I don't know who/what to believe in latest Seymour Hersh story.

[Hamlette]

He was just on Chris Hayes show and I was way put off by his arrogance (Hersh's). He says the whole "we got bin Laden" story is wrong, that it did not go down the way Obama said and Obama inexplicably broke the story 7 to 10 days before it was to be made public.

The bombshell seems to be the allegation that Pakistan knew where he was all the time and we protected Pakistan. Picking sides in that part of the world (everything East of Europe and West of us?) creates those damned tangled alliances so I guess I can believe we would have covered for Pakistan (like we undoubtedly did for Saudi Arabia after 9/11).

So, my question, is Hersh right and the alleged cover up an understandable response to the mess that is that part of the world and how we get our intelligence.

Or is this the non story I suspect this is.

[OilemFirchen]

1. Honestly.

Who cares?

[think]

2. Christiane Amanpour said Osama was in a villa in Pakistan in 2008:

http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/02/how-amanpour-knew-were-osama-bin-laden-was/

[Mojorabbit]

17. I remember this! nt

[jakeXT]

20. When she talked to Mr. CIA Michael Morell, she didn't mention it.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/13/world/amanpour-morell-hersh/index.html

[think]

23. That's interesting to say the least..

[jakeXT]

33. Stay on script, keep your job /nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. If you are in your 20s you will know the answer for sure

in 50 years when this is declassified. If not, well we will all be pushing daisies.

Given that we have had a lot of crap made up by both democratic and republican administrations when it comes to empire.... since Korea, I would say the truth lies somewhere in between.

[LittleBlue]

4. If Obama told me the sky is blue

I'd run outside to check. In general I won't believe any politician without strong evidence. Most times I just assume they're lying until someone proves otherwise.

So this doesn't suprise me at all. I trust Hersh more than the government/military so I'll believe him until the government can manage a persuasive defense.

[procon]

5. He really isn't saying much at all.

He has unnamed sources.
He drops well placed innuendos.
He makes assumptions.
He tells a good story and makes a good living writing this kind of stuff.

It really wasn't much of a "bombshell" that Pakistan knew where he was, of course they did. Go back and read the earlier news stories that came out just after the raid where the ties to police, military and govt were discussed.

Yes, we protect Pakistan and still do because they are a fragile state surrounded by hostile factions with an inept government in possession of nuclear weapons. To leave withdraw our support would be far more disasterous.

[Maedhros]

6. This story focuses on the real issue:

http://www.salon.com/2015/05/11/death_of_the_bin_laden_propaganda_machine_seymour_hersh_%E2%80%9Czero_dark_thirty%E2%80%9D_and_the_myths_of_an_assassination/

Even if you think the Hersh version doesn’t pass the smell test, you have to admit that we’ve been down that road before. Hopefully his fiercest critics will remember that after they’re done tearing him to pieces, and will turn their attention to figuring out just how true the bin Laden story we’ve been told actually is.

An earlier story by Marcy Wheeler fairly closely mirrors my own view on the subject:

http://www.salon.com/2015/05/11/everything_we_know_about_the_death_of_osama_bin_laden_is_wrong/

Concerns about Hersh’s sourcing may well be correct. But what is true about Hersh’s story is that, in the aftermath of the raid, the administration very quickly starting boasting. John Brennan, then Homeland Security Advisor and now the director of the CIA, gave a press conference that almost immediately fell apart; basic details of the story — such as details of Bin Laden’s burial — have been obfuscated behind seemingly frivolous FOIA obstruction.

Indeed, we’ve been told cover story after cover story after cover story. Does that mean that CIA torture dead-enders invented details that could conveniently attach to Bin Laden’s death? That’s what evidence from CIA’s own records, cited in the Senate Torture report, shows. Does that mean the SEALs never considered capturing, rather than killing, Bin Laden? That’s what evolving stories from SEAL participants suggest.

When Hersh brought and confirmed his story to Durrani, the retired Pakistani General, the General said the Pakistani public would be “grateful” when his story came out because “people like to be told the truth.”

But that’s not actually right. People like to be told stories. Whether they’re true or not is of little import, if they hang together and serve certain purposes.

We — neither the American, nor the Pakistani public — has ever been told a true story about Bin Laden’s death. Or even one that hangs together.

This is yet another version, no more convincing than John Brennan’s tale that Bin Laden hid behind one of his wives.

Which is perhaps evidence that the key players in this story intend to keep spinning cover story after cover story to hide the real details of what happened in Pakistan the night Osama Bin Laden was killed.

[grasswire]

7. my suggestion: sit back and watch who shows up to trash Hersch

That will tell you a lot about what the back story is.

[OilemFirchen]

9. Give us a hint.

What do expect our OP to learn?

[grasswire]

12. no, not gonna play that game. nt

[OilemFirchen]

13. You just did.

Poorly, I might add.

[zappaman]

24. !!!

[randome]

30. Double "!!!"

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[LanternWaste]

22. E.g., "I can't back up my premise..." nt

E.g., "I can't back up my premise..."

[Thinkingabout]

8. I think Hersh has attempted to write the movie version. The real truth is not exciting enough.

[Bonobo]

10. The photographer who was ready for Obama's reaction

...they had a photographer all ready for the photo showing Obama's and Clinton's "spontaneous" reaction.

Seems like it was likely planned to be used for political purposes. Things are like that in the real world.

That doesn't mean that the Admin lied, but it is part of a larger picture if you choose to be open to such possibilities.

[Scurrilous]

11. Hersh is full of Hersh. n/t

[Hamlette]

16. I fear you are spot on!

[KT2000]

14. of course we knew Pakistan

knew where he was. We all knew that if we kept up on the news. Interfering in Pakistani politics carried risks that the US preferred not to agitate to get bin Laden. Pakistan has nuclear weapons.

[MohRokTah]

15. Sy Hersh has become a tinfoil hat wearing Alex Jones wannabe.

He's full of shit.

[Mojorabbit]

18. I bet he has boxes in his garage too! nt

[Hamlette]

19. that was my impression after seeing him on All In

I guess I've not been following things as well as I think. I remember him as being honorable. Prolly why I was surprised to realize his story is BS. You should see Chris Hayes' expression when Hersh makes a particularly arrogant comment. Was kinda funny.

[JI7]

21. there were always people saying he was in Pakistan before we got him

and them knowing he was there is nothing new.

[cherokeeprogressive]

25. I suspect there are three sides to this story; the government's side, Hersch's side, and The Truth.

And I'm guessing there is one side we will never hear.

[applegrove]

26. When I saw Zero Dark Thirty I immediately felt that there

was more to the story of how bin Laden was found. As if the CIA, who cooperated with the film, would give up all their assets in finding bin Laden to the public. So I can believe that that part of the zero dark thirty explanation is not real. Abd that hersh's version of a Pakistani walk in may be closer to the truth. Obama never talked about that part of the story. Just the Cia to the movie producers. And I would expect some misdirection from them. The other part of hersh's story I don't really buy. That said we don't know until the government papers get released in what? 50 years.

[doc03]

27. The shooter himself said Hersh's story is total bullshit n/t

[Maedhros]

31. Yes - a Spec Ops soldier would NEVER lie, even when sales of his book are at stake.

[randys1]

28. Bin Laden is dead, for many that is the story that matters.

Personally I am not in favor of assassination of anyone, but he is dead and that is that

[Maedhros]

29. Two more reports that corroborate (to a degree) what's in Hersh's story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/magazine/the-detail-in-seymour-hershs-bin-laden-story-that-rings-true.html?_r=0

On this count, my own reporting tracks with Hersh’s. Beginning in 2001, I spent nearly 12 years covering Pakistan and Afghanistan for The Times. (In his article, Hersh cites an article I wrote for The Times Magazine last year, an excerpt from a book drawn from this reporting.) The story of the Pakistani informer was circulating in the rumor mill within days of the Abbottabad raid, but at the time, no one could or would corroborate the claim. Such is the difficulty of reporting on covert operations and intelligence matters; there are no official documents to draw on, few officials who will talk and few ways to check the details they give you when they do.

Two years later, when I was researching my book, I learned from a high-level member of the Pakistani intelligence service that the ISI had been hiding Bin Laden and ran a desk specifically to handle him as an intelligence asset. After the book came out, I learned more: that it was indeed a Pakistani Army brigadier — all the senior officers of the ISI are in the military — who told the C.I.A. where Bin Laden was hiding, and that Bin Laden was living there with the knowledge and protection of the ISI.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/11/former-professor-reported-basics-hershs-bin-laden-story-2011-seemingly-different-sources/

R.J. Hillhouse, a former professor, Fulbright fellow and novelist whose writing on intelligence and military outsourcing has appeared in the Washington Post and New York Times, made the same main assertions in 2011 about the death of Osama bin Laden as Seymour Hersh’s new story in the London Review of Books — apparently based on different sources than those used by Hersh.

[noise]

32. US officials tell us what to believe

We should believe them. Period. That is the way it should be.

All the real details of the Bin Laden mission are thoroughly explained in the excellent government assisted documentary Zero Dark Thirty. You should check it out.

[jakeXT]

34. Wow 93% on Rotten Tomatoes, it won an Oscar for sound, but not best picture

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/zero_dark_thirty/reviews/





I guess every nation needs a Riefenstahl

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/04/letter-kathryn-bigelow-zero-dark-thirty