The LAPD has been giving jaywalking tickets to pedestrians not even crossing on red lights

[CreekDog]

They've been issuing $197 tickets to people who cross when the countdown ticker is showing.

Readers outraged by L.A.'s pedestrian ticket 'muggings'
Steve Lopez

Regarding the merciless plague of pedestrian tickets in downtown Los Angeles, 17,000 and counting in four years, the people have spoken.

Hundreds of readers responded to my column about 22-year-old Glendale Community College student-athlete Eduardo Lopez, who was on his way to school when he got smacked with a $197 ticket for entering a crosswalk after the flashing countdown had begun. And roughly nine out of 10 of those readers criticized the ticket-writing spree, blasted the exorbitant fees or offered to pay all or part of Eduardo's ticket.

"It's outrageous that the fine … is $197," wrote a Granada Hills reader who offered to cover the ticket cost. "I just retired from a job in Century City, where the cops could write a small fortune in tickets for people who routinely cross the intersection of Avenue of the Stars and Constellation Blvd. while the red light is still flashing. But there is never any police presence there, except when they're escorting the President on one of his periodic visits."

This saga began with an April 24 story by Times reporter Catherine Saillant, who saw Eduardo and seven others get ticketed by an LAPD motorcycle officer near the 7th Street Metro station over a two-hour period. Downtown Los Angeles has been transformed into an urban village of pedestrians, and police have been picking them off one by one, writing tickets for entering a crosswalk after the red light flashes and the countdown begins.

I didn't know that was illegal. Neither did Eduardo Lopez, and neither did Councilman Mike Bonin.

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-0503-lopez-ticket-20150506-column.html

[villager]

1. The LAPD is just a bunch of jack-booted shakedown artists....

...whose main job is wresting their asymmetrically-levied "taxes" from the poor and working classes...

[hardluck]

2. I was ticketed in that exact place

It was a sheriff motorcycle officer. I was literally stepping off the curb when the crosswalk light changed. Got a $120 ticket at the time. He was handing them out like candy. I couldn't believe the ticket was that much. The actual violation is only like $30 but the rest are added fines that supposedly support our decrepit court system in California.

[shanti]

3. add me to the people

who had no idea this was illegal. sounds like the pigs are just being assholes, and that fine! whew! i wonder if this is SOP across the state?

[KamaAina]

10. Nope. San Jose could enrich itself greatly with this practice

Especially the part about the countdown ticker! Hell, I did that this morning, and it was down to 3!

[CreekDog]

17. This kind of enforcement wouldn't fly in the Bay Area

Maybe one of the smaller towns might try to do it, but most of them don't have their own police and most Bay Area counties are fairly urban and not going there.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. We are not meant to be free citizens that are protected by the government we institute.

We are economic units to be managed and harvested by The System so that The System can protect and perpetuate itself. And God help you if you're anything but grateful.

[hifiguy]

7. Yep.

There are no citizens any longer, just sheeple and commodities to be "managed" for maximum profit.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

8. I refer to us as fine-bots here in Chicago.

There was a news item a few years ago about the City hiring more code enforcement/health inspectors. Not because there was an epidemic of food poisoning or anything. It was to generate more revenue. They had the nerve to admit it it in public.

Well, the parking enforcement truck are all marked "Department of Revenue". That's the first hint.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

5. The most outrageous part is the actual fine is only $25 dollars.

The rest is costs and fees.

I received a driving violaton ticket a few years ago. I was amazed at the increase in fees to "plead guilty and ask for supervision".

I fought my ticket and won, but I was more than willing to take the hit on my license rather than pay that BS.

Probably three quarters of the victims had to ask for a payment schedule which resulted in additional court visits.

Appalling

[pintobean]

6. Shouldn't you be happy

that they're enforcing the crosswalk laws. It seems to be a big issue for you.

[CreekDog]

9. No, because it's not making pedestrians safer

They are being ticketed while crossing while it's legal for them to cross.

They aren't in any more danger from legally passing cars.

They should be enforcing on only the most egregious dangers, which are mostly from cars.

[tritsofme]

11. Criticize the police if it makes you feel better, but they are only the revenue collectors

for the politicians that wrote the law.

[joeybee12]

12. I always thought it was sort of illegal, but $197?

That's insane by any standard.

[Jesus Malverde]

19. The majority of the fine is administration and court fees

That go to the rich lawyers and judges.

Here is the breakdown on seat belt violations

$162 ($20 fine + $142 in penalties and assessments

Surcharges
The state charges a 20% surcharge on all traffic tickets. This means, for example, a $40 fine will incur a surcharge of $8.

List of Other Additional Fees
State Penalty Assessment
County Penalty Assessment
Court Facility Construction Penalty Assessment
DNA Identification Fund Penalty Assessment
Emergency Medical Services (EMS) Penalty Assessment

http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/traffic-ticket-fines-and-penalties.php

[joeybee12]

20. I'm not poor, but $197 is a big chunk of change for me...

Hopefully this sheds light on this, because the people who walk are the people who take the bus and/or are poor...this hits them the hardest.

[CreekDog]

21. Regardless, these people are not actually in the intersection at a time

that is not allowed for a pedestrian.

so in that sense, the ticket in any amount is pretty unfair.

in some places, the countdown timer is 30 seconds and begins almost immediately after the walk signal.

[Jesus Malverde]

22. yeah sounds like BS...nt

[Luminous Animal]

24. Why would you think that? I know I can easily cross the street in 7 seconds at the light closest

to my home before the flashing hand stops.

Crossing Market St. will take me 14 seconds. Crossing Van Ness will take 23-25 seconds.

Why should I unnecessarily stop my walking momentum for cars that are in no danger of hitting me?

Crossing on the flashing countdown is similar to a car going through a yellow light and safely passing through before the light turns red.

Pedestrians, even more than cars, should be allowed that accommodation.

[CreekDog]

28. Just because the LAPD is calling something illegal doesn't mean it is

They have a well deserved reputation for BS.

This would be one of the smaller examples of why.

[B Calm]

13. I know it's expensive for an 18 wheeler to run a red light, even when the road was icy and couldn't

stop without jackknifing the rig.

[AZ Progressive]

14. To ticket someone crossing on the flashing red is insane and predatory

[brooklynite]

15. True or False...the Los Angeles Traffic Code was developed and passed by the City Council...

True or False...the City Council was voted into office by the Citizens of Los Angeles.

[CreekDog]

16. False

False!

And you thought you got me!

so, also #fail!

Nice try though. Well, actually not really.

When you make a statement like that, helps if your premise isn't false.

Byeeeeee.

[brooklynite]

25. Then, where did the traffic code come from?

[CreekDog]

27. You just said where you thought it came from

and thought you made a nice little genius snark in reply.

why don't you go learn instead of offering snark that is false?

LEARN! Go learn. Don't snark at me in a completely false way and then expect me to hold your hand and teach you about laws where they come from and what happens when they are misinterpreted and misapplied.

LEARN the topic before you LECTURE me on the topic.

[Gormy Cuss]

32. CA vehicle code

which is, IMHO the most car-centric, pedestrian-hostile code that I've experienced in the five states where I've lived in my life.

[CreekDog]

34. And even so it doesnt appear the vehicle code makes this illegal

It seems only Los Angeles is interpreting the 34 year old part of the code, which predates countdown timers, in the wrong way.

[Gormy Cuss]

35. I know that I read recently in an SF bay area paper that even the countdown sequence is just

informational, that in fact peds can step off the curb anytime except when the solid Don't Walk signal is present.

What needs to be changed in the code is an addition of a prohibition of cars turning into a crosswalk when the Walk light is illuminated and also a strict buffer zone of cars being at least one lane away from pedestrians at all times.

[CreekDog]

39. Those are excellent suggestions.

If there is a concern about traffic flow, then add a right turn green arrow to the cycle sometime when the "don't walk" signal is solid.

[Gormy Cuss]

40. Oh and the lane restriction is pretty common in vehicle codes in the East

and in the same areas, many more intersections have turning arrows when conflicts with pedestrians are likely.

[CreekDog]

41. In San Francisco they have been appearing here and there

the other thing is the walk signal comes on before the green signal, to get pedestrians well into the crosswalk before cars can turn in front of them.

[F4lconF16]

43. You're blaming the victims.

Somehow not shocked. For some of us $200 is a lot of money, in case you didn't know.

[CreekDog]

48. I'm not surprised either, and not only that he wasn't even right

He thinks it's the Los Angeles Vehicle code and he's lecturing us?

Please.

Even after I told him he was wrong, he still asked me what the answer was.

Thought Mr. Expert might have bothered to look it up at some point, but no...

[KingCharlemagne]

52. The person to whom you are responding openly boasts elsewhere of owning a 4-story

New York City dwelling and being able to go on "political tourism" to Iowa.

While such flaunting of one's affluence is undeniably gauche and deeply offensive, it does not appear to violate DU's ToS. He probably doesn't realize it, but his posts are one of the biggest reasons for people of conscience to become Democratic Socialists that I've read here.

Oh, BTW, $200 would indeed be 'chump change' to this person who - BIG SURPRISE! - is one of HRC's biggest supporters here.

[CreekDog]

61. I like Hillary, but I don't like his posts

I think she is far more enlightened than he is, FWIW.

Love Bernie too.

[hunter]

18. My kid got one of those.

.

[CreekDog]

42. The LAPD, sadly, is kind of a joke

as an organization, they literally lurch from one bad decision, policy or overreaction to the next.

[Glassunion]

23. I'm of two minds on this.

I disagree with the fine itself. It's just plain outrageous. I'm not 100% on the legality in CA. But I would assume it's illegal to enter the crosswalk when the light goes from walk to flashing don't walk, because that is the law where I live.
On the other hand, IIRC, LA is the U.S. Capitol of pedestrian accidents and fatalities. Folks don't always take being a pedestrian seriously as they should. The fine should be more like $15 or $20.

[CreekDog]

26. LAPD is misapplying and misinterpreting that law

When there's 20 seconds left to cross, the law was never written to prohibit you from entering the crosswalk at that time.

They are so in the wrong that likely no other jurisdiction in this state is doing this.

Not only that, they are mostly doing it in poor areas.

In other words, they are doing it wrong, interpreting it wrong and just being as stupid about pedestrians as when they were ticketing old ladies crossing large boulevards with the light but not walking fast enough (or so they said...).

The same shit. Any of the morons who were responsible for that nonsense need to be fired if they weren't fired for this nonsense back then.

[Glassunion]

29. If they are pulling that crap, then it's BS.

[Luminous Animal]

30. Is it illegal for cars to enter the intersection on yellow lights if the car safely

navigates the intersection before the light turns red? No it is not.

Just like cars, pedestrians should only be ticketed if they've crossed against the light not during the time when they are safely crossing.

When I leave for work in the morning and cross Church street to catch my bus, I know if the sign is flashing anything less than 7 seconds, I won't make it across. 7 seconds and above, I'll safely cross the street before the light changes.

The light as Church St. starts flashing at 25 seconds, what useful purpose, other than revenue, is there to stop my momentum and make me wait 18 seconds and then the additional time for traffic to pass during light changes?

[CreekDog]

31. You're correct. LAPD is the only one in the state that seems to be doing this

The LAPD is doing this wrong and they have a pretty ugly history when it comes to harassing pedestrians.

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/apr/14/local/me-mayvis14

[hardluck]

33. LACS Are doing this as well

Los Angeles County Sheriffs are doing this as well in the exact same location. They have jurisdiction over rail lines that are intercity and they patrol the Seventh Street Metro Station (because of the Blue Line). The ticket i received there was issued by the Sheriffs. I have worked a few blocks away for the last 15 years and have seen the Sheriffs doing the same thing on numerous occasions. So it seems to be a Los Angeles thing and not dependent on the police department.

[joshcryer]

45. I think if it changes red when you're in the intersection, it's a ticket.

So just apply that here. If the red don't walk flashes when you're in the intersection, you're jaywalking.

[CreekDog]

47. no that's not right either

remember the elderly people that were getting jaywalking tickets by, guess who, the LAPD because they couldn't cross the street before the signal turned red?

the jaywalking thing should be a judgment call and not apply to someone who just gets caught in the intersection because the light turned red. the person could be elderly, injured or whatever, they have the right to cross the street.

and nevermind, what you're suggesting would make it illegal for someone to not cross with the light turning red on foot, but still legal for someone to do so in a car.

[joshcryer]

50. True.

It's right in any case that they should just be human fucking beings and refuse to ticket people for trivial crap. If there's 2 seconds to go and some kid bolts across, then it's obvious they're not paying attention and should be checked out. If there's 10 seconds to go and an elderly person, or even a very large group of people, is crossing, then give them the benefit of the doubt and recognize what is happening.

This is obviously just cronyism.

[rogerashton]

54. I also am of two minds

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/duck-boat-tour-bus-kills-philadelphia-pedestrian-article-1.2215969

[CreekDog]

55. Read the article, this is not about someone who was crossing against the light

Does anybody read anymore?

He was in the crosswalk with the light. People are allowed in the crosswalk while the countdown timer is going.

He got a ticket even though he was through the crosswalk before the steady don't walk appeared.



LA's wrong on this, evidenced by nobody else in the state enforcing the law in this boneheaded manner.

[rogerashton]

57. Oh, yes, I read it.

And I see that you read my link. Good.

I don't know what the law is in LA (and haven't learned anything reliable about it by reading the posts here) but:

Where I am, the numbers are red. I understand red as "don't go." And that makes sense: what the time count tells you is how much time you have to finish your crossing, after you started. If it takes 20 seconds to cross market street, and you start with only 10 seconds left, you will be illegal by the time you get there.

Unless, of course, you run, which some people always do. Still illegal, so far as I know. The red light is a warning, not a challenge. People are allowed in the crosswalk if they started before the light turned red.

My point was that more stringent enforcement of pedestrian laws could save lives. That's not to say I agree with the fines in LA. My heading did say, of two minds.

Calm down, Creek Dog -- you'll live longer. And like it better.

[Crabby Appleton]

36. See the California Vehicle Code 21456(b)

21456 CVC – Walk, Wait, or Don’t Walk - Whenever a pedestrian control signal showing the words "WALK" or "WAIT" or "DONT WALK" or other approved symbol is in place, the signal shall indicate as follows:

(a) "WALK" or approved "Walking Person" symbol. A pedestrian facing the signal may proceed across the roadway in the direction of the signal, but shall yield the right-of-way to vehicles lawfully within the intersection at the time that signal is first shown.

(b) Flashing or steady "DONT WALK" or "WAIT" or approved "Upraised Hand" symbol. No pedestrian shall start to cross the roadway in the direction of the signal, but any pedestrian who has partially completed crossing shall proceed to a sidewalk or safety zone or otherwise leave the roadway while the "WAIT" or "DONT WALK" or approved "Upraised Hand" symbol is showing.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=21001-22000&file=21450-21468

[CreekDog]

38. Yes, I see it. It's still incorrect to give tickets in this way.

This is why no other jurisdiction in the state is doing so.

The code predated countdown timers, which are informational.

It's absolutely inappropriate to ticket someone who is in the crosswalk when it is legal to be simply because the countdown timer has started.

Not only that, to make it worse, LA cops seem to be freelancing as lawyers, telling people that this is necessary because it makes traffic move more swiftly.

[joshcryer]

44. It's "technically correct" but immoral, definitely.

The law should be amended to reflect the traffic standards (the timings that the lights are set up for) and let you cross if there is 20 seconds left on the timer or something (applies even if there's no visible timer). Or just make it so that if you're in the intersection when it flashes red you're jaywalking.

Good thing is CA's legislature is quick to fix stupid crap like this if enough noise is made.

[CreekDog]

46. I don't think it's even technically correct

There are so many examples of 20, 30 second countdown timers on even short crossings that there is no way that it was intended by the law to have people in violation who cross because the countdown timer starts counting pretty much the moment after the walk signal appears.

[joshcryer]

49. Hmm, you're right, they don't even flash red.

I don't do much walking but now that you say it they just count down.

[petronius]

51. I think there are different models, but many of them seem to start with

the white 'walk' figure, and then switch to the upraised (flashing) hand along with the countdown. If that's the style, then they are in accordance with the vehicle code cited above, with the addition of the countdown to tell you how much time you have left to complete the crossing if you entered the crosswalk during the 'walk' signal.

IANAL, but if that's the style of timer that LA has then I think these tickets conform to the law, as assholish and money-grubbing as they may be...

[bemildred]

53. Fine-farming the poor and powerless. nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

56. $197 and up

[Snow Leopard]

58. People entering intersections after the red hand comes up

is a pet peeve of mine. But that fine is a little steep for it. $25 would be good. :^)

[CreekDog]

59. it's legal to be in the crosswalk during the countdown timer

remember the law isn't to help satisfy your "peeves".

[Snow Leopard]

60. not suggesting they should

that would be silly, but a peeve is a peeve. If it is not illegal, then these fines would be invalid, so I'm thinking in that jurisdiction it must be illegal to enter the crosswalk at that time. Anyway, the fines are way out of line.