“If you lose your job, the fact that you can buy less expensive shoes doesn’t help much" Levin(D-MI)

[RiverLover]

Why Democrats are reluctant to support the Trans-Pacific Partnership
5/7/15

...If you lose your job, the fact that you can buy less expensive shoes doesn’t help much,” Representative Levin said at a Monitor-hosted breakfast for reporters on Thursday. Nike has operations in Vietnam, one of the nations included in the Trans-Pacific Partnership or TPP. Levin is a leader in opposing TPP, which covers 40 percent of the world’s commerce, citing secrecy surrounding the deal and insufficient worker protections, among other issues.

To gain leverage over TPP, he and other Democrats are blocking passage of trade promotion authority (TPA). That legislation would allow the president to submit trade deals like TPP to Congress for an expedited, up-or-down vote. TPA is expected to come up for a vote in the Senate next week.

...“It’s a small fraction at this point of House Democrats” who would vote to support TPA, Levin said. A key area motivating Levin’s objections is what he claims is a lack of adequate protection for workers harmed by trade. “We need to have worker rights and environmental provisions... It is important to have not only the language, but the reality.” For example, Levin cited meeting a woman in Vietnam who was jailed for more than four years for trying to form a union.

One of Democrats’ key objections to the Asia trade deal is the level of secrecy surrounding details of the TPP. “They classified language that should not be classified,” Levin said. Columbia University economist and development expert Jeffrey Sachs, who also spoke at the breakfast, called the secrecy “an extremely serious challenge to our democratic practices.”...

http://news.yahoo.com/why-democrats-reluctant-support-trans-pacific-partnership-184541735.html

Thank you House Dems!!!

They're our last hope, because if this goes to the Senate, it will slide through like a hot knife through butter. Not all senators are For The People like Warren, Brown, and Sanders. The votes are already nailed down in the senate...

So please stay strong House Dems! We're counting on you!!




Editing to add something I found interesting in the article, which most won't read in full~

The longtime Ways and Means member also pushed back against the Obama administration’s claim that if the United States did not conclude a deal on TPP, China would be empowered to set more of the rules governing trade. “To simply say that because of China we need to pass a defective TPP misses the importance of the economic issues and I think overstates the security aspects.”

[uponit7771]

1. +1

[KG]

2. c'mon, mr levin. don't be such a nationalist! workers in vietnam need more american jobs!

[RiverLover]

6. Oh...that picture...modern slavery.

ugh That should be framed and hung in every CEO's private plane.

[malthaussen]

13. At the risk of being completely tasteless...

... why should we give them more material to masturbate to?

-- Mal

[RiverLover]

19. ha. You went there...

[jtuck004]

39. What makes you think it isn't? Next to their first $10,000 bill. n/t

[Divernan]

70. It IS slavery - how can a 1/2 black president ignore that?

[Egnever]

3. Meh they lose me with this

"One of Democrats’ key objections to the Asia trade deal is the level of secrecy surrounding details of the TPP"

Just a stupid reason to oppose it, especially when they can go read it any time they want. Opposing negotiations because they are held behind closed doors makes you look stupid IMHO.

[daleanime]

4. So I can read it anytime I want....

great, where do I go?




(Need a tongue in cheek smilie. )

[Egnever]

5. Are you a congressperson?

[Romulox]

7. What a ridiculous argument. Poorly done. nt

[Egnever]

8. Was there an argument?

[Romulox]

9. Obviously not. Thanks for kicking this thread though. nt

[daleanime]

14. Is this where we play the....

'who can be more obvious' game?

No, I'm not a congressperson. Does that mean I have no interest in something that quiet literary affects every one I know and do I live in a supposed democracy where at least in theory I some say in the matter?

If a congressperson are not allowed to discuss this with citizens, what can you call it besides secret?

[RiverLover]

10. So, you're siding with Rand Paul & John Boehner?

I wouldn't have thought that.

[Egnever]

31. As silly as the idea that it is secret for Congress

Members of Congress have the text available to them. When they complain they oppose something because it is secret when they can read it I find it hard to take them seriously. If that puts me in agreement with turtle man so be it.

[TheKentuckian]

42. Just because a select people have access doesn't mean it isn't a secret. Lots of documents are top

secret and members of Congress and others can see it.

Can they discuss their concerns in any but the most general ways (at best)? No

Can they diseminate the details? No

Can they discuss the details amongst themselves? Dubious

Can they have their own experts review the materials? Not really

Are there consequences for releasing the details? Yes

Can they break down detailed concerns or strengths for constituents? No

Is the information available to citizens? Fuck no

That means the ship is secret and is in many ways being more restricted than Top Secret materials. This coy act is bullshit and snake oil, you know good and we'll the deal is highly secret, there are direct national security files with far easier and direct access to Congress than this piece of shit.

[Egnever]

63. What I know

Is this deal is no different than any other negotiation. The details are rarely if ever released until the final product is assembled.

The idea that this is being done any differently than any other negotiation is complete hogwash.

[TheKentuckian]

67. Not exactly, this one is more locked down than ever and yeah it is a high level state secret.

[rpannier]

57. Weak hit

I oppose the agreement but to try and paint the person as being with Paul and Boehner is a definite logical fallacy. Kind of like saying Hitler liked x so you must be with Hitler

At a Republican gathering in Iowa last January Rand Paul said he supported negotiations and opposed military action in Iran at a debate with Ted Cruz.
By the logic you just used, if you support negotiations and oppose military action you are siding with Rand Paul as opposed to Rand Paul happens to agree with you on an issue.

The above poster never said whether they support or oppose the agreement in that post

As an added note:

In November of 2013 22 House Members signed a letter opposing fast track. Among those names were Michelle Bachmann, Louis Gohmert, Dana Rohrbacher and Paul Broun.

In 2014 14 Republican members of the House came out on record as opposing the fast track in a letter to the President

So I could use the same rhetoric on yours. You're siding with Michelle Bachman and Walter B Jones? I wouldn't have thought that


http://jones.house.gov/sites/jones.house.gov/files/11.12.13%20Fast%20Track%20Letter.pdf

http://www.cwa-union.org/news/entry/opposition_to_tpp_grows_among_republicans/#.VVFLopPO2Hg

[Curmudgeoness]

22. Sure they can read it "any time they want".

But they have to go to a special place to read it, and they can't take notes or copies out. And it is huge, so just how long can you read through it sitting in some room with nothing but the TPP. And they are not to talk about it. That is secrecy.

Besides, I don't care what reason they use to oppose it, as long as they oppose it. If this is a stupid reason (and I am not saying that I think it is), I still don't care. Any reason works for me.

I cannot believe I am even seeing your comments on DU.

[Egnever]

33. Then it isn't secret is it?

Why spew nonsense when you have the ability to go read it any time you want.

The fact that they have to lie to have a position screams to me that they are playing people for sucker.

You want to be oposed to it then give me a real reason. Because it's secret isn't a reason, almost all negotiations are done behind closed doors. Is Levin now opposing all negotiations?

It's a stupid reason, you are welcome to go with it if you like but I will pass.

I don't know if I support it or not, until I can see the final agreement I won't know. What I do know is people running around spewing it's secret it's secret make me discount their opinion completely.

[Curmudgeoness]

41. You don't know if you support it or not

until you see the final agreement. Unfortunately, you will not see it before it is a signed treaty. Too late to be for or against it then. This is too important to our country and our lives and jobs to be done in a basement. It needs the light of day and we need to be able to know if we support it or not so that we can let our representatives know how we feel.

To me, that is secret.

[Egnever]

46. Absolutely untrue

Even with fast track there is a 90 day review period where it will be available for review. 90 days is plenty of time to go through it.

[Curmudgeoness]

53. Fast track

Doesn't that mean that Congress will not have to approve it after this coming vote if it is passed? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was the purpose of this vote.

[Egnever]

60. No

Fast track only means it goes for an up or down vote with no option to ammend it after 90 days to review it.

Plenty of time for people to go through it and raise objections that could lead to it being voted down.

[Curmudgeoness]

66. OK.

I still will not support the TPP, ever, and I want every block put in the way. My feelings on this are based on the other, smaller and less intrusive trade treaties that I believe are destroying our working class in this country.

[Exilednight]

44. It's currently a classified document. n/t

[green917]

71. I'll give you a reason

I oppose the tpp because it's a free trade deal and we have never had a free trade deal in this nation work out beneficially for American workers! The fact that it is so secret, and it is very secret, is just another reason for me to believe that this deal will be just like all the other job destroying, standard of living crushing "free" trade deals we've seen to date. The provisions we have seen (thank god for wiki leaks!) completely remove the sovereignty of our federal, state, and municipal governments in that a corporation can sue a city, state, or the federal government because an environmental or labor regulation is going to cost them profit and that case is heard, not in a court of law (where there may be some semblance of impartiality), but in a corporate tribunal presided over by the same industry experts whose profits may be at risk. That being said, if this deal is so damned great, why can't we, the American people, see what is in it? The president asking us to trust him on this just doesn't hold water!

[Egnever]

73. Sorry but your projection is not a reason

Sounds reasonable but all it is is speculation on your part. It doesn't come anywhere close to a reason.

[DesertDiamond]

25. Sorry, I disagree. Two things that make me wary of an idea are secrecy and ...

the use of ridicule and name-calling in place of information-based argument. TPP has been developed in secret, so I am wary of it.

[JDPriestly]

36. I'm well qualified to understand it. Why can't I read it?

Because it is a bad agreement that the Obama administration knows will hurt Americans.

Because it dehumanizes labor. It treats labor and the environment as just things that have no life but are merely numbers on a page -- as commodities like silver or tin or oil or soybeans.

Humans lose with the TPP. That's what is wrong with the TPP.

And if humans, especially working people, don't lose with it, why is it so secret?

We get to see the drafts of bills in Congress before they are passed. It is undemocratic to negotiate trade bills in secret in this manner. Maybe it was done in the past, but the standards are changing. The Republicans wanted to know what was going on in the Iran negotiations. We want to know what is going on in the TPP negotiations.

We need to lower our trade deficit, and we (or our economists and business leaders) need to stop thinking of their employees or potential employees as merely number on the balance sheet, as a commodity among other commodities and think of them as human beings and as their customers.

I have one word for those who think that free trade is going to improve our economy:

D E T R O I T

[shawn703]

38. Ah yes, they can read it anytime they want

But of course without being able to take notes or bring staffers with them, the likelihood of them being able to understand the entirety of what they're reading isn't very high. If I give you a secret encoded message and don't allow you the tools to decode it for your understanding, would you still consider the secret encoded message no longer a secret?

[Egnever]

47. So they are simpletons

Then why should I listen to them in the first place?

[grasswire]

54. now you reveal yourself as just silly.

...and not to be taken seriously here.

[Skittles]

64. I hope it did not take you that long to figure that out, grasswire

are you overdue???

[grasswire]

65. no, darlin', just distracted

[Elwood P Dowd]

55. Its thousands of pages long.

It would take several people reading it, including lawyers and trade experts, at least a few weeks to read and interpret every single thing in that monster to provide a Congressman with all the information needed to make an informed vote. Congress is only allowed to come in with a pre-approved staffer to view the agreement for a limited time while not being allowed to take notes or even give out the details of what they read. That's a sneaky way of say its not secret, while at the same time basically making it secret to all but a select few people.

[Egnever]

62. And not finished

What is in it today may not be there tomorrow.

Thousands of pages means nothing. The ACA was also "thousands" of pages long but easily readable in a couple of hours because the pages were all double line spaced and the margins were quite small.

[erronis]

11. Sorta like giving the poor a boost by cutting their tax rate

Of course, along with another nice loophole for our friends.

"There, see the economy booming? Wall Street just announced another 2% jump! Banks have lowered their risk by not loaning to anyone with less $1M in assets. Suicides among the lower classes have increased improving the bottom line in many social programs and for-profit hospitals."

Life is good.

[RiverLover]

16. Wow. I wish your post wasn't on the "money"

But it is.

Yeah, life is good.

[pampango]

12. Tariffs are already quite low. The population of Vietnam is 1/20 that of China.

Their economy is about 1/17 of the US economy. Trade with Vietnam is about 2% of our trade with all TPP countries.

Is 'fear of Vietnam' a "be afraid, be very afraid" tactic or really something to be worried about?

[Romulox]

15. What's a *little* worker exploitation (among friends, naturally!), eh pamps?

[RiverLover]

17. How about not being afraid, but pretty pissed even more of our jobs will be going to people

paid less than even in China.

There's no fear here, just anger. That's how every labor leader here in the US is as well. Pissed. Not "afraid."

[pampango]

20. And how is keeping tariffs as they are now and not setting enforceable labor standards going to help

prevent what you are so pissed about? As a poor country Vietnam has special low tariffs applied to its exports to the US, Canada, Australia and the EU. I don't think the WTO which administers the rules that apply to our trade with Vietnam is going to come to the rescue.

I agree we should all be pissed about the existence of countries with very low wages and limited labor rights. The question what do we do about it.

[cali]

24. nothing I've read indicates that these standards will be enforceable and historically

it certainly hasn't worked out that way re enforcement. In some cases things become worse.

[pampango]

30. If this is not a 'game changer' agreement in that regard, like FDR's ITO would have been, then

I agree with you.

historically it certainly hasn't worked out that way re enforcement. In some cases things become worse.

If this is "more of the same", I agree with you and my opinion of Obama will drop dramatically. A lot of folks wanted 'renegotiation' due to that terible history of enforcement of standards in past trade agreements. If this is not the 'renegotiation' of enforcement procedures that many wanted, then I will agree with you and my opinion of Obama will drop dramatically.

[TheKentuckian]

43. By then it will have already been shoved through and you'll be driving the bandwagon on the next

scam pretending it will be the magic bullet.

The lost faith will just reset with the next face and rinse and repeat.

[pampango]

45. Thanks for the analysis. But if we give up on 'renegotiating'

the terms of trade, where does that leave us?

[TheKentuckian]

49. In a position to grasp the first rule of getting out of a hole STOP DIGGING.

[pampango]

51. Stop digging ... and then? ... you're still in a hole. n/t

[Art_from_Ark]

61. But if the hole is not very deep,

you can still climb out of it

[TheKentuckian]

68. Yup, but you don't stupidly keep making it deeper I'll worry about "then what" when excavation stops

"What then" doesn't matter until you stop increasing the problem.

[BrotherIvan]

23. Here's an example

Take a look at the tags in your clothing. You will notice that more and more are being made in Vietnam as well as Pakistan and Bangladesh. US corporations are moving out of China and into new countries because they are CHEAPER and as the Chinese economy grew, workers demanded reforms and higher wages. So the TPP is only to accomplish one thing: to open up cheaper markets to exploit. The labor and environmental provisions will never come to pass, but the corporations will save $1 an hour in labor costs. And when those countries become too expensive, they will find a new one to exploit. The TPP has NO advantages WHATSOEVER for US working class (anyone with a paycheck) and many many potential and clearly foreseeable sink holes.

[pampango]

29. "So the TPP is only to accomplish one thing: to open up cheaper markets to exploit." How?

As a poor country, Vietnam already has low tariffs on its exports to the US, Europe, Canada, etc. How will the TPP open up Vietnam?

It took 15-20 years for wages in China to rise since it is such a large country with some many workers looking for employment. (China – a country where wages roughly tripled over the last decade ...) Outsourcing of jobs to China was mainly from the West which has a total population of a little less than 1 billion. There were 2 huge economies (the US and Europe) outsourcing to one very large country.

Outsourcing to Vietnam (a country 1/20 the size of China) will not only come from the West but from China itself (1.35 billion people) right next door. There will be 3 huge economies outsourcing to one country that is much smaller than China. It is already having an effect on wages in Vietnam which are surging and will likely continue to do so much more quickly than they did in China.

Even when taking into account inflation, which remained high, the real wage (reflecting adjustment for changes in consumer prices) increased by 12.6 percent on a yearly basis, ILO Director-General Guy Ryder said.

http://www.fair-wage.com/en/fair-wage-observatory/wage-developments/143-recent-wage-increases-in-vietnam.html

The TPP has NO advantages WHATSOEVER for US working class ...

If you are right and "the labor and environmental provisions will never come to pass", I agree with you. If you are wrong and enforceable provisions are in TPP, then I will disagree with you.

Continuing with current policy of low tariffs and no rules regarding labor rights and the environment - which is the default alternative - sure is not going to make Vietnamese exports any less competitive here.

[BrotherIvan]

35. The TPP sets conditions for the flow of capital

That is its main purpose. It is about copyright protection and third shift products. It creates a smooth and easy road for corporations to deal with a specific country without having to deal with each separate government. This is not about tariffs or goods, this is about exploitation of resources and labor in the most painless way possible to the corporation. That is its purpose. That's why they wrote it. That's why you can't see it.

[appalachiablue]

18. Way to go Congressman Levin! Thank you & House Dems. not in favor of the TPP.

[KansDem]

21. Shouldn't that read...

If you lose your job, the fact that you can steal less expensive shoes doesn’t help much.

Wouldn't the passing of the TPP lead to a rise in crime involving thefts of basic essentials? Especially if the GOP gets its way in reducing or eliminating the "safety net?"

I would imagine the private prison industry is watching this legislation very closely...

[RiverLover]

58. Yes, I believe that's a better term for it!

When you're right, you're right. Sadly. Good post.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

26. and salt in the wound comes from rip-off vocational schools.

We are victims of Ayn Rand, the corporate elite and Alan Greenspan

[jalan48]

27. But hey, the government will re-educate us so we know how to look better in our cheaper shoes.

[Scootaloo]

28. They're NOT less expensive

The "savings" are actually costs that are foisted onto workers and communities.

[angrychair]

32. lots of things to say

But I'll limit them to my main point. First, I agree that a secret trade pact leaves a bad taste in my mouth. We should care what is in it and its impact to the US economy, especially the middle and lower income earners.
That being said, I believe we should focus on the points that matter without sounding like a bunch of xenophobiac isolationist that bash other country's economies. The point is that countries like Vietnam or Bangladesh have a smaller economy with a corresponding lower bar to achieve a sustainable standard of living. The average prevailing wage will always be lower and therefore labor cost will always be lower than 1st world nations.
I am not saying that garment makers or any other industry, are always, if ever, paying the fair prevailing wage for their respective country, I am saying that even if they were, it would still be less than in the US or Canada. The issue of cheaper labor would still exist.
the types of standards we seek, labor and environmental, will never happen unless we bring these smaller economies into the fold by trading with them through fair and honest trade while also expecting them to adhere to labor and environmental standards that support their citizens having a healthy standardof living.

[CharlotteVale]

34. K&R

[Enthusiast]

37. K&R! This post deserves hundreds of recommendations! Thank you, Representative Levin!

[mindwalker_i]

40. Kind of gets right to the sole of the matter

[PowerToThePeople]

48. Zero buys what these days? n/t

[nationalize the fed]

50. Obama in 2007: "Look- People don't want a cheaper t-shirt if they're losing a job in the process"

at 26:50

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions." -Thomas Jefferson

[HassleCat]

52. We Can Hold Out

We do not have to give in on TPP. Where are the Republicans on this one? They're all protective and on guard when Obama negotiates a nuclear weapons deal with Iran. The TPP is arguably more important, but our GOP buddies are willing to just let the "Worst President Ever" agree to whatever he wants? The United States is still the coveted market, and we don't necessarily have to agree to anything, even at the risk of being left out. The threat that China will get to dictate more rules without us is a little suspect. Rules about what? If we're not a signatory, we're not bound by any deal they make.

[RiverLover]

59. Well, if the senate OKs this to go to a vote tomorrow, it'll have to get past the Wall of House Dems

first.

Obama & every lobbyist in DC has been working them, but if they hold strong, they could stop it from reaching the senate.

We should have enough for a fillibuster if needed...

I think we should hold a huge party in their honor if they're able to stop this thing! And then we need to elect a whole bunch more just like them in 2016. Because the TPP & TIPP will be on the table ready for a vote again for the next five years, I read.

[Jack Rabbit]

56. K/R

!!

[Thespian2]

69. K & R !!!

If this "trade" agreement is good for workers in all countries, then publish the damn thing and let everyone have a chance to read it...won't happen...corporations want it kept secret...

[Populist_Prole]

72. Yes yes yes! K&R for truth and visibility

I'm so sick and tired of this stale/trite meme ( one that was stale and trite 20 years ago ) that glibly sugarcoats job loss or under-employment by stating it is offset by lower prices. It's bullshit and they know it, but is said reflexively out of inertia.