The TPP is a simple proposition

[kentuck]

Either you are for the Corporations or you are for the People.

It's not a complicated choice.

American workers are not afraid of fair trade, They are willing to compete with any country that has wages equal to or superior to American wages.

But that is not why Vietnam and Indonesia were included in the group of nations. They are the outlet valves to permit American corporations to continue to screw the American workers.

The politicians in Washington have a choice. In the next election, the workers will have a choice...

[cali]

1. Essentially, that's about it.

And I don't even have a problem with trading with countries with lower wages than the U.S.

[kentuck]

2. The problem is:

American companies do not ship their jobs to Germany or Scandinavia - they ship them to low-wage countries. This trade agreement is no different from all the rest, in that respect. A loser for American workers.

[stillwaiting]

3. TPA also makes the likelihood of LOTS of free trade agreements being passed that are

in the works:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_trade_agreements#Proposed_free_trade_agreements

Check out some of those countries that American workers will be forced to compete with (since we have such minimal worker rights and protections in the United States).

The complete lack of respect for the American working class that is on display with these agreements is hideous. Concern is mocked and ridiculed as more and more Americans enter into deeper and deeper levels of debt.

And these agreements provide the camouflage that is needed to enact legislation that could never pass through normal legislative channels. It's positively undemocratic.

[Cleita]

4. Let me tell you an anecdotal experience of mine.

Back in the Jurassic period of my life in the forties and fifties, a couple of times I found myself on a freighter heading down the Pacific coast of South America where my father worked. All the way down we were a unloading cars, farm equipment, mining equipment and crates of other manufactured goods made in the USA. In return we were picking up ores and bales of other raw products of the various nations that would be brought back to the USA so our factories could make stuff from them. I think there were some basic trade agreements with each country and tariffs were imposed by those countries I assume. We did need the raw products we imported to make stuff from.

However, these new trade agreements seem to be strictly to import cheap stuff for Wal-Mart and other big box chain stores. We aren't bringing in the raw materials anymore to manufacture our trade good for both domestic use and exports. Now days in this era of container shipping, we don't see what is being unloaded like back then when trade goods were packed in the holds of the ships.
Anyway it seems the trade is one sided now. Our money and jobs in exchange for cheaply produced goods which increasingly we can't afford to buy.

However, the corporations are not worried because they have new markets emerging in Asia and other parts of the world so they don't need our consumer base anymore. As far as they are concerned we can starve.

[kentuck]

6. Thanks for your comments, Cleita.

The corporations want all the rewards and none of the risks. They want to be backed up by the US government, including our military, and want to escape all judicial oversight. Only a fool would think these corporations have the interests of the American workers at heart. It is all about profits and the corporate bottom line.

[lark]

18. You could sadly say the exact same thing about Obama.

He's not stupid, he knows this will hurt the American worker and American environment, however he chooses to not tell the truth. He couldn't be truthful and still push this beast forward.

[jeff47]

8. We mostly export basic food.

For humans and animals.

Our industrialized agriculture can make lots and lots of food very cheaply with much less labor than anyone else.

[Cleita]

10. I read or heard on the radio this week. Senior memory, but I do remember the

specifics. We raise chickens here and kill them. Then we ship them to Asia to be plucked and repackaged to be sent back to us for sale in our markets. I have gone off chicken in the past few years. Something doesn't taste right and often is accompanied with heartburn if I actually eat some. I'm thinking our chicken isn't always that fresh.



My grandmother used to raise and kill her own chickens and I know the difference in good chicken and that crap we are getting in the market. This is not fair trade as far a I'm concerned. I have nothing against us exporting our surplus food for their consumption but more and more of our food is being sent overseas to factories of questionable regulation to be repackaged and sent back to us for sale. This is the kind of profit making chicanery that theses trade bills are about.

[kentuck]

14. Unfortunately true.

You have to watch these MF'ers like a hawk...

[Aerows]

32. How can anyone

forget the 43 year old chicken feet that were sold in China?

What in the hell is being sent back to us?

EDIT: Excuse me, they were 46 years old

[Cleita]

34. Ugh. That's truly revolting.

[Curmudgeoness]

15. The biggest problem for the US with corporate thinking

is that the US economy is based on consumerism. The corporations don't care if they are selling goods to us or to people in other countries, but if we continue to lose ground, the tax base erodes as well as our standard of living. The country, as well as the people, will be able to afford less and less. We are already seeing this and it will get worse.

I am baffled as to why the politicians do not see this slippery slope. Lower wages here, less tax revenue for them, less ability to maintain this country. The corporations don't care, but our leaders should.

[lark]

20. Leaders are paid well by the 1% to only look out for them.

Indeed, most leaders, aka pols, are members of the 1%. So they are exhibiting self interest only and screw the country and it's people. What do they care when they and their families are so financially secure.

[sufrommich]

5. It is actually complicated though,Americans want cheap

products and a return to manufacturing jobs in the U.S..Who's going to be the first politician to tell them they can't have both?

[kentuck]

7. Americans do like cheap stuff...

But capitalism being true to itself, even the cheap stuff becomes more expensive over time, simply for the sake of profit. Just because a company can make 100% profit does not mean they do not want to make 200% profit. It's like the scorpion and the frog...

[Autumn]

11. So who gets to be the first politician to tell people with AIDS that they can die?

http://www.amfar.org/uploadedFiles/_amfarorg/Articles/On_The_Hill/2015/IB_TPP_Brief_RC_050615.pdf

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/11/8584025/tpp-amfar-aids-generics

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026671182

[KG]

9. it's not about trade. there's plenty trade going on between all these counties. i was born at night,

but not last night

and it damn sure's got nothing to do with helping out workers in other countries. altruism is never an intent of trade agreements. try the other leg.

this is about screwing working people for the profit of major multi nation corps. that's it.

if you claim otherwise you're a liar or dellusional

[MohRokTah]

12. Baloney.

It's far more complicated than black & white.

Black and white thinking is most often expressed by extremists.

[kentuck]

13. Are you calling me an extremist?

Where is your evidence?

[MohRokTah]

24. Did I say that in my response?

Where is the quote where I called you an extremist?

[kentuck]

26. Did you interpret my post as "black or white"?

And what was your analogy? Let the jury decide.

[MohRokTah]

27. Your post was certainly black and white.

I also noted that most extremists engage in black and white thought.

Observation.

Nice to alert on me, though. I'll keep that in mind.

[kentuck]

29. I did not alert on you.

Nice of you to jump to conclusions.

[MohRokTah]

30. Just returning the favor. eom

[kentuck]

31. I'll make a note.

Thank you.

[mopinko]

16. the simple answer is always so appealing, but

very seldom correct.
it is complicated. i am waiting to see the whole thing.

my thought is that in these days of multinational corps running the world, large scale trade agreements may be their only checks.
if there are strong labor and environmental protections, it is better to be at the bargaining table than on the menu.

and i dont think that the money guys can just write the rules and get 11 advanced countries to just roll over. much as they may wish to.

[kentuck]

17. What has happened to the Democratic Party?

When did this evolution take place?

[mopinko]

35. before will rogers, at least.

[kentuck]

36. Is there an opposite to evolution?

Maybe since JFK and LBJ ?

[mopinko]

37. we have never been the party of black and white.

to be blunt, i, personally, dont see why american workers are so much more important than workers in other countries. i try to be more of a citizen of the world than of this one country.
i would like to see a trade agreement that brings higher labor standards to other workers. one where the right to pollute the environment is not part of the extra profits for outsourcers.

if we have no agreement, the race to the bottom continues unabated. if we get a good agreement, it benefits all workers and the planet.

i really think that obama is smart enough to put a decent deal on the table. one that the american people would buy.
until we actually see the thing, we dont know.

i see a lot of grey.

[kentuck]

38. You see a "lot of grey"?

I see very little grey between the two sides? It is mostly for the benefit of corporations. Convince me otherwise.

[mopinko]

39. i cant, since i dont know what is in it.

and neither do you.
i am not naive enough to think it will be all roses. but i doubt it will be as bad as people fear.

[kentuck]

40. So, by blind faith, you believe it will not be as bad as people fear??

Does experience count for nothing? NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, and numerous other trade treaties? And 60,000 manufacturers leaving our country in the last 10-15 years? We have evidence to look at. What more do you need to see?

[mopinko]

43. whatever.

i am well informed. i know history. i am not naive. i know there will be no unicorns.
but what we are doing how is clearly not working. if it gives us more leverage over how workers are treated in china, and how the environment is being destroyed it MIGHT be a better thing than nothing.
that is hardly blind faith.
nor is anything else that i said.

but enjoy your black and white world. it is so much simpler that way.

[kentuck]

44. I was trying to discuss an issue...

not get into personal attacks. Sorry.

[lark]

21. TPP does not contain checks on the mulinationals, quite the opposite.

It gives them a whole lot more control and primacy over our governmental regulations and rules through the corporate court where reducing another company's profits is the worst sin. Our generics laws are being invalidated so that pharma can screw us even more. This is the multinationals wet dream, nothing to even slow down their race to the bottom here.

[MohRokTah]

25. Could you provide the quotes to that effect?

OOPS, nope, you can't.

The TPP agreement has yet to be finalized.

[MohRokTah]

23. I suspect the final agreement will be a mix of good and bad.

My desire is to see a final agreement with more good than bad.

[Fred Sanders]

19. "You are with America or you are with the terrorists", black hat/white hat thinking is....boring.

[pampango]

33. And using the binary logic of the OP, the republican base is 'for the people' while the Democratic

base is 'for the corporations'. It is much, much more complicated than that.

[Fred Sanders]

41. Outrage requires complicity.

[kentuck]

42. How so?

Simple-minded people want to know.

[pampango]

45. The republican base opposes TPP while the Democratic base supports it.

Who is with the people and who is with the corporations according to the OP?

[tclambert]

22. But corporations ARE people. John Roberts says so.

They are bigger, richer, immortal people, who cannot be arrested nor put in jail. Also, they cannot vote (yet).

[hifiguy]

28. A brilliantly clear explanation, kentuck.