Disagreement is not equal to Disrespect...

[ScreamingMeemie]

The misuse of basic, easy-to-define words in this country, this party, is getting out of hand. One can disagree with a person, a congressperson and even a president without being disrespectful.

Just as we have learned (or should have learned) from Baltimore's "empathy is not cheering" conversations, twisting words is a dangerous RW tactic. It's infecting society, both parties and conversations which could have been constructive.

TPP is under fire because so SO VERY MANY of us have lost our livelihoods or watched family members lose theirs under another trade agreement that was signed into action with much fanfare. Those of us who are suspicious and mistrustful are not being "disrespectful," we're—or at least I'm because it's wrong to speak for others—being penny wise while believing our government to be pound foolish for corporate benefit at this point in time.

Thank you.

[riderinthestorm]

1. Conversely, agreement doesn't mean one is a groupie or hero-worshipping

a person can agree with one thing which doesn't automatically mean one is a fanboi or fangrl...

I'm pretty tired of the automatic assignation of these labels. It does shut down discussion and squelch conversation.



(I'm not a fan of the TPP either but it seemed like an apt corollary, something that's been bugging me for a while, I just had to add it in).

[dawg]

3. Agreement on several issues is not hero-worshipping ...

but agreement on *every* issue is.

Especially when one was 100% against the issue back when Bush was doing it.

[riderinthestorm]

5. Ok nt

[mopinko]

20. well i think it is pretty safe to assume that if obama is doing it

he isnt doing it exactly the same way or for the same reasons that bush did it.
if it were bushie negotiating this treaty, i would assume the worst. but since it is obama, i assume that the corps behind it are NOT getting everything that they want. that there actually might be the strong labor and environmental protections that all agreed were the most egregious lapses in nafta.

i am agnostic on tpp. i havent seen it. i DO trust that it is a better deal than bushie or mittens would negotiate.
that doesnt make me a mindless hero worshipper. i think that makes me capable of making fine distinctions.

if obama hadnt been attacked from all sides since day one, and clearly attacked for the color of his skin, i doubt people would feel as compelled to find things so black and white.
but he was, and a lot of us do.

[ScreamingMeemie]

4. You are absolutely correct.

Thanks for that. It seems like it's all or nothing these days.

[riderinthestorm]

7. I know. It's not doing great things for productive conversations here.

thanks for your OP.

[marym625]

9. I agree

But I see the hero worship in many. The agreement of things just based on trust especially. Frankly, I find not questioning to be un-American

[cali]

13. It does when acommpanied with "I trust him/her 100%"

Very few pro-tpp people here are able to engage on the facts. Most fall back on trusting the President as their rationale for trust. I'm damned weary of that nonsense.

[1StrongBlackMan]

17. And, NOT disagreeing with/being critical of something ...

does not indicate support of that thing.

I have been called a HRC-fan, a Bernie-hater, a supporter of the TPP and a bunch of other stuff, despite having explicitly said, I am NOT a HRC supporter, or a Bernie-hater, I am agnostic on TPP because I do not know what the final deal looks like.

It seems that the "your either for it or against it, with us or against us" mentality is not the sole providence of the right.

[sabrina 1]

23. And I have been called a 'Putin lover' an 'Obama hater' among other things, despite the fact that

I personally have never engaged in such garbage tactics.

So maybe if people on all sides who themselves (and I don't recall seeing you do it either though we have disagreed) told their friends that such behavior isn't acceptable even from those we agree with, it might help tone down the rhetoric and maybe help to raise the level of discussion where people might actually learn something for a change.

[1StrongBlackMan]

26. Agreed. ...

Though I must admit I chuckle at the characterizations, because I know whatever preceded, or followed, is of as much value as if they called me a "poopie head."

[sabrina 1]

38. Lol, you are correct of course! Substance is never the goal when people devolve to

such drivel!

[djean111]

2. The TPP and the TTIP are being protested against over in Europe and in other TPP signatory countries

If you Google TTIP protest europe or TPP protest vietnam of new zealand, for example, you can see that this is not about Obama at all. People who try to make it about not loving Obama or racism are really delusional. The GOP sure voted for it!

[1StrongBlackMan]

18. Who has said that opposition to the TPP and/or TTIP ...

is about not "loving (President) Obama or racism"?

[sabrina 1]

39. You are correct, and even by some legislators of some of the countries involved.

Maybe it's time for the people to form a Global movement since these Multi National Corps have been Global for decades, but the people of each individual country they are operating in have been fighting them alone.

There is strength in numbers, and we ordinary people are behind in this battle.

A global Labor Movement should help to put a dent in their armor.

I could envision the goals of such a movement.

Raise wages Globally to a living wage relevant to the economic status of each individual nation. Iow, every nation should have the same standards the Middle Class used to have here, decades ago.

That current goal since the Corps are Global, is to BRING DOWN the wages of First World nations to equal those of Third World nations. And there is no Global movement to fight them right now.

[marym625]

6. K&R!

So sick of the line about disrespect. When exactly was it we signed an oath to agree with everything someone in the party says and does? I missed the memo.

[treestar]

8. You can disagree but the TPP making us lose our livelihoods

is overstated BS in my book. It would all go on as usual.

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. The unfortunate thing is we don't know that because we are being asked to "trust."

That hasn't worked so well in the past.

Nowhere did I say that TPP would make us lose our livelihoods. This is an example of how words get twisted. Livelihoods were lost in the wake of a previous trade agreement. That is what was actually said, and that is why I, at least, don't support this new trade agreement.

[treestar]

33. I don't think the powers that be

Want to rock the boat in some huge disastrous way. So to me a lot of the language used about the TPP is way overblown.

[JDPriestly]

31. It is not all going on as usual.

I spoke to a woman yesterday who works in a field in which, before free trade, there was a lot of demand. Now the demand is way down and she and her husband are separated by the entire breadth of the country. They can't live on one salary and can't get jobs on the same side of our continent. Before free trade and NAFTA that did not happen. We had lots of jobs. The job market is horrible today. Well trained, well educated people are unable to get jobs. If you are on the low end when it comes to grades, etc. the future is very bleak. TPP and TPIP will just make that worse.

[treestar]

34. One couple is not enough

To proclaim this disaster. And they cannot prove a treaty causes their problems.

[JDPriestly]

36. Our trade deficit is the result of our trade treaties.

And the job deficit is a direct consequence of our importing so much and exporting so little. That excessive importing and deficient exporting is a loss of money that would be spent here on developing our country and improving our infrastructure and creating jobs and increasing the flow of money in the US.

Most of the people who support free trade can't see beyond their noses to understand the chain reaction that importing so, so, so, so much more than you export causes in the economy.

[bigwillq]

11. Good post.

K and R

[JaneyVee]

12. But disrespect is also very real.

[Baitball Blogger]

14. Healthy disagreement is what separates us from conservatives.

You want to live in a world where the young have to obey their autocratic fathers to show respect, even though the family elder is a hardcore racist? It is happening.

Oddest thing I witnessed is a Jehovah Witness carrying water (figuratively) for an autocrat who was plugged into the good ole boy network. The patron figure in their family has an alliance with the autocrat, and is also a good ole boy. It just got weird when the Jehovah Witness' wife went behind the autocrat's house to hide behind the trees, probably to ensure that the autocrat's outdoor security system was still working. I already knew she was keeping watch on the next door neighbor for him, when he was gone.

This is the kind of convoluted world that gets created when the young feel like they can't question their elders. Sweet, nice people behave in ways that only add to an otherwise hostile community. That's how otherwise objective people help purport racism. Even children in that household are going to grow up thinking there's something wrong with "other people." So sad.

So, no thank you. I would rather respectfully agree to disagree, than to do something that will only add to an otherwise poisoned society.

[pampango]

27. Well said, Baitball Blogger. Conservatives call each other names, love to yell and get mad at each

other; do not generally respect each other's opinions - the "my way or the highway" mentality. I hate it when I see DU call Obama, Warren, Sanders, etc. "liars" or "sellouts".

Since no politician (or DU'er ) is perfect it is fine to disagree with them and point out why we think they are 'wrong' in their position on a particularly issue without questioning their motivation.

[daleanime]

15. Hell yes....

[Cryptoad]

16. Seems to be more and more,,,,

Disrespect in air!

[Andy823]

19. I would agree

Disagreement is not showing disrespect. However when name calling, like saying the president is a f-ing piece of shit used car salesman, is used, then I would say that IS disrespect.

I have no problem with those who don't like the TPP. I know NAFTA was a terrible trade deal, and I have always said that trade deals should be "Fair Trade" instead of free trade. NAFTA was not fair at all. Instead of lowering wagers and standards in the US, trade deals should work to "improve" wagers and standards in other countries where they have no regulations to help them make a living wage, nor regulations to give them safe working conditions. I am waiting to see the final plan on TPP instead of buying into all the anonymous leaks that we see being used as actual proof that it's all terrible.

The one thing I can not understand is how the president would "screw over the US", destroy his legacy, and be known as the president who gave the US the worst trade agreement in history. I just don't think the man is that stupid. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until "ALL" the facts are out.

[heaven05]

24. First two lines of your response

Thank You! Put's the last 6+ years of disrespect of this POTUS and his administration, on the right and left, in proper perspective.

[Bobbie Jo]

25. Add to that...

Screaming "YOU LIE," "LYING LIAR," in all caps is the epitome of disrespect.

We all know who does this kind of thing repeatedly around here. What's worse, really, are the snide, passive aggressive remarks that are passed off as "criticism."

Sick of the baiting shit-stirrers. Again, we all know who they are around here.

[sufrommich]

29. I've actually seen "manchurian" as a descriptive for Obama

here too. It's over the top and destructive.

[Andy823]

43. I am with you

It's really sickening to keep on hearing the shit stirrers doing their best to keep the board divided, and sadly they seem to have a lot of help with hundreds of followers who rec their shit stirring threads! Yes we all know who they are, and we pretty much now what they real agenda is here on DU, and it's not trying to help democrats win elections!

[JDPriestly]

30. "The one thing I can not understand

is how the president would "screw over the US", destroy his legacy, and be known as the president who gave the US the worst trade agreement in history. I just don't think the man is that stupid. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until "ALL" the facts are out."

It's quite simple. CORRUPTION.

Look at Hillary. Bill Clinton played footsie with the big corporations and Wall Street: NAFTA, the Telecommunications Act, the repeal of Glass Steagall. And the pay-off. The Clintons do not have to just humbly survive on the president's pension. They are doing quite well, thank you. '

Why? CORRUPTION, that's why.

[Andy823]

42. Sorry I don't buy that

While I know there is a group here that continually want to paint him just another do nothing corporate sellout, I don't buy it. So you can come up with all the right wing BS you want, but calling him corrupt isn't going to work.

[JDPriestly]

44. The only reason to want a trade agreement as bad as the TPP (and NAFTA) is that you

personally will get some pay-off if you support it. That is called CORRUPTION. Knowingly supporting a very bad agreement because you personally stand to gain from it.

Sorry but that is the definition of corruption. And corruption can be paid off through social connections as well as actual monetary advantages. It's corruption all the same when you support things for your own personal benefit as a politician elected and trusted by the public with great responsibility.

There is no way that any sensible person could believe, after having seen the job losses and the social chaos in the aftermath of NAFTA, that we need a trade agreement very much like NAFTA but stretching across 40% of the world economy. The ramifications of this agreement, of any agreement that sets up a trade court for corporations and permits corporations to supersede local and national interests and laws to sue local and national governments for damages due to financial losses incurred because of local and national laws is just sick.. Just sick.

Dean Baker pointed out that the trade court is essentially like an arbitration court. The plaintiff, that is in many cases, a corporation, gets to pick one judge. The defendant, say the US government gets to choose one judge, and then the two together pick the third judge.

Now. if you have a Republican like George W. Bush or a corporate Democrat like Hillary Clinton, what kind of judge do you think they would pick to represent the American people? A judge far too favorable to the plaintiff corporation, that's who. Our Constitution guarantees the right to a jury of one's peers in a civil trial. Corporations should go before our juries when they sue our government.

And that is just one of the very bad aspects that will be in the TPP. I can assure you that Elizabeth Warren, former Harvard Law School professor knows why she opposes the TPP. You should oppose it too. We all should. America will lose if we get into the TPP trade group.

Free trade actually takes away our freedom, that is your freedom, my freedom and the freedom of all Americans. It is a sell-out. And that is CORRUPTION.

If DUers don't understand what I am talking about you need to just not say anything. Obama is wrong on the TPP.

[TheKentuckian]

45. Bill Clinton did so we have seen this movie before so a D don't help. Want faith? Go to church.

[XemaSab]

21. We also live in a country where we're allowed to disrespect the president

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/13/world/asia/north-korea-said-to-execute-a-top-official.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

[heaven05]

22. I do not

agree with everything my POTUS says or does. That would make me an unthinking/unreasoning person. BUT with the veiled and not so veiled disrespect, from left and right in this country, that I have read and heard for the last 6+ years, it is easy to make the claim that this POTUS has been unfairly disrespected and disparaged more than any POTUS in my lifetime. I suspect(know) a lot of it is based on his skin color. Knowing this culture as I do.

[JDPriestly]

28. K&R.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

32. One way to tell if it's good is by who wrote it....

The TPP was written by corporate lawyers with input by Republicans.


Nuff said.

[cui bono]

35. And criticism is not equal to attacking or hating. n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

41. Yes!

[daredtowork]

37. If you are referring to SheShe2's OP...

I almost reacted with this exact same comment because I thought it had something to do with the TPP vote. But then I read her OP.

It's about another Tom Cotton letter, signed by many Republican Congressman, undercutting Obama's diplomatic efforts in Iran. These efforts do seem racist and border on treason. The title of SheShe2's OP reflected Biden's statement on the matter.

[ScreamingMeemie]

40. I was not. I haven't seen sheshe2's OP.

This was in reference to a general feeling I get when I see people, here and elsewhere, misuse terms. When I have an issue with a thread, I try to comment in that thread.