Here the Fuck We Go.....9 shot dead..

[busterbrown]

more injured in Biker Brawl in Texas... NRA will have difficulty explaining this one..

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/05/17/multiple-deaths-reported-in-waco-restaurant-melee/27500575/

[onehandle]

1. Once guns are used illegally they wash their hands of it.

Their blood soaked hands.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

2. Which ones were the good guys with the guns, and which the bad guys?

Or does simply being the ones who survive the determinant of what makes you the 'good guy with a gun'?

[hack89]

11. Considering there were two criminal gangs shooting it out

there were no good guys until the cops showed up.

[Glitterati]

13. The cops were THERE.

They watched it go down and started shooting.

READ the damned story.

[hack89]

14. So there were good guys with guns there.

What's your beef?

[Glitterati]

16. What's my beef? Let's start with NINE DEAD!

and 18 injured.

Jackass.

[hack89]

29. So make it illegal for criminal gangs to kill each other with illegal weapons

Last edited Mon May 18, 2015, 10:22 AM - Edit history (2)

problem solved. That is the issue isn't it - not enough gun laws?

[JonLP24]

221. LOL at until the cops showed up -- another gang with guns

members of criminal gangs are probably the only ones that really need a gun for self-protection otherwise a dog decreases your odds more than a gun & most property criminals don't want to kill you but just want your stuff.

[JaneyVee]

3. If only someone had a gun none of this would of happened.

[valerief]

253. When will people learn that guns **prevent** gunshots?

[Buzz Clik]

4. NRA speaks only for the manufacturers. Everyone else can go slug rats.

Their rationalizations are thin and hollow, and they don't care.

[MohRokTah]

5. No good guys with guns.

[Lint Head]

6. Open carry is so wonderful for Texas. Things are going to be

so safe now that things are like they use to be in those happy go lucky old west days. Gingham dresses. Old men gathered 'round the cracker barrel telling stories about their past conquests and little children eating candy sticks the store proprietor gave them. Side arms just gives one that warm feeling of old time western security we have all learned to know and love.

[maryellen99]

7. The restaurant should get some of the blame

The police told them that there was going to be trouble and the restaurant refused to cooperate with law enforcement.

[dumbcat]

8. What open carry?

They do not have open carry of handguns in Texas.

[Lint Head]

9. It is sarcasm regarding the obvious vote that is about to happen.

http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/2015/04/after-being-delayed-this-week-house-is-expected-to-vote-on-friday-on-open-carry-bill.html/

[dumbcat]

44. You're a bit behind

The votes were in April. Both the Texas house and senate passed different versions. They went to a reconciliation committee, where it died at the end of the legislative session.

Still no open carry of sidearms (handguns) in Texas.

[Lint Head]

53. Good. Hope it stays that way.

[pinboy3niner]

68. Texas Lawmakers Talk About Expanding Gun Rights Day After Mass Shooting

By Ahiza Garcia
Published May 18, 2015, 4:23 PM EDT

The day after a mass shooting between rival biker gangs in Texas left nine people dead, lawmakers in the state discussed a bill on Monday that would allow licensed gun owners to openly carry their weapons in public.

The bill, heard on Monday before the Senate state affairs committee, was expected to pass and reach Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R), the Associated Press reported.

Previously, Abbott has said he supported an open carry law. His office did not immediately return TPM’s request for comment about whether the shooting would change things.

Assistant Chief Troy Gay from the Austin Police Department spoke during the hearing and made mention of Sunday’s shooting in Waco when he said open carry would have confused and complicated the efforts of law enforcement during “chaotic situations.”

...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026690638

[HoustonDave]

84. Open carry

It may be noted that the proposed "open carry" law in Texas is only for LICENSED gun owners who have concealed carry permits which require background checks, classes, and range qualification. Contrary to the elitist "oh, hell, it's just a bunch of dumb Texans" attitude, it is noteworthy that Texas has more restrictions on open and concealed carry, as well as more stringent license requirements, than many of not most states.

I suspect the reasoning of most lawmakers is that changing a bill which only allows for licensed open carry based on the actions of a comparative few criminals who openly brag of being outlaws is tantamount to ordering the euthanasia of house cats due to dogfights between pitbulls.

[JonLP24]

227. As soon as you said classes

I knew they were more restrictive than "concealed" carry if that is the same thing as "open carry" which allows for it for any gun holder which was alright with me as I don't see the increase in danger with that. I remember a mostly liberal friend bought a gun after the concealed carry laws passed because he was worried so he bought a gun to protect himself and was concealed most of the time though don't know if this is the same as "open carry" but I don't understand your euthanasia example though I know what you're trying to say but I don't see euthanizing the pit-bulls to be the solution to the dogfight

[JonLP24]

223. The old west had restrictive gun laws

The shootout at the OK Corral was over the gang not checking their guns when they rode into town.

[GGJohn]

228. Very few old west towns had restrictive gun laws, and those that did,

were selective, only the "respectable" parts of the towns were restricted, but the "red light district" of those towns were wide open.

[JonLP24]

232. I'm not sure what the percentages are

but "carrying guns into town" was seen as a big problem in more than just Tombstone and other places had similar laws. There are a lot of myths of the old west, particularly with shootouts as the Tombstone one is so overrated but the Canyon Diablo Shootout in Arizona is more interesting, especially the exhuming the corpse for one final drink but the impression is this was common and it was in places like "The Hellhole of the Pacific" Aberdeen, Washington and Billy "The Ghoul" so there is a myth of the gun control or lack of but there was a lot of demand for it in the 1880s where checking in your guns was as common as giving your coat to the restaurant -- Tombstone's law was far from unusual and understand there were inconsistencies with who the rules applied to and didn't apply but the argument that today would lead back to that is probably off because of many differences not just the gun laws -- there is a headstone in Tombstone "He was right, we was wrong, but we strung him up and now he's gone" the crime -- horse theft. They were "tough on crime" as well.

on edit -- “any person or persons found carrying concealed weapons in the city of Dodge or violating the laws of the State shall be dealt with according to law.”

[GGJohn]

234. What's facsinating is the the eastern cities, NY, Boston, etc.

were much more violent than than western cities, but you're correct, shoot outs like the OK Corral were rare.
I've done extensive studies on gun laws in the old western towns and there weren't a lot of towns that had Tombstone style gun laws, and, again, those laws were selectively enforced.

Good post, I enjoyed reading it and look forward to more.

[JonLP24]

241. Don't know the history of the East

or anything more than the civil war or The Dakota War of 1862 in the Minnesota area or reconstruction but nothing deep or extensive except the Dakota War and Little Crow I know very well. I figure there was more established rules or areas

The lax or the "checking guns" aspect were missing in the Outlaw towns -- they seemed to have the "Hellhole nickname" as with Aberdeen--also "The port of missing men" with a lot of whorehouses. Canyon Diable was the "Hellhole of the West" which is why they probably fled there instead of Flagstaff after robbing the saloon in Winslow. They ordered a drink to come in casual but wasted no time pulling the robbery so after the Sheriff killed one -- but leaving the unfinished drink they decided to give it to him. This is the photo of the corpse that hung in the saloon in Winslow until the place shut down



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canyon_Diablo_Shootout

I don't know what was selectively enforced or where but definitely know of the lawless areas but it wasn't the white hats & black hats like in the old Western movies but it is the same way today as I remember complaints over how money the Occupy protestors were costing but the police here seem to waste a lot of time "watching the bums" at CASS quickly ordering people off a street no one drives through except police cars.

[bigtree]

10. tear gas, riot gear, pepper spray?

Noble PHA @PHANoble357 · 3h 3 hours ago
Damn nobody in handcuffs?! #WacoTexas



Lnonblonde @Lnonblonde
Texas: White Bikers After Shootout Protected By Cops.
Baltimore: Black Peaceful Protester Pepper Sprayed & Dragged




Bijan C. Bayne @bijancbayne
Let me get this straight: Walter Scott was scary. Rodney King was scary. 300 bikers converged, armed to the teeth, and police "watched".

Charles M. Blow ‏@CharlesMBlow 3h3 hours ago
When are we going to start asking how many of the ppl in the #Waco slaughter grew up in single-parent homes? Oh, that's right...

[HoustonDave]

80. Resistance?

Wonder how much they resisted and fought the cops? Oddly, that does seem to affect how the cops react.

[bigtree]

90. that's some far-fetched assumption you're making

...that arrested protesters were actually 'resisting.' Besides being a baseless generalization, it's also a bullshit charge police use to justify their brutalization against unarmed demonstrators.

At least 100 guns were confiscated from the bikers after 9 of them were massacred. Police had advance notice of the gathering, yet no riot gear, no snatch and grab, no bullhorn threats.

[HoustonDave]

95. Threat perception

Well, I do see cops carrying rifles, which is a significant deterrent... but it does appear they expected less resistance - apparently correctly - than in some other cases where participants were throwing rocks, Molotov cocktails, etc. (It may also be that 'the word' went out before hand - start trouble and the response will be overwhelming so no violence against cops! - it happens and it is effective.) Too, recent reports say at least 4 of the dead were probably killed by the police. When the police start actually shooting, that is a significant event that tends to quell resistance immediately. If anything, the police escalated to a far higher level much faster here.

[JonLP24]

229. Your going overboard

The problems began with kettling -- kids leaving the school were blocked off to their metro stops (city passes are given to Junior high and over) and blocked off -- the NYPD does this a lot. Hell, you can see the wall of police officers blocking off an intersection in the CVS photos but "threat perception" has a lot to do with one's color of their skin. You say they assessed the situation correctly but what if they were walling them in, closing, deliberately causing a stressful environment until something pops?

[Cassidy1]

12. I've said it before and I will say it again...

Nobody should have guns except the police. No exceptions. You have to be trained. You have to know what you are doing. It's not a toy or a hobby.

[hack89]

15. Just repeal the 2A. Then repeal the state Constitutions. Then you will be all set. Nt

[Cassidy1]

20. 2a was meant for militias, not citizens.

The state constitutions have to follow the US constitution.

[hack89]

28. Heller, the Democratic Party platform and the president all say otherwise

as for the state constitutions - you would be wrong.

[Cassidy1]

60. They're wrong

[hack89]

69. It is still the law of the land

you have a lot of work ahead of you. Have fun.

[Cassidy1]

75. I did not know so many gun advocates were on here.

Is this site conservative or what?

[hack89]

81. There are many pro-gun Democrats

being anti-gun is not a litmus test like abortion, marriage equality and racial/gender rights.

[Cassidy1]

105. some of them are in the wrong party.

Some of them are even traitorous. Don't know why they even bother.

[hack89]

117. For disagreeing with you about gun control?

you need to get over yourself.

[Cassidy1]

123. get over myself?

lol

[GGJohn]

129. Yeah,

GTFOY.
Are you a calculus teacher?

[Cassidy1]

138. Calculus?

What is gtfoy?

[GGJohn]

122. And some are just pure annoying.

(hint, hint)

[Marengo]

166. Who is "traitorous"?

[oneshooter]

168. Apparently anybody that does not agree with her. n/t

[Cassidy1]

173. Agree with who?

[Cassidy1]

172. The people who belong with the right wingers and libertarians.

They sure don't belong with Democrats.

[GGJohn]

175. So, let me get this straight,

you're claiming that those that have a different political philosophy than yours are traitors?

[Cassidy1]

193. Not MY philosphy

But the generally accepted view of the group.

[GGJohn]

197. It is?

That's funny, because that's not my view of this group, most agree that the Republicans are fucking idiots that are fucking up the country, but few have accused them of being traitors.

Maybe you should read what constitutes treason.

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A3Sec3.html

U.S. Constitution - Article 3 Section 3

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

[Cassidy1]

198. Well to each his own I guess

Maybe you don't get out much with other Democrats. Because that IS their view. And really I don't see an issue that matches with Republicans. Democrats enthusiastically advocating for guns at the expense of real issues makes them a waste in my book. Might as well be Republican.

[GGJohn]

202. Well to each his own I guess.

I advocate for all rights, not just the 2A.
Where I live, that is not the view of most Dems.

[Cassidy1]

209. ok where do you live?

[GGJohn]

214. I've made no secret of where I live,

look it up.

[Marengo]

187. Who "belongs" with right wingers?

[Cassidy1]

194. I'll leave that up to you

Seems to me some are fringe elements or belong elsewhere. Yes, "belong." Is that a bad word?

[Adrahil]

32. Hmmm... A couple of bowls of wrong there.

First off, the militia clause is explanatory, not restrictive. At the time, the militia consisted of all adult men, who supplied their OWN arms for use. The language used is a bit confusing to modern eyes, but that form of language is common in the period.

Secondly, state constitutions can extend more rights to individuals, they just can't reescind rights the U.S. constitutions guarantees (see 14th Amendment).

[Cassidy1]

47. The definition of militias is clear.

The definition is obfuscated.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

71. Federal law defines the militia as ALL able-bodied males 18 to 45 and all able-bodied females

18 to 45 if they are prior military service.

Seeing as the militia has traditionally been responsible for supplying their own weapons the people need sufficient access to arms.

[Cassidy1]

76. Where is that defined?

What statute?

[HoustonDave]

83. Militia

U.S. Code › Title 10 › Subtitle A › Part I › Chapter 13 › § 311 defines two types of militias, the formal organized militia and the unorganized militia, defined as those not members of groups like the National Guard etc. This predates the current Supreme Court, by the way.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

87. You're probably viewed as a real wet blanket by him now

[Cassidy1]

108. off topic

I have to look up that saying and where it originated.

[Cassidy1]

107. That needs to be changed

[Codeine]

34. The Supreme Court decided differently. nt

[dbackjon]

37. So now you're a fan of the Roberts court?

Are Roberts Alito Scalia and Thomas and Kennedy on your Christmas card list?

[Codeine]

38. Just pointing out a reality.

Rightly or wrongly the question has been aske and answered and it's likely to be a generation before it's revisited.

[dbackjon]

45. One shouldn't use a Roberts court 5-4 decision as justification for anything

hopefully, with REAL justices, all of these travesties will be overturned, including Heller

[Cassidy1]

65. Heller was a travesty

You will see violence skyrocket. Look at Waco.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

72. Gun control is in full retreat nationwide & the homicide rate is entering its 3rd decade in decline.

[Cassidy1]

74. just wait

It will cycle back around.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

88. Based on what?

[Cassidy1]

104. based on history being cyclical

[Nuclear Unicorn]

112. Then the presence or absence of gun control laws are not a determining factor.

Once upon a time in America you could order guns to be delivered in the mail from a Sears & Roebuck catalog and the gun homicide rate was much lower. Then we had gun control utopias such as Washington DC and Chicago that were veritable war zones of violent crime.

What is cyclical is human vanity thinking they can control other humans. We think we can control human nature -- we pass a bunch of laws to test our theories -- it blows up in our face -- we learn our lesson -- we forget our lesson -- we think we can control human nature...

[Cassidy1]

126. Maybe so about human nature

But you can control guns.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

132. Like alcohol and drugs?

[Cassidy1]

135. Two different things

[Nuclear Unicorn]

143. How so?

It would help if you provide a rationale for your declaration.

[Cassidy1]

144. You're asking the difference between a gun and a drug?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

165. I know the difference.

One can be used for self-defense, the other is strictly for recreation.

But what I was asking was: Where do you imagine gun control can succeed where Prohibition and the War on Drugs failed?

[Cassidy1]

174. I don't imagine

It would work in the US. Like it's worked in other countries.

[GGJohn]

177. Could it be because in the US, we have a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms?

Think that could have anything to do with it?

[Cassidy1]

182. I misspoke.

I meant to say that I am not imagining. It WOULD WORK in the US because it has worked in other countries. Or maybe it doesn't work here with all the Cliven Bundy nuts thinking they can just point rifles wherever they please.

[GGJohn]

183. Or maybe most Americans agree that the 2A confers an individual right to keep and bear arms.

There are numerous polls that back that up.

Gotta go get some sleep, 0400 comes early on a farm.
Have a good night.

[Cassidy1]

184. Oh so now it's "most Americans."

So if I can get 51% to agree, then I am free to shoot up whatever.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

189. Instead of using your imagination why not compare the US to the US.

This nation is surprisingly resistant to Prohibition regimes.

And you may proclaim other nations have reduced gun violence but that does not translate to reduce violence. In some instances violent crime escalates.

In the UK people are being imprisoned for carrying broken butter knives or using antique firearms to defend themselves from home invaders. Is that what you're prepared to adopt "for the greater good"?

[Cassidy1]

195. So an antique firearm

is different than a firearm that is not antique? If they are defending themselves with an antique gun, then wouldn't that mean the gun is functional?

I never heard of people being arrested with broken butter knives. I'll need a source, please.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

196. If they are defending themselves that is all that matters. People have

a right to defend themselves. No one has an obligation to submit to victimhood.

[Cassidy1]

199. Antique firearms were discussed as if they're different.

Guess there is no difference.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

201. Much of gun control hysteria relies on wild embellishments about "military style assault rifles."

Some even go so far as to try and snark that anyone wanting a gun should have their choices restricted to such arms as were available at the time the 2nd Amendment was written (though they obviously exempt their 1st Amendment rights).

Yet, even when someone does defend themselves with an antique weapon the controllers still demand prosecution of the innocent. I do not understand the controller mania that demands people be raped, robbed and murdered with a right to self defense.

[Cassidy1]

207. What is controller mania?

We live in a society. People need to be and feel safe from those walking around with bravado. If it takes more laws to infinity to stop the violence and ensure safety, then so be it.

[GGJohn]

210. Except it isn't those of us legally owning and carrying that are the problem,

it's those that willfully ignore laws, you know, criminals, and criminals don't, you know, obey laws.

[Cassidy1]

212. You and the NRA are the problem.

In the grander scheme of things.

[GGJohn]

213. Naw, we're not,

it's those like you that refuse to blame the real culprits, you know, criminals.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

216. "People need to be and feel safe from those walking around with bravado."

"feel"? You're describing a phobia, not a legitimate concern that can be rationally addressed. I'm not obligated to live my life according to the phobias of others and they have no right to infringe upon my rights.

[Cassidy1]

246. Phobia!?

Nice try at hyperbole. Talking about simple safety here.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

249. I stand by my use of the word phobia.

If you think everyone of the hundreds of millions of people owning guns is a potential rampage killer then you are possessed of an irrational fear. The fact is the majority of those who commit unjustified killings are career criminals, to the tune of 60% to 70%. People carrying for protection are not the problem. Fear of them has no rational basis in observed fact.

[Cassidy1]

250. Source?

for the 60-70% figure?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

255. Source --

However, according to the DOJ's 1998 Felony Defendants in Large Urban Counties report, 58% of all murderers had at least one felony conviction, 70% had other convictions, and 81% had arrest records.

http://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-gun-homicides-in-the-US-are-committed-by-legally-owned-firearms

[Cassidy1]

258. I don't see

where this makes them career criminals. Anybody can go apeshit at any time.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

260. Supposition without basis in evidence.

[Cassidy1]

264. People turn on a dime all the time

[Nuclear Unicorn]

266. Sounds like a good reason to be prepared.

Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself among those that could suddenly snap and become a homicidal maniac?

[Ghost in the Machine]

155. "But you can control guns." Yes, MANY of us Liberals can control our guns... quite accurately too!

We also don't leave loaded weapons laying around to where children can get to them and harm themselves or others, we support background checks and don't want guns in the hands of criminals.

How's that for starters??

Peace,

Ghost

[Cassidy1]

211. yes a narrow margin

The court is probably even influenced by the NRA

[GGJohn]

215. ....

The court is probably even influenced by the NRA

Pure fucking comedy gold!!!

[Cassidy1]

245. They're not?

Who appoints judges?

[Cassidy1]

61. They are wrong

They are conservative ideologues.

[aikoaiko]

36. Good luck with that.

That horse is way out of the barn.

[Cassidy1]

62. It just takes a little political will to round up the horses.

[aikoaiko]

67. In 2013 the biggest gun control effort I've ever seen failed famously

It's going to take a lot more than a little political will.

[Cassidy1]

77. After a big tragedy

What does it take?

[aikoaiko]

91. I think massive restrictions on gun ownership is a lost cause.

[Cassidy1]

103. piecemeal?

[busterbrown]

98. And if that for some miracle happened?

That would be a bad thing?

[hack89]

99. It would make no difference

because you would then have to pass laws. The 2A is not slowing down gun control - even Scalia says it allows strict regulations. Draconian gun control simply does not have broad popular support in America.

[Logical]

19. Please name Democratic congress members who will support your stance! Nt

[Cassidy1]

21. A lot of them do.

[Codeine]

33. So it should be easy to name them.

Name "a lot" of members of Congress who believe in the total and complete banning of civilian forearms.

[Cassidy1]

46. A lot of them

They won't say it in public, but you know who they are. The NRA has undue influenced and should be curtailed.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

222. One of the reasons Controllers are not trusted is because they have no respect for ANY rights.

Self-defense, speech, dissent -- all rights are subject to being discarded by Controllers.

[Logical]

50. Bullshit, name 5! nt

[Cassidy1]

58. Menendez, Esty, Schumer, Boxer, Feinstein

[Logical]

93. Your claim is they would be willing to ban all guns? Really? nt

[Cassidy1]

102. possibly

BTW, what does this nt mean?

[Duckhunter935]

109. No text

under the header, saves you from looking.

They are not against all weapon ownership and Diane had a permit and carried. I guess the little people do not matter so much, right.

[Cassidy1]

127. "No text"

Thanks.

[avebury]

31. I am personally anti guns but even I disagree

with your post. We live in a country with an out of control, militarized police that pretty much does what it wants with pretty much no consequence. As much as I dislike guns, I would be extremely concerned about a country where only the cops have guns.

[Cassidy1]

59. I guess what happened in Waco is okay with you?

[avebury]

70. No but I figure it was Darwin in action in cleaning out

the gene pool. It sounds like it was pretty certain that something bad was going to do down at that Restaurant in Waco and if others were not smart enough to vacate the area immediately I would say they lacked common sense.

What is interesting is how authorities treated the bikers. If the bikers had all been black, the police would have handled it very differently too.

I don't own a gun nor do I feel a need to own one. I think that, far too often, society fails to hold gun owners accountable for incidents that occur due to their negligence (for example, leaving a loaded gun where a child can get a hold of it). There are no mass shootings big enough or often enough to result in any common sense change in gun laws. All that said, given the direction of a militarized police force and out of control cops operating without consequence, I would be extremely concerned of a population without the means to defend itself if required. Politicians keep harping about what a threat Iran, Isis, ______ (fill in the blank with latest terrorist group faction), etc. are to the US but a lot of Americans probably find the police a greater threat to public safety.

[Matrosov]

85. Now watch all the RW trolls come crawling out of the wood work

They just can't help themselves when someone on DU suggests to ban their toys

[GGJohn]

121. So, you believe that only the police should have guns?

The same police that continually gun down innocent citizens? The same police that are rarely held to answer for their criminal actions? The same police that have the "Us vs. Them" mentality?
Are you for real? Or are you just playing with us?

[truebluegreen]

17. A Polite Society!

yea!

[Cassidy1]

63. yes indeed

[Logical]

18. If someone wants to kill someone with a gun, nothings going to stop them. Nt

[Cassidy1]

22. Except if they can't get one

from a store, a manufacturer, or anywhere else.

[Logical]

51. You sort of have been asleep the last 10 years i assume. nt

[Cassidy1]

56. No I've been awake

Why would you say that?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

52. Humanity...

...has been demonstrating for a few hundred years that they can get just about anything.

Increasing attempts at control usually only increase the black market prices. See the history of drugs, alcohol, etc.

[Cassidy1]

57. So are you saying that someone can just pick up a rocket launcher at the store?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

82. Let's just say that you need to know where to shop.

[Cassidy1]

106. hmmmmmmmmmmmm

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

119. Criminals...

They have this basic problem of breaking the law. To get to the root of the matter, the most effective course to improve the overall firearm situation in the US is to get universal background checks passed. With about 1 in 3 people being gun owners and less than 1 in 3,000 people engaging in firearm violence, it's logical to infer that most gun owners follow the law. UBCs would empower the lawful to help keep guns out of the wrong hands.

[Cassidy1]

124. but not all follow the law

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

128. What's your point?

As I said that's what criminals do. They break the law.
If you want to continue to make laws which criminalize those not doing evil rather than empower them to remain righteous, you treat everyone with suspicion. Such treatment inspires contempt and suppresses cooperation.

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

[Cassidy1]

137. How am I treating everyone with suspicion?

There are certain thresholds you observe in a civilized society. The people who are up to no good have to hide. Criminals hide. The law abiding are in the open. It's really true that if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

141. Nothing to fear from what?

My responses in this exchange have been about what can and cannot be accomplished to improve the situation. I also explained a few of the facts. You said, "Except if they can't get one from a store, a manufacturer, or anywhere else," That was something that can't really be accomplished.

When you say, "It's really true that if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear." I ask, "Nothing to fear from what? What is it you propose as answer?" I ask because you haven't suggested anything that might realistically be accomplished.

"Nobody should have guns except the police. No exceptions."

A substantial majority of the population disagrees and this is neither possible nor wise. "When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Today, we have numerous police departments that have become over militarized. Police have had glocks, remington 870s and ARs for years. The increase in prevalence of armored vehicles, crew served weapons and spec-ops explosives are doing more bad than good in the fight against crime.

[Cassidy1]

146. If you have nothing to hide,

then you have nothing to fear from law enforcement. If you're nothing breaking the law, then why would you have an issue with law enforcement? They are there to protect the law abiding. Why, in fact, would have to fear anyone if you're not doing anything wrong?

[GGJohn]

147. OMFG!!!!

Did you just say this?

I

f you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear from law enforcement. If you're nothing breaking the law, then why would you have an issue with law enforcement? They are there to protect the law abiding. Why, in fact, would have to fear anyone if you're not doing anything wrong?

Why don't you ask Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, Michael Brown, etc that?
Oh, wait, you can't because they're DEAD at the hands of cops for doing nothing.

[Cassidy1]

150. You're talking about racism

I'm talking about the freedom to go outside your home and feeling safe. I'm talking about being law abiding. You are talking about racist, bad apple cops, who had no business being on the force because they are quite simply hateful racists. Garner, Rice, and Brown are dead because they had the misfortune to encounter hateful racists.

[GGJohn]

151. Words escape me.

You said that....oh never mind.

[Cassidy1]

154. Words escape you because you know I am right.

[GGJohn]

157. LOL.

Yeah, you just keep believing that.

[Cassidy1]

169. If not my "belief."

It's a fact.

[GGJohn]

171. Uh huh.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

158. Define "racist" please.

I'll go first.
Racist: a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

A reasonable bit logic tells me that an individual racist would believe that he is superior to another individual perhaps only because of skin color. You suggest it's reasonable to trust someone, to believe that they are superior to the average person based on them wearing a uniform and having a badge. My irony meter has smoke blowing out its ears.

Are you serious? Law abiding? For real? Jesus Huerta was 17 and you think law enforcement deserves blanket trust not just to be given a gun but to given a gun where ONLY law enforcement has them.

How many "bad apple cops" did it take suffocate Eric Garner? How did they all just happen to be at the same place at the same time? Maybe the NYPD assigns all the racists in squads together.

One more question: what's the weather like on your planet? It's obvious you don't live on this one.
Make a concession here. Explain how your opinions don't disrespect dozens of folks that died in police custody.

[Cassidy1]

176. The victims in these cases are always black.

That's the X factor that tells me these cops are racist.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

190. Very true

Cops are racist. But is it the racism the whole cause of these events? I suggest that these cops have anger issues and are likely on some power high to begin with. The results are applied racially since it's simplest to define a target for aggression by visual means.

Racist, sure!
But I don't think anyone would be approving of their actions if they abused and murdered all races equally.

[oneshooter]

191. In Baltimore four of the six cops indited are black.

Black on Black crime?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

156. You could ask...

...Freddie Gray, Michael Brown, Daniel Wichterman, Joseph Pierce, Phillip White, Kelly Thomas, Jorge Azucena and Jesus Huerta. Oh wait; you can't.

How about answering some of my questions:

~ My responses in this exchange have been about what can and cannot be accomplished to improve the situation. I also explained a few of the facts. You said, "Except if they can't get one from a store, a manufacturer, or anywhere else," That was something that can't really be accomplished.

Any thoughts on that? How would you stop the entire country from ever getting a gun?

~ https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police-practices/police-militarization
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarization_of_police
Maybe this type of policing is excessive and outside what should be tolerated. What motivates these acquisitions and who approves these purchases?

The President thinks these types of weapons aren't appropriate for police work:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-alan-grayson/police-militarization-executive-order_b_7341266.html
Yet, police have lots of this stuff. Why? You think police should be trusted with guns but police demonstrate that guns aren't enough. They kill folks who've been subdued, arrested and taken into custody all the time. Is all of that just an accident?

By all means please blindly trust the police, right?

[Cassidy1]

178. I did not see where you made suggestions about improving the situation.

Victim is always black. That's the X factor. That points to racist cops.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

239. Yet you want civilians to be disarmed and the cops to possess a monopoly on weapons.

How does this make sense?

[Cassidy1]

247. Cops are civilians

[Nuclear Unicorn]

248. Yeah. Sure.

The System only protects one thing -- itself. And it does not consider itself part of the people. It sees the people only as a commodity to be managed for its own benefit.

[Cassidy1]

254. Not sure I follow you.

I was just defining terms.

[Marengo]

160. That being the case, I don't suppose you would have an issue...

with allowing law enforcement access to all of your personal information in all of it's forms?

[Cassidy1]

180. All?

Now you're playing strawman.

[Marengo]

186. Why not? If you've done nothing wrong...

Why the hesitation?

[Cassidy1]

251. I have no hesitation

Perhaps you should give examples. I have no problem with what happened in the Boston Marathon, with police officers searching houses for the killer. I have no problem with roadblocks because they can catch criminals. No, I have nothing to hide, so I'm not hesitating.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

238. So after showing contempt for the 1st & 2nd Amendments you now add the 4th & 5th.

[Cassidy1]

252. Where do i have contempt for the first?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

256. In Post #105 you stated about pro-gun Dems, "some of them are even traiterous."

Having a different policy position doesn't make one a traitor. Likening policy debates to a criminal offense displays a shocking lack of respect for the right to freely speak.

[Cassidy1]

259. What

does that have to do with the first?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

261. You're attempting to cast political speech as being traitorous. That's the entire reason why

the 1st Amendment exists.

[Cassidy1]

263. Lighten up

I'm not talking about "traitorous" as a hanging offense.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

265. You wrote what you wrote, without any suggestion that you were speaking metaphorically.

It's not my job to decipher hidden meanings.

Regardless, the Controllers are notorious for their willingness to trample other rights they feel are too inconvenient and you shown yourself no different.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

261. You're attempting to cast political speech as being traitorous. That's the entire reason why

the 1st Amendment exists.

[GGJohn]

130. No shit!!

And the lesson today is, criminals do bad things.

[jonno99]

54. I guess I'm confused. Is it guns you don't like, people being killed by guns or...?

Because even without guns, folks killing each other is not going to go away. If you read this story, these gang members were using baseball bats, chains, knives - not just guns.

If you could wave a magic wand an make guns disappear, humans would simply create high-capacity home-made cross-bows (Of course if you could wave your wand, you may as well just make folks not want to kill each other).

The problem is not the guns. When I was a kid we had a gun-range in the basement of my school - and no one even thought twice about it. Gun safety used to be a normal, regular part of growing up - especially if you were in the scouts.

So what has changed? It's not the guns - it's society...

[Cassidy1]

64. I can only point to England.

I don't see people hitting one another over the head with ball bats.

[jonno99]

94. I have to agree since baseball is more of an American sport.

Assault by knives though? It appears to be a problem...
http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/11/british-police-calling-for-knife-ban/

[Cassidy1]

101. Baseball?

huh?

[jonno99]

118. I stand corrected. Apparently American style baseball is played

In the UK (I assumed the only baseball they played was Cricket).

Too, it appears that folks there actually are - as you put it - "hitting one another over the head" with bats:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/08/why_are_they_using_baseball_bats_instead_of_cricket_bats_in_the_uk_riots.html

[Marengo]

167. No comment on the linked article?

[Cassidy1]

170. I did.

[Marengo]

188. A response to the article linked it post # 94?

[Cassidy1]

192. I did not see an article.

[HoustonDave]

96. Crime stats

According to the most recent FBI Uniformed Crime stats, actually people are - and in greater numbers than using rifles of any variety. Murder by blunt objects like bats, hammers etc. outnumber rifle murders.

[Cassidy1]

100. link"

source?

[Duckhunter935]

111. From the FBI

Quick search that took 10 seconds.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-20/table_20_murder_by_state_types_of_weapons_2013.xls

[GGJohn]

161. Hmmmm, I notice he shut up when you posted that link.

[Duckhunter935]

162. That seems to happen

A nice thank you would be the polite thing to say but I have found most anti-gunners are not the most polite people.

[GGJohn]

163. Yep, and we're the ones accused of being extremists, crazy, etc.

[Duckhunter935]

164. I try and be polite to all

Sometimes I fail but at least I try.

[Cassidy1]

205. What do you mean I shut up?

I am still here.

What's your point again?

[GGJohn]

208. Only took you a week to respond,

so, what do you say to the link Duckhunter provided?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

219. There used to be another anti-RKBA poster here who would take days at a time to reply.

I can't seem to remember his username but I haven't seen him in a while and I can't help but notice this new guy is, well, new.

[GGJohn]

220. He sounds like a certain person on a time out who was accusing us of condoning murder.

Just sayin.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

224. No, definitely not who I'm thinking of. He'd reply fairly quickly. This one is unique.

[GGJohn]

226. You're probably right. eom.

[Cassidy1]

204. How about handguns?

[Duckhunter935]

110. just like drugs

how is that total ban working out?

[Cassidy1]

125. I would not compare drugs to guns that way.

[GGJohn]

131. Of course you wouldn't.

[Duckhunter935]

133. Welcome back!

[GGJohn]

134. Thanks!!!

Good to be back.

[Cassidy1]

136. ?????

They are different.

[GGJohn]

139. No, they're not.

You're calling for a total ban on firearms for civilians, much like the drug warriors called for in the 70's, how well did the WOD work out?
The same would happen with firearms, where there's a market for an illicit item, it will be filled, as evidenced by the ban on drugs.

[Cassidy1]

140. Guns hurt other people.

Drugs don't hurt anyone except the person using it. I don't see anyone robbing a store with rolling papers. I don't see people killing others by hitting them over the head with a bong.

[GGJohn]

142. Drugs don't hurt other people?

Are you really that naïve?
How many people are killed over turf? How many have been robbed, hurt, killed so the junkie can get their next fix, high?
Open your eyes FFS.

[Cassidy1]

145. And they are killed with guns

[GGJohn]

148. Drugs kill too, so do cars, so do knives, so does anthrax.

Get my drift?

[Cassidy1]

149. No I don't get your drift.

You're comparing a gun to a car? A car is meant to get from point A to point B. Guns are meant to kill.

[GGJohn]

152. Fucking wrong.....again.

A gun is meant to propel a projectile down a hollow tube to a target, what it hits is up to who is using it.

What difference does it make what it's designed to do? A car, knife, baseball bat, etc, is just as lethal as a firearm if used in an irresponsible way.
Or are people more dead if they're killed with a gun than the above objects?

[Cassidy1]

153. The only target for a ballbat is a baseball

A car is meant to be driven. A knife is for slicing meat, surgery, etc. Guns are meant to destroy.

Just look at the purpose in invention. Henry Ford did not invent the car to run people over. The baseball bat was not refined by Louisville Slugger to bash people over the head.

[GGJohn]

159. So fucking what?

Are you less injured/dead because it was something other than a gun used in a negligent/criminal manner?

Regardless, we have right in this country to own firearms and, despite your fantasies, it will remain a right, matter of fact, gun rights are expanding.
So good luck with your fantasy of British style gun laws.

[Cassidy1]

179. I don't see where gun rights are expanding.

You either have a right or you don't.

[GGJohn]

181. Well, let's see,

all 50 states now have some form of CCW, DC was just slapped down for trying to deny lawful citizens from CCW, more states are now going to Constitutional Carry, more states are contemplating CC for college campuses, etc.
Need I go on?

[Cassidy1]

185. You also say that gay rights are a right.

Not to get off track, but that's not in the constitution. I'm just wondering what defines a right for you.

[busterbrown]

203. It is fucking amazing how these gun idiots...

repeatedly use the constitution as the basis of their entire argument... The 2nd..

Well when the constitution was written there wasn’t an entire segment of the population masturbating to the concept of hard metal destroying life and making users feel so potent..

ITS A FUCKING DIFFERENT TIME.. Your 2nd Amendment Shit doesn’t work anymore//

[Cassidy1]

206. Exactly

Furthermore, you actually have Democrats right here doing the jacking off. Then pretending like they are mainstream.

[GGJohn]

218. Your comment is disgusting. eom.

Last edited Sat Jun 6, 2015, 11:33 PM - Edit history (1)

[Electric Monk]

230. I find yours (notice there's no apostrophe?) to be far worse, siding with guns, because guns.

http://www.writingforward.com/grammar/homophones/homophones-theyre-there-and-their

[GGJohn]

231. Ahh, the hypocrisy drips from your words. eom.

[Electric Monk]

233. Please, do elaborate, and be specific. Remember, 1 more hide and you're in timeout again.

(Notice the correct use of the apostrophe? That's where it belongs, not how you used it.)

[GGJohn]

235. Oh, you damn well know what I'm talking about and don't expect me

to give you, again, the opportunity to put me in a time out, and don't bother to deny you were responsible....never mind, not worth it.

[GGJohn]

217. LOL.

Pure fucking comedy gold.

My 2A right still works quite well thank you.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

225. Post #71

And "work" is a subjective opinion.

[underahedgerow]

23. Think of it as Darwin in action. So, yeah, a bunch of idiots with guns are killing each other.. Is

the world a better place with or without them? They're victimizing themselves by the choices they made.

Like when the Crips and Bloods were whacking each other non-stop for years. Like the Isis idiots killing each other because of their stupid imaginary gods... This is Darwin's theory operating full steam. The weakest fall while the strong and intelligent stay alive and procreate.

So long as they're killing each other, I've got no problem with it... Keep yourself and the ones you love far away.

Natural migration is an interesting thing. You'll find historically that the more intelligent of a species are the first to leave an area that is descending into danger. Even recently the overwhelming numbers of academics and highly literate fled areas like Russia before the cold war; the Italians that left Italy before its fiscal crisis.

Guns are tools for fools and the people that keep themselves and their families in the line of fire may not necessarily be doing the rest of the world a disservice.

[blue neen]

24. Where should the little children at Sandy Hook have migrated to?

I would imagine that they were all strong and intelligent.

[underahedgerow]

27. Absolutely an anomaly in the whole scheme of things, and nothing less than horrifically

tragic and very, very sad.

What a world, what a world...

[Paladin]

39. Aren't you going to hurl the "emotional" charge, as well?

We've come to expect it from DU's pro-gun cadre, particularly as to Sandy Hook......

[underahedgerow]

40. erm, I'm not pro-gun. I oppose all guns in fact, to the point of disarming the police forces like

many other civilized nations. Heck, I would dismantle the militaries in my Utopia. But since guns are around and asshats insist on using them to kill each other, at least they've got that going for them. Shame that other humans and animals get in the way though.... the cost of being human and having no other natural predators I suppose.

Glass half full and all that.

[Cassidy1]

66. amen

[Duckhunter935]

113. Well the truth is

that it is in the actual gun control talking points. The PDF was posted over a year ago of that very thing. I am sure you know that.

[GGJohn]

243. Yup, straight from the gun control bible. eom

[NOLALady]

86. It seems to me that the wealthiest

citizens are always the first to migrate. The trust fund babies will be the first to leave this country if/when necessary.

[AgingAmerican]

25. How long before they blame gay marriage?

nt

[Jamastiene]

48. +1000000

[ileus]

30. This is why it's always wise to carry your own personal protection device.

[pintobean]

35. Will you please use a different source?

IBEW local 4 is currently in a labor dispute with that station.

TURN OFF KSDK – Channel 5
The Men and Women of KSDK-TV are currently in a battle with Ch. 5 and its parent company Gannett over who should be allowed to do the work of an engineer, photographer and editor. Under the current agreement, those jobs are protected just like at every other TV station in St. Louis. Gannett and KSDK executives have now told those Men and Women that they will NOT negotiate unless they agree to allow anyone at KSDK to do their job.

Please help protest KSDK-Gannett's economic assault on the St. Louis families that work there. To do this, simply TURN OFF KSDK-TV and make it known that you stand behind these dedicated men and women that call this community their home.

http://www.turnoffksdk.com/

[Glassunion]

41. Are you trying to tell me that, gangs who do illegal things, did illegal things?

They should make it illegal to do illegal things, and all of the illegal stuff will stop happening.

[jonno99]

55. +1000

[Duckhunter935]

114. Great point, crickets will be the response.

[lonestarnot]

42. So did they think they were filming a block of sons of anarchy? WTF. Nutty fuckers.

[Eleanors38]

43. Ah, yes another Gunz hate fest -- in GD

Seems the gun control movement can't get anything started in the two (2) groups alloted it, so the usual hatred in bulk-shipped to GD. Personally, I blame violent thugs.

[Duckhunter935]

115. I give them the big news on this one

but yes, many do try and start (multiple times in fact) and most are locked down. It also just proves how out of touch with reality some are as what they suggest is either wrong or just plain impossible.

[Eleanors38]

120. Some are still trying to hot wire a gunz/biker connection on the radioz but

even folks who could care less about gun policy see this as fretting over a squirrel fart in a hurricane. Someone in these threads suggested there was nothing wrong with culture war over this issue. I guess he/she wants to fight fire with fire with the likes of Nugent and LaPierre. (I was going to suggest Palin, but I can't make any sense out of her gassage).

[wendylaroux]

257. I blame crappy/no education

and slave wage jobs.

[hifiguy]

49. Outlaw bikers are not known for their

dispute-resolution skills.

Fortunately only gang members got killed.

[Vinca]

73. Nothing happens when little kids at school are slaughtered.

The NRA doesn't have to bother trying to explain. The only thing positive about the current massacre is that no innocent bystanders were hit. In this country that's about all you can hope for these days.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

78. They just announced they have to move over 130 bikes away from the scene to a secure facility.

I suggest they thoroughly disassemble each and every one to 'search them for contraband'. Then let the owners reclaim the pile of parts if they don't find anything.

[tammywammy]

89. They're loading up tow trucks.

There are also cars of employees and regular non-biker patrons of the Twin Peaks in the lot still. I hope the innocent by standards don't get charged towing or storage costs for their vehicles.

[Romulox]

79. Textbook definition of "thugs".

[uponit7771]

92. +1

[Duckhunter935]

116. yep nt

[True Blue Door]

97. It could have been avoided if everyone were armed with bazookas.

Damn librul anti-bazooka laws make the streets unsafe for law-abiding bazooka owners.

[PowerToThePeople]

200. Ban all Guns!!! n/t

[GoneFishin]

236. Obviously, more guns would have prevented this shit.

[GGJohn]

237. How would it have prevented this "shit"?

[GoneFishin]

240. Here:

Did not think I needed that.

[GGJohn]

242. Sorry, missed that.

Sometimes, I can be deficit.

[GoneFishin]

244. My bad. I need to use it a bit more liberally.