General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums(HRC) is as liberal as Elizabeth Warren and barely more moderate than Bernie Sanders.
A bunch of reporters have recently discovered a shocking truth: Hillary Clinton is liberal! (I heard a rumor that Columbo has been helping with the investigation.)
Weve gotten this raft of Clinton is liberal exposés as Clinton has revved up her 2016 campaign, speaking out in support of gay marriage, a pathway to citizenship for immigrants in the U.S. illegally, and criminal justice reform. But what many of these articles miss is that Clinton has always been, by most measures, pretty far to the left. When shes shifted positions, it has been in concert with the entire Democratic Party.
...
Clinton also has a history of very liberal public statements. Clinton rates as a hard core liberal per the OnTheIssues.org scale. She is as liberal as Elizabeth Warren and barely more moderate than Bernie Sanders. And while Obama is also a hard core liberal, Clinton again was rated as more liberal than Obama.
...
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/hillary-clinton-was-liberal-hillary-clinton-is-liberal/
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)best laugh of the day
tech3149
(4,452 posts)I think those "while Obama is also a 'hard core liberal'" types might need to live a few days in my reality.
It ain't so warm and fuzzy when your holding the shitty end of the stick.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)Everything is relative... If you compared the Jets to the Harvard Crimson football team they would look like a juggernaut but if you compared them to the Seattle Seahawks or just about any other professional football team they would look pretty much like a joke.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)historically seen politically.
A liberal in Northern Europe would favor free higher education paid for by taxation on the rich and corps, and nationalizing of some essentials.
Universal healthcare, guaranteed standard of living, etc.
I will support Hillary if and when Bernie is out of the picture, but I believe there is plenty of room for improvement and almost all of it has to do with Wall STreet and banksters.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)That disqualifies her as President to me.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)But that's like saying Stalin is more "liberal" than Hitler. I'm just not going to support the "lesser of two evils", when there's so much I disagree with.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)"...more liberal than any OTHER Republican running."
Love it!
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)And thanks for telling it!
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Now that Bernie is running , her centrism is even more evident.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)cap on SS. She voted for the IWR. She voted for god-awful bankruptcy bill. She won't discuss raising taxes on the wealthiest and in 2008 she rejected it out of hand (maybe she's evolved again) In 2008 she was against drivers licenses for undocumented immigrants and supported deportation- including kids. She didn't support full marriage equality until about 2 minutes ago. Gung ho on military intervention in Libya. Advocated for it in Syria.
Puleez.
Facts are stubborn things.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Killed millions, and lets not even discuss his stance on minorities and marriage equality.
cali
(114,904 posts)It just demonstrates a lack of knowledge about history and historiography.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)The least we could do is not be hypocrites about the process.
cali
(114,904 posts)(something I learned at my pappy's knee) Look, you can't take something out of its historical context and try to paste it on to another period in history. This is pretty basic stuff. Arguably you can discuss the interment of Japanese Americans in conjunction with today's world (some historians argue that you can't, but I disagree with them) but you can't throw marriage equality into it, as that wasn't a concept that was in the political dialog at all 75 years ago. And the millions killed in WWII? That's just flat out silly.
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)But let's be real. No one passes the liberal puretopian test. At least not for long. Obama was a demigod to this same crowd, and in the blink of an eye he was then the devil.
This is why politicians ignore the extremists. That's the exact reason. They really can't be made happy.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)(and dare I say criminal in permitting the internment camps.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Obama is way more progressive on nearly every issue but today's progressives still not happy.
cali
(114,904 posts)I doubt you could find a single Presidential historian who would claim that. 2008-2016 is not 1933--1945. Saying President Obama is for marriage equality and FDR wasn't, is pure bunk.\
The New Deal was revolutionary in a way that nothing President Obama has advocated and achieved, is. And I applaud him for the ACA, but it's not New Deal.
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)Then your supporting a country that brutalized african americans, committed genocide on Native Americans, and has supported dictator after dictator, that brutalized their own people, in countries around the world throughout at least the past 115 years. Obama himself is supporting the Honduras Government that has allowed gangs to control the streets and has allowed it to become the murder capital of the world. Not to mention the drone war that has killed many innocents and has fanned the flames of terrorism in the middle east.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Even as you also complain she wont take a stand on it. LOL!
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Best laugh I've had today...
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)This is bull crap of course.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,121 posts)I like to think we have decent candidates this cycle.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Bugs Bunny, it is to laugh.
bluesbassman
(19,360 posts)Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means".
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And in most of the Americas as well. The political conversation in this country varies from center right to far right. More accurately from center right to fascism.
ANYONE who is in favor of the TPP, or NAFTA, or GATT, or any of the so-called trade agreements that have devastated US manufacturing and lowered US wages cannot by any stretch be called a liberal.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)not to mention the misinformation.
<snip>
There have been a few issues on which Hillary Clinton has taken more centrist positions. She, of course, voted for the Iraq War (she now says that was a mistake). Clinton has been mostly pro free trade (although she hasnt said much of anything on the Trans-Pacific Partnership). And she has been against marijuana legalization, and seemingly
remains so.
<snip>
She is pro TPP. She makes that crystal clear in her book.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)state department book. She highly touts the tpp. so the wait and see stuff just isn't honest. it's blatant political maneuvering.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Exilednight
(9,359 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)Why is this considered a good thing? If anything, it makes it seem as though she has no positions of her own, and adopts the "official" positions only when she's told to adopt them.
That's a strike against her, IMO.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Autumn
(44,980 posts)GoneOffShore
(17,336 posts)Enjoy your stay and do try the pizza.
Dem2
(8,166 posts)I like onions and peppers on mine...
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)It's people who talk the most shit on the net who are the most pusillanimous in real life...
Dem2
(8,166 posts)OK, that's a new one to me, thank you Google for right-click "search for..."
Also, can you order some home-made sausage on my pizza too? (yes, I am being facetious)
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)You have several entries that can be construed as pro-Sanders.
Dem2
(8,166 posts)I like Bernie - he has my heart, I like Hillary, she has my brain. I like our candidates.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)Maybe we will have that pizza on election eve when we have something to celebrate.
You do know what the pizza reference was, don't you?
Dem2
(8,166 posts)I may be new, but I'm not naive
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,121 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,020 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Ze plain! Ze plain!
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)so I would understand references like that.
Fortunately, those moments pass quickly.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)It's the party that is moderate, but has been increasingly shifting more to the left.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Everyday I can get near a computer. Just to offset the screeds. I think others should as well. Love this thread right here!
And when it is all said and done, I will vote for the Democratic nominee.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Autumn
(44,980 posts)not being near a computer.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)of this site to do so.
Dem2
(8,166 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)TDale313
(7,820 posts)Only from the same scale that has people actually believing Obama's a socialist.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)LOL!
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)are Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)Hillary is calling out TO Wall St.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/11/why-wall-street-loves-hillary-112782.html#ixzz3acwy4MjN
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Or you can listen to what the candidate says:
"Speaking with small business owners in Cedar Falls, Iowa, the Democratic presidential frontrunner on Tuesday offered a full-throated defense of a law that's served as a thorn in the side of big banks: Dodd-Frank.
"It's not the big banks that need relief from Washington -- it's small banks and small businesses," Clinton said. "We should be doing more to rein in risky behavior on Wall Street and 'Too Big to Fail.'"
The former secretary of state also scolded what she said were attempts by congressional Republicans to roll back consumer protection provisions and regulations aimed at big banks in Dodd-Frank, calling them "a cynical attempt to game the system for those at the top."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/19/politics/hillary-clinton-big-banks/
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)You forgot to add that.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)got theirs)...and I wasn't blaming her, at least on this. She says she wants to "reign in risky behavior of the big banks" who pay her those 6 figure speaking gigs. You don't get $30 million in a few months working with or for small business. Disingenuous.
And I don't believe what she says when it is a sudden conversion based on what Bernie is saying. She's not about to break up the big banks, which is the only way to do what she says she wants to do. That "small business plan" could be written by any staffer with a college degree.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)voted for the hideous Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2001.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)are things we WANT done.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)WIN.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)Hell, yes, I know she was poor once, and not so long ago at that. $10 mil in the hole when they left the White House.
Autumn
(44,980 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)I love a good laugh! Tell us another whopper.
tiredtoo
(2,949 posts)on economic issues she is far too right for me.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)tiredtoo
(2,949 posts)Just a couple of items of concern along with her being banked by Wall Street.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)So, try again.
tiredtoo
(2,949 posts)Only word i heard on TPP is wait and see.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)tiredtoo
(2,949 posts)cascadiance
(19,537 posts)THIS is a liberal stance on "guest worker" (indentured servant labor) programs like H1B and H2B...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/25/this-is-a-massive-effort-to-attract-cheap-labor-why-sen-bernie-sanders-is-skeptical-of-guest-workers/
The bottom line is that I feel, very much, that a lot of the initiative behind these guest workers programs, a very large expansion of guest worker programs H2B visas would go up to as many as 195,000, H1B to as many as 205,000 a year is coming from large corporations who want cheap labor from abroad. Absolutely, there is a need for foreign labor. I recognize that in agriculture and certain areas in the high tech industry, you need foreign labor. But this is a massive effort to attract cheap labor, a great disservice to American workers.
...
More data in this DU post...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026630065
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)... was their puretopian god turned against him the second he had to actually govern. See? Some things are not new at all.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)It is fascinating...and sometimes appalling. I was there just yesterday, looking at their analysis of the candidates in 2012. The money quote regarding Obama:
Taking office during the financial meltdown, Obama appointed its principle architects to top economic positions. We list these because many of Obama's detractors absurdly portray him as either a radical liberal or a socialist, while his apologists, equally absurdly, continue to view him as a well-intentioned progressive, tragically thwarted by overwhelming pressures....Between 1998 and the last election, Obama amassed $37.6million from the financial services industry, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. While 2008 presidential candidate Obama appeared to champion universal health care, his first choice for Secretary of Health was a man who had spent years lobbying on behalf of the pharmaceutical industry against that very concept. Hey! You don't promise a successful pub, and then appoint the Salvation Army to run it. This time around, the honey-tongued President makes populist references to economic justice, while simultaneously appointing as his new Chief of Staff a former Citigroup executive concerned with hedge funds that bet on the housing market to collapse. Obama poses something of a challenge to The Political Compass, because he's a man of so few fixed principles.
My bold.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)as Sen Warren on social issues, she differs greatly on economic, foreign policy, MIC, and Security State issues.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)And so is Obama. Maximum impact with minimal blood and treasure spilled.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)tomorrow. I think the innocent to SUSPECTED terrorists ratio is 10 to 1. Some are children but I guess that can be rationalized away. In any case it aint liberal.
He is brilliant on FP. And so is she. She was easily the best SoS in the last 30-40 years. Hands down.
Our FP is a mess and she was part of it.
Sorry.
Killing people with drones just seems un American.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)a liberal, they ignore her hawkish foreign policy. The Neocons love her Foreign Policy.
A
Its easy to imagine Mrs. Clintons making room for the neocons in her administration. No one could charge her with being weak on national security with the likes of Robert Kagan on board.
from: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/opinion/sunday/are-neocons-getting-ready-to-ally-with-hillary-clinton.html?_r=0
You may like her hawkish, neocon-like foreign policy, but the point is that she can't be considered a progressive or populist. Her stands parallel The Third Way. Ok on social issues but very conservative on other issues, like the economy, foreign policy, and the NSA/CIA Security State.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)experience you are wrong.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)My point is that the new posters are not mostly Hillary posters like you claimed.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)and now she wants us to believe she is one?
No Sale
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)The DLC was dissolved 4 years ago.
They became Obama's cabinet
do you care to address their disdain for liberals?
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)SMH.
I knew you wouldn't address that.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,739 posts)onehandle
(51,122 posts)Fox News tells me not to trust that witchcraft.
BreakfastClub
(765 posts)liberal than Obama. People have been brainwashed by the right-wing media.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)the NSA/CIA, etc. It didn't take the Right Wing to point our that she helped George Bush spread the lies of WMD in Iraq. Not very liberal.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)otherwise? She is a corporatist (Goldman-Sachs) and she likes invading Iraq.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Links like that?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)If Fox News said that HRC supported fracking would it be not true? Howz about the TPP?
I don't go to those sites and have seen lots of evidence that HRC favors Goldman-Sachs over the 99%. Show me otherwise.
I have seen evidence that HRC supports fracking. Do you have any evidence otherwise? How about her support for the TPP?
And it's easy to find evidence that she betrayed the Democratic Party and joined the Republicons to sell the lies about WMD in Iraq.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)For instance you should know very well that gas is cleaner than coal. And she is talking about fracking in other countries to reduce reliance on oil. And more importantly to break Russia's leverage on smaller countries for need of Russian oil. That Russian grip has very real negative consequences for very real people.
She is also very clear that those countries should regulate gas production to include environmental controls.
She is right about all of that. Spot on in fact. But Deadbart is not going to tell you any of that. That's the problem with using right wing sites as your source.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)make more profits. The same oil companies that will help her campaign reach $2 billion dollars.
"She is also very clear that those countries should regulate gas production to include environmental controls. " This is rhetoric. She says this but will do nothing to ensure it happens.
What do your sources say that her stand is today on fracking in the USofA?
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Do you walk everywhere you go? If not, you are helping to "destroy" our climate.
Let's live in reality land. Gas is cleaner than coal and oil. Her position is no different than Obama. Gas is a better alternative as we work to transition to more renewable energy tech.
But her "support" of fracking is not about this country. It's about countries that are involuntarily being screwed by Russia due to their dependence on Russian oil.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)dump their toxic wastes (that would cost them a bundle to get rid of) into our aquifers. As our water supplies get poisoned, Leslie's and Coke can sell us water. Plus fracking is causing hundreds of earthquakes in Oklahoma, for example. But the oil companies will donate big to HRC's campaign and foundation.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)So I assume you use as much oil and gas as anyone else. Will your heat and hot water and lights and car and Internet and computer all magically work without an energy source if we elect Bernie?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)for gas and oil, but we have to stop them from destroying our environment. They are destroying aquifers that will never recover. No problem for PepsiCo, they will gladly supply bottled water to Oklahoma for a nice profit.
There are two sides to this class war and those that push fracking are on the wrong side.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Thanks for posting this again, probably will not change the minds of many but the truth is good for the soul, hopefully it may sink in with some.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)that she has no idea what being a liberal means.
Supporting Gay Marriage is great, but not so good if the people who are getting married can't afford it.
Immigration reform is awesome. Not so good if we are paying wages that match 3rd world countries.
Criminal Justice Reform. Great, she can undo all the horrible shit her husband did.
The only people who think HRC and Obama are hard core liberals are not actually liberals themselves. Conservatives spend a lot of time telling me what "liberals" think, and usually it has nothing to do with what's going on in my liberal mind.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I don't know why this upsets anyone.
Welcome here Dem2.
Number23
(24,544 posts)the "liberal lions" on DU have declared Hillary a neo-corporatist Third Wayingest fascist corpo-Dem meanie in spite of the overwhelming evidence and numerous links in the piece that say the total opposite.
Totally consistent with this New DU. Right on.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Because if memory serves me correctly he was almost dead on but now he must have an agenda, the big meanie.
Number23
(24,544 posts)I don't think you or I need a refresher, but it appears that some folks here have extremely short memories. A little article to jog some memories:
'Mitt Romneys Electoral Problem and the War on Nate Silver'
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2012/10/31/mitt-romneys-electoral-problem-and-the-war-on-nate-silver
But yeah, now he's "lying" and has an agenda! Forget the 57 different sources the author refers to in his OP complete with links to Hillary's voting record and comments. The folks at DU have repeatedly shown that only they know the really real truth! Just look at all those times Obama cut Social Security in complete vindication of the regulars in this forum who screamed he'd do just that!1one!
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)A liberal believes that the people come first, not businesses and especially big business.
840high
(17,196 posts)marmar
(77,053 posts)It seems to be 'toss a meme against the wall and see if it sticks' week.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)And every other Democratic candidate is a right winger. Well, I guess if some website called "political compass" thinks so it must be true.
frylock
(34,825 posts)and those scores weren't based on policy positions, votes, or anything of the sort. How far over into the authoritarian/right quadrant did you score?
bunnies
(15,859 posts)thanks. I needed a good giggle tonight.