Taylor Swift: "Misogyny Is Ingrained in People From the Time They Are Born"

[seabeyond]

According to this year's "Hot 100" list, an annual inventory in which Maxim's editors meticulously rank famous women by level of attractiveness, Taylor Swift is 2015's reigning queen of female hotness. Rather than use the title to gloat about her declared hotness, Swift used the magazine's cover to call out the double standards women face everyday and the importance of feminism in her life today: From Maxim:

Honestly, I didn't have an accurate definition of feminism when I was younger. I didn't quite see all the ways that feminism is vital to growing up in the world we live in. I think that when I used to say, "Oh, feminism's not really on my radar," it was because when I was just seen as a kid, I wasn't as threatening. I didn't see myself being held back until I was a woman. Or the double standards in headlines, the double standards in the way stories are told, the double standards in the way things are perceived.

Swift's interview is especially noteworthy considering in 2012, she shied away from the label to the Daily Beast, telling the news site she didn't view matters as a "guys versus girls" situation. This was also during a time in which the media unfairly portrayed Swift as something of a pathetic boy chaser—a female singer who used her lyrics to lament about the latest boy who got away.

Since then, she has shattered that image with very real, thoughtful insight into an industry built on sexist frameworks:

A man writing about his feelings from a vulnerable place is brave; a woman writing about her feelings from a vulnerable place is oversharing or whining. Misogyny is ingrained in people from the time they are born. So to me, feminism is probably the most important movement that you could embrace, because it's just basically another word for equality.

This is what young girls need today. Now, we leave you with her badass new video, "Bad Blood."

http://www.motherjones.com/mixed-media/2015/05/taylor-swift-feminist

"Bad Blood"

'Cause, baby, now we got bad blood
You know it used to be mad love
So take a look what you've done
'Cause, baby, now we got bad blood
Hey
Now we got problems
And I don't think we can solve them
You made a really deep cut
And, baby, now we got bad blood
Hey

Did you have to do this? I was thinking that you could be trusted
Did you have to ruin what was shiny? Now it's all rusted
Did you have to hit me, where I'm weak? Baby, I couldn't breathe
And rub it in so deep, salt in the wound like you're laughing right at me

Oh, it's so sad to think about the good times, you and I

'Cause, baby, now we got bad blood
You know it used to be mad love
So take a look what you've done
'Cause, baby, now we got bad blood
Hey
Now we got problems
And I don't think we can solve them
You made a really deep cut
And, baby, now we got bad blood
Hey

Did you think we'd be fine? Still got scars on my back from your knife
So don't think it's in the past, these kinda wounds they last and they last.
now did you think it all through? All these things will catch up to you
And time can heal but this won't, so if you're coming my way, just don't

Oh, it's so sad to think about the good times, you and I

'Cause, baby, now we got bad blood
You know it used to be mad love
So take a look what you've done
'Cause, baby, now we got bad blood
Hey
Now we got problems
And I don't think we can solve them
You made a really deep cut
And, baby, now we got bad blood
Hey

Band-aids don't fix bullet holes
You say sorry just for show
If you live like that, you live with ghosts
Band-aids don't fix bullet holes
You say sorry just for show
If you live like that you live with ghosts
If you love like that blood runs cold

'Cause, baby, now we got bad blood
You know it used to be mad love (mad love)
So take a look what you've done
'Cause, baby, now we got bad blood
Hey
Now we got problems
And I don't think we can solve them (think we can solve them)
You made a really deep cut
And, baby, now we got bad blood
(Hey)

'Cause, baby, now we got bad blood
You know it used to be mad love
So take a look what you've done (look what you've done)
'Cause, baby, now we got bad blood
Hey
Now we got problems
And I don't think we can solve them
You made a really deep cut
And, baby, now we got bad blood
Hey

[Goblinmonger]

1. My problem with Swift isn't that she is sharing feelings from a vulnerable place

but does EVERY SINGLE FEELING have to do with a relationship breakup? OK, that's hyperbole, but pretty much all of her successful songs that I am subjected to on the radio have to do with a relationship gone bad. How about you giving me something else. It's not that she's vulnerable; it's that she only have one note (pun intended) that she hits over and over and over and over.

[seabeyond]

3. i heard my 16 yr old son dismiss this singer saying the same whining shit.

do you say the same about ALL the male artists, singing over and over and over again.... fuck her so hard she falls to the ground. bitch, whore, slut, c*!

[Goblinmonger]

36. Do you have a specific artist in mind to discuss?

I don't say the say thing about ALL female artists singing about failed relationships because that isn't true. Neither is what you are saying about ALL male artists. If you were a bit more specific, I'd discuss that artist with you.

[seabeyond]

41. " ALL the male artists" vs "ALL male artists". you play this game, i am done talkin'

[Goblinmonger]

46. Again, I'm just asking you to give me something specific.

If there is a male artist that does that, then, yes, I would agree that them hitting the same note over and over again would be bad. I can't say anything specific until you provide me with a discussion point.

[seabeyond]

47. no. if you start so dishonestly in your conversation, you are not to be taken seriously. that simple

[Goblinmonger]

69. So you don't want to have a conversation about a male artist?

And I clarified the point I was trying to make and let you know I wasn't trying to change your intent.

I don't want to have a conversation about a generic male artist. I will have one about specific artist where I can discuss their body of work.

If you look below, someone offered me some background about the "Bad Blood" song origin and I was fine admitting I didn't know that. I'm more than willing to discuss Taylor Swift. I'm also more than willing to discuss any male artist of your choosing. Just let me know who we're talking about.

In that to this point we are just talking about a generic male artist in which every one of their songs is about fucking bitches, then, yes, I would say the same thing about them as I said about Taylor Swift. I would also indicate that they are far too misogynistic and need some help in that regard. But since that is just a made up artist at this point, I can't say much more.

[seabeyond]

71. no, goblin. i do not want to have a conversation with you. i have said that, 3 x's, now?

[Goblinmonger]

73. But you're still replying to me all over the place?

How about instead of just replying to me with "I don't want to have a conversation" (which, ironically, is having a conversation--especially if you do it 3 times), you provide me with a male artist we can discuss. I think it would be an interesting discussion.

[seabeyond]

62. wonderful changing the conversation to me saying ALL male artist. such easy language manipulation

for SOME men

[Dorian Gray]

217. Ed Sheeren is on his

way. (Naming names.)

I find some of his songs catchy, though. I also find some of T Swizzles's songs catchy.

Both are corny as hell, but my 4 year old enjoys them, and by extension, I guess I do now, too.
(I kind of miss the days -- a little over 4 years ago -- that I was ignorant of pop music!)

[NaturalHigh]

166. You would probably get more conversation...

if you didn't start your OPs looking for a fight.

[romanic]

175. For real.

I've never seen someone so eager to leap at the chance to foam at the mouth. JFC

[seabeyond]

60. "It's not ALL male artists" i did not say that so who should be shuttin' the fuck up?

[cyberswede]

68. The troll has been "shut up."

[seabeyond]

70. ya. but, one made it thru yesterday and i do not get why

went after blacks, women, and black women. gotta a big ole meh...

i am really expecting a administration step up on that very obvious one.

when a troll goes after me. sticks out tongue. and says mirt.... na na na na na....

pretty easy pickin's

lol

i just wanted the comment posted before mirt hit the button

thanks

[cyberswede]

74. I think it's just a matter of time on that one.

It's flagged for review anyway, so can't post.

The funny thing is, the troll gloats that he can get up to 100 posts...like that's some big accomplishment. So what? He has to behave himself all the way up to 100, so who gives a shit?

Sad little fucker.

[seabeyond]

78. ya........ i am pointing right at you. lmFUGGIN'ao. all of what you say. lol

i am not good at seeing that shit. i feel someone sincere in conversation or tells they are not. he had the 'tells' shooting up post after post, thread after thread. lol

i agree.

has to be in my face, to see. otherwise, meh

[arcane1]

116. For some people, "victory" means something completely different.

Getting 100 posts before being banned for masturbatory racist bullshit on a discussion board? Not much of a victory

[Bonobo]

183. I never, EVER hear you use the word "whine" for women.

As a parent of 3 children, I would NEVER describe what my children, male or female say as "whining shit".

[1939]

218. Only if you are listening to hip hop

Country music is either loving or cheating and works both ways.

[malthaussen]

4. Hey, it worked for Joni Mitchell. n/t

[Goblinmonger]

75. Touche

Though--and, again, this may be just personal preference--the musical stylings of Taylor Swift fall FAR short of Joni Mitchell. But good for Swift for making the cash. She (or her managers--I haven't done enough reading about her situation to know if she is the next Madonna or just hired good people around her) knows what she's doing.

[malthaussen]

82. Oh, I like Joni too.

But she did write an awful lot of songs about how hard she was to get along with.

-- Mal

[niyad]

99. speaking of joni, I cannot find any updates on her condition after 28 april.

[malthaussen]

101. Yeah, that story dropped like a rock, didn't it?

I'd be sorry to lose her. But it is sobering to realize she's 71 years old...

-- Mal

[geek tragedy]

126. Graham Nash said last Friday that she'd be out of the hospital soon, has full awareness, seemed

optimistic.

[niyad]

162. that is excellent news. hope it is so.

[malthaussen]

194. "Full awareness," good...

... but can she talk?

-- Mal

[geek tragedy]

195. He didn't say. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. "pretty much all of her successful songs...have to do with a relationship gone bad"

That's called, "country music."

[DawgHouse]

53. I was just thinking about Tammy Wynette!

[treestar]

138. LOL

though this century's version - does have a lot of positive songs too.

[LuvLoogie]

6. This hit's for you.

[seabeyond]

11. why you gotta be so mean. interesting, cause i have a teenage son that

has had this conversation with me for a couple years now. learning this stuff. and what he has taught me.

he brings me todays music. that he thinks i will love. he does a good job. i have asked about swift cause i hear things. but, he says the same about the relationship. which seems to be male whine.

now it is really interesting cause now i ask. is it that she says what men do not want to hear.
this is an excellent song. and you know. it is not putting up with the shit.

more and more women are saying this

men do not like

hence the backlash we see now.

so fuggin' interesting.

thanks for this.

[snooper2]

19. your son might like this music video

I think the thing about writing songs about breakups is because she did it, A LOT

Makes for easy material for Parody writers




I was hired by the CIA-A-A
Just to write a song to play, play, play, play, play
at Guantanamo Bay, Bay, Bay, Bay, Bay, Baby

[seabeyond]

25. "because she did it, A LOT " ya slut. i got that part of the conversation too.

another that i am having to address with a very young man, identifying and defining roles.

she got around.

will listen to the song. and you might not want to be fuckin' with me, lol, in your gigglin' ways. i do not always trust you. meh... so i hit play warily.

[snooper2]

35. I don't know how you got that out of what I wrote, Her songs/material/she did a lot

A lot of her songs were about breakups

[seabeyond]

39. i know you do not know who i got it. yet, it was there. i am that good.

[snooper2]

52. um, okay, I guess...I don't get to make up my own truths

Isn't that a saying...


you can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts-

[Goblinmonger]

79. I don't care how many relationships she had.

Not one bit. Perhaps you read a little too much into people not liking a reoccurring theme in her songs. Kind of why I don't like Bronte novels--just doesn't do it for me. I get and appreciate that they are well written, but not my style. Neither is the Patrick O'Brian Aubrey-Maturin series.

[seabeyond]

80. really, i am going off what i heard from a younger generation.

and also the intended audience.

i am particular what i listen to. i also am not in that i like a wide range.

so, maybe i am, or maybe it is another conversation i am hearing, you are not a part of.

[Goblinmonger]

83. I have a class of mostly seniors who graduate in a couple days

and will be left with a handful of juniors. I will ask them about it. I think there may be a male viewpoint that still sees things that way but I don't know if that is the majority anymore (certainly my sample will shed no light into that being a trend). I would be shocked if HS girls viewed the situation that way.

[seabeyond]

84. they are fed in the same culture. this.... THIS i say respectfully, and beyond interesting.

i know very aware young guys, doing a bang up job and still fighting that perception it is all about male sexuality. women to serve (even though intellectually they know better) and girls getting around, giggle.... walk of shame.

just put it out to the kids. let them all just talk. and listen. get back to me please.

interesting.

thanks for helping me get past the beginning. i do not play the ALL man shit, and stop it immediately. it is used on me often, and has NEVER (ya, i get the ironic), NEVER been, ALL men

[Goblinmonger]

97. I'm pretty good at just letting the talk about things.

They are raised in the same culture but I think there are some different attitudes. And I think a lot of young kids are trying to fight the problems in society (certainly not all).

We're all good. Sorry for my misperception adding to any/all of it.

[seabeyond]

85. .....

male english teacher in high school? AP...

both my boys excel in english.... reading, comprehension and interpretation. they always had excellent relationships with their english teachers and so many of those teachers were discussed at our dinner table.

love you guys....

[Goblinmonger]

98. Yes. Not the AP part, though.

We don't offer the AP classes in English here for a variety of reasons. We do have an honors class for 9-11. I teach the American Lit version to Juniors.

[LuvLoogie]

121. You're welcome, Sea.

It is a great tune. I really like Taylor Swift. Even a majority of the relationship songs. She has earned her success.

[Johonny]

8. I try to give people a chance but Swift doesn't do much for me

Her voice doesn't boom, the instruments don't really do much for me, her songs sound generic, and thus I really can't get into her songs. I'm not sure I have to like an artist to agree with a statement they make, though.

[seabeyond]

12. i am very much into that, and rarely if ever listen to the words.

this last one, at least really works for me in the whole sound and beat of it. and voice.

so, at this point, not knowing the history of her music, i totally disagree.

[Blue_Adept]

13. That's just an interpretation

After all, the big popular song that's hitting now with the video is Bad Blood and it has nothing to do with a romantic relationship in the slightest.

Amused that most are talking about her music rather than her statements though.

[seabeyond]

18. i do not know about amusing. interesting. it is the conversation with 17 yr old son, last couple

years.

more confirmation how i saw my son was processing this and why.

[Blue_Adept]

21. It is amusing

Because it's not talking about the message of what she's saying but rather what she does. Instead of the topic at hand of her thoughts on feminism, it's simple "attacks" on her music that resonates with many.

[seabeyond]

28. which is what we so often do with women. we women say.... "fuck you" and then

it is said we are too harsh and radical.

[Goblinmonger]

40. I have no love for her music, but that's just personal preference.

And are you really trying to say that "Bad Blood" has "nothing to do with a romantic relationship in the slightest"? Did I misread that? Because here is the beginning of the song:

'Cause, baby, now we got bad blood
You know it used to be mad love
So take a look what you've done
'Cause, baby, now we got bad blood
Hey
Now we got problems
And I don't think we can solve them
You made a really deep cut
And, baby, now we got bad blood
Hey

Sounds like it's pretty solidly about a relationship.

[Blue_Adept]

45. Yes, I am

Because the whole song is about her problems with Katy Perry after Perry did some underhanded things to get Swifts concert tour canceled awhile back. She looked up to Perry and what she accomplished and was nearly kneecapped by Perry's actions.

So with that as the background, you can re-interpret the song.

but that's also the beauty of music and literature; it's open to interpretation. But there is also the original intent that has to be weighed as well.

[seabeyond]

48. i think i like some of perry too. are they pitted against each other? cat fight?

geeez. the same old stories we want to create for us women to live. more interesting.

from a feminist point, isnt perry another that as she grows, so does her voice as a woman, from womens eyes?

[Goblinmonger]

66. Fair enough

Next time it comes up, I'll listen to it with that in mind.

As an English teacher, I put a lot more import on the original intent.

[seabeyond]

67. you mutilated my meaning/intent taking out 'the' to create ALL men. you're an english teacher?

[Goblinmonger]

72. I'm not sure what this has to do with this subthread

but, yes, I'm a high school English teacher. And, yes, I misinterpreted your initial post. But my main point still stands which is that I can discuss a specific artist but really can't comment more than I have twice now above as to the generic artists you are speaking of that pretend write all their songs about fucking bitches. And for the record, I never said all of Swift's songs were about relationships. Just the ones that get the play time on the radio. I can't, off the top of my head, think of a male artist that gets air time with all their songs being about fucking bitches. I could be wrong. Let me know who we're talking about and I'll gladly discuss that artist with you.

[malthaussen]

44. Amusing, in a train-wreck sort of way.

Presumably, there are those who are uncomfortable with the message, and so concentrate on the medium. It's not like we haven't been doing that since, well, forever.

-- Mal

[LuvLoogie]

24. A nice collaboration...

[shenmue]

127. Yes, because men never write breakup songs

What utter bullshit.

[Goblinmonger]

170. Where did i said that?

Mad I offered above, if there's a male artist you wish to discuss, let me know who it is. I think the discussion would be interesting.

[IVoteDFL]

134. Taylor Swift is rooted in country

Most country music that I'm subjected to is about a break up.

[malthaussen]

2. Stipulating that indoctrination is a real process...

... and one encouraged in every medium possible, what I find of note here is her admission that she was not aware of her environment, and did not use critical thinking in relation to it. I find those indoctrinations at least as insidious as misogyny: the idea that one should keep one's eyes and mind closed and just drift right along is deeply ingrained in our system. Our nation needs to be hit over the collective head with a two-by-four and told to wake up. On many issues.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

7. heres the thing. just yesterday i was chatting with greek... my experience. at 20, saying, WTF!!!!

i see myself less than man. i see myself in the role of subservient. even in my house of beginning womans voice, i was still raised in a culture that in all ways told me, men are smarter, better, more capable.

that was a huge as WTF!!!!

that is why when i hear YOUNG women, or girls shrug at feminism, i KNOW, it is cause they are not seeing the world thru their eyes, as a woman, but.... what man creates for us to see.

[malthaussen]

10. It is of the nature of epiphanies...

... to suddenly realize that you're now seeing things as they are, not as you're told they are.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

14. yes. which brings us to this song. men telling us to carry a gun and shoot our rapist.

really?

that frat boy, that football player, that boy next door? just... shoot him?

[malthaussen]

16. Hey, my violence trumps your violence!

It's a lot easier to shoot 'em than reform the system, eh? And anyway, we like the system.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

23. i do not hear that story in the song. or the point i am making.

it is much bigger than that. and much more pragmatic. the men might want to check, who is being emotional. and who is being pragmatic in this story.

the world, the men create for us women, are requiring this of us. one way or another.

to simply survive.

that is the story i am hearing

not only this song. but what we women and girls are living. i think this is much bigger. and maybe someone ought to listen

to women

not that that, has ever happened.

at our peril

[malthaussen]

32. Not the song, Sea, the culture that evokes it.

We're all about violence in the USA. We like being about violence in the USA. It's what makes us special.

A point to consider, though: if you do what men are forcing you to do to survive, aren't you still playing the game by their rules?

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

37. no. as a matter of fact, the opposite, hence the backlash. we are suppose to continually submit.

that is not gonna happen. many of us can do it, without resorting to violence. we know that voice really does proceed violence. we know the pen is mightier than the sword.

so men can continue, and will continue to control thru violence.

but, that is not the way women fight this battle.

hence the stupidity when men tell us to pick up a gun and shoot that rapist. the frat boy, football player, ..... next door neighbor. father, brother, uncle, friend.

[malthaussen]

51. You know me, I like to be perverse...

... maybe the message is designed to evoke the backlash. After all, when you women raise your heads, it gives us an excuse to smack them. One way to promote control is to make it seem like the sides are definite and the stakes high. "Look, guys, if we don't smack these women down now, we might have to walk out to the kitchen and get our own beer!" So it isn't so much stupidity when you are told to shoot your attacker, but is probably stupid to do it. Men want to cast the argument in familiar terms of us/them and Survival of the Strongest, because that plays to their strengths. It really seems to me to be a case of the beatings continuing until morale improves, and it does require an awful lot of alertness and awareness to combat it.

Which leads, willy-nilly, back to my original point, that our culture works very hard to discourage alertness and awareness.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

59. i actually amazingly had this conversation with another on du, just yesterday. and it goes....

Common sense and awareness of your audience are useful traits

sometimes it takes a few hard knocks to learn the lessons.

seabeyond (101,702 posts)

56. i am telling you. men have been knocking me upside the head for a while now, thinking it will teach

me

and still. i do not shut up

Nor should you shut up

but you also understand and accept the consequences of speaking up.

seabeyond (101,702 posts)

62. the consequence. a woman dare speaks and violence, vulgarity will ensue. be forewarned, and maybe

i will learn.

ok. and i do accept the consequences and have had it all thrown my way.

you are ok with that?

I am not ok that you must suffer negative consequences for speaking out

sorry if I gave you that impression.

seabeyond (101,702 posts)

66. i was trying to get clarification on that. thank you. nt

[ismnotwasm]

30. Silent Lucidity.

[F4lconF16]

17. Good points.

Our nation needs to be hit over the collective head with a two-by-four and told to wake up.

And this. 1000 times, this.

[seabeyond]

34. as i think she is doing, per my OP and yet.... listen to the conversation. i think that is what

the video is saying also.

[The2ndWheel]

38. So you're saying the smart money is to invest in a lumber company then?

The issue seems to be that one size must fit all. Just because people think critically about an issue, doesn't mean they're going to all come to the same conclusion.

The system is set up for efficiency. It's set up for people to agree on most of the things that go on during an average day. Money has value. Time exists. Go to school. Show up for work. Etc, etc, etc. It's doesn't function by people doing their own thing, or by examining each action and re-action, and asking why do we do X and Y. Nothing would get done.

[treestar]

144. True, it is not the only issue

Militarism, commercialism, all kinds of things

[MrScorpio]

9. At 25, her current business model is pretty strong...

I'd love to see how she works out in five years, when she's going to be twice the average age of her current fan base.

[seabeyond]

15. she may have taken that step that is actually opening up that base. ya think?

[bullwinkle428]

20. Oh, I think a lot of it is learned, as well. Parents, and other adult figures

in your life play an awfully large role in how you end up viewing gender-related issues.

[stevenleser]

22. My all time favorite band is Def Leppard. When she went on tour with them and sang some of their

songs, including my favorite, Photograph, I became a fan.

[Violet_Crumble]

199. Mentioning Def Leppard in a Taylor Swift thread just seems wrong somehow...

I don't know why. I think Def Leppard were a boring 80's hair band and Taylor Swift is insipid and dull, so it's not like I have any great feels for either of them. But after decades of detesting Def Leppard about a year ago I discovered thanks to Rocksmith that Pour Some Sugar On Me is an amazingly fun song to play. And then I started listening to it and it became an earworm and I have to go to watch it on YouTube every now and again to remind myself why I always looked down my nose at Def Leppard. It might be the only Def Leppard song I like, but it's a pretty damn awesome one if I don't watch the clip on YouTube....

[stevenleser]

208. I met the lead singer one time when doing a bit for RT, back when I still accepted those...

... I was 13 when Def Leppard broke onto the scene in a big way and something about the band clicked with me at that age and that was it. I liked rock right on the line between hard and heavy metal. I can get into some metal but not most.

Def Leppard's sound seemed to hit it just right for me at that age.

[F4lconF16]

26. Huh.

I've never been a real fan of her music--pretty standard fare, and a rather boring to my ears, so I've been rather ambivalent about her in the past, but these are some strong ideas. Good to hear from her, words have a very real and appreciable effect when you're that well known. I hope she continues to speak up. She's a strong woman and her voice is a welcome one, like her music or not.

[Xyzse]

27. I have no problems with Taylor Swift... In fact, some of her writing I can commend.

However, that song is an assault to my ears.
That, as well as Shake it Off.

I can understand where it is coming from, but it just sounds godawful.

To those that like it, I don't really care, but please... It really does sound awful, and I just immediately turn to another station as soon as it comes up.

I am hoping that this one falls off the charts, because I can't stand it.
She already has other songs playing constantly on the radio.

[ismnotwasm]

29. Glad she's on board

And I agree, she has the demographic that need to hear this. They are the ones who will continue the fight.

[Exilednight]

31. Sociology 101 would do her some good. It's nurture, not nature. n/t

[seabeyond]

42. It's nurture, not nature.

i think that is clear to her and all of us. your point?

[ismnotwasm]

50. That's what she means by

"Ingrained from the time they are born"

[Exilednight]

55. That's not how I'm reading it.

[malthaussen]

58. Obviously.

Why not? It seems perfectly clear to me. Ingrained since birth, not something one is born with.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

64. hence, us educating you in the reading of it. nt

[ismnotwasm]

76. Why?

[Exilednight]

87. Ingrained means deeply rooted. If something is ingrained since birth,

Then it is deeply rooted from the day they were born, and that just is not the case.

It is a learned over time behavior, not something that one is born with.

[seabeyond]

88. immediately ingrained, from birth. indoctrined. boy, we hold less. girl we hold more. that matters

from the very minute they say boy or girl.

from the

its a boy. pat you on the back, you did it man. you got a son. have a cigar

to

it is a girl....

when you gonna try again?

[Exilednight]

91. I don't get what you're trying to say. I've never experienced that wih friends or family.

[seabeyond]

92. ha... ok. well see. you live in a bubble? .... a world of purity and balance. i gotcha. nt

[Exilednight]

96. On my moms side of the family I am the only born boy

In 4 generations. I do have one adopted nephew from Haiti.

My dad was the oldest of 13. He had 12 sisters.

I don't surround myself with ass holes for friends.

[malthaussen]

103. May be a generational thing, Sea.

It's possible that the rising generation does not experience the same sort of thing in this instance.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

105. if so, it is only because of conversation. i took parenting on as a job. research, listening,

learning, ... seriously. i am still within that parenting range, though, almost done. one more year. lol

if my toes are out, it is not by much. and i am starting again with two nieces and a nephew.

[polly7]

95. Me either.

I have a very large and very, very large extended family. I haven't seen this at all. Surely our culture can't be that different? Not once have I heard disappointment when a girl was born, or 'maybe next time you'll get a boy' - and I promise, if I ever had, I would have said something.

Even I was never treated any differently than my five brothers. I don't know of a single niece (I have 8 brothers and sisters, all with children) who's been held more as a baby than any of her brothers, denied a single thing her brothers were or anything else. Many of them, like me, play hockey and among the younger ones, many (like I did) play on the baseball teams. The only thing I can possibly agree with is with regard to sports and girls not being able to continue on with baseball, but softball is great too. Many show calves in 4-H and have to take care of them completely on their own, some do barrels and roping on horses they're also in complete charge of caring for, etc, etc. Those are just a few examples of what might be considered 'boy activities' - I honestly don't get what girls (apart from those in cultures or religions run by fanatics) are denied today.

Two nieces are oilfield battery operators, another is a welder ... they had no problem getting these jobs. If you try, you can achieve - male or female.

[laundry_queen]

169. I'm a mother of 4 girls

and if I had dollar for every time I have heard something along the lines of "do you wish you had a boy" or "kept trying for a boy eh?" it would pay for a nice large trip to Costco.

I have a LARGE extended family too (even some Duggar size families in there) and the boys always get the farm/house/car and the girls get married off. It's done in a subtle manner (Jim WANTS to work the farm, the girls are busy raising their kids, they don't have time for that!) AT family gatherings, the women are in the kitchen and the guys are sitting at the table talking about cars or farm equipment. The old fashioned roles are still there. Yeah, once in awhile one of the men will help with the dishes, but it's rare and when it happens, said guy gets super accolades from the women and ribbing from the guys about being 'whipped'.

In my workplace, the men get promoted more quickly and get paid more than the women - and have less responsibilities. Recently we found out one of the female supervisors made $35,000 less than her male counterpart, even though she supervised more people and had been with the company longer. A 20-something co-worker of mine who is also a friend once poo-poo'ed me for mentioning our workplace might be sexist. She said sexism didn't exist anymore because SHE had never seen proof of it before. She was convinced she would achieve her career objectives regardless...until she found out 2 guys who were hired after her, who have less experience, who don't have a degree like she does, were hired at a higher rate and received quicker promotions and larger raises. This is someone who could be considered 'key' personnel - she knows how to do things no one else does...yet for every promotion she's received she's had to go in and demand it while the guys have had it handed to them on a silver platter. She confided in me the other day that she is now starting to see that I'm right.

As a child I was absolutely NUTS about hockey. I memorized hockey cards, I had all the pet peeves, numbers, stats, etc of all the Oilers committed to memory at the age of 6. I never needed help skating - the first time I put on skates, I skated for hours without falling once (I was 4). I begged, year after year, to be put in hockey. My brother didn't even want to go in hockey and my parents put him in. I would BEG to practice with my brother's teams and inevitably his coach would tell my dad that I was really good and they should put me in hockey. I begged and begged and the response was, "You are a girl. You cannot 'make' it anywhere in hockey. At least your brother has a chance for the NHL, with you it would just be an expensive hobby." In high school phys ed a teacher asked me if I played hockey, because I was so good (and played with the guys and kept up easily) she just assumed I did. "Nope" "Well you should" she said. "my parents won't put me in it because I'm a girl" I said. She nodded in understanding. I wasn't the only girl with that issue.

I've had to tell my brother to STFU at family gatherings because he'll go on and on about how he hates women rock stars..."girls cannot be rock stars. They sound horrible.All girls sound like they are shrieking" or other similar, stupid, shit about women. Then my dad will tell me to 'stop getting hysterical' about it. I can guarantee you, my family is not the only family around like that. BTW, I do try to limit contact with my girls and my family for this reason.

Also I'm familiar with the oil patch and women STILL have an uphill battle there. It's improved immensely in the last 20 years, but you should hear the guys complain about the girls (and try to sabotage them) when they are not around.

Just because YOU don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It existed for me, and try as I might, it exists around my girls. Denying it just makes it worse for them. I will NEVER sit back and let people pretend it doesn't still exist for THEIR sake. Sexism exists still for MANY (even if it doesn't for you and yours) and therefore it should be a concern for ALL.

[polly7]

172. I didn't say evidence of that extreme claim didn't possibly exist.

immediately ingrained, from birth. indoctrined. boy, we hold less. girl we hold more. that matters

from the very minute they say boy or girl.

from the

its a boy. pat you on the back, you did it man. you got a son. have a cigar

to

it is a girl....

when you gonna try again?

I said I HAVEN'T SEEN IT. EVER. Your experiences are yours, mine are mine. I don't see girls as being treated like little princesses right from birth - held more, or fathers clapped on the back just for having a boy! THAT is what I was replying to. Keep your hostility to yourself.

[laundry_queen]

173. Again, you assert because YOU don't see it, that it doesn't exist

it has nothing to do with my experiences vs yours. It has to do with the fact IT EXISTS and you deny that it does. That is all.

[polly7]

174. Bullshit.

I did NOT say that.

Don't put words in my mouth, it's stupid and underhanded.

Read what I wrote again and point out exactly where I said because I didn't see it, it doesn't exist.

And no, I don't believe that extreme bullshit exists. Girl babies held more - just because - patriarchy!, fathers valued more for having boys! - really??? - here in the west? I SAID possibly by religious extremists and in countries like China. STILL didn't say it "didn't possibly exist."

Don't lie about what I said. Find it an point it out, or just leave me the fuck alone.

Here, maybe you can pick something better out of this one to lie about and change what I said - http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6701766

[laundry_queen]

176. Yeah, I'm thinking the hostility isn't mine here.

Read what I wrote again and point out exactly where I said because I didn't see it, it doesn't exist.

And no, I don't believe that extreme bullshit exists.

So you just BELIEVE it doesn't exist. I beg your pardon.

And yes, here in the west. You must not get out much. I've had these discussions with mommy friends over the years...IRL and online. It exists. And no, just not religious extremists. The comments my ex has had for 'not being able to produce boys'....

Don't even get me started on how some parents treat baby girls differently than baby boys. It happens, even here in Canada. We used to have some really good online discussions about it on my favorite parenting board. And the stories I could tell about what I saw at playgroup...

[polly7]

177. I don't like being lied about.

You've seen what you've seen, I've done the same.

Your experiences don't make them the norm any more than mine do.

It's simple enough to understand ........ no need for lies.

I was responding to the extreme claim that Girl babies are just naturally held more? Bullshit. Fathers are patted on the back for a boy and sympathized with for having a girl? Bullshit. That kind of crap shows just WHO really believes in making girls victims from birth - and it's not me, or anyone like me who sees them as having the ability to do, and be anything they want in life.

Again, don't lie about me, I hate lies.

[laundry_queen]

180. I didn't lie.

I think you are now splitting hairs. In re-reading the thread, I can see you are angry because you think you didn't say it (sexism in this context) didn't exist...but you do imply because you didn't see it, it's not important and you are attempting to invalidate and minimize what seabeyond has seen. Which is not that much different from "I didn't see it therefore it doesn't exist". In your posts, it's implied. If that's not what you meant, then a simple, "I think it exists, but I've never seen any examples of it in my life, therefore I think it's not common or it's on the decrease" would've gone a lot farther.

[polly7]

206. LMAO.

The only one angry here is you because I pointed out I don't appreciate having my post turned into a lie.

I responded to what I did, with my own personal experience.

Don't like it? Tough shit.

[laundry_queen]

216. Well I'll let others judge who is the angry one here.

[R B Garr]

212. +1000. You've nailed it, thank you. "you are attempting to invalidate and

minimize what seabeyond has seen. Which is not that much different from "I didn't see it therefore it doesn't exist."

Exactly! Your posts are excellent.

[laundry_queen]

182. Again, it's not lying.

If I see one thing, and you say you haven't seen it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You are asserting it doesn't exist, and that my experiences are mutually exclusive from yours. They are not. Even if you've never seen it in your life, and I've seen it once, that means it exists. Why can't you admit it? What is it about admitting that our society raises boys and girls differently that upsets you so? Why do you think acknowledging it requires a belief of female victimhood?

[polly7]

210. Where did I say it didn't ever exist.

POINT IT OUT or stop with the lies.

[davidn3600]

187. Yet you can't see that your brother could equally be a victim in that sexism?

He had no interest in hockey, but he was being pushed into it because he's a boy and he's supposed to like sports. Is that not equally as bad as pushing a girl into cooking and sewing hobbies even though she hates it?

It's like how some boys might like the Easy Bake Oven but parents won't buy it because it's for girls. Or if a boy wants to learn how to dance but his father makes him play football.

There is sexism going in that direction too that you may not see.

As for why people would want a boy...a lot of that has to do with the family name. The family name moves through the male side of the family. So a lot of people want to have at least 1 boy. (Several people have actually told me that was the reason). According to one study in 2013, over 90% of women who get married take on their husband's last name. That's an area I've always been surprised feminism has mainly stayed clear of. Especially since a name can ruin you professionally if you've published work under your old name.

[laundry_queen]

193. Did I say I didn't see it?

Nope. That's a pretty grand assumption from you though I'm not surprised you bring it up here, even though that's not the main topic.I thought the fact I thought THAT was sexist too was implied since I brought it up in a thread about sexism, but predictably you think I didn't notice it? LOL.

My brother had his own challenges from being a boy. He often got told to 'not be a baby' when he was hurt (by my dad, not my mom). I did too, but not as often. He got diagnosed with ADHD and put on Ritalin - and then my parents took him off it when he was suicidal from it at age 8...they switched teachers and it turned out he was just highly active and so smart he was bored silly. I was also super smart and bored silly, and we were both disruptive in class when we got bored, but only he was determined to be a 'problem child'. He's now an engineer and makes a quarter mil a year. I'm an accountant and make a fraction of what he does. We both have 4 year degrees. He did end up loving hockey and played at a very high level (and played with people who were eventually drafted by the NHL) and still plays to this day.

Despite my brother's 'issues' as a young child he does far better than I do, and his 'default' is easier than me or my girls' 'default'. I don't have time to get into all the advantages my parents gave him because he was a boy, but needless to say he got a lot of help from my parents that I never did get. Especially financially.

The name thing is still a sexist reason. Many women are keeping their names anyhow, and giving their names to their children. I have many friends who gave their kids their own names, married and single women. I've never seen feminists 'stay clear' of it?

[polly7]

198. Snore.

Not a fucking thing to do with you twisting my words.

Yes, EVERYONE has problems.

I stated what hadn't happened in my own family - you took offence - no big deal, it was the lying about it that pisses me off.

[polly7]

197. Zzzzzzzzz......

You don't know my brothers, me, or anyone else in my family.

None of us bought into the 'girls are victims' theory or denied them any rights, opportunities or freedom.

Maybe it's just a different culture.

[Violet_Crumble]

201. I haven't experienced that either...

I've only had one friend who was really invested in the gender of her baby and was disappointed that she didn't end up with the one she wanted, and she'd desperately wanted a girl, not a boy. Mostly everyone else, including myself when I was pregnant, didn't care about whether it was a boy or a girl and cared about that the baby was healthy.

I never encountered any commiserations, better luck next time types when I had my daughter, and no-one I know has ever mentioned anything like that being said to them when they have girls...

[polly7]

209. Oh come on now ........

Look upthread to the responses to my simple little post and get yourself educated! Of course girl babies are held more and just naturally men are either congratulated or sympathized with depending on the baby's gender.

[Orrex]

93. Funny story:

When we learned that our 2nd child was another boy, literally everyone said "well, maybe your next one will be a girl."

[Exilednight]

154. Ironically, my 12 aunts said the same thing to my dad. I had 4 sisters. n/t

[The2ndWheel]

102. I guess some stereotype's can be good if you're trying to make a point

My sister and her boyfriend just had a girl a few months ago. Nobody was disappointed. Nobody said anything about a boy. Nobody felt sorry for her boyfriend. They don't even want to have anything to do with princesses. Although they have put her in a little dress for family gathering and some pictures since then. So they're probably horrible parents.

[seabeyond]

106. you take it to ridiculous. why? nt

[The2ndWheel]

114. Well this is still the internet

The topic was ingrained misogyny. Where does a frilly little dress for a baby girl that makes her look adorable fall on the spectrum? I don't know. Mostly it was just an absurd joke though.

[seabeyond]

117. i would say the intent more dismissive than anything else.

[The2ndWheel]

119. Alright, which part did you think went to the ridiculous?

I don't know what I'm replying to. The dress/bad parents? Yes, I would not get worked up over parents putting their baby girl in a dress. My sister hates to wear dresses, and usually doesn't, but she put her daughter in a dress, because she thought it was cute. There are pictures without a dress, and just some sort of pull on pants type deal.

[seabeyond]

120. who would get worked up putting a girl in a dress? hence, ridiculous. ya think?

[polly7]

118. I admire Taylor Swift, Miley Cyrus and all young performers speaking out on equality

for all and inspiring young people of all genders, sexual orientation, class, and everything else.

"immediately ingrained, from birth. indoctrined. boy, we hold less. girl we hold more. that matters
View profile
from the very minute they say boy or girl.

from the

its a boy. pat you on the back, you did it man. you got a son. have a cigar

to

it is a girl....

when you gonna try again?"

Your claim, however, is so extreme .... I've never seen an example of it in real life. Yes, in China and other countries who value boys over girls it would be true, but here, in the west? Possibly among religious extremists and some misogynists who don't deserve to even have a child, but I can't see it as being the norm.

[NaturalHigh]

191. You CANNOT be serious.

We hold boys less and girls more? Maybe you did, but we, as in my family, sure don't.

[ismnotwasm]

149. Ok

In that sense you are right, it does take time.

[Exilednight]

155. I view racism the same way. No child is born racist, but

can be taught to hate.

[LuvLoogie]

122. She said "ingrained" not "innate."

Taylor Swift is articulate and understands the words she uses. She is a clever lyricist. She is more intelligent than many give her credit for.

[Exilednight]

124. How do you know how smart she is? Have you say with her for hours having deep

Philosophical conversations?

I know what ingrained means. It means deep rooted. No child is born with a deep rooted attitude towards anything. A child's personalities and views of the world and those in over a long period of time, often constantly changing for good and bad.

[LuvLoogie]

128. "ingrain" is a transitive verb

Do you understand what a transitive verb is and how the mistake is yours, not Taylor Swift's?

[Exilednight]

137. "Ingrained" is an adjective.

Do you understand what an adjective is, and how the mistake is yours?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ingrained

Ingrained


[in-greynd, in-greynd]
adjective
1.
firmly fixed; deep-rooted; inveterate:
ingrained superstition.
2.
wrought into or through the grain or fiber.

[LuvLoogie]

145. You are cherry picking. "Mysogyny is ingrained..." is the verb usage

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ingrain#websters

ingrain [in grān′, in′grān′; for adj. in′grān′; for n. in′grān′]

transitive verb
to dye in the fiber before manufacture
to work into the fiber; infuse deeply: chiefly in a figurative sense, and in the past participle

transitive verb
in·grained, in·grain·ing, in·grains
To fix deeply or indelibly, as in the mind: “A system that had been ingrained for generations could not be easily undone by change from the top” (Doris Kearns Goodwin).
Archaic To dye or stain into the fiber of.


adjective
dyed in the fiber, before manufacture; thoroughly dyed
made of fiber or yarn dyed before weaving: said of rugs, carpeting, etc.
deeply infused

You either need to dig deeper or stop digging.

[Exilednight]

151. No I'm not. She said "from the time they are born"

Hence, they are born that way.

You're not going to convince me otherwise, you're arguing with a journalism graduate.

But I'll run it by some cohorts and see what they think.

[LuvLoogie]

156. You may be a journalism graduate

but you need to revisit English 101. And your appeal to your own authority is a logical fallacy which manages to also beg the question. A two-fer! Congratulations!

[Exilednight]

158. I said I would run it past some cohorts. I've texted the link and waiting for replies. n/t

[Exilednight]

159. From my editor: it would be a transient verb if

She said, "Mysogony is ingrained in people by their friends and family from the time they are born."

[tblue37]

189. Your hyperactive autocorrect turned "transitive" into "transient." You might want to fix that. nt

[tblue37]

190. What makes a verb transitive is that it takes a direct object--the action is TRANSferred from the

agent of the action to the receiver of the action. Since the receiver of the action (i.e., the direct object) of an action verb becomes the subject of the sentence in the passive voice, only a verb capable of taking a direct object (i.e., a transitive verb) can be expressed in the passive voice.

Adding prepositional phrases to modify the verb doesn't make it transitive. Its ability to take a direct object makes the verb transitive, so it is just as transitive in the original sentence, without the addition of the prepositional phrase "by their friends and family."

[Captain Stern]

220. "FROM the time they are born"

That indicates that the action takes in the time period beginning with birth.

For it to mean they're born that way, it would have to say "from BEFORE the time they are born".

[seabeyond]

221. what it INDICATES, is from birth we are conditioned. nurtured. that would be the obvious. another

obvious is the fuckin' game so many men are playing.

misogyny

mi·sog·y·ny
məˈsäjənē/Submit

noun

dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

well. isnt that an obvious, hoot.

[tblue37]

186. In this construction, "is ingrained" is the passive voice of the verb "to ingrain," and it is

the predicate of the clause.

Of course, the passive voice is formed by combining an auxiliary verb (in this case, "is&quot with the past participial form of the main verb ("ingrained&quot .

Participles have two main functions: they can serve either as modifiers or as the main verb in verb phrases. Since the passive voice is a verb phrase, "ingrained" is part of this clause's predicate (i.e., its verb).

Since a participle can also function as a modifier (usually, but not *always* as an adjective; participles can function sometimes as adverbs), the word "ingrained" is sometimes used as an adjective (e.g., an ingrained bias)--but in *this* sentence it is not functioning as an adjective because it is part of the verb phrase that is the predicate of the clause.

[Exilednight]

188. There is one flaw with your explanation. Let's see if you can find it.

[LuvLoogie]

219. You have not made a coherent argument.

You started with an attack on Ms. Swift after having misread her statement. Not only was the context lost on you, but you deem her to have said "People are born mysogynists." That is a stretch and weak sauce to support your snarky suggestion that she take a Sociology 101 class.

I am going to assume that you are dismissive of Ms. Swift's intelligence. This is again indicated in your statement (which is somewhat of a red herring), "How do you know how smart she is? Have you say with her for hours having deep Philosophical conversations?"

And now, rather than make a coherent argument that your interpretation of her statement is correct, you challenge that a coherent explantion of your mistake has a flaw--without daining to let us in on our cluelessness. That's a punk move.

[progressoid]

171. Problem is, they are synonyms.

Synonyms: built-in, constitutional, constitutive, essential, hardwired, immanent, inborn, inbred, indigenous, ingrain, ingrained (also engrained), innate, integral, intrinsic, native, natural

[NCTraveler]

33. I really like Swift and the person she is growing into.

She has welcomed so many into her life. She has helped so many young men and women work through such an awkward time in life for all of us. She seems to be bringing that part of herself right into adulthood. I am beginning to see an extremely smart and powerful woman emerge out of that awkward yet fearless little girl she was. I truly see her doing a lot of good in this world.

[seabeyond]

43. there you go NC, i agree and am seeing the same. totally..... awesome. lol. nt

[LuvLoogie]

123. We really dig her in our house.

I have 7 & 10 year old daughters. My wife is 44; I am 54. Taylor Swift gets it.

Jon Bon Jovi saw it several years ago. A great short interview where the rock veteran talks about the industry today along with some of its young stars.

[NCTraveler]

192. Thank you for sharing that.

Truly appreciated.

[Blue_Adept]

49. "Bad Blood" song is NOT about romantic relationships

“For years, I was never sure if we were friends or not,” she explained about a certain female pop star, without dropping her name. “She would come up to me at awards shows and say something and walk away, and I would think, ‘Are we friends, or did she just give me the harshest insult of my life?'”

“She did something so horrible,” Swift continued. “I was like, ‘Oh, we’re just straight-up enemies.’ And it wasn’t even about a guy! It had to do with business. She basically tried to sabotage an entire arena tour. She tried to hire a bunch of people out from under me. And I’m surprisingly non-confrontational – you would not believe how much I hate conflict. So now I have to avoid her. It’s awkward, and I don’t like it.”

http://www.ryanseacrest.com/2014/09/08/taylor-swift-opens-up-about-girl-drama-meaning-behind-song-bad-blood-in-rolling-stone/

[ismnotwasm]

54. Thanks

That's good to know.

[Blue_Adept]

56. Like most things in life, context helps

I'm always big on that and nuance, though it doesn't come across well online as I'm more of an in-person discussion type. But things like this I feel are worth making sure are out there.

[ismnotwasm]

77. I'm that way too

And I agree it is worth it.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

61. Misogyny is ingrained in people from the time they are born.

She says it and nothing, I say it and LOOKOUT




Yes, men, basically ALL Men are born with this tendency if they are born in a misogynistic society which ours is.

[seabeyond]

65. she says it. she gets plenty of backlash and dismissiveness. and i hear ya. nt

[Goblinmonger]

81. I see no "dismissiveness" of that thought here

I agree with her as to misogyny being ingrained in this (and probably every) society right now.

[seabeyond]

86. dont you kinda get that when her conversation is misogyny and we discuss her relationships? nt

[Goblinmonger]

104. Fair point.

I just know that when I hear anything about her, my reaction to her is as to her being an artist. Which is the persona that she has put across. Though, granted, I don't go out of my way to read a lot about her other than hearing her songs because it just doesn't do it for me.

I do think that most her agree with her point. I could be wrong.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

94. Yes, she does. Actually. I wonder who is doing the back lashing, cant be MEN, can it

[treestar]

136. She did not even single out men

All of us have it ingrained. Women enforce the rules against themselves and other women. Look at all the non-feminist women, judging other women as "sluts" say if they choose to have sex in certain situations. Judging them on their looks and competing.

That's the one oppressed group that has its own members on board in large numbers.

[Rex]

63. Wow, I am impressed, had no idea she was a deep thinker.

Good for her! More power to her!

[Orrex]

89. Curious that "Blank Page" is explictly about a stereotypical crazy girlfriend, then.

One might go so far as to call the protagonist a "woman scorned."

That's either an impressively meta (and hugely profitable) statement on misogyny, or a straight-up (and hugely profitable) portrayal of a misogynistic archetype.


No reason why she can't be strongly pro-woman while still releasing successful pop songs that buy into stereotypes, of course, but I imagine that the same should apply to all the male artists who release successful pop songs that buy into stereotypes.

[YoungDemCA]

100. K&R. Thanks for this thread, sea...

Our culture does have a lot of sexism and misogyny embedded in it. Recognizing that reality is critical for all of us, regardless of gender or sexuality or whatever our particular life experience may be.

As for Taylor Swift, I respect her immensely for speaking out in this way, and being honest about her perspective. It's refreshing, actually. She doesn't take herself too seriously, yet she still can offer a lot of insight and perspective to a lot of young people - women and men, girls and boys - who are struggling with finding themselves, figuring out who they are, and how they "fit" or don't fit into the culture. That's commendable on her part.

[seabeyond]

107. i have not been a part of her history, only minimally. mostly, not my thing. i do like to listen

to our women as they age and shift.

[J_J_]

109. yes! "girls and boys - who are struggling with finding themselves, figuring out who they are"

This is who Taylor Swift speaks to, and she is helping young people so all the adults here need to back off, the world does not revolve around older people.

My daughter bought a video of her tour, I didn't really like her music but watched it...I was just overwhelmed by love, that girl is all about love, and helping young girls stand up for themselves, feel good about themselves.

Now I get her and appreciate her music for what it does.

Shake it off, is all about her being attacked for her songs about relationships, and how she just rises above, teaching others to do the same.

She is a self motivated, talented, highly successful woman who is still full of love. She treats all of her performers as equals.

She is an awesome example for young women.

[seabeyond]

110. the third video above. not mine thing, nor do i need it. an adult. but, i did recognize what an

excellent message to the preteen and teen she is talking to.

[abelenkpe]

108. Ok Ok

I'll stop wishing my 8 year old daughter didn't like Taylor Swift so much...

[seabeyond]

111. ha ha ha. ya. hm. nt

[seabeyond]

112. pink is a fav of mine.

[dawg]

113. Swift has some of the better songs on the radio these days.

For me, that's damning with faint praise, but I certainly never switch the station when she comes on.

As for her views on feminism, good for her. It shows that she is thinking about more than just cute guys and having fun. I look forward to more of that seeping into her music.

[Doctor_J]

115. she's being held back?

It doesn't show

[treestar]

133. When she gets older and less "hot" she will be judged on it a lot sooner

at a far earlier age.

[Doctor_J]

141. You have great faith in your crystal ball.

Emmylou, Crystal, Loretta, Dolly, Nanci didn't appear in it?

[treestar]

150. Just generally, women will get comments on

the fact they are getting older and it they don't dedicate most of their time to preservation, they will get the criticism. The men won't. We all have known this since time immemorial. It hasn't entirely stopped yet.

[davidn3600]

125. That's so cute...

A white girl worth $200 million bucks feels oppressed. That's a good one.

And she's wrong. If a man writes about his break-ups and crushes and his deep inner feelings the way Taylor does, he won't be labeled "brave." He'll be called weak and will be called a certain part of female anatomy. He may even be called a homosexual. This world doesn't like men to reveal their feelings and emotions. It's considered weak. Boys are trained from very early ages to keep that stuff inside.

That's what is ingrained at birth, Taylor.

[seabeyond]

129. "white girl worth $200 million bucks feels oppressed." clear to all on du you do not get misogyny

[geek tragedy]

135. that's a rather gentle way of putting it . . .

Must have missed Hank Williams being disparaged as a wimp.

[davidn3600]

143. I think most people wouldn't mind having her problems

I wish all I had to worry about in this world is how the media thinks I'm clingy and have too many relationships.

[treestar]

148. She's talking about society in general!

Not just herself. Women who have it good can still understand feminism.

[davidn3600]

157. I like said...

I'd love to have only her problems.

Most people in this world would agree with me. She won't have any problems paying the mortgage, affording the best healthcare money can buy, keeping the fridge stocked with food. traveling the world, etc, etc...

99% of this planet could only dream to have the life she has. And her complaint is that she gets criticism from the media that she sounds boy crazy.

[treestar]

203. She's still dealing with sexism

would you say Oprah should never discuss racism? She was treated discriminatorily in some Swiss expensive shop, but that's OK, since she has plenty of money?

[seabeyond]

161. he is anti feminist, from day one. not fair, she has money, so what if she has to deal with misogyny

[davidn3600]

163. So when someone doesn't like her music or calls it "whiny"...

...that's misogynistic? That's anti-feminist?

Because we are all born to hate women, right?

"Misogyny is ingrained in people from the time they are born." In other words she's saying all men are born to hate women. That it is innate in the male genetic code to hate women. And we all have to be educated by her to not hate.

That's ridiculous.

Tell me, educate me, how is Taylor Swift oppressed? How is society wronging her? How is she suffering? Are we not buying enough of her music? Should people not be allowed to criticize her music?

Someone criticizing her music because they don't like it isn't misogynistic!

She would have come off a heck of a lot more credible if she would give us examples of misogyny in this world. But the only example she gave is that people call her music "whiny." That's misogyny?

[seabeyond]

164. A white girl worth $200 million bucks feels oppressed. That's a good one.

[treestar]

204. She was referring to the objectification of her looks

by being chosen as hottest, not to her music at all.

Also saying it is ingrained in us all, including women. You see women being misogynistic. She didn't even single out men!

[treestar]

202. Yeah true. President Obama and Oprah, etc.

don't have to deal with racism either and shouldn't say a word about it!

[seabeyond]

160. you all in your brilliance, continue giving the example of economic populist position, excluding

social

here we go dude. she lives a life dealing with the bullshit ALL women and girls have to deal with, and more so in ways because she is out there, but man.... she had that money

she should be satisfied

then you bestowing the grandness of your economic populist movement dare to tell us you give a flying fuck about the social justice issues.

i will bookmark so when populist tell us once again, to trust their ability to include social.... how lacking and unaware you are.

[geek tragedy]

131. Ever listen to a blues record? This entire comment reeks of MRAishness with a side of homophobia nt

[cyberswede]

168. +1

Surprised? Me neither.

[treestar]

132. No I think she is right

There are plenty of songs by men about such things, and I've never heard the men put down once. How many songs by the Stones or the Who or the Beatles lament break ups? Tons. Jackson Browne would go on about his inner feelings. We thought he was cool.

[geek tragedy]

139. "I'm so lonesome, I could cry"

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=i%27m+so+lonesome+i+could+cry&tbm=vid

[treestar]

146. I heard that as a kid!

Dad had the albums! Old fashioned country.

[ismnotwasm]

152. FFS

*pulls out playlist with lots of breakup songs by men -- across genres*. What the hell?

[treestar]

130. She gets it

And in women too. We learn to disrespect other women's choices.

[DonCoquixote]

140. just a NOTE

supposedly this song has nothign to do with a breakup with a boy, but about the falling out she had with Katy Perry.

[Dont call me Shirley]

142. Now I really like Taylor! Way to go Woman! You rock!

[BlueJazz]

147. "Misogyny is ingrained in people from the time they are born"

That statement is incorrect. Misogyny is ingrained in some of the people from the time they are born.
True, there is enough to be a pain in the ass but there are many people who have a natural share of fairness and view people as individuals, not as objects.
One thing that's not obvious to many women is the fact that quite a few men just don't stand up for fairness (for lack of a better word) because of severe peer pressure..IE: Groups of asshole males and Alpha males.
I was spared that fear 'cause of my size but I noticed it even at a young age.

Everybody should be near-perfect like me.

[Skittles]

153. I think one of the main reasons for misogyny

is deep down, men know nothing they can accomplish even comes close to the ability to grow a human being inside of you....nope

[Arugula Latte]

167. I think Freud felt that deep down, so he flipped it and came up with "penis envy."

I can safely say that in no time in my entire life did I ever wish to have a penis.

[NaturalHigh]

165. "Misogyny Is Ingrained in People From the Time They Are Born"

That's the stupidest thing I've read today, and believe me, that's saying something.

She thinks people are born hating women? Yet one more reason we probably shouldn't rely on celebrities' philosophies to get us through life.

[laundry_queen]

178. Upthread

it's already been discussed ad nauseum that it probably wasn't the correct grammatical usage but the implication is not that people are born knowing to hate women, but that from the time of birth they are inundated with so many examples of subtle sexism that it's accepted as normal and never questioned.

And I'm sorry you've wasted so much time reading stupid stuff today. Perhaps you need to upgrade your reading materials.

[laundry_queen]

181. I think you need a breather from this thread nt

[polly7]

196. I thought the same of you after your first post. nt.

[treestar]

205. They pretty much discuss it upthread

No she isn't saying people are born hating women. Some other poster confused "ingrained" with "innate" to make that silly claim. She means we are all indoctrinated in it.

[polly7]

207. No, we are not all indoctrinated in it. Speak for yourself. nt.

[NaturalHigh]

184. "Perhaps you need to upgrade your reading materials."

About to. Clive Barker's new book just came out Tuesday.

[laundry_queen]

185. Cool.

Getting a new book is always exciting for me. I hope you enjoy it! You made me go look up his name. Looks interesting, I may have to check him out (and I generally don't read fiction, but his books sound fascinating).

[Nuclear Unicorn]

200. What does Kanye think?

[geek tragedy]

211. "Beyonce made the most profound feminist statement ever." nt

[Zambero]

213. Tribalism is a powerful force

It has been suggested that at it's core, conservatism is an innate reaction to the conflicting forces of latent tribalism as a survival mechanism, pitted against modern society's efforts to accommodate its many diverse components. Not everyone falls into this category, and some who do will change for the better. However, I'm at a loss to explain why so many people, poor and middle class whites in particular, actively work to sabotage their best interests by putting right-wing politicians into power and keeping them there.

[seabeyond]

214. tribalism. yea. and fascinating. yes. i think i might have to do some reading on your point.

it really feels as if that perspective has real value

thank you

[seabeyond]

215. the minute someone changes my words from a group of men, to ALL men, i am going to stop

taking you seriously. immediately.

that is all