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daredtowork

(3,732 posts)
Sat May 16, 2015, 01:12 AM May 2015

Belated Comment on "Did Stigma of Poverty Drive This Couple to Suicide"

Last edited Sat May 16, 2015, 02:14 AM - Edit history (2)

Because I can only check the Internet in spurts, I only found out today about this story of couple that committed suicide because they could not access resources to alleviate severe poverty: http://www.thenation.com/article/206585/did-stigma-poverty-drive-couple-suicide

In this story, a Minister and neighbors wring their hands about why this couple did not reach out to them for help. They also note (correctly) that the appeal of "asking the Internet" reduces the feeling of shame by allowing the "beggar" to remain anonymous or at least to hide behind the mask of the screen. I have often pointed this out on DU when people have questioned the practice and raised (equally valid) concerns about the mask of the Internet enabling scammers.

I'm sure this article and the notion of the stigma of poverty has already been discussed in depth on DU. However, I wanted to add an angle that probably wasn't discussed because you actually have to go through the experience of extreme poverty to understand it. Even the Minister in this article clearly does not get it. His advice is terrible. While building community is always good, he should not be encouraging people to ask for this sort of help from their neighbors.

Firstly, neighbors won't be able to help them. Problems making rent, especially, are structural problems that require regular support. A neighbor might pitch in the first time, but after the second ask the neighbor will look at the asker funny. By the third time the neighbor will start constructing negative reasons as an escape hatch from having to give yet again. So "asking the neighbors for help" is just a set a set up for future torture at their hands.

But there is a more subtle reason to avoid asking your immediate neighbors for help. When a poor person asks for help, anyone who provides help takes a judgmental interest in what they do with the offered resources far in excess of the value of those resources. Thus, for the pittance a poor person gets in general assistance welfare and food stamps, they have to deal with a crazy amount of red tape, paperwork, appointments (with cost of transportation imposed upon them), and surveillance. The same goes for every program they try to access. Do they want services from the Department of Rehabilitation? They have to be prepared to be judged on punctuality, neat appearance, and general work readiness. Do they want to maintain employment services? They have to fill out these job application tracking sheets and report to those job developers. Are they applying to SSI? Their disability better be documented up the wazoo. How many medical appointments does that take? Did your doctor refer you to physical therapy or an exercise program? Better do that to prove you're not resisting advice. Programs monitor you and refer you to other programs that also monitor you - and in return you barely resist homelessness.

Now imagine the people who live right next door to you - that you have to see every day of your lives - are also scrutinizing you for what you are doing with *their* money they lent you. They will be asking why you are still feeding your cat companion of 20 years, why you still maintain the luxury of Internet access, why you indulged in a salmon for dinner, why you haven't sold your books yet when they "advised" you, too. Yes, that's the worst part. Once people lend you money, their "advice" becomes law.

All of this scrutiny, judgment, and "tough love" encroaches on a person's sense of autonomy, long-cultivated personal identity, and basic human dignity. When all these people own a piece of you, it's invasive - their demands and micro-judgments are literally crawling inside of you. There is nowhere you can go to push all their buzzing out and just assert yourself. The daily appointments and obligations of the poverty bureaucracy tear poor people every which way. That kind of torture being rendered from the close distance of a neighbor would be intolerable.

People cry out to the Internet in hope of getting enough non-strings-attached resources to reclaim some autonomy and human dignity. But at best that's a temporary bandaid since they almost always need structural help in the form of a rent subsidy and other aid. It sucks that the highest profile "Ask the Internet" cases seem to be Red State whiners. You would think the very least they could do is admit that they voted for the party that's against helping the poor. But no. They think charity will come through for them, and GoFundMe keeps rewarding that assumption while leaving the structurally poor in a state of poverty.

I hope this post gives people something to think about. If it came down to choosing between giving up my last bit of human dignity to Judge Judy neighbors and death, I'd probably choose death, too.

17 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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GitRDun

(1,846 posts)
4. Wisdom and useful thoughts
Sat May 16, 2015, 02:02 AM
May 2015

Lol you should run for office....of course the psychology of THAT begging is another matter!

daredtowork

(3,732 posts)
7. Some people? I've been trying to survive on G.A. for 3 years.
Sat May 16, 2015, 02:24 AM
May 2015

That's a $336/month loan that goes to a landlord, no direct cash. Weeee!

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
10. half+ of americans rent and like these 2 people, if they can't pay the rent they feel doomed. Our
Sat May 16, 2015, 04:26 AM
May 2015

welfare system reacts to slowly to assist people in this situation.

RiverLover

(7,830 posts)
12. Yep, and from the linked article, this helps detail that~
Sat May 16, 2015, 07:13 AM
May 2015
• Only 25 in every 100 families with children in poverty receive TANF cash assistance, down from 68 in 1996. In Ohio, it’s about 29.

• Only about 1 in 4 households eligible for federal rental assistance actually receives it. By mid-2014, because of sequestration, there were 100,000 fewer families receiving housing vouchers. In Ohio, more than 370,000 low-income renter households pay more than half of their monthly cash income towards housing costs.

• Ohio opted out of a waiver of work requirements for recipients of nutrition assistance, despite the continuing struggles of low-wage, unemployed, and underemployed workers. This impacted thousands of people, many of whom reported poor physical or mental health.

• According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), when it comes to disability benefit systems, the United States has “the most stringent eligibility criteria for a full disability benefit.” More than 80 percent of people are denied when they submit their initial application, and less than 40 percent are approved after all appeals are exhausted. Every year, thousands of applicants die while awaiting their benefits.


Conservative leaders have shipped most of our jobs overseas & then stripped assistance for those who can't support themselves on the low-wage jobs remaining. We're no longer "America the Beautiful".

daredtowork

(3,732 posts)
14. I don't understand why Section 8 Waiting Lists are linked to particular places
Sat May 16, 2015, 12:23 PM
May 2015

This means people have to move from communities where they may have lived all their lives just to get a portable Section 8 voucher (the one you can use to buy in to permanent housing) - and you have to move to get on the WAITING LIST - which means you have to find some temporary shelter where you can stay in the mean time. Who is going to drag their family around to do that?

And if you don't make it on the Waiting List for the 1 week it is open in a city near you - that's just tough luck. Your still in poverty and still "qualified to receive vouchers".

It seems like the vouchers themselves should just be issued on the basis of financial qualification to people who need them. Then if there is a shortfall of Section 8 housing in the area for them to move in to, that highlights the failure of cities to build appropriately for the populations currently living there.

1939

(1,683 posts)
13. New England Puritan Tradition
Sat May 16, 2015, 07:23 AM
May 2015

While we like to make fun of the Calvinist Puritans of Massachusetts for their religious outlook on "sin", they did bring two important progressive ideals to our society. The first one was primary education for all paid for by the community. Everyone should be able to read, write, and figure (mostly so that everyone could read and understand the Bible). The second one was that the community was responsible for the poorest among us. Subsistence and housing were provided for the unfortunate. The churches did require that the applicant for community assistance come before the community and take the "pauper's oath" before the assistance was provided. Our current welfare strictures are a descendant of that compounded by repeated incidents like the Minnesota/Florida couple of "Scottish nobles" that were scamming the welfare system while living on a yacht.

daredtowork

(3,732 posts)
15. Interestingly they were also escaping a country
Sat May 16, 2015, 12:39 PM
May 2015

where many nobles were living off the largesse of the court - and looking down on the people who worked for a living.

I don't think people should have to beg. It's ingrained into the American psyche to humiliate the beggar. If it's possible to make the beggar "work" or at least "engage with services" in exchange for services 20x the amount provided will be exacted in return: call this "beggar's interest rate".

The "beggar's interest rate" is exacted on the streets through the way we treat people and throughout government and all poverty bureaucracies by what we make people go through in return for resources. Ironically, it profoundly undercuts the ability of a poor person to recover from an illness, get a job, and/or move forward with their lives because the "beggar's interest rate" sucks up all their time and interest rate. A poor person is too busy meeting everyone's demands and expectations to get their own stuff done.

The need for personal autonomy and choice is overwhelming: especially after a few years of this situation. As the last line of my OP explains, I think that's what "asking the Internet" is all about - at least that's what has tempted me, though I haven't yet crossed that line myself. Obtaining no-strings-attached cash allows you to live like a human being: you choose your priorities, allocate the money how YOU think it should be allocated, and put some in the cookie jar to buy something frivolous for yourself. You get to do stuff most other people take for granted but it's what actually constructs them as human beings in modern society.

marle35

(172 posts)
16. daredtowork, have you ever thought of setting up a Paypal button on a blog?
Sat May 16, 2015, 08:30 PM
May 2015

Where people can pay you for your writing, if they choose? It's not really begging for donations, although I can see how that's blurring the line a little.

If someone thinks your articles (blog entries) are of value, they may choose to "donate" in order to support your work. Your posts are very insightful, informative and well written so you might get a few "donations" this way.

I can see how even that might invite some scrutiny. But perhaps, if you're toying with this idea, this would be a middle ground or at least something to think about.

daredtowork

(3,732 posts)
17. I'm not in a position to do that right now
Sun May 17, 2015, 02:30 AM
May 2015

Due to the way welfare works, any money that gets paid to me via check or gets tax reported on a one-off basis is just not worth it. Click my sig to see why.

If I go on to SSI and find myself still short of rent money (utterly possible), then there are freelance things I'm considering to make up that gap. Once you are on SSI, it's actually easier to do transitional work. And, of course, if I can get a full time job, I won't need any extra "gigs".

Thanks for the compliment, though!

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