15. K&R

[Enthusiast]

16. Big K&R!

[pampango]

19. European countries do more to help the Third World through trade and does it without damaging

the unions and middle class. China tears more with Europe than with the U.S.

Our middle class does not suffer in order to benefit the world's poor. They suffer to enrich our own 1%. If we put our own house in order, we could trade as much as Europe does (2 to 3 times our level) and still take care of our own unions, workers and middle class.

Most liberals do not want to stop the income gains of the global poor. We want our own 1% to be forced to share our tremendous wealth with the 99%.

[Scuba]

89. /\_/\_This right here_/\_/\

[B Calm]

95. You still have an overseas job?

[pampango]

111. Other than the Peace Corps, I never have had an overseas job. What kind of question is that? n/t

[wendylaroux]

126. Precisely this! ^

Once again:

"Most liberals do not want to stop the income gains of the global poor. We want our own 1% to be forced to share our tremendous wealth with the 99%."--thank you pampango

[libdem4life]

20. Couldn't even bring myself to watch the video for minutes I'll never get back. Hillary is on track

with the Republicans and the National Chamber of Commerce...Hello out there???? Right wingers rejoice! We've got ours...sucks to be you (i.e. middle class, lower class, poor, disabled, unemployed and your job just got taken by a Chinese, food stamps, et al.) We just don't have enough money...dead broke and in debt? Well so is your government. Sorry.

[FairWinds]

22. Hey Mad-F - you are way wrong on this one . .

these "agreements" are bad for workers everywhere.

NAFTA is despised in both Canada and Mexico.

We need an INTERNATIONAL movement to defeat them.

Please don't let the ONE PERCENT turn you against our
brothers and sisters abroad.

We need them, and they need us.

[madfloridian]

24. I should have said they CLAIM to raise living standards...

because it never works like that.

However I am not against those abroad who are paying the price for the greed of the billionaires.

Sorry if it came across that way.

All these agreements do is give more corporations more power to screw the little people.

[SusanCalvin]

27. Yep. For the corporations and the superrich.

The rest of us are interchangeable labor units.

[Exilednight]

25. It's a race to the bottom. n/t

[appalachiablue]

26. K & R. The Investor Class is doing fine from the system and is already rationalizing

Last edited Sun May 10, 2015, 10:41 PM - Edit history (1)

how good Americans have it, as I've seen in the last couple years especially from business people, old men and hungry young men trained by RW think tanks that CSPAN airs perpetually. They don't care anymore, period. About us or this country, they're global for 20+ years. Plenty of politicians and those who are stock holders are also benefiting, from financial investments, school privatization, cheap labor at hospitals, hotels, stores, doctors offices, on and on.

The capitalists are locating to and opening up less developed countries for several reasons- to seek a lower corporate tax rate than the US, for the cheap labor and lax or non existent environmental and labor regulation = more profit, and also to create large populations of new consumers to buy their stuff. Stuff that they've never had before: computers, cellphones, TVs, clothes, refrigerators, cars, nicer homes, retail, vacation travel, recreation, luxury items, KFC, Taco Bell, Disney Stores, Hiltons, Hyatts.

We forget that this comfortable lifestyle of ours has been unknown to the approx. 350,000,000 Chinese and Indians who now make up their new Middle Classes. That number is larger than our entire US population of 320,000,000. So it seems to me that we're essentially on our own, except for a devoted handful of fighting leaders and our own resourcefulness and skill to survive. I've been watching affairs intensely for 5 years, for the sake of the young ones and it doesn't look good, the Cavalry isn't coming.

One thing, I hope I live long enough to see the reduction or banishment of the term 'globalization', which was in truth a total economic marketing concept/con having little to do with helping unite and assist others on the planet. It was meant to expand capital and free market neoliberal economics into developing societies to make them 'advance', to the point where they can buy goods and products and have a need for modernized infrastructure- transportation, communications, etc. which are another source of profit.

I have heard Tech execs from major companies on panels discuss the success they've had selling Tablets and Ipads to women in Africa, and they're serious. Those women hardly have shelter, wood for cooking and protection from violence and disease. Sorry for this rant dear, it's all very serious and sometimes unbelievable. Tomorrow will be better and beautiful I know!


Rep. Darrel Issa (R-CA), multimillionaire, businessman. May 7, 2015 CNN Money Interview.

*Excellent article by Canadian author and politician, Chrysta Freeland, The Atlantic, Jan. 1, 2011.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/01/the-rise-of-the-new-global-elite/308343/

This work stunned me in winter 2011 when I read it, but it was the foundation for making sense of some of the blitzkrieg era of change we are in. 'Technology is vaporizing jobs', as a poster wrote on DU yesterday.

[madfloridian]

44. Something is wrong with that man.

Something serious. Not sure what.

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/martin-bashir-reminds-viewers-darrell-issas

[daleanime]

28. It's not even about raising others standards.....

it's about increase the profit for those who don't need it.

[madfloridian]

30. Exactly. They only CLAIM to raise the standards. They only make themselves richer.

[appalachiablue]

50. It is mostly about exploiting anybody and anything for profit, like it's always been except

with strong regulation on business, etc. There are middle classes resulting in developing nations like Brazil, India and China but there are many, many millions who are left out, at the very bottom with no opportunity to rise. Another point is that corporations are making the choices and they buy the politicians to carry out their wishes- not the people of course, who are mostly dependent and often used.

[daleanime]

51. Amen.....

[AzDar]

29. Stop The TPP!!

[kristopher]

31. What if the agreement actually does correct the deficiencies of past agreements?

I know the optics of the process are terrible - having it formed in secret with all the corporate interests at the table while excluding public input looks 100% like a sell-out.

But given the situation with passing legislation, what would it look like if Obama was totally on the side of the little guy?

It would have to look the same way because it would have to be done the same way. The idea that the government entities are incapable of representing the public interest is pure conservative dogma.

I saw Elizabeth Warren interviewed (by either Rachel or Stewart) right after Obama pointed out that Congress has access to the draft. So I tuned into her interview specifically to get her impression of what she had read. Not once did she make any statement that said or implied that she actually knew what was in the draft. All she did was speculate and condemn the TPP because of performance of past agreements. I can agree that is a strong reason to be cautious, but when she has the ability to know rather than speculate I really can't understand why she isn't talking about concrete problems.

It was the first time I've ever seen her in an interview that I walked away feeling that she was being less than forthcoming.

My primary point of worry is that the R's are solidly behind it. But given the fact that the R's are idiot lemmings that have no idea what they are doing 99% of the time, that isn't nearly as satisfying a reason to reject it as having someone I trust (like Warren) speak with knowledge of specific problems with the content.

The main reason I responded to your OP, however, was to say that I think many D's are pointing a finger in the wrong direction. You seem to be blaming the poor in other countries for the losses here at home, and IMO that is placing the blame in entirely the wrong place. It is the 1% that is profiting from lost jobs here, not the poor working in the sweatshops of the 1%.
Trade can be done right and it can deliver on the promises being made. That will inevitably create some degree of social disruption. Whether or not that disruption is properly dealt with by social policies designed to preserve and protect a strong middle class. However, that is the primary area where we have fallen to 3rd world status - and we both know that failure is the deliberate work of the 1% and their wholly owned subsidiary, the Republican Party.

[madfloridian]

32. Why should I blame the poor in other countries? They are victims like our own poor.

I think I wrote it more clearly than that.

Why would a president push so hard to level the playing field economically with other countries? His job is to care for OUR country.

[kristopher]

36. Because you explicitly said that?

"Trade agreements lower America's living standards to raise others. Angers me."

You now write "Why would a president push so hard to level the playing field economically with other countries? His job is to care for OUR country."

Yes, his job is to care for our country. And from what I've seen he is doing his very best under what are probably the most difficult opposition any president has ever had to deal with.

IF - just IF - the deal is designed as it is supposed to be and it removes incentives to shop the world for sweatshop labor by providing extending US standards for environmental protection and wages to developing countries, wouldn't it be foolish of him to tip his hand to the malevolent billionaires and their congressional critters?

I realize that cuts both ways, but my topic is energy and moving away from carbon. I've seen some remarkable and positive changes occur (especially in China) and I think those changes are largely the result of Obama's backdoor diplomacy with China on the energy front. Based on that and a few other moves like health care and net neutrality, I believe he is working for the people as best he can.

So I guess it boils down to the fact that I still trust him.

[madfloridian]

38. And if it doesn't work as it should?

Then what?

[kristopher]

40. Yeah, that is the meat of the issue, isn't it?

The R's have shoveled so much sh*t that everything stinks of it, even roses. And I've been smelling their crap for so long that I'm saying roses only out of faith in my memory.

[TheKentuckian]

106. Even that is essential vaporware, the "deal" is that China will continue to escalate emissions for

like 17 years and then begin to reduce from that future peak.

If they don't then I guess they get a wag of the finger.

[kristopher]

115. You couldn't be more wrong.

China is directly responsible for the price of solar plummeting and that has caused a huge global shift in energy investment towards solar. They took the world from about 12GW of PV manufacturing capacity per year to 52GW of manufacturing capacity per year almost overnight. Due mostly to their approach using massive investment in manufacturing they have turned the energy industry upside down. Just because they have inertia in their energy planning doesn't mean they are just playing games on the subject of renewables - they need energy and they are steadily (2 or 3 time per year it seems) and significantly expanding their renewable energy targets.
It's fashionable to be cynical about what they are doing so you've seen that message around a lot, but generally the sources don't really know what is going on.

[TheKentuckian]

132. If I couldn't be more wrong then you will point out how what I stated is inaccurate.

You can't because I'm correct and your rebuttal doesn't address what i said but is your own tangent.

The Chinese plan to continue to increase emissions until like 2032 and if they then don't then what are those penalties?

Yeah, it is easily possible to be more incorrect.

[tennstar]

122. I have seen remarkable changes

You trust Obama on the energy really!
Today he gave conditional approval to drill in the Arctic.
He has given approval in the Atlantic
He wants Fracking everywhere.
He was inside BP pocket well before they destroyed the gulf.
Every time he opens his mouth on the environment he is selling it off through the back door.
Obama helping the Chinese on pollution, really. I realize people think that China, Africa etc. Are dumb, but the Chinese are already way ahead of us on somethings and clearly understand they have to move away from coal they don't need Obama to show how it is done. Maybe he should be doing that in the USA.
When people think we should just go along cause, well I trust Obama, It makes me ill.
This trade deal IS Written by corporations for corporations and it is being pushed out of congress so in the end we have no recourse. If it is so great or possibly so great, MAKE IT PUBLIC. Other wise there is absolutely nothing to trust.

[madfloridian]

33. What's more, the 1% owns a lot of our party also.

And denying that is doing great harm to us now.

For example why would both parties be willing to dismantle our tradition of public education?

Unless to profit the "reformers"?

[kristopher]

37. I agree. Carper is my senator and he is owned by the banks.

On the second point, I think our tradition of public education is great, but like everything else, the R's have been working for decades at all levels to make it not work.

I don't like what I've seen of the reforms Duncan has been pushing but I do think radical change is needed to move us to something based on the European or Asian structure. By that, I mean a system where there is as strong an emphasis on high quality education to prepare a skilled workforce in the trades as there is on getting people into good free university programs.

[madfloridian]

39. May I quote a University Distinguished Professor of Education at Michigan State, Yong Zhao

Zhao is University Distinguished Professor of Education at Michigan State University, where he also serves as the founding director of the Center for Teaching and Technology as well as the US-China Center for Research on Educational Excellence.

Asian countries moving away from standardized testing because it kills "creativity and innovation"

Just as the federal government has announced the awarding of $330 million to two consortiums so that they can develop new national exams, it is more important than ever that people check out this video of one of our best critics of high stakes testing, Yong Zhao.

..."He points out that China and other Asian countries are trying to move away from standardized testing, because it kills creativity and innovation, just as the US government is trying to impose it on schools throughout the country.

He also talks movingly about the importance of arts education and nurturing individual talents and resiliency, all of which are damaged by the monolithic emphasis on high stakes testing.

[kristopher]

45. Yes, I'm aware of that movement in Asia.

I consider it a fad erroneously imitating the US. As I understand the testing that we've adopted over the past couple of decades, it is a system that is completely dysfunctional. Our attempt to date bears absolutely no resemblance to what is going on elsewhere.
Testing does have problems with pigeon-holing people, but its problems aren't nearly as bad as a system that excludes vast numbers of students from ANY hope of a future.

Nothing is perfect (except my mother on Mother's Day).

[JEB]

35. K&R

[Hoyt]

41. How has your "lifestyle" taken a hit from trade? And why shouldn't we care about people in other

countries?

[madfloridian]

42. One can "care" about those in other countries....

but there's a difference in taking our country down to their level or trying to bring theirs up to ours.

I am retired, but I see others around here looking for jobs that aren't there anymore. Thankful for jobs they are far overqualified for.

[Hoyt]

43. Our country is not being brought down to "their" level. Honest to god, this sound Tbaggerish to me.

[madfloridian]

46. Ha, never been accused of being a teabagger before. lol

Just about everything else, though.

[ibegurpard]

55. that's one of the tactics being used

you make noise about jobs formerly being done in this country exported to countries where labor is cheaper?
you must be selfish and not want to help raise the standard of living for those in other parts of the world.

Let's say that our expenses are dropped to the level of Malaysia...then we can talk about fair trade.
Until then forget it.

[madfloridian]

77. I find it hard to take some of those remarks seriously.

Selfish for wanting our economy to prosper. Unreal.

Thanks for your post.

[Elwood P Dowd]

53. Wages and wealth for the middle class and poor have declined drastically the past 25-30 years,

but you say we're not being brought down? The gap between the richest 1% and the bottom 80% is the largest of any advanced free country in the world, but we're not being brought down? The richest 1,000 Americans have more wealth than the bottom 40%, over 125 million people. People I knew who were working in manufacturing making $15-20 an hour twenty years ago are now working at places like Wal Mart, Dollar General, or cleaning services making $8-10 an hour with no benefits. Two electrical engineers I know lost their jobs to China. I realize you're working from a list of talking points furnished by some corporate funded front group, but I don't think they can even come up with talking points refuting that we are in decline except for those at the top of the income scale.

Since we started this fake free trade madness in the 1980s, over 50,000 factories have closed and move offshore. We have run up close to 10 trillion dollars in trade deficits. Millions of Americans have lost their jobs. The ones that found new jobs often worked in low wage service jobs with no benefits. The hits just keep coming, and some of you people want more hits. You will never be happy until we are beaten to a pulp.

[ibegurpard]

56. their excuse is that its inevitable

that globalism is something that just happens and isn't a result of policy choices.

[Hoyt]

57. So to keep your lavish lifestyle, we can't help people in poor countries with trade.

When I say "lavish," I mean from a poor peasants perspective in Vietnam, etc. You are the 1%ers to them.

Besides, most job losses have been from technology, not outsourcing. But it feels better to blame it on trade.

[ibegurpard]

59. Do you know who just said something similar?

California Republican Darryl Issa:
"Our poor are the envy of the world."

[madfloridian]

67. Thanks for that.

Unbelievable. But not from him, I guess.

[closeupready]

129. "Unbelievable. But not from him." Correct.

I'm still not sure what his agenda here on DU is, but I'm not 100% convinced it's yet a matter for the MIRT team, but I reject almost all his arguments, point blank.

[madfloridian]

60. What a strange thing to say.

Makes it hard to respond.

[ibegurpard]

64. It's not at all hard to respond

Darryl Issa just said the same thing.

[Hoyt]

69. And Tbaggers are opposed to helping furiners, like you guys.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

103. Most elected Baggers are on YOUR side. Keep that in mind as you throw accusations.

[Hoyt]

107. I'm talking the tbaggers on the street.

[Hoyt]

68. I bet. Being a greedy American is hard to rationalize .

[ibegurpard]

71. And there you have it madfloridian

We're just greedy and our poor are the envy of the world.

[Hoyt]

73. Are you poor? I've said there are lots of things we need to do for poor.

But, trading among ourselves ain't gonna help the poor.

[madfloridian]

142. ....

Yep.

[Elwood P Dowd]

72. Yes, those greedy bastards making $8.50 an hour at Wal Mart or Dollar General

should be ashamed of themselves.

[ibegurpard]

74. they obviously don't appreciate how good they have it

[Hoyt]

75. No those who think trading among ourselves and screwing the poor in countries like Vietnam,

is going to help our poor, are quite wrong.

[ibegurpard]

78. So our standard of living goes down

Our costs continue to rise and the Vietnamese stay poor.
Great racket...if you work for Bain Capital.

[Hoyt]

80. Has your standard of living gone down? Has it ever occurred to you that

we took far more than our share of the world's wealth and resources, not to mention bombing the hell out of folks in Vietnam.

I'm all for redistributing wealth to the poor here. I think helping the poor there, will help here as well.

[Elwood P Dowd]

79. You get your own house in order first before worrying about fixing someone else's house.

And making deals that benefit giant corporations, mega-rich investors, and sends jobs to Vietnam sure as hell ain't gonna' help our poor. Thinking like that is just creating more poor here and putting more wealth and power into the hands of your corporate/republican friends.

[Hoyt]

81. And you are just parroting the xenophobic tbaggers.

[Elwood P Dowd]

82. Everybody against another fake free deal is now a xenophobic tgagger.

Just like everybody against NAFTA and CAFTA was a racist. The following say thank you for your continuing support and TPPing on the American workers.....

Mitch McConnell
Paul Ryan
Orrin Hatch
Rand Paul
Jeb Bush
Dick Cheney
George W. Bush
Scott Walker
John Boehner
David Koch
Charles Koch
Jamie Dimon
Monsanto
The Business Round table
Wall Street
Americans For Prosperity
Cato
The Heritage Foundation
Exxon Mobil
The Republican National Committee
Fox News
General Electric
Wal Mart
The Pete Peterson Foundation
Citigroup
The US Chamber Of Commerce
Bank Of America

[Hoyt]

83. And xenophobic tbaggers agree with you.

[Elwood P Dowd]

84. And this scum agrees with you.

This scum actually starts wars and kills people, destroys jobs, and even helped create what you call tbaggers. People you are in bed with on TPP are far worse than whatever name you can make up about me because your fellow fake free trade promoters have a proven track record.

Using your logic, the majority of DUers are now xenophobic tbaggers.

The following scum thanks you for helping them promote TPP.......

Mitch McConnell
Paul Ryan
Orrin Hatch
Rand Paul
Jeb Bush
Dick Cheney
George W. Bush
Scott Walker
John Boehner
David Koch
Charles Koch
Jamie Dimon
Monsanto
The Business Round table
Wall Street
Americans For Prosperity
Cato
The Heritage Foundation
Exxon Mobil
The Republican National Committee
Fox News
General Electric
Wal Mart
The Pete Peterson Foundation
Citigroup
The US Chamber Of Commerce
Bank Of America

[Hoyt]

105. Obama, Deval Patrick, Brookings, etc., disagree with you.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

104. Are you trolling? You have taken the side of the Republicans on this one.

You don't get to make accusations when you're the guy making common cause with Boehner, McConnell, and Rand Paul. Take your Republican talking points to someone stupid enough to listen to them.

[Hoyt]

144. And, you have taken the side of ignorant, xenophobic Tbaggers.

[Jesus Malverde]

143. Have you been to Vietnam? know anything about the economy there?

Vietnam growth rate over last four years 6.4 6.2 5.2 5.4

US 2.5 1.6 2.3 2.2

Your misinformed about the "poor people" of Vietnam. They're GDP IS a lot better than ours.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG

Annual percentage growth rate of GDP at market prices based on constant local currency. Aggregates are based on constant 2005 U.S. dollars. GDP is the sum of gross value added by all resident producers in the economy plus any product taxes and minus any subsidies not included in the value of the products. It is calculated without making deductions for depreciation of fabricated assets or for depletion and degradation of natural resources.

[Hoyt]

145. Their GDP is better than ours. LMAO. When you have nothing, a few dollars is a big percentage

increase. But you still have no running water, sewer system beyond ditches, etc.

Our education system is a failure.

[Jesus Malverde]

146. I take it you haven't been to Vietnam recently

The country is vibrant and booming.

"no running water, sewer system beyond ditches" - is a stereotype.

Vietnam: Vietnam’s Economy Shows Promising Sign Ahead

In less than two generations, Vietnam has emerged from a war-torn nation to become one of the most dynamic economies in ASEAN. Our local MD takes a pulse-check of the domestic economy in this first of a two-part article series.

The world has changed a lot in four decades: yesterday's foe has become today's closest trading partner. Last year was an important one for Vietnam. Just eight years after joining the World Trade Organisation (WTO), the country has emerged as South East Asia's largest exporter to the US. It overtook traditional regional manufacturing powerhouse like Singapore, Thailand and Malaysia to claim a 20% market share. The country shipped $28.5bn worth of goods and services to the US (an increase of 19.6% from 2013), with textiles and garments being the key export item.

Between 1998 and 2008, the Vietnamese economy achieved an average gross domestic product (GDP) growth of 7.5%. After a decade of high growth, the country fell into recession due to high inflation in 2011, but now the tide is turning once more for Vietnam. It is set to bounce back by leveraging its strategic geographic location, ripening demographic dividend, low labour cost structure and growing foreign direct investments (FDI).

Despite the gloomy global economic outlook in 2014, Vietnam's GDP managed to grow at the fastest rate (5.98%) in four years to reach US$180.8bn. The country also saw its inflation stabilising to the lowest rate in 10 years at 4.1% (37.88% lower than 2013). The strong growth in Vietnam was driven by its record high export worth US$150bn after rising 13.6% from the previous year. This brought the country trade surplus to US$2bn.

For the next two years, the Asian Development Bank (ADB) projects the Vietnamese economy will expand at an even faster pace of 6.1% in 2015 and 6.2% in the following year. Currently, Vietnam is Asia's fifth-strongest growing economy. The ADB believes the country could become the second growth engine for Asia (besides India) as China enters a slower growth cycle. According to the ADB's Asian Development Outlook 2015, Vietnam is also the most promising economy in VISTA, a new acronym encompassing Vietnam, Indonesia, South Africa, Turkey and Argentina).

It seems foreign investors agree with the ADB's view. Last year, Vietnam attracted US$15.6bn (up 9.6% from 2013) fresh FDI inflow on top of US$ 4.6bn being injected by existing projects. Korea was the largest source of FDI with Samsung being the country's single largest foreign investor and exporter. Last November, the electronic giant announced its plan to spend US$3bn in expanding an existing factory into the largest smart phone production facility in the world. This came just four months after the company received permission to build a US$1bn display module production plant.

More on the booming Vietnamese economy at the link

http://www.mondaq.com/x/393006/Economic+Analysis/Vietnams+Economy+Shows+Promising+Sign+Ahead

Economic Boom Poses a New Threat, Among Many, to a Vietnamese Heritage

HUE, Vietnam — This is a city of edifices and their ghosts.

Straddling the Perfume River in central Vietnam, Hue was the seat of the last imperial dynasty, and it has long been known for what the Nguyen emperors left behind: the imposing walled Citadel with its former palaces and pleasure gardens; the ornate royal tombs scattered across the verdant hills; and the wooden villas of their mandarins.

These buildings have endured the infamous Hue weather — dank and misty and gray much of the year — and the brutality of modern armies. Some of the bloodiest urban combat the United States Marines have ever faced took place in the Citadel during the 1968 Tet offensive, a battle depicted in Stanley Kubrick’s “Full Metal Jacket.”

The monuments have also withstood decades of rule by the Communist Party, despite being symbols of the feudal traditions the party was trying to exorcise from Vietnam.

But what weather, war and ideology had not yet undone, a newer threat may: the economic boom that has been transforming the character of this central Vietnamese city of 340,000 people in recent years. Preservationists are struggling to ensure that officials, businesspeople and residents here properly protect Hue’s heritage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/30/world/asia/economic-boom-poses-a-new-threat-among-many-to-a-vietnamese-heritage.html?_r=0

Vietnam en route to become one of four largest ASEAN’s economies

Vietnam is the rising star of the ASEAN community and the most attractive destination for investment.

With economic growth on a solid path, the country aims to transcend the ASEAN-6 countries (Brunei, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore and Thailand) and catch up with the ASEAN-4 that include, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand and the Philippines, said the Vietnam minister of planning and investment, Bui Quang Vinh.

According to the International Monetary Fund’s World Economic Outlook, Vietnam possesses the second highest GDP growth in ASEAN-5 countries (Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand and Malaysia), following the top economy of Philippines,

Already, the country is planning drastic reforms in the administrative procedures to reduce the time taken to start a business in Vietnam. At the same time, the government is standardising the criteria for doing business, and managing imported/exported goods and services in accordance with international practice.

By 2016, these changes would be in place, helping Vietnam compete with the ASEAN 4 nations in terms of business environment .

http://www.dealstreetasia.com/stories/vietnam-en-route-to-become-one-of-four-largest-aseans-economies-5024/

[Hoyt]

147. It's still poor, very poor. And closing the TPP door on them won't help.

[Jesus Malverde]

148. Ah pity one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

[Hoyt]

149. Kenya, Malaysia, etc., are growing fast too. But not in absolute terms.

[HughBeaumont]

91. Wingnut canard and a logical fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

Charles Koch thinks the same way. He would know, he makes $34k every 21 minutes.

[LongTomH]

128. Excellent response! Thank you!

[Enthusiast]

92. I cannot help but think this is the G. H. W. Bush New World Order made flesh.

Corporate interests and state interests have become one and the same.

US standards of living must taker a big hit because our middle class and poor have it too good. Level the playing field (at our expense). IMO, Hillarys words make this is clear.

[Hoyt]

99. You think doing nothing is going to help?

[Enthusiast]

100. Doing nothing would be preferable to handing the corporations even more power over our lives.

We have quite enough Fascism as it is.

[LongTomH]

130. Strawman fallacy

You're setting up your opponents argument as a strawman; i.e., there are only two choices: continuing with an dysfunctional 'free trade' regime or doing nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Hoyt]

131. No, sitting back and doing nothing will disadvantage us long-term. You'll be sleeping on straw.

[LongTomH]

134. Argument by assertion also, Argument from adverse consequences

"No, sitting back and doing nothing will disadvantage us long-term. You'll be sleeping on straw."

You offer a disastrous scenario, without offering any proof, other than an assertion.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_adverse_consequences

[Hoyt]

135. And you've offered absolutely nothing of value regarding the issue under discussion.

[Ikonoklast]

94. Paul Volcker, years ago, 1979.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6441987/Volcker-Asserts-US-Must-Trim-Living-Standard-NYT-10181979


Not the wealthiest, not the rich and powerful, the working class and the poor must bear the brunt of "fixing" the economy, breaking inflation, and globalization.


And people wonder why the LEO of this nation have been militarized ever since.

[StarzGuy]

47. I've had the same thoughts in my mind for years

what does Obama expect to make a killing on with TPP? There has to be a back story.

I am one that has gone from the middle class with a decent job into poverty due to several serious illnesses now 100% disabled. Yeah I get SSDI and a small pension but it's near poverty income. Big deal, we get a tiny increase most years but it doesn't even keeping up with the cost of living. I get into a worsening situation as time goes by.

Obama's TPP will undo most of the good he has done for the US. Seems like just as they get into office they soon forget about the people that helped them get there. I've felt abandoned by the president for some time now.

I am proud to be a democratic socialist and will vote for Sanders if given the chance. I fear that his support is limited and will not get far into the business of election of a president. I hope I'm wrong. I wonder if Sanders becomes the democratic nominee for president would he move more to the center by modifying his position on immigration. We already have two Americas, the top 1% billionaires and those who are merely millionaires and everyone else (99%).

Well I've said too much.

[840high]

49. ...^ that

[Skittles]

54. you haven't said near enough, StarzGuy

it's the assholes pimping our jobs offshore who say too much

[Skittles]

52. the people say it "helps developing nations" are the ones benefiting from pimping our jobs offshore

f*** them all

[eridani]

90. It helps poor people in rich countries to subsidize rich people in poor countries n/t

[Skittles]

121. VERY WELL SAID

I will use that - thank you

[eridani]

137. Please spread the meme--thqnks n/t

[ibegurpard]

58. It should anger you

And the fact that it's received very little media coverage until this late date should anger the entire American public.
But we all know why it hasn't...and we can thank the Telecommunications Act of 1996 signed by former Democratic President Bill Clinton for that one.

[Puzzledtraveller]

61. You can see the effects very quickly too.

I don't know if this is part of the outcry against globalism or what but there is a big problem when we sell our children's future to the highest bidders only for them to take our money and run.

[nationalize the fed]

63. others for the record

in 2007- at the AFL-CIO debate, Candidate Rodham-Clinton talked about how NAFTA was a "Mistake" and how she felt about "free trade". You really have to see it to believe it.

The "free trade" segment starts at 18:18

[polly7]

66. That last video is amazing. nt.

[madfloridian]

70. Thanks for those videos.

[Michigan-Arizona]

65. K&R! n/t

[AgingAmerican]

76. And it all ends up in the pockets of the oligarchy

In the US and other countries. The TPP is just the latest phase of the massive transfer of wealth to the uber rich, and demise of the middle class.

[haikugal]

85. Another OP hit out of the park!

Well done!

[stonecutter357]

86. .

[stonecutter357]

87. .

Didn't you guys all hear? Obama is a Muslim and he's trying to get rid of the Constitution.

[ohheckyeah]

88. From a 2009 article in the NYT:

"American workers are overpaid, relative to equally productive employees elsewhere doing the same work. If the global economy is to get into balance, that gap must close."

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2009/11/11/business/11views.html?_r=0&referrer=

[kentuck]

101. This is the gist of it.

American workers may not do as well but American corporations will do great.

[ohheckyeah]

124. Yep and

the depression was planned IMO.

[madfloridian]

120. Now that is a very scary statement. Bookmarking that link.

Thanks.

[ohheckyeah]

123. You're welcome.

I knew it was coming every since I read this in 2009.

[Alkene]

93. I'm past the anger stage,

Last edited Mon May 11, 2015, 05:23 PM - Edit history (1)

and pretty much resigned to the fact that nice lives are something for other people, with my "retirement" (too feeble from old age to work) plan consisting of languishing in the wooded ravine behind the food bank until I die unceremoniously from exposure, infection, or violence- providing sustenance for the raccoons, rats and crows.

But I'm not angry.

[whereisjustice]

96. Corporate Democrats are licking their chops at the chance to ship millions of jobs to Vietnam

at $0.75 an hour, no benefits, 12 - 18 hr work days and near ZERO regulations.

[TBF]

97. On raising the boats ~

I should probably write an OP on this, but I will try to be succinct here. We can't raise them ALL because some are already too high. What we need to do is level out the boats a little. We can pull down the billionaire boats a bit, and redistribute some of the good stuff (shelter, food, health care) to all folks globally.

In other words, it makes no sense for certain individuals to own multiple palaces globally while others live in tents. There is a way to do this peacefully and that is called re-distribution. If we are going to have global "trade" agreements they must be subject to some sort of global policing, and a way to stabilize the boats is to impose a global "tax".

There is really no way around this. The Hillary Clinton and Barack Obamas of the world will "stabilize" by bringing folks DOWN to a low common denominator. This allows the billionaires to remain untouched (those same billionaires who coincidentally pay their outrageous speaking fees ...). Until we decide a little more parity is in order we are going to be subject to their whims.

[mb999]

98. We can't compete with third world shantytown dwellers who are forced to work for pennies

on the dollar unless we are willing live like that for the benefit of billionaires. What good are all the labor and environmental regulations at home if billionaires can circumvent them by just moving out of the country. Any trade deal should require pegging workers regulations, minimum wages, and environmental regulations to our standards. if not then anything imported from these countries should be taxed.

The entire concept of exploiting "cheap" labor is immoral. We do not want to work under such conditions so why do we think it is acceptable to have people in other countries work under conditions we wouldn't so we can save a little at Walmart and a billionaires can reap insane profit margins.

We are going to have to start paying the true cost for goods manufactured under descent worker conditions and environmental regulations, and the billionaires will have to accept a lower profit margin. The other option is that we will eventually have our standard of living pushed down towards the poverty and inequality seen in third world countries while the billionaires continue to get richer.

[redruddyred]

102. I'm taking your word for it on this free trade shit, DU.

was too young for nafta. but I see how everything sucks now and everyone's stuck in low wage service jobs and the labor unions have no traction.
why won't they let us read it. why why why. that is the part which stands out to me.

[DirkGently]

108. The logic of these massive trade deals is exactly backwards.

If we were worried about "people in other countries," governments would require businesses to provide for fair wages, labor rights, and environmental controls.

Instead, it works the other way. Businesses want to tell governments they can't interfere with "expected future profits" with "non-tariff trade barriers."

In other words, low wages, child labor, no safety protocols, and no environmental regs for all.

Slavery and zero accountability for harm remains the dream of giant business interests, and anything put forward by those interests will be a movement in that direction, however it is spun or rationalized.

[malthaussen]

110. Well, if that were really the reason, it wouldn't be without merit.

But somehow, I doublt that is really the reason, just a collateral consequence.

We could have a discussion about whether or not the nation-state is an obsolete institution and exactly what ethically is the difference between a child starving in Somalia and one starving in West Virginia, but I strongly doubt that either of these factors is of any real interest to Mr Obama or Nike. And surely the larger issue is why children starve anywhere when the world could function much better if better managed... and the corporations reined in.

-- Mal

[The2ndWheel]

112. It's a finite planet

The same way that white men aren't going to have the same say in society as the rest of society gets to have more say, simply being an American isn't going to get you anything. We're not special. Jobs can be increasingly done anywhere. Sometimes by any thing, let alone another human. The great American middle class came to be when the world wasn't the way it is now. As circumstances change, circumstances will change.

When the pie grows, everyone is, for the most part, cool. When we have to start slicing up the pie, people can get angry.

[madfloridian]

116. "simply being an American isn't going to get you anything. We're not special."

Question to you.

You said:

" When we have to start slicing up the pie, people can get angry."

Who decides we must "slice the pie"?

[The2ndWheel]

118. Exactly

Who does decide that? Who decided that we have to live based on the clock that we currently use? Who decided that money has value? Who decided there should be 7 days to a week? Or that the concept of a week should exist at all? Why 24 hours in a day? Why not 12? 10? 35? Why is the letter A shaped like the letter A? Who made that crap up? It's all pretty arbitrary and subjective.

I don't know who decides that we must slice the pie. I don't know who choose the type of pie to bake in the first place. Yours is a question that goes back a long way, and gets to the heart of, well, I guess everything really. Who decides? Who is in charge? I have no idea.

[raouldukelives]

114. It is very sad because we could use our trade to lift all boats.

That we could use our democracy and our markets to make the world a better place instead of assuredly worse. That we could demand fair trade, better working conditions and better environmental protections from the world, not a free for all for the 1% that is leading us all into certain doom.
You want to trade with us? Great! Just implement the same working conditions, wages, protections & standards we demand at home.
You don't? Sorry, come back when you do.

We are hurtling past 400 ppm. The time for playing con games has come to an end. We must retain the very ecosystems that allowed us to evolve, that allow life to flourish. Nothing else matters. We have faced no greater evil in our short existence.
It is no surprise that the weak cannot bear to look it in the eye. But it was a surprise to find just how many fail to meet that gaze.

[madfloridian]

117. 2006 Obama knew there would be "losers" in a "globalized economy." Not be "bloodless" process.

I have posted this before, but it is really hitting home right now with such great pressure on to get the job done on the latest trade agreement.

Just a few paragraphs, but there is a video and complete transcript at the link.

Barack Obama's 2006 speech at launch of Brookings Hamilton Project.

I think that if you polled many of the people in this room, most of us are strong free traders and most of us believe in markets. Bob and I have had a running debate now for about a year about how do we, in fact, deal with the losers in a globalized economy. There has been a tendency in the past for us to say, well, look, we have got to grow the pie, and we will retrain those who need retraining. But in fact we have never taken that side of the equation as seriously as we need to take it. So hopefully, this is not just going to be a lot of preaching to the choir. Hopefully, part of what we are going to be doing is challenging our own conventional wisdom and pushing boundaries and testing these ideas in a vigorous and aggressive way.

....Just remember, as we move forward, that there are real consequences to the work that is being done here. There are people in places like Decatur, Illinois, or Galesburg,Illinois, who have seen their jobs eliminated. They have lost their health care. They have lost their retirement security. They don't have a clear sense of how their children will succeed in the same way that they succeeded. They believe that this may be the first generation in which their children do worse than they do. Some of that, then, will end up manifesting itself in the sort of nativist sentiment, protectionism, and anti-immigration sentiment that we are debating here in Washington. So there are real consequences to the work that is being done here. This is not a bloodless process.

[d_legendary1]

119. So if he knew then that Free Trade was a scam

Why push TPP? Did the executives show him the two folders with the alternate endings if he does/doesn't pass TPP?

[Skittles]

127. we works for THEM now

not us

[americannightmare]

125. According to the scumbag Darrell Issa...

our poor are the envy of the world. So by his logic, with trade agreements like NAFTA and the TPP, the rest of the world's poor will be raised up, but not enough to surpass ours, that way our psychopathic rulers can get what they want and Issa's statement can still help him collect enough votes to be re-elected.

[madfloridian]

140. Well...

like I say, there's something seriously wrong with that guy.

[Thespian2]

136. K & R !!!

Hate to say...the D party must be returned to the people; otherwise, America is toast...

[NYC_SKP]

138. KICK

[kentuck]

139. We should do like Canada - charge royalties.

The people charge a set percentage for corporations to use their land or resources, such as oil or natural gas. And it should be charged at every level of the economy - not just one time. Is that not how Canada taxes corporations?

[woo me with science]

150. Huge K&R "Don't insult our intelligence."

Indeed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. If this was even the case

but these treaties raise nobody's standard of living. They are not designed to do that. And I will leave it at that.

[L0oniX]

152. K & R ...and reposting that video of Hillary. It's important we hold her feet to the fire on TPP.

[Luminous Animal]

153. Kick.