Fiction: Liberal Democratic voters support the TPP.

[cali]

The meme that they do keeps getting repeated here. It's a fiction.

From CA to IA, from TX to NH, the evidence contradicts that claim. And that's aside from the obvious: Democratic politicians overwhelmingly opposing the TPP- and not just in Congress. Do you really think that politicians are going to oppose something like this that democrats favor? No. And Dem politicians are running for office, in part, on opposition to it. A lot of dems may not know what the tpp is yet, but the activist base is strongly opposed. Every dem liberal group of voters I've seen is opposed, from MoveOn to the daily kos to to DFA to DU to Progressive Dems of America- and no, I don't count OFA- it's a political arm of the WH.

Elizabeth Warren Joins California Democrats in Opposing Trade Deal

<snip>
The annual convention of the largest state party revealed rifts in the Democratic base, as many activists parted ways with Obama over the trade pact. The California Democratic Party is on record opposing the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

<snip>

Warren devoted only three sentences of her 15-minute address to about 2,000 California Democrats to the trade deal. That portion of her speech drew the loudest applause.

<snip>

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-05-16/elizabeth-warren-joins-california-democrats-in-opposing-trade-deal

As soon as Jim Hightower mentioned the Trans-Pacific Partnership, people started booing.

The folksy former Texas Agriculture Commissioner was speaking at a North East Bexar County Democrats dinner on May 7 when he started reciting a list of pressing issues facing the country.

<snip>
http://www.expressnews.com/news/news_columnists/gilbert_garcia/article/Labor-activists-let-Castro-know-they-re-not-6268224.php

<snip>

Clinton’s events in Iowa have drawn supporters and detractors alike, and her Cedar Falls stop won’t be any different.

Americans for Democratic Action Iowa and the Communications Workers of America Iowa State Council will hold a press conference outside Clinton’s Cedar Falls event to call on her to take a position on the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement.

<snip>
http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/update-clinton-s-second-swing-through-iowa-will-bring-her/article_bad825bf-9943-55e7-

And why would Kamala Harris come out against it just after Loretta Sanchez who has made this integral to her platform, enters the race? Well, gee; to appeal to voters would be my guess.

Kamala Harris, Facing New Competition in Senate Bid, Comes Out Against the Trans-Pacific Partnership

<snip>

http://www.laweekly.com/news/kamala-harris-facing-new-competition-in-senate-bid-comes-out-against-the-trans-pacific-partnership-5577846

The liberal base of the party opposes the TPP. The evidence is overwhelming.

[RiverLover]

1. "...economic populism is the very DNA of Democrats."

Thank you Cali!! Great post.

Here's a similar take from an article posted today at Salon~

...Hardest to explain is the relative silence of progressives. Sovereignty, states’ rights and separation of powers are key issues to Republicans, but economic populism is the very DNA of Democrats. Their leaders are heirs to Jefferson, Jackson, Bryan and Roosevelt. When they abandon working families to align with corporate elites it’s tantamount to Republicans abandoning their base on guns, taxes and abortion. Imagine the outcry of the Tea Party and the speed with which it would primary every defector. Will even one Democrat be primaried over the TPP? Labor says it is disappointed by Democrats, but one wonders if it has a bottom line.

When Obama was coming up, no Democrat was taken seriously by the elites unless he or she embraced globalization and snickered discreetly at liberals and labor. That’s changing, but not fast enough.

Absent an independent progressive movement to put real pressure on politicians, change never comes fast enough. It’s an awful price to pay, but perhaps this latest outrage will spark one.

[cali]

2. Bill Curry wrote that. He's former WH counsel to Bill Clinton

it's driving me a little nuts to see posters I respect pushing the meme that dems support the President on the TPP.

I know there are dems that sort of reflexively support a dem president on just about anything, but they are not the majority. Most dems and certainly most liberal dems and the activist base, couldn't be more opposed.

[pampango]

3. "The evidence is overwhelming." Except for every poll. I think it is fair to say that

Democratic activists are firmly against TPP as evidenced by the links and articles you posted. They are the folks that go to party conventions and dinners.

I have yet to see a poll that showed a majority of the Democratic base being opposed to TPP and/or fast track. They seem to show just the opposite - that independents are opposed and republicans are overwhelmingly opposed while Democrats (particularly liberal Democrats) are the only group in favor.

The should be more recent polls that may show something different but I have not found them. One would think that there must be a lot of polling going on with fast track being before the Senate now and the House in the near future.

[cali]

5. when was the most recent poll conducted? And ask yourself these questions

do those people polled know what the tpp is? Are they supporting a Dem President or an issue?

And it's clearly NOT JUST DEM activists. Why did the CA Dem Party and other state parties officially oppose the tpp?

Why are the vast majority of dem politicians, particularly in the House opposing it? At least in part because they have to face voters next year.

The polls I've seen were taken before the tpp became an issue- and let's face it, the broadcast media didn't cover it at all until recently, with the exception of PBS.

Here's some info about that from Pew in 2013:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/04/01/americans-support-for-tpp-remains-untested/

More from Pew in 2014:
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/09/16/faith-and-skepticism-about-trade-foreign-investment/

It's curious that there isn't more polling on this, but I think the evidence that opposition to the TPP by the dem base is damned compelling. and the base is the segment most likely to be familiar with the TPP

[pampango]

7. The only recent poll I've seen was the one in April but that was done by a group linked to Obama.

While that link to a pro-TPP group is worth noting, the percentage of support for TPP and fast track among Democrats is consistent with that shown in a poll done by Pew and one sponsored by the Communications Workers of America and the Sierra Club both done this January.

do those people polled know what the tpp is?

In the April poll, 14% said they did not know enough about fast track and 30% did not know enough about TPP to give an opinion. Undoubtedly the base does not know as much about this as we do but that is true of many issues.

Are they supporting a Dem President or an issue?

I don't think the base has supported Obama on every issue, and they do have more of an "peacefully engage with the rest of the world" mindset than the republican base has, but it is probably a combination of both. They are likely favorable disposed at the outset to support diplomacy and peaceful international engagement (not republican strong suits to say the least) and to support Obama's negotiations, and elsewhere, partly due to that preexisting attitude as much as to the specifics of the agreement. That may change as they learn more about the specifics but so far the polls do not show that.

[cali]

10. So "every" poll, as you claimed, is one recent poll conducted by a group associated with Obama

and that leads me to wonder at the dearth of polling by major organizations (whose media owners all support the tpp)

I don't think there's any doubt that supporting the tpp is a big liability for democrats- even more than for repubs. If it were such a liability for repubs, you'd see more of them opposing it.

[pampango]

73. There were several polls done earlier this year that show essentially the same thing. You know that.

I don't think there's any doubt that supporting the tpp is a big liability for democrats- even more than for repubs.

You also know that the polls show that the opposite is true - that supporting TPP is a bid electoral liability for republicans, not for democrats.



http://fasttrackpoll.info/

[wyldwolf]

9. I think many on DU still fail to see the difference between the two

The Democratic electorate at large vs liberal activists who would vote for ANY candidate and any party who they think will support their ideology. Sure, the two overlap at various points but at the end of the day they're still two distinct groups.

[cali]

11. the democratic electorate at large is still largely unaware of the tpp

or at any rate very fuzzy on what it is. That is changing. And bullshit that liberal activists would vote for any candidate or party. These are the people that get out and do the legwork on DEMOCRATIC campaigns. I can fucking prove that- look at labor, at groups like dkos and the history of environmental and public advocacy groups whose members oppose the tpp.

And the groups overlap far more than they diverge.

[wyldwolf]

14. that's a 'progressive' fallacy - that they are somehow are better informed

When, in fact, the TPP and all it's political wranglings have been in every newspaper and news program. It could be that, like Clinton's so-called money woes, the Democratic electorate has seen the coverage, heard the arguments and are simply yawning.

[cali]

15. sorry, but of course people who pay more attention to politics

and the issues involved are more informed. duh. And no, that's a falsehood about how well covered the tpp has been. Someone posted a chart recently here which showed the number of times the alphabet broadcasters had mentioned the tpp and it was ZERO for all of them- compared to PBS which had done 14 stories about it.

stop making shit up.

[wyldwolf]

16. No disrespect but you are no smarter than the average working-class Democrat

No disrespect but you are no smarter than the average working-class Democrat who isn't on Democratic underground every day. I'm no smarter. We are not more informed. We don't pay attention more. We're just louder at expressing our opinions.

Polls are not not rigged. Stop making shit up.

Have fun with this. You'll ultimately be disappointed again.

[cali]

17. straw, straw and more mouldering straw.

I've never claimed any such thing. This I willl claim: I'm better informed than the average working class dem. So are you, I imagine. And I'm better educated and I've got a background in research. Those things, in no way, make me smarter or better, but they do make my knowledge of a subject like the tpp (particularly as I have hundreds of hours invested in researching it) more extensive than most people- working class or any other.

and the polls don't support the claim of support for the tpp- largely because polling isn't being conducted on the issue. Not to mention that of course polls can be slanted. Please see the op about the astro-turf poll on the tpp by an astro-turf group.

[wyldwolf]

19. You've never claimed you're smarter that the average Democrat?

You just did.

You're not better or less informed. You read one-sided accounts of your ideology and discount the rest. We live on a message forum that often reinforces our believes. We have no idea if you're better educated than the average Democrat nor do we know if you have a 'background in research.'

All I see is an opinionated person arguing how informed and smart he/she is.

and the polls don't support the claim of support for the tpp- largely because polling isn't being conducted on the issue.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/05/04/americans-warming-to-free-trade-wsjnbc-poll/

http://theworldlink.com/news/local/business/poll-oregon-democrats-like-free-trade/article_0ccd198b-5a78-5dc1-8ba8-5be1d790690d.html

[cali]

22. no, I did not. stop making stuff up. Better informed isn't close to being synonymous

Last edited Sun May 17, 2015, 10:47 AM - Edit history (1)

with "smarter than".

And you are moving the goal posts; hardly an honest practice. First you said working-class dems, now it's the "average dem". Yes, odds are that I'm better educated than most dems, both formally educated and due to my background. You don't grow up being an avid reader in a home with a first rate library- yes, an actual library with thousands of volumes in several different language- without getting an advantage when it comes to education. I was fortunate in that regard, as well as attending first rate schools.

I have never said jack about my intelligence. I'm not particularly interested in how "smart" I am or am not- in part because I believe that there are many types of intelligence. I'm a dunce, as my son says, about technology.

All I see with you, alas, is a propensity to make things up.

Oh, and guess what? those polls are NOT about the tpp- they are about free trade in general.

Now put your thinking cap on: Why do you think the vast majority of dem politicians in the congress are against the tpp? Why do you think Kamala Harris just announced her opposition? Why do you think O'Malley did? Why do you think the CA Dem Party and other state Dem Parties are officially opposed

[wyldwolf]

25. So you're drawing a distinction between "smarter" and "better informed and educated" than other Dems

hmm.

And Guess what. Both polls cited are about the TPP. It's the only free trade agreement being debated. You're supposed to be smarter, um, I mean better informed and educated. Put your thinking cap on.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/181886/majority-opportunity-foreign-trade.aspx

I have never said jack about my intelligence.

Only that you're better informed, better educated and have a background in research.

[truebluegreen]

26. Get yourself a thesaurus. Use it.

[wyldwolf]

37. Sure, why not

Main Entry: well-informed
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: with detailed knowledge
Synonyms: aware, educated, in the know, intelligent, knowledgeable, schooled, trained, versed, with it
Antonyms: uneducated, unintelligent

[cali]

31. fail again. the tpp is not the only trade deal being discussed

or worked on. There's the TTIP and several others. You're making stuff up again. And of course you're incapable of addressing the questions I put forth.

No those polls did NOT address the tpp. and the only mention of it is in the one you link to in the post I'm responding to, is in reference to Congresscritters and the President. It was not a poll about the TPP. Period. Stop making stuff up and conflating things. It simply isn't intellectually honest.

Furthermore, that Gallup poll was taken 3 months ago, before there had been much about the the TPP in the broadcast media.

So, in closing... stop making stuff up.

[wyldwolf]

45. Name them - and show me coverage of them.

You're claiming the TPP isn't get much coverage then saying other trade deals are.

Ah. Fail again.

So, in closing, stop making stuff up.

[cali]

50. huh. I am not claiming other trade deals are getting more coverage

I said no such thing, wolf. I said that the alphabet networks didn't mention the tpp until last week's vote. Media Matters has a chart.

All I'm saying about other trade deals is that there are other trade deals in the USTR pipeline.

the polls on trade on general polls that don't specify any trade agreement past, present or future.

In addition to your predilection for making stuff up, you appear to have reading comprehension issues.

[wyldwolf]

53. who said you were claiming that?

So, again, coverage on other trade deals since there is so little of it for the TPP (other than 120,000,000 mentions in the news.)

[cali]

55. what are you asking for?

this has devolved into theater of the absurd. Before I take leave of your scintillating repartee, wolf, let me point out that there are 18,900,000 news entries when you type in "derivatives" and I would bet my life that not 1 in 10 Americans know what a derivative is. In other words, and this should be obvious, mentions on Google news are not an accurate reflection of how much news coverage an issue is getting.

[wyldwolf]

59. It has

With you twisting yourself in knots trying draw a distinction between smart and well-informed.

You said: "I am not claiming other trade deals are getting more coverage."

No one said you were. But you're claiming the TPP isn't getting much coverage (a statement easily debunked) while claiming other trade deals are getting coverage from the media (a claim you've come nowhere close to proving.)

[Marr]

64. +1, sad attempt at misdirection

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Jesus H Christ on a hitch

coverage of TTP has been almost non existent. Go to Media Matters if you don't believe me. TTiP is non existent. You have to actively search for this crap

Activists search the crap up, that is what activists do. But seriously...coverage if this has been minimal. There are good reasons for that if you are a politician who wants it or a corporation. And since 98 percent of all you read and watch is controlled by 5 corporations who stand to make lots of money, no surprise there.

If I was expected to make close to a trillion dollars over just the copyright issue I wood not want opposition either. (That be Disney, who owns ABC and a few other major memo outlets).

Yes, there has been some coverage, the Ed Show, independents. But you really should point your browser to Media Matters.

of all the claims made....

[Brother Buzz]

35. Yes, coverage of TTP has been almost non existent, however TPP is another story

It appears you are just about the only one covering TTP:

http://reportingsandiego.com/2015/05/12/fast-track-authority-blocked-in-senate/
http://reportingsandiego.com/2015/04/22/ttp-and-senator-sherrod-brown/
http://reportingsandiego.com/2015/04/16/deal-reached-on-fast-track-authority-for-ttp/
http://reportingsandiego.com/2015/03/25/breaking-wiki-leaks-releases-part-of-ttp/
http://reportingsandiego.com/2015/04/16/deal-reached-on-fast-track-authority-for-ttp/

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Thanks for the traffic

But it has been almost non existemt. Again, go to media matters

I am not ABC or CBS or for that matter the NYT

But I thank you for the traffic.



And since an idiot alerted yesterday for blog flogging should I alert your post now? Never mind we are independent media.

[Brother Buzz]

40. You neglicted to thank muriel_volestrangler for the traffic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026675198

How about posting a link to the alert?

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. How about you look it yourself

I found it cute, even adorable

And once again thank you

Since I am not ABC or CBS my point stands

Here.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/05/11/as-trans-pacific-partnership-debate-rages-broad/203603

You guys are just peaches.

Oh and hint. Same thread you found that at. Given I removed the original article. I guess you are adding to your personal dossier. It is kind of adorable to be honest. Creepy but adorable.

I guess we all need hobbies.

[Brother Buzz]

61. Found it! The alert failed then you fold claiming the 'alert stalkers' win and close the thread

Odd.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6676331

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Yup

I found alert stalking over the subject odd.

But once again, thanks for the links.

[wyldwolf]

38. News.google.com is your friend

'TPP' - thousands of article.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. So is media matters

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/02/05/study-media-leave-viewers-in-the-dark-about-tra/197932


http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/05/11/as-trans-pacific-partnership-debate-rages-broad/203603

[wyldwolf]

43. So mediamatters says there is no coverage. Actual news sites are full of coverage.

1,220,000 results (that's One million two hundred thousand.)

[cali]

51. and I can find a million reference for any obscure thing on google news

doesn't mean much in context. If the networks aren't covering it, many people don't know about it.

[wyldwolf]

54. but the TPP isn't an obscure thing

It's either an important issue or it isn't.

[cali]

41. no coverage on tv until the Senate voted down the tpa last week

with the exception of PBS

Sorry, the majority of Americans don't read news stories in Slate or the NYT or the New Yorker, etc.

[wyldwolf]

44. the majority of Americans get their news from NON Broadcast sources

http://www.americanpressinstitute.org/publications/reports/survey-research/personal-news-cycle/

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. News alerts from CNN or CBS or NBC

Do not cover the TTP.

I know, I yet to get one.

To be fair, BBC has sent a few over TTP and TTiP. So has CBC.

[wyldwolf]

58. Yes

I've gotten several from them. CBS News has 40 of them. ABC has 23,

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Odd since I subscribe for all of them

Even things I care little for, such as sports.

BBC, on the other hand, alerts often over American politics. I find them far more reliable. I guess I will have to check my settings and send a letter to customer service, or the void. It seems to work similarly.

[YoungDemCA]

47. +1. Grassroots activists on the Right think the same

"Paying more attention" (i.e. obsessing over whatever the activist cause of the day is) doesn't make you more informed. If anything, it makes you more biased.

[wyldwolf]

48. exactly

[jeff47]

68. Yes, shut up and don't think too hard. Just do what you're told and everything will be great.

[joshcryer]

60. It's worse than that I think.

I think that focus groups are intentionally planting hyperbole, and because the media these days is all about click bait, it spurns deep apathy.

Saying ISDS kills US sovereignty, for example, people, regular people laugh that off.

[betterdemsonly]

4. I think the UK and Israelis elections prove the polls can't be relied on anymore

Too many people haved ditched their landlines. The democratic party has also shrunk in the past couple of years so many traditional dem voters aren't counted in their ranks.

[Enthusiast]

6. I question the integrity of anyone that would support the TPP.

This is a rerun of NAFTA. The President has not convinced me in the very least. I think he is flat out lying. He knows better.

When we say "our country" do we mean the landmass or the people within the borders?

Do we mean the corporations? What does loyalty to the nation mean?

We should not enact a trade deal that causes the slightest bit of discomfort for the people of the United States. Not a single job loss and not a dollar lost in wages to foreigners.

Fuck a few ultra wealthy gaining a few more 100 billion dollars at our expense.

When we voted for Democratic President we did not sign on for the G. H. W. Bush New World Order.

Will the TPP change the balance sheet? Correct the twisted status quo? I don't think so. Working people have nothing to gain and much to lose.

[Scuba]

8. I can't find anyone who supports this pile of dogshit, but then I don't know any Third Way ....

... hedge fund managers.

[shaayecanaan]

12. There's some room for cutting tariffs without precipitous job losses...

Have a look at the current tariff schedule for the United States:-

http://hts.usitc.gov/

There's some incredibly baroque and obscure stuff in there. Synthetic fibres are still subject to a 30% tariff even though there isn't commercial production of any synthetic fibres in the US anymore. French cheese is subject to a 100% tariff, French wine isn't, because French wine is too popular to tax extensively.

Some tariffs preserve some jobs, but extremely inefficiently. Current tariffs on sneakers is 48%. There are only 1500 jobs left in US domestic sneaker production (New Balance). The sneaker tariffs paid mainly by working class Americans end up being about $3 billion a year, which is a fuckload of money to pay to preserve 1500 jobs.

Same with the agricultural tariffs. The farm bill is already around $300 billion a year in subsidies, and on top of that you have tariffs - for example of up to 17% on sugar, meaning that extra energy is spent by US food producers making corn into sugar (or more accurately, high fructose corn syrup) rather than simply using sugar made out of sugar.

Most sugar production is mechanised, so there are not many jobs at stake, but it keeps a few families in Florida and Hawaii riding high on the hog. Meanwhile your average American family pays about $20 a year in sugar tariffs alone, and thats just one tariff.

[cali]

13. Yes, but the tpp is largely not about cutting tariffs.

it's a big mistake to focus on tariffs which evidently are a tiny portion of the TPP

[shaayecanaan]

65. its about tariff and non tariff barriers as well as ip

That's about as much as we can say right now.

Auto tariffs look like they will remain as well as at least some textile tariffs and agriculture. Probably everything else is up for grabs.

If I had to summarize the tpp in a nutshell it looks like a joint us-japanese push to firm up IP enforcement in exchange for elimination of remaining tariff and non tariff barriers to trade. Japans tariffs are even worse than americas .

[cali]

70. that's a big chunk, I think

but we do know a bit more from the leaks of the Environment and Investment Chapters as well as the leak of the IP chapter. Auto parts tariffs are also a sticking point for the Japanese. We'll see where that goes. But yeah, IP "enforcement"- including such things as "evergreening" of drug patents is a big deal.

[ucrdem]

18. Lori Wallach of Public Citizen in HuffPo, March 2015: Recent polling shows majority support

Americans continue to support free trade, per "this year's Gallup 'trade' poll findings":

Fifty-eight percent continue to view foreign trade as "an opportunity for economic growth through increased U.S. exports," while 33 percent view it as "a threat to the economy from foreign imports."

That's 58% for, 33% against.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-wallach/polls-show-americans-oppo_b_6847006.html

Note: "The Gallup poll does not inquire about people's views on the current trade policy agenda" i.e. doesn't get into TPA, TPP, etc.

[RiverLover]

20. Nice job. This is Fox News type of spinning. Posting something without proper context.

I wonder why you didn't post more of the article you linked??

They did not have much to work with. Polling shows that the public is increasingly savvy to the fact that fast-tracking the TPP would make it easier for corporations to offshore our jobs. And it would push down wages by pitting American workers against those in Vietnam making less than 60 cents per hour.

The tactic? Try to hype the predictable answer to the same question Gallup has asked for the past 22 years: "What do you think foreign trade means for America?" The answer repeated the standard finding: Americans support trade conceptually. (Fifty-eight percent continue to view foreign trade as "an opportunity for economic growth through increased U.S. exports," while 33 percent view it as "a threat to the economy from foreign imports.&quot

But a litany of trade-related polls over the last two decades also show that Americans do not support the status quo trade policy.

The Gallup poll does not inquire about people's views on the current trade policy agenda. It made no mention of fast-track, the TPP, or the TTIP, much less of the issues driving the current trade policy debate (e.g., job offshoring, downward pressure on wages, currency, etc.). But polls that focus on those issues have consistently negative findings:

A September 2014 Pew poll showed that only 20 percent of Americans think that status quo trade has led to U.S. job creation, while 50 percent of Americans -- half of Democrats and more than half of Republicans -- say it has spurred job losses. The same poll confirms what Gallup found and reinforces what polls have consistently shown for years: Americans support trade in general but oppose the NAFTA model of trade that has offshored U.S. jobs, spurred massive deficits, stagnated middle-class wages and contributed to unprecedented levels of U.S. income inequality.

[ucrdem]

21. Lori Wallach of Public Citizen in HuffPo is FOX, okay.

No disagreement frankly. Personally I find both Public Citizen and EFF highly suspect enterprises, but in this case, Wallach is simply reporting the results of a recent Gallup poll.

Glad to help out.

[RiverLover]

23. Total BS. Because she's appeared on Fox doesn't mean she IS Fox. Bernie has appeared on Fox.

Lori Wallach is the Director and Founder of Global Trade Watch, a division of Public Citizen.[1] She is an expert and activist in global trade issues. Wallach has testified before Congress about the effect NAFTA, WTO, and other free trade agreements have on global citizens. She has played a significant role in the negotiations of many free trade agreements by acting as a consumer watch dog.

Wallach has appeared on MSNBC, CNN, NPR, ABC, CNBC, Fox News, PBS, Bloomberg TV, BBC and C-SPAN. In addition, she has been quoted extensively in publications such as The New York Times, The Economist, Forbes, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, USA Today, Bloomberg, and The National Journal. She has been described by the Wall Street Journal as, "Ralph Nader with a sense of humor" and was dubbed "the Trade Debate's Guerrilla Warrior" in a National Journal profile.[3]

She is also a frequent contributor to the Huffington Post, Democracy Now, and PBS.[4][5][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Wallach

But I'm glad there's no disagreement about the polling...

???

[cali]

24. hey, do you find the Sierra Club suspect? How about the Natural Resources

Defense Council and the World Wildlife Fund and the Audubon Society? They've all come out in opposition to the tpa and tpp too!

What other environmental and public groups do you find "suspect"? How about Medecins Sans Frontiere? Opposed as well. MoveOn? Democracy For America?

Because your position is aligned with wonderful groups like the Chamber of Commerce and ALEC.

You are known by the company you keep.

[ucrdem]

29. The most recent Gallup poll shows that 58% of respondents favor free trade.

This is by way of answer to RL and Cali both, hope you don't mind the shortcut

[cali]

32. a general question about free trade is not a poll on opinions of the tpp

It's loco to conflate like that. Of course people answer yes to that question- Hell, I'd answer yes to that question if I could only answer yes, no or I don't have an opinion.

you really are using desperate tactics here. It's kind of fun to watch. It's just so...

[ucrdem]

33. If you can find a more recent trade poll that mentions TPP, post it. nt

[cascadiance]

57. That's like asking the public if they support the "right to work" or "clear skies"...

... in a poll, and equating that as support for various so-called "right to work" laws or Bush's "Clear Skies" initiative.

"Free Trade" by itself is something that without definition, people don't see a problem with, but if they see the details of what happens with things like NAFTA and will happen with TPP with things like the WTO and the newer ISDS provisions of TPP that take away our sovereignty, the polls would be VERY DIFFERENT!

[jeff47]

69. We already have free trade with the TPP countries.

So why do we need this deal again?

(For anyone who wants to be pedantic: The countries that make up 80% of the GDP covered by the TPP already have free trade agreements with the US. Japan makes up an additional 12% of GDP, but only has a tariff of 1.2%. If that was such a massive barrier to trade, then the US economy would be getting annihilated by sales taxes many times that. That leaves a whopping 8% of GDP, and none of them have very large tariffs on US goods. In other words, the markets are already open to the US. We don't need the TPP to open those markets.)

[ucrdem]

71. Not Japan, and your numbers are sloppy, as I pointed out earlier.

Japan's tariffs vary by product but about 20% of them exceed 5%per this graph:



link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6687534

[jeff47]

72. How horrible of me to use the average tariff actually paid.

Oh wait, it would actually show what's being saved.

[ananda]

27. Agree.

False meme.

[Mnpaul]

28. I don't think many understand what it means to be a liberal

Favoring a few social programs does not make you are liberal.

[RiverLover]

30. +1 /nt

[wyldwolf]

46. What does it mean to be a liberal?

[YoungDemCA]

49. No True Scots...er, Liberal

[Mnpaul]

66. Google has several good descriptions

Liberals believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need.

Classical liberalism, a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal

I would put liberals left of center on the left/right scale and on the libertarian side of the libertarian/authoritarian scale.

[onecaliberal]

52. Exactly! Another reason to abandon corporate national party.

Working people know this is an epic disaster.

[darkangel218]

67. K&R!

[PowerToThePeople]

74. Fuck third way Republican ideology. n/t