Rumors leaked about TPP can include CO2-absorbing, electricity-shitting Unicorns; who fucking cares?

[cherokeeprogressive]

Nothing that affects this many people should be done in private. I will not support it in any way shape or form until everyone affected has the opportunity to read every single word of it. It should be available publicly for at least as long as it would take the slowest reader to read it from start to finish... THEN debated by the 536 people who will decide up or down, and only then.

Let the people who will foot the bill for every penny this thing costs read about these earth-saving Unicorns for themselves. Telling us we're not allowed to know in order to protect us is like one spouse saying to the other they didn't mention the infidelity because they didn't want to hurt their feelings.

There are going to be people who stand up and yell "But it's always been done that way!" Yeah you can sit the fuck down. That was then, this is now, and if you want - we can talk about how many times the government has fucked people via treaty. Some of you may have an authoritarian streak wide enough to think when the government tells you it needs to be secret for your own good you believe it. You stand over there, I'll stand over here.

I don't support it, and I don't support any politician who does; no matter their office OR the letter that follows their name in print.

I understand you have a right to support government done by secrecy, but fuck me if I can understand why you think it's a good thing other than you're more invested in personality and party than policy.

[Trajan]

1. One big healthy 'Hell Yeah!'

You speak my mind

[riqster]

2. Damn Skippy!

When people keep secrets, you cannot trust them completely.

Good OP!

[G_j]

3. K&R!

[MohRokTah]

4. .

[Omaha Steve]

5. K&R!

[C Moon]

6. It completely befuddles me, as to why this isn't "front page news" everywhere.

[staggerleem]

49. Because the news media ...

... is owned by those who will profit most if TPP is ratified.

Follow the money, Moon - ALWAYS follow the money!

[C Moon]

52. The L.A. Times (yesterday) put an article on the Senate voting down of TPP in the Business section.

The article read more like it was voted down by the extreme left.
The sub-title read:
"Measure backed by Obama is filibustered despite public support for global commerce."
And that's how the article went. Talking mostly about how certain race classes wanted it to pass.

Today, I see no mention in the Times about TPP passing.
Shhhhh.

Very disappointed in the Times.

[Fred Sanders]

7. Name one major trade deal not negotiated in 'secret' and I will give you a Rec.

How lovely it would be if trade negotiations between a dozen countries were televised live, the stock markets and financial markets throughout the world would then really be a casino.

Good trade deals are good for the economy.

[cherokeeprogressive]

8. Go back and read the third paragraph.

Very. Slowly.

[jeff47]

9. Don'tcha love it when people post graphs that undermine their own argument?

Pssst....notice how the gap between the blue line and the red line is getting wider? That's not good for us.

Also, you should probably correct your graph for GDP growth....of course that would make it look even worse.

[laundry_queen]

14. IKR?

[whereisjustice]

13. Trade deals are good for the economy of the 1%. Not so good for the other 315,000,000 people

[me b zola]

82. Recommended. n/t

[RichVRichV]

17. I have no problem with a trade deal negotiated in secret.

Most deals are negotiated in secret.

I do have a problem with a secret deal being fast tracked. Fast track should be reserved for something that is open to all, transparent, and obviously wanted by all. Anything negotiated in secret should go through an extensive and long lasting review by the public once it is finalized, and modified to be resubmitted if any obvious flaws are found. Fast track and secret should be mutually exclusive. You can have one or the other, but not both, or it's ripe for corruption.


The other issue I have with these secret deals is that the vast majority of people with access to them are industry insiders. Where are the union people looking out for workers welfare? Where are the environmental groups looking out for the planets welfare? The list could go on and on. You have a very one sided group of people pushing for something in secret that we won't be allowed to properly review or have a chance to fight back against if it's as bad as we suspect.

How can you call that democratic? How can you call that anything but a power grab?

[Fred Sanders]

22. You misrepresent both fast track and the access to the proposed agreement and who negotiated it.

[RichVRichV]

23. I have done no such thing.

I understand both and stated very clearly and concisely.


You just don't like what you're hearing, it doesn't fit with your "message".

[Jackpine Radical]

78. Á propos of nothing in particular, for some reason Upton Sinclair's words

come to mind:

"It is very difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

[Plucketeer]

39. Transparency is transparency

When our elected reps are forbidden to take notes or voice quotes, there is NOTHING transparent or democratic about the shaft that's being greased for us.

I guess if we had SEEN the naval task force approaching Hawaii, we'd have had flowers and welcome mats ready for the aviators who were most certainly bent on landing with gifts and goodwill ambassadors - the secrecy of their mission only confirming the happy surprise they were about to treat us to.
But the truth turned out that it WASN'T a goodwill foray. And in a prophetic moment after the melee, the leader of that assault was less than joyous when he opined that they may have awakened a "sleeping giant". He was right - and after many deaths and tremendous costs on both sides, the giant prevailed.
But how about this? How about for just once - the giant awakens BEFORE the screwing is perpetrated? Or would be better to savor the element of surprise and see the "gift" AFTER it's given? After the bows come off, the tissue paper's tossed aside and the steaming gift pile is revealed, and it can't be returned for a refund? Please elaborate on the plusses of that scenario.

[Fred Sanders]

41. Pearl Harbor was less of a disaster than that analogy.

[Plucketeer]

53. What a handy (and point-avoiding) dismissal.

Of course, not that I expected otherwise.

[Fred Sanders]

58. Point dismissing and handy was what I was after.

[Divernan]

55. Another substanceless reply from Fred.

[Fred Sanders]

57. Just quid pro quo, unworthy response met with similar response.

[cherokeeprogressive]

63. "I know you are but what am I?" style. Gotta love that.

[Plucketeer]

69. Hey!

>I< "loved it"........ about 65 years ago!

[Plucketeer]

68. The "hand" has been shown

not so much as a pair of deuces is gonna be weak to bet on.

With these trade agrievments, we have to swallow the dealer's assurances..... "Trust me, suckers. I am NOT holding five aces! I've dealt the cards for the betterment of the American populace - as has always been the case."

[cherokeeprogressive]

48. I love this post. n/t

[lark]

66. Name the Labor, Environmental

and indigenous populations representatives that had substantial negotiating roles in the TPP? Can't do it, can you?

[Plucketeer]

72. Shoots hand up....

"I can! - I can! Lessee, there's GE, IBM, Apple, Lockheed-Martin, Koch Industries. Howz that for a start???"

[lark]

74. Good start on the truth.

However, some people here prefer to shut their eyes and make up facts to support their cult of personality bias. Note that the poster I was replying to has not been able to send me any names.

[Elwood P Dowd]

24. Graph shows we went from breaking even on trade with Mexico to losing our ass. (nm)

[progressoid]

43. uh, wtf?

Didja notice the gap widening between imports and exports with Mexico is not to our advantage?

[sulphurdunn]

44. If I'm not mistaken,

this deal has already been negotiated in secret (but who knows) and will remain secret until sometime after congress fast tracks it and votes yea on it. Then the stock market will be safe and it will be safe for you to read, I suppose.

As for the "good for the economy" chart, Qui bono?

[staggerleem]

50. WHO'S economy?

Damn, Fred - do you really think that we peons live in the same world as the folks who'll profit from this deal? Would you care to show median US salaries and unemployment on the same graph?

Remember "Dolphin-Safe" Tuna? the Investor-State Dispute Settlement clauses in NAFTA killed that, because Mexican fisheries did not care to protect dolphins.

I think I might see more Canadian big rigs on the New York State Thruway than American rigs these days.

Ross Perot was right all those years ago! NAFTA DID screw American workers, even as it increased the wealth of America's wealthiest. CAFTA did the same. And now we have SHAFTA (Southern Hemisphere & Asia Free Trade Agreement - a MUCH better acronym, IMHO) on the horizon. No, Thank you!

[Fred Sanders]

59. Unemployment at 5.4% and unemployment claims at a 15 year low, stocks at a high. Damn NAFTA!

Trade between Mexico and America increased from under 40 billion a year to over 300 billion since NAFTA.

There has been good and there has bee some bad, but just focusing on the bad is disingenuous and not worthy of a liberal.

Find me an economist who thinks that more trade in the context of a negotiated agreement, in the absence of poor negotiators, is bad thing for any economy, or jobs?

The sad fact is that corporations and businesses do all of the international trade and commerce, not governments, and that is how it always has been and will be.

[lark]

70. Skewing the facts

Yes, unemployment is 5.4%, but that's for people who are still looking for jobs, and doesn't take into account the difference between a 20 hr. job and a 40 hr. one. Guarantee you 40 hr. jobs level has plummetted since 2008. What about the fact that American workers are making far less money than they did 20 years ago? Yeah, fast food jobs are on the rise, but manufacturing certainly isn't.

Krugman, Warren and Stiglitz are all critical of TPP. Rose colored glasses don't let you see truth.

[Fred Sanders]

75. Manufacturing jobs in America are on the increase for the first time in decades.

Manufacturing jobs have grown more under Obama than Bush - The Washington Post

[lark]

76. Yes, it's better.

But it was at rock bottom and still isn't close to 2001. However, most of the jobs created have been part time work in service industries, that's just a fact. Also, look at how many American jobs have been moved overseas? The American worker is doing poorly thanks to all our trade pacts and will do even worse under TPP.

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. Better than Bush! How deep must the hole be to get the bar that low?

[frylock]

86. were gonna need a bigger backhoe

[L0oniX]

10. My "I'm being fucked hard" sensor is off the hook on the TPP.

[840high]

11. Spot on - personality and party. It

makes me sick.

[whereisjustice]

12. Excellent! Well said! Thank you!

[Buzz Clik]

15. I would agree that the truth about the details of the TPP meant nothing to the detractors.

This was about defying those in control and telling them to fuck off. Whether the details were good, bad, electricity shitting unicorns -- it didn't matter.

Just fuck 'em.

[cherokeeprogressive]

18. There ARE no details; so "those in control" can indeed fuck off.

[Buzz Clik]

21. I believe that's what I said.

I said it with a roll of the eyes and a shake of the head; you said it while covering your computer screen with spittle.

Talk about a tempest in a teapot. Holy shit. Even after you got your way, you still can't calm down.

[Eleanors38]

61. I take note of this. Of course The Guard will confiscate it.

[Mbrow]

16. K&R

give em hell!

[AgingAmerican]

19. Everyone knows that Unicorns shit skittles...

nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

20. SKITTLES would kick your ass for that... n/t

[yuiyoshida]

73. ut ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[Skittles]

87. I WILL KICK ut ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhing yuiyoshida ASS

YES INDEED

[yuiyoshida]

90. nOOOOOOoooooooooooo!

I'm cuddly like a panda!!!

[Duppers]

25. K & R

You've articulated my sentiments. Thanks.

[hollysmom]

26. I understand why you negotiate in privacy

to parry you thrust you sometimes pretend things to your adversaries (soto speak) that you are negotiating with. so until there is a done deal, you need to keep things quiet. What does not make any sense is allowing lobbyists to negotiate and to determine what should be done while in the secrecy phase. Business leaks like a sieve. Business is not interested in workers for the most part. most lobbyists are less than savory people (i.e. willing to sell their grandmothers into sexual slavery).
So the people who are involved in the negotiations immediately bring it into question. Oh and greasing the skids before the negotiation is completed, another red flag. I understand why presidents want the skids greased - no fight, no issues. just because others have gotten away with it does not mean it is right.

[sabrina 1]

27. No one could have said it better!

[Scuba]

28. K&R

[Major Hogwash]

29. No man is an island.

But, for some damned reason, you remind me of Gilligan anyway, little buddy.

[cali]

30. a stupid personal insult is not a substantive argument.

you want to argue for the tpp, how about doing that?

[cherokeeprogressive]

33. LOL, Backwash.

You can go back to the BOG now.

[BeanMusical]

77. +1

[staggerleem]

51. He's a peninsula! /nt

[blackspade]

31. Well said

[Fred Sanders]

42. Bullcrap, lifted straight from Fox, spanking brand new poster?

[Divernan]

54. Not new, Fred - he's been on DU since 2012!

Guess you can't rebut the facts of his/her post, so you resort to foul-mouthed insults. Why aren't I surprised?

[Fred Sanders]

56. What is foul mouthed is making out President Obama as a liar. And 27 posts is a new poster.

[tridim]

60. Even sicker, DU'ers defending it, with gusto.

[Fred Sanders]

71. Supporting your own opinion by eating one of your own is illogical and ineffective.

Too bad so many consider that an argument.

[Android3.14]

34. The Vaseline Gang are the last folks to realize how they are helping the rich to fuck the rest of us

"I understand you have a right to support government done by secrecy, but fuck me if I can understand why you think it's a good thing other than you're more invested in personality and party than policy."

Nailed it.

[GoneFishin]

35. Kick ass post. Thanks. nt

[Chan790]

36. Absolutely. Everybody should have been able to read the treaty before Fast Track is approved.

Proud to be the 100th rec on this. Onward to 100 more!

[Dont call me Shirley]

37. K & R "how many times the government has fucked people via treaty"

[world wide wally]

38. Here is what I am quite sure of if nothing else;

If Republicans like it, it most certainly screws average people and is a windfall for the wealthiest.
That is all I need to know.

[Left coast liberal]

40. Gotta say I'm with ya...

[Old Codger]

45. All I need to know

Is that the rethugs like it...With that information I know it is not good for the country.

[SwankyXomb]

88. We need a better name for Democrats that act like Republicans

Blue Dogs is too cute. I suppose we could just call them Republicans. Antidemocrats maybe?

[sulphurdunn]

46. Asking why Congress

does what it does is liking asking why hookers do what they do. You only ask such a question if you've never heard of the relationship between pimps, johns and money.

[raouldukelives]

47. They are more invested in Wall St than party or policy.

We know the corporations are controlling our democracy and the only language they understand is one of pixelated decimal points.
They work hard to increase that voice for them every day, they think up new ways from them to screw each of us out of a 1/10th of a cent so they can make a million alone, they labor in the interest of them & only them, and then have the gall to tell me they care about the future of our world. When at every turn all they have shown a commitment to is molesting it.

[lark]

62. + 1,000,000,000

Excellent points, thank you, I couldn't have said this better. Any Dem who supports this is either a corporatist in disguise or one who's just into a cult of personality thing for Obama.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

64. nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity. Lord Acton

Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of justice; nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity. Lord Acton

[cherokeeprogressive]

65. ^THIS^ n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. A government allegedly of, by, and for the people, is now afraid of the people.

[Jackpine Radical]

79. Not at all.

Contemptuous, for sure, but they're not afraid of us because they assume their various control devices, ranging from M$M to the National Guard, will suffice to keep us hopeless, helpless and apathetic.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

81. Yep. We're just ignorant children that need to be led by "Not as Bad" parents who ignore us.

[bvar22]

80. Righteous!

DURec.

[Baitball Blogger]

83. Shitting unicorns and shitting robots in the same week.

I'm guessing that anything that starts with the word, "shitting," is not going to end well.

[Enthusiast]

84. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

[lordsummerisle]

89. K&R!