When The Gang-bangers Are White Guys

[marmar]

from the Marshall Project:


When The Gang-bangers Are White Guys
“If these biker gangs were non-white, we’d have a national freakout.”

By DANA GOLDSTEIN


If you thought violent biker gangs were a relic of the Altamont era, Sunday’s shootout at a Waco, Texas restaurant might have come as a shock. A long simmering beef between the Bandidos and Cossacks boiled over into gunfire. When police arrived at the scene, gang members shot at them, too, leaving nine bikers dead, 18 people injured, and 170 suspects in police custody. Over 100 weapons have been confiscated.

The scale of this incident dwarfs a typical urban gang confrontation, says Harold Pollack, co-director of the University of Chicago Crime Lab and an expert on gangs and guns. We talked to Pollack about why biker gang violence typically gets so little attention. He believes the Waco incident confounds our expectations regarding the race and geographic location of people who perpetrate crime, causing us to see biker gangs as more of a “curiosity” than a threat.

How does the shootout in Waco differ from the gang violence you study in Chicago?

I have never encountered a gang incident in Chicago remotely like this. The number of perpetrators involved — not to mention the nine deaths — far exceed the typical urban gang-related shooting. Maybe there was some gang incident in Chicago like this decades ago. But this sort of pitched battle? I’ve never heard of anything like it. If these biker gang members were non-white, I think this would cause a national freak out.

One of the shocking parts of this incident is that after the police arrived, there was a gunfight between the gang members and the authorities.

Urban gangs and criminal organizations very rarely get into gun battles with police. They certainly have access to powerful weaponry. Police around the country periodically capture large caches of AR-15s and other weapons in cities. Yet when they break down the door to a gang safe house or a drug location in a city, whatever weapons might be piled on a mattress in the adjoining room are left where they are. They aren’t picked up and used to attack the police. The people who do attack police are typically cornered individuals or people with serious mental health problems.

These biker gangs have a long history in organized crime. They began with restless, traumatized veterans returning home after World War II. Today, biker gangs still act as a sort of private militia that police can’t always control, patrolling festivals and other events. Why don’t we pay more attention to them?

Geography may be part of the answer. There are not a lot of outlaw biker gangs in gentrifying Brooklyn and other key media centers. Of course, the number of deaths is lower overall with these groups. You don’t have the daily deluge of homicides the way we would in Chicago. But I do think that our views about urban crime are so framed by race and inequality in a variety of ways. When criminal activity seems unrelated to these factors, it doesn’t hit our national dopamine receptors in quite the same way. People tend to view these motorcycle gangs as a kind of curiosity. ...................(more)

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/05/19/when-the-gang-bangers-are-white-guys

[BumRushDaShow]

1. Bravo!

This should have hundreds of recs. What happened in Waco was no different than all the Mafiaso bloodbaths. Yet the talking heads like vomiting forth "Bloods and Crips" when a couple of gun-toting hoodlums do a drive-by in someone else's neighborhood (terrorizing that community in the process), but can't seem to utter "Bandidos and Cossacks", where dozens and dozens swarm a location and create a mass-casualty situation in a mall parking lot.

[MosheFeingold]

3. Um, the Bandidos and Cossacks are mixed race gangs

Per the DOJ they include Anglo and Hispanic members and also (albeit rarely) black members, generally also Hispanic.

Not that I disagree with the thesis of the article. But the underlying assumptions are wrong in this case.

[BumRushDaShow]

4. "Hispanic" is not a race. nt

[snooper2]

7. the government is working on fixing that

I guess you could say a lot of white hispanics were in the gang-



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States_Census

Census 2010[edit]
The 2010 US Census included changes designed to more clearly distinguish Hispanic ethnicity as not being a race. That included adding the sentence: "For this census, Hispanic origins are not races."[19][20] Additionally, the Hispanic terms were modified from "Hispanic or Latino" to "Hispanic, Latino or Spanish origin".[19][20]

Although used in the Census and the American Community Survey, "Some other race" is not an official race,[18] and the Bureau considered eliminating it prior to the 2000 Census.[21] As the 2010 census form did not contain the question titled "Ancestry" found in prior censuses, there were campaigns to get non-Hispanic West Indian Americans,[22] Turkish Americans,[23] Armenian Americans, Arab Americans and Iranian Americans to indicate their ethnic or national background through the race question, specifically the "Some other race" category.[24][25][26]

The Interagency Committee has suggested that the concept of marking multiple boxes be extended to the Hispanic origin question, thereby freeing individuals from having to choose between their parents' ethnic heritages. In other words, a respondent could choose both "Hispanic or Latino" and "Not Hispanic or Latino".[27]

[BumRushDaShow]

10. The convoluted "race" system in the U.S. is so fucked up

that it'll never be "fixed". Centuries of "1-drop", "honorary whites", "mulattoes" versus "quadroons" versus "octoroons", and other such nonsense (see Plessy vs Ferguson) has been lost on many except by the people who these "rule-makers" impacted. I.e., you better know what "rule" was in effect that day or at that moment or you suffered.

[bravenak]

101. Thank you.

Awesome response.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

111. Weren't you saying over in DI

that people who were 100% black were "Negroes" and bi-racial folk were "colored people"?

[bravenak]

112. I said that's what thry were 'called', yes.

Anything else?

[Boudica the Lyoness]

120. lol

[bravenak]

121. Have fun at Discussionist, BtL.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

122. You too.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. It's not an accurate term at all....

The island of Hispaniola is divided into Haiti and the Dominican Republic.

The population is a blend of Spanish, French, African, and Native American.

[BumRushDaShow]

52. Plus

the term causes all sorts of issues with Spanish-speakers from different parts of the world.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

59. I'm old enough to remember "Latin lover"....

Back before the Republicans decided to scapegoat them for their own lack of job creation.

[BumRushDaShow]

61. Me too

and all types of other terms. Depending on the whim of the powers-to-be at different points in this nation's history ...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

71. You can always toss this at them...

Drives them crazy.

[BumRushDaShow]

72. !!! Or

Trekkie fan favorite -

[Adsos Letter]

104. "Fine Corinthian leather..."

[Lizzie Poppet]

87. Fine. They're mestizo.

The fact remains that of the people arrested in connection with this incident, seven or eight, judging from their pictures, are not caucasian or black. Apparently these outlaw gangs are equal opportunity shitheads.

[BumRushDaShow]

89. You missed the rest of the thread

The point of the OP was pointing out not so much to what they really "are" but what the media and cops and others "perceive them to be", and they are treated accordingly. And that can change at the drop of a hat. If they "look white", then they are treated as such until the surname is discovered, and then the "rules" change. That's been the problem in the U.S. for centuries.

[Lizzie Poppet]

90. Nope, I caught that.

I just don't much care in this particular case. The gang members in question don't "look white" anyway. You have looked at the mugshots, right? Those guys have probably been subjected to plenty of racism based on their looks (not that it excuses their murderous douchebaggery...).

[BumRushDaShow]

94. Yup, the mugshots have been all over the place

A hardcore bunch to be sure. And they most certainly do "look white" as they would not have been mistaken for being "Bloods" or "Crips" (other murderous douchebags).

[Lizzie Poppet]

98. "And they most certainly do 'look white'"

Um...okay.

I guess we can stop now, since that statement seems so bizarre to me that I'm not sure there's sufficient common ground for meaningful conversation. Probably because I grew up in the Southwest, most of the racial strife and bigotry I encountered was between caucasians and mestizos. Many of the latter would undoubtedly have given you the shiteye if you told them they "looked white." There were vastly more mestizos than blacks, of course...and in a lot of areas, whites were/are the minority.

[Historic NY]

6. I agree the might have affiliates....

which mean they aren't pledges. They could be somebody's buddy or that guy that paints gas tanks. I'm on the east coast and I know a few "affiliates" in fact one of the big motorcycle museums is a mile from my house.

[MosheFeingold]

51. I was going by the lower rocker on the jacket

The three part patch on the back (technically upper rocker, patch, lower rocker) is strictly a members thing, not affiliates.

[1StrongBlackMan]

92. So are the Crips and Bloods ...

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=white+crips+and+bloods&qpvt=white+crips+and+bloods&qpvt=white+crips+and+bloods&FORM=IGRE

Further, in Arizona ... there are whole sets (of Crips and Bloods) that have 100% Hispanic membership ... yet, these gangs are not touted as "mixed race gangs".

[MosheFeingold]

95. So?

The only reason the "mixed race" thing is relevant is people were mistakenly saying the MC gangs were Anglo.

In fact, several articles were published today premised on that false belief.

Alas, it looks like criminals from all races joined these MC gangs, so the race angle is not particularly relevant.

The meth and prostitute trade brings people together better than Coca Cola, I guess.

That said, I do agree when the crips and bloods do something stupid and violent like these losers, we need to put up the mug shots of them and show that they have become equal opportunity criminals, just like these MC gangs, to disabuse people of their antiquated beliefs regarding them.

[1StrongBlackMan]

96. Is that the only reason? ...

Why aren't the Crips and Bloods called "mixed race" gangs, as well?

[MosheFeingold]

97. Because they weren't there.

We also didn't talk about the racial make up of Hells Angels, the Aryan Nation, or the Jewish Defense League (who are Jewish thugs in case you ever need an example).

Look, I understand your point about blacks getting broad-brushed, but it's not relevant here.

And again, next time a mixed race group of crips and bloods shoot up each other at a Twin Peaks, post the mug shots, and when someone stupidly says they are a black gang, I'll be the first one to point out they have evolved into a veritable United Colors of Benetton of thuggery.

[AgingAmerican]

2. The Banditos are mixed white and hispanic

In Texas they are mostly Hispanic.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/19/us/gallery/texas-biker-mugshots/

[BumRushDaShow]

5. "Hispanic" is a language group. Not a race. nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

9. And in Texas, we call white people "Anglos."

[BumRushDaShow]

12. And in Hawai'i, the natives call white people "Haoles".

[tclambert]

42. Is that how Hawaiians spell asshole?

[BumRushDaShow]

43. You have to ask them. nt

[cwydro]

57. Nice. nt

[sulphurdunn]

49. My ancestors are Celtic,

Teutonic and Nordic. Believe me when I say, they wouldn't want there to be any confusion about it either, since they never did get along.

[1939]

102. Nordic (like me) are a branch of Teutonic/Germanic NT

[Lizzie Poppet]

88. Yep. Despite only a tiny minority being descended from Angles (or even Saxons and Jutes).

I do like how this part of the thread has been deflected by vacuous pedantry, though. And by "like," I mean "rolling my eyes."

[AgingAmerican]

11. Most Texas Hispanics are Mexican/mestizo

I have a minor in Hispanic studies, ask me anything.

[BumRushDaShow]

14. They are still not a "race". nt

[AgingAmerican]

15. They are mixed race

Mixed native and Spanish

They are not 'white'.

[BumRushDaShow]

18. "Native" is not a race.

[AgingAmerican]

21. If native Americans are not a race

Then what are they? They are 'Mongoloid', not 'Caucasoid'.

You keep grasping at straws.

[BumRushDaShow]

23. Sorry but I didn't define the "system"

The European "colonists" and their descendents did. And by some of their reasoning, they might define "Native Americans" as "Mongoloid" (Asian), but I expect that some native tribes would consider that hogwash.

Your denial is showing. This nation has an insane past that evolved that way thanks to some insane "leaders" who wanted to ensure their superiority over the "savages" that they dragged here from another continent and who they conquered, who were already living here.

[AgingAmerican]

24. That is what scientists classify them as

But what do scientists know

OK, you win, native Americans are white.

Have a nice day.

[BumRushDaShow]

26. When one can't put up the evidence

then the debate gets summarily dismissed. The same "scientists" helped to create the anthropological nightmare that is the U.S. race system.

There were court cases related to race at the turn of the 20th century where you had two instances (Japanese and East Indian) who attempted to be classified as "white" because of the immigration/naturalization quota laws that were in place at the time that kept Asians from citizenship. They surely weren't going to try to claim they were "black" (which at the time, was also eligible for naturalization).

As I stated in Post #10, the system is fucked up and its been that way for a long long time. And if you are a victim of it like many of us, you had to learn all the nooks and crannies or you were screwed (or dead). One day "skin color" will be the determinate and the next, your ancestry, and it would behoove you to know which was the case at that moment.

[AgingAmerican]

27. It has nothing to do with the US

Native Americans inhabit both north and South America.

But you cannot admit that they are not white so it is useless talking to you about it.

[BumRushDaShow]

30. We're not talking about South America

where you have places like Brazil where Portuguese slavers freely bred with their female African slaves to create the largest diaspora of Africans off that continent.

We're talking about Texas and the U.S. and the convoluted classification of race depending on the time of day or the whim of the person in power invoking the laws in their jurisdiction.

All you have to do is ask them to pick one of the 3 and see how many pick "black". But as they say, "denial" ain't just a river in Egypt (a river that I have been on and have seen the "Caucasoid"-labeled black people there).

[AgingAmerican]

50. Native Americans exist from the Arctic to

to the southern tip of South America.

Have a nice day!

[BumRushDaShow]

55. Has nothing to do with how the U.S. historically

"classified" them and so many other "non-whites" over the past couple hundred years.

[AgingAmerican]

63. Doesn't matter

Mestizo are not white no matter what you say.

This silly conversation is over. You can have the last word.

Have a nice day.

[BumRushDaShow]

66. .

<..>

In 1781, a certain Jose Vanegas was classified as Indian. Nine years later, however, he is listed as a mestizo. Similarly, while the first census lists Jose Navarro as mestizo, in 1790, he has become a Spaniard instead.

Sixty years later, after the U.S. annexed Texas and conquered the Southwest, stricter boundaries went back into effect. Biology and not culture would determine caste and race. In general, the darker a person's skin color and the lower a person's status, the more vulnerable were that individual's rights. To solidify the boundaries, U.S. authorities established anti-miscegenation ordinances to discourage racial mixing.

To the extent that Mexican Americans did enjoy legal rights under the new regime, it was because the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which ended the Mexican-American War and extended U.S. citizenship to Mexicans in the conquered region, well before blacks, Asians and Native Americans were eligible. They weren't socially "white," but between 1850 and 1920, the U.S. Census counted ethnic Mexicans in the white column.

It makes sense, then, that for much of the 20th century, whenever Mexican Americans were kept out of certain neighborhoods or schools or kept off juries, they employed the "other white race" strategy, asserting their rights by arguing that, as whites, they were being unfairly excluded.

<..>

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/la-oe-rodriguez3sep03-column.html

I think you completely miss the entire thought process that I have deployed. You may believe exactly as you do which is fine, but you are not the powers-that-be who define and enforce what "is" is - where the "is" has been a constantly moving target over the past couple centuries, and that "is" was dutifully enacted and codified into the law to drive home their point of who made the rules.

[Hekate]

82. Spain once owned all of the American Southwest and California as well as Mexico. When they colonized

...those regions they intentionally created a mestizo culture -- through marriage between Spanish soldier/colonists and indigenous women (indigenous = native to the region = native = Native American = American Indian). Whatever you may think of the policy, which included conversion to Roman Catholic Christianity, it was not slavery. Spain wanted resident taxpayers and people loyal to Spain who would send them the riches of the New World. They wanted a culture to grow up that was both rooted in the New World and yet oriented toward Spain.

It was really very different from what the English settlers did on the East Coast, which was to attempt to recreate English culture in the New World and definitely not intermarry in large numbers with the Native Americans. It was different from the importation of slaves from Africa that included women who were considered property to be raped but not married to, with offspring who were born into slavery and not legitimized.

I find the Spanish colonial policy problematic, like all colonial policies, but that is not the issue here. I live in California, where Spanish place-names abound and where Father Junipero Serra is considered one of California's founding fathers. Los Angeles was founded in 1777 by the Spanish governor of California, but Spanish claims in the territory went back to the 1500s. And, you know, marriages with resulting Spanish surnames and resulting brown or brownish offspring who did not identify as Native American.

You are attempting to argue racial politics and are confusing a real and growing subset of American culture (one that includes people whose ancestors were here before the Revolution and people who are immigrating in waves from Mexico, Central America, and South America) with the black/white racial politics of the pre-Civil War/segregationist/Jim Crow South. It's not the same. Not the same history and not the same set of problems.

It's all well and good to claim there are no "races" -- and I myself will argue from my decades in Hawai'i that concepts of race and ethnicity are socially malleable -- but you're off the track here and not making your argument any clearer.

[BumRushDaShow]

85. Yup but

Guess who won all the wars? Not the Spaniards (who also settled in Florida) or the French who had colonized other parts and then had to sell it to pay for their war in Haiti...

As various groups began to flow into the U.S., ran smack dab into the insanity of those who ran the country. Yes they had their own issues, but from the AA perspective, those "waves" were automatically assigned a "status" that was purposely "above" that of the AAs who were here from before the establishment of this nation. Those immigrants maintained their language and culture. Ours was stripped away - not unlike those trying to do the "English Only" rules.

I think many are missing the point of what I am saying. It is from a perspective that unless you live it, you can never know it. Even among African-descended groups like the Haitians - who had immigrated here only to call native-born AAs "lazy" and other nonsense, soon felt the wrath when their entire community was dubbed as "carriers of AIDS" and those trying to flee Haiti were left to drown at sea. In essence, the "rules" changed depending on a whim.

You all are arguing from a perspective that I completely agree with - but the reality and the point of the OP is, that what "we" may think or define ourselves as, is essentially moot because "someone" (the PTB, the media, the police&quot may or can "define us" as something entirely different, and then will "act" on that perception, because they have the power and authority to do so.

[1939]

105. Not necessarily

How many second and third generations of Americans speak the language of their ancestors? When my grandparents came to this country and their first born (my uncle) went to school, he was sent home with a note to "teach this boy English before he comes back to school". My grandmother said "No more Swede in the house" and meant it. My other uncle and my father never knew more than a few words and phrases of Swedish. As a small boy, overnighting at my grandparents house, they always spoke English, even when they thought I was asleep. I never heard Grandpa and Grandma ever use a Swedish word in my presence. Other than a few Christmas traditions, their culture was washed out and we were "Anglos".

[Hekate]

35. Somebody wants to keep arguing to prove a point without helping to clarify the situation at hand

[meathead]

123. New Mexico

has plenty of white hispanics. They are racially distinct Spanish descendants. Though less common, you can find the same folks in south TX

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

73. But most consider themselves "persons of color"

So what you are saying is that if a hispanic person commits a crime, he's white, but if he's discriminated against, he's a person of color?"

[BumRushDaShow]

75. It is not what they consider themselves

Last edited Thu May 21, 2015, 04:46 AM - Edit history (1)

It is what the people who do the defining consider them. That has been part of the entire problem that I elucidated in Post #10. And as a side note, in Post #66, you see the problem of what causes the fluctations of race "assignments" by the PTB -

<..>

In 1781, a certain Jose Vanegas was classified as Indian. Nine years later, however, he is listed as a mestizo. Similarly, while the first census lists Jose Navarro as mestizo, in 1790, he has become a Spaniard instead.

Sixty years later, after the U.S. annexed Texas and conquered the Southwest, stricter boundaries went back into effect. Biology and not culture would determine caste and race. In general, the darker a person's skin color and the lower a person's status, the more vulnerable were that individual's rights. To solidify the boundaries, U.S. authorities established anti-miscegenation ordinances to discourage racial mixing.

To the extent that Mexican Americans did enjoy legal rights under the new regime, it was because the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which ended the Mexican-American War and extended U.S. citizenship to Mexicans in the conquered region, well before blacks, Asians and Native Americans were eligible. They weren't socially "white," but between 1850 and 1920, the U.S. Census counted ethnic Mexicans in the white column.

It makes sense, then, that for much of the 20th century, whenever Mexican Americans were kept out of certain neighborhoods or schools or kept off juries, they employed the "other white race" strategy, asserting their rights by arguing that, as whites, they were being unfairly excluded.

<..>

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/la-oe-rodriguez3sep03-column.html

The "people of color" themselves may not subscribe to any of the nonsense that the European "founding fathers" put in place in the U.S. regarding their twisted definitions of "race" and who belonged to one as codified in law over the centuries, but they were and continue to be impacted to it - whether de facto or de jure (e.g., the "perception" of who or what they are based on the rule-maker versus self-determination). And added into that mix is skin color/shade. It was a fact that the lighter the skin, the better the treatment... It is too ingrained into the fabric of this nation. As Dubois wrote in 1903 in his book "The Souls of Black Folk" -

"The problem of the twentieth century is the problem of the color-line—the relation of the darker to the lighter races of men in Asia and Africa, in America and the islands of the sea"

That's why the rest of the world (except maybe South Africa) looks at us as if "we" ("editorial we" or the powers that define in the U.S.) have lost our minds.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

99. It's very confusing

It's very confusing, isn't it. A friend of mine insists that she is Latina, while her husband insists that he is hispanic. It's kind of a joke between them.

[1939]

103. Except

when people opposed to undocumented immigration say that constitutes "racism" against "brown" people.

[Hekate]

19. So inform your readers what the preferred term is. In California, "Latino" ....

...would be used to refer to the men in the mug shots with Hispanic names and a more or less Mexican cast of features.

California has a very large Latino population, most of whom are trying to get on with their lives like everyone else. We also have some Latino gangs, and I saw quite a few Latino faces and names in those mug shots. Los Angeles has some well-known black gangs as well, and I saw two (out of the 172) that were identifiable as black from a quick scan. As far as I know gangs usually self-segregate along racial and ethnic lines.

So from the mug shots: a lot of whites, a lot of Latinos, a small minority of blacks. If the Bloods and Crips were represented there, they were either killed or evaded capture.

[BumRushDaShow]

20. And what you describe are ethnic groups

Like the Caribbean Spanish-speakers here on the east coast who prefer to be called by their nationalities (e.g., "Puerto Ricans" or "Dominicans", etc).

As I noted in Post #10, the system that was created and evolved and got tied up and twisted by whim here in the U.S. lumps ethnic groups and nationalities into a cacophony of nonsense. What was defined and enforced was "Caucasoid", "Negroid", and "Mongoloid". And people were shoved into those groups on a whim - notably based on your phenotype (what you looked like)... unless you had some "ancestor" of another race, and then the rules changed.

There is an old saying (with variations) - "If you are white, you're all right", "If you are yellow, you're mellow", "If you are brown, stick around (or in some versions, 'flush it down')", and "If you are black, step back". Just found an OP on that!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017131497

#t=38

[R.A. Ganoush]

29. You may want to inform the EEOC about that...

Considering its one of the available race options for EEO-1 and Affirmative Action Plan reporting.

[BumRushDaShow]

31. And THAT is the problem

They can't even keep it straight and it continually changes because the "system" (as I stated in Post #10) is complete fucked up. They blend language groups with ethnic groups with "races". They know it's a problem but what can they do? They didn't create it. The colonial powers and their ancestors/progeny in this country did. But they know people are impacted because of what they look like or who they descend from and they need a way to track that.

[R.A. Ganoush]

33. No argument from me

I still can't understand why individuals from the middle east, Pakistan and India have to be classified as Caucasian...but then again, from a reporting standpoint, I'd be miserable if I had to add another 10 race classifications to the mix.

[BumRushDaShow]

34. And that is exactly what I am talking about

The same goes for anyone in "North Africa", who were defined as "Caucasian", no matter what color. Many of the classifications changed with the wind in order to either co-opt historical events of prominence from a particular group or to denigrate a group who was being oppressed for financial gain. And sadly that got woven into the fabric of American law.

[snooper2]

8. thanks for that link, some of those mugshots are classic

[AgingAmerican]

13. Yeah, some real winners in that group

Some are downright ugly

[snooper2]

17. Noticed a few ladies (of different ethnicity) got down with the throw-down as well

but this is a thread about white guys

[Eleanors38]

56. Ahh, close enough.

[AgingAmerican]

64. This one looks like Freddy Krueger

I bet the jail staff have their hands full. Wouldn't want to be a 'normal' prisoner in with these guys.

[LittleBlue]

22. Ah, okay

Thanks. This puts it in perspective

[Spitfire of ATJ]

41. The media sees everything in black and white....

They also like to link new stories to the flavor of the month.

[1StrongBlackMan]

93. And so are the Crips and Bloods ...

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=white+crips+and+bloods&qpvt=white+crips+and+bloods&qpvt=white+crips+and+bloods&FORM=IGRE

I know in Arizona, there are entire sets that have 100% Hispanic membership.

[phil89]

16. Was anyone

rioting and looting to support them?

[ieoeja]

25. 1. Did police shoot unarmed bikers in WACO?

2. Are you claiming that people protesting against police when they shoot unarmed Black men are secretly protesting in support of urban gangs?

[BumRushDaShow]

28. It's ironic how many DUers can't see the difference

It comes from many generations of indoctrination, including the "universalism" of their culture and marginalization of any not theirs.

[guillaumeb]

32. When white gang members act like this:

they are affirming their heritage as proud, Anglo Saxon, gun loving patriots.

When minority gang members do this, they are a menace to society.

[gratuitous]

36. And the cause is very important, too

In Baltimore, those thugs were getting all violent and stuff just because another one of their own had been killed by the police. Peanuts. The Waco brouhaha was over a parking space, which is god damned serious stuff, buckaroo! I mean, sure, you can have a family member snuffed by law enforcement for making unauthorized eye contact, but what is that compared to the horror (the horror!) of getting aced out of a sweet parking spot at the jiggling jug joint?

I'm sure one of the Fox folk will be along to explain it to the slow coaches.

[MosheFeingold]

37. They are fighting over the I-35 meth trade n/t

[guillaumeb]

40. But when they fight, or when Cliven Bundy engages in near-insurrection,

the police are far more tolerant of guns and attitudes.

[hack89]

45. The cops just fucking shot a bunch of them

You have a strange definition of tolerant.

[guillaumeb]

47. I also talked about Cliven Bundy.

what of him? Would a group of heavily armed Black Panthers have been allowed to face off the government?

[hack89]

53. Hard to say

I have no problem with how the Bundy situation was handled. A massacre was in no one's best interest. As for the Black Panthers, it would depend on what they were doing. The Huey Newton gun club had no problems marching while heavily armed so I don't automatically assume a shoot out is going to happen.

[MosheFeingold]

54. I am not sure how Bundy is relevant here

Not that I disagree with you re; Bundy being an odd situation from top to bottom.

I think that Bundy hands-off approach had more to do with the Branch Davidian fiasco and lessons learned there than anything.

[MosheFeingold]

46. Looks like the cops took this pretty seriously to me.

Basically everyone there got arrested and a fair number were apparently shot by cops.

I didn't see 170 people arrested on felony charges/RICO and ~8 dead (apparently 4-5 by cop) in Fergeson.

I also don't think calling this group white is particularly correct. I've been looking at pictures of both Bandidos and Cossacks.

They seem to be equal opportunity criminal organizations.

[guillaumeb]

48. see my reply #47 eom

[BumRushDaShow]

60. The protestors in Ferguson

where not shooting other people, or attacking people with clubs, chains, knives, and brass knuckles.

[guillaumeb]

39. "Unauthorized eye contact" is an interesting phrase.

After the 2012 rioting in Paris, it was said by many Algerians that the Parisian police had the habit of ordering Algerians to keep their eyes down. Apparently Algerians are not worthy of making eye contact with white Europeans.

[7962]

107. If that was true, there would be lots of protestors in the streets

all claiming violated rights, police abuse, murder, etc.
But there are NO protests because everyone knows these thugs got what they deserved.
Everyone is looking for some big back story or underlying explanation or whatever. Its all bullshit. There was a big shootout with a bunch of bad guys and they got put down by the cops. It happened ONCE.

[True Blue Door]

44. If they were black, none of the hundreds would have been allowed to leave the scene alive.

And then Texas would have decided it wants gun control after all.

That is, if hundreds of "menacing-looking" black people were allowed to gather together in the first place.

[Eleanors38]

58. Ha! Google Huey P. Newton Gun Club.

I assume you are being sarcastic.

[True Blue Door]

62. That's a regular organization, not a sudden gathering in public.

Unless you're belittling how police react to armed black men.

[Eleanors38]

65. Ain't no gun laws will be repealed. What do you think of the Newton Gun Club?

[True Blue Door]

67. Don't hear much about it.

And if it pulled something like this, it and all of its associates would be mowed down in the street by police.

The media would be full of propaganda about "black radicalism" even if their ideals were identical to the NRA's, just with black faces.

[Eleanors38]

79. Since it hasn't happened as you described, I don't know...

There is a long history of pogroms against blacks in this country. I think the "organized" invasions of black communities a la Atlanta, Tulsa, Rosewood have largely died out due to increasing armed resistance, and increased revulsion by the community at-large. The service of the Newton Club is to remind the nation and law enforcement that sheet-wearing blow outs will be met with the kind of resistance Mr. Carrier exhibited in that latter community. Maybe there will be a long-term effect in lessening the frequency of "picking off resisting" suspects when found alone.

[BumRushDaShow]

68. If John Crawford was offed by the police for holding an air rifle in a Walmart

in Dayton, OH, that he was considering purchasing while walking around the store talking on a cell phone - http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/cops-shoot-and-kill-man-holding-toy-gun-walmart

then anyone black with the real thing is toast.

[Eleanors38]

74. "Anyone black with the real thing is toast." Hasn't happened with the Newton Club....

There is narrative doctrine here at DU which says that if armed black people openly carry in the streets like white folks do, then

1) They will be shot down; or

2) Gun control laws will ensue.

Ain't happened. If it does, then All of us are in big trouble.

I note that the Newton Club and the gangs in Texas are all established, on-going organizations, though hardly equivalent. The reason the cops don't shoot at the Club is because they have strength in numbers and they are law-abiding. Probably the reason Crawford was killed was because the cops were racist in their profiling, and killed him in violation of the law. And because he was alone. Subsequent to Crawford's death, both blacks and whites protested his killing; some were openly armed. From time-to-time, the "Gungeon" reports on cops mistreating, abusing and arresting lawful carriers (even those with concealed guns!), and the successful lawsuits and firings which come from these incidents. Most of these LEO victims are white.

I don't buy-in to the Newton Club's main philosophies, but their marches are making a point: Don't screw with us. We have numbers, and we have rights. Maybe there will be a reduction in abuse and killings as a result. I hope so.

[BumRushDaShow]

77. It depends on what part of the country you are in

Crawford was in Dayton, OH.

Poor little 12-year old Tamir Rice of Cleveland, OH was holding a toy gun and learned his lesson very quickly (along with his sister and rest of his family) -

(his family finally cremated him last week, some 6 months after this happened where the investigation has STILL not been completed).

The PTB does put us (AAs) in our place and we are in a period where that is happening. It's really no different from Emmitt Till being taught a lesson about "who is in charge".

[Eleanors38]

80. Well, the Newton Club's demos have been in that hot bed of liberal culture, Dallas.

I hear they did a demo at the state GOPer convention in Houston.

I have seen the horrible photos of Mr. Till. His mother was brave and beyond prescient in knowing what effect that would have on people.

[BumRushDaShow]

83. The gun thing is a recent problem

Post-slavery and during reconstruction and part of the Jim Crow era, many blacks, both rural and urban had some kind of gun or rifle - notably for hunting and/or self-defense. But then the "rules" changed in various regions of the country, where even a "toy" (like an old-fashioned cap gun or similar non-lethal gun-looking object) is assumed to be "real" and when sported by a black child, makes that black child "armed and dangerous" (like Tamir Rice) versus a real firearm like the Crickett, where when sported by a white child, does not automatically make the child "dangerous". It's "cute".



When I was little, I had a "pop-gun" rifle (with a little cork attached to a strng that was shoved into the top of the barrel of the little rifle). It was something like this -



If a little black child walked around with something like that today, "someone" would call the police and out will come the calvary to gun them down in the street. And as a note, my father and grandfather were hunters for sport (moose hunting in upstate PA) and I grew up with "Field and Stream" in the house.

[imnew]

84. If a little White kid did they would call also

Walking down the street with something that looks like a real gun isn't very bright

This is where parenting comes in.

A small child doesn't know any better.

[BumRushDaShow]

86. Have you read any stories of a white child shot

for walking around with a toy gun?

I mean how many times have people posted this sort of video of "perceptions"?

[BumRushDaShow]

117. As a follow-up, I just heard this early this morning

Daily Kos staff
ProfileDiaries (list)Stream
WED MAY 20, 2015 AT 01:35 PM PDT
Cleveland police charged 12-year-old Tamir Rice with 'aggravated menacing' and 'inducing panic'

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/20/1386356/-Cleveland-Police-charged-12-y-o-Tamir-Rice-w-the-crimes-of-aggravated-menacing-inducing-panic

He didn't have a snowball's chance in hell.

[Eleanors38]

118. It's curious, even with liberalized gun laws across the nation, a counter trend...

has developed: Zero tolerance of ANY gun symbolism. Just this morning, there is a flap over the Boy Scouts of America prohibiting play with any toy gun, including super-soakers and other waterguns. It seems to be part of the "Zero-tolerance" crap that has long-infested public schools, where disciplining, expulsion and suspension can be exacted on some kid fashioning a "gun" from clay, or drawing one with a crayon. No one wants to take responsibility, just enact some inflexible 0n/Off rule and you don't have to think about it anymore. The BSA and schools should be educating kids on the things these institutions fear the most. Instead we have inflexibility, which feeds into the worst kind of arbitrariness, up to and including death.

[BumRushDaShow]

119. Here in Philly, water guns have always been "illegal"

even when I was growing up, but they were sold just about everywhere anyway - but more commonly in the suburbs of the surrounding counties (and that also includes fireworks).

LOL - just found the ordinance too.... -

CHAPTER 10-800. SAFETY

§10-810. Weapons and Dangerous Devices.

(1) Discharging Firearms.[158] No person shall fire or discharge recklessly and without reasonable cause any rifle, gun, pistol, or other firearm.
(2) Water Pistols, Electric Canes, and Miniature Cannon.[159]

(a) No one shall sell or offer for sale water pistols, electric canes, miniature cannon, or similar articles.[160]

(b) No one shall use water pistols, electric canes, miniature cannon or similar articles in any street or public place.

(3) Spring Guns, Air Guns and Bows and Arrows.[161]

(a) No person shall sell, offer for sale at retail, or use, or possess with intent to use, any air gun, spring gun, or any implement not a firearm which forcefully impels a pellet of any kind.

(b) No person shall sell, or offer for sale, at retail, any bow and arrow, to any person under the age of twenty-one (21) years unless the seller first obtains written evidence of parental consent to the proposed purchase by the minor.[162]

(4) Switchblade Knives.[163] No person shall sell, offer for sale or carry any knife with a blade which is released by a spring mechanism including knives known as "switchblades."

(5) Incendiary Paper. No person shall manufacture, sell, offer for sale, carry or store any incendiary paper that has been chemically treated to vanish at the touch of a flame, including paper known as "flash paper."[164]

(6) Penalties. Whoever violates any provision of this Section or Section 10-821 shall, in addition to other penalties provided, forfeit the weapon, contraband, or dangerous device giving rise to the violation of such section.[165]

(7) Confiscation. Police officers shall seize and deliver into departmental custody any air gun, air pistol, spring gun, switch blade knife, incendiary paper, contraband weapons, accessories and/or ammunition or other implement which shall be used, discharged, possessed, offered for sale or carried in violation of Section 10-810 or Section 10-821.[166]

http://www.phila.gov/philacode/html/_data/title10/CHAPTER_10_800_SAFETY/10_810_Weapons_and_Dangerous_D.html

No one paid anyone any mind back in the '60s and '70s as I was growing up but I'm afraid about what would happen now... although so far, they tend to go after kids (or adults) opening up the fire hydrants in the summer (without getting one of those spray caps the fire department offers). I think in the above the "in any public place" for the water guns, seems to the loop hole of using one at home (backyard, driveway, etc) and it doesn't look like they would "confiscate" one.

[Eleanors38]

76. The gangs and the Club are both "regular" organizations, though completely different...

That Waco meeting was planned and known about in advance, esp. by law enforcement. The gangs fired on the police, and apparently were amply rewarded. Am I answering your question?

I have no problem with how LEO has reacted to armed black men and women as demonstrated by the Newton Club's several demonstrations; I do have a problem with how they treat black folks who aren't even armed. I don't think there is much debate about that here.

[ieoeja]

69. They got into a gun fight with cops!?!? n/t

[Eleanors38]

70. Nope. nt

[Puddy]

78. One common thing about these Thug biker gangs is they are CRAZY and will kill no matter who it is...

if that person is a threat to their gang. They don't mind going to prison and look at it as a badge of honor.

[Eleanors38]

81. They certainly shot at the cops, to ill effect for them.

[Township75]

91. Well, the sure seem to shoot better than non white gang members.

How many innocents were killed in the cross fire with this large a group? I thought it was zero.

[flying_fish]

108. Effective gun controll no one can argue with lol nt

[egduj]

100. aka NHL

[7962]

106. Well, its been all over the news every day since it happened.

And nobody thinks the police over reacted so why would there be a "national freakout"? The whole incident was over in less than 20 minutes
WHen was the last time there was a huge shootout involving hundreds of bikers?
If this happened all the time, there WOULD be a national freakout

[totodeinhere]

109. According to the pictures at this link some of them look dark skinned enough

to be African Americans. It's hard to say for sure.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/waco-biker-brawl-busted-bandidos-include-retired-san-antonio-detective-n362241

[kwassa]

113. Two that I can see.

Or about 1% of the total number of bikers arrested.

A larger number are Hispanic.

One of the arrested black men is a retired police detective from San Antonio with the most interesting beard style.

ww.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3090215/Retired-police-detective-arrested-Waco-shootout-fired-job-school-bus-driver-emerges-bikers-escape-toughest-charges-county-t-afford-prosecute-170-them.html

A retired San Antonio police detective has been fired from his job as a school bus driver after his arrest following a deadly shootout involving rival biker gangs at a Texas restaurant.

A spokesman for the Northside Independent School District in San Antonio said that 62-year-old Martin Lewis was terminated after district officials learned Wednesday of his arrest in Waco.

Spokesman Pascual Gonzalez said that Lewis had passed a background check when the district hired him in August 2014.

Lewis retired from the San Antonio Police Department in February 2004 after 32 years of service, most recently in the department's vice squad.

[Doctor_J]

110. Boy, this thread got completely hijacked

I read the subject line and thought it was going to be about the Waco massacre. Nope. Self-parodying spitting match over what Hispanic means.

DU - never at a loss for PC

[romanic]

114. All i got from this thread

Was an argument over what a "Hispanic" is and how its not technically a race. *mind boggled*

[BumRushDaShow]

116. Welcome to America.

What one "is" is not defined by you or by me, but is defined by the media, the lawmakers, and the law-enforcers, and can be "changed" on a whim by them. And once you are "defined" (labeled) by those parties, certain privileges or lack of privileges are automatically assigned to you, and the terminology used in news articles to describe your behavior is altered to fit their perceptions of you.

So this is called "vandalism" -



And this is called "looting" -



The difference? I think it's obvious. And when called out on this type of disparate description of criminal behavior, they may eventually (and reluctantly) respond by altering their response.

The "argument" that you see is not a personal argument of who "Hispanics" are. I know what they are (they are who they believe their are). It's what the media, lawmakers, and law-enforcers define them as and that impacts how they and others are described and treated.

[Cheese Sandwich]

115. Bandidos have a flashy website

http://www.bandidosmc.com/