Regarding TPP, if it passes: Do We The People have ANY recourse to prevent its implementation?

[AzDar]

Or are we just screwed six ways to Sunday (again)?

[cali]

1. no

[rock]

2. I'm going with screwed

[roguevalley]

47. burn down the country. we stopped a war, we can stop

this. the government has to fear us more than they love money.

[Hekate]

81. Seriously? When was the last time "we stopped a war"?

Vietnam? It went on a long time and there was a draft on. There's nothing quite like knowing it could be you or your son getting shipped off to focus public attention.

We certainly didn't manage to either prevent or stop BushCheney's lovely little oil wars.

[djean111]

3. Nope. Democracy will have been subverted.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

4. you have recourse, the same if you think police shooting black jaywalkers is over the line

[Autumn]

5. Seven ways to Sunday, we no longer get a day off. Other than contacting

the ones that are in congress and the senate before the vote I don't see how we people could stop it.

[sabrina 1]

6. No, once it passes the President, whoever that turns out to be will have had the powers

of Congress to legislate on Trade deals, passed over to him/her and there is nothing we can do about it for at least six years.

[MineralMan]

7. Now Hear This: "We the People" elect representatives in Congress

to do that stuff. We do, that is, if we bother to go out and vote.

The answer to your question is a resounding NO.

We live in a representative democratic republic. The people we elect are charged with making decisions like that. If you want more control, help turn out voters who believe as you do.

That is all.

[Autumn]

10. Most of us have been doing just that very thing for years, in my case over 40.

That is all.

[Romeo.lima333]

19. last election had the lowest turnout since the 40's so no most of us are not voting

but then i guess it depends on your definition of 'us' is

[Autumn]

20. Most of us here, since I'm posting on DU.

[Romeo.lima333]

23. well you left out the word 'here' and im not a mind reader

then there's this from a post farther down
If they're Democrats, then great! If not, I have no problem casting my vote for a third party or independent.

so maybe not as many (here) voted as you think. i guess technically they voted but i dont think voting independent is what was meant

[LanternWaste]

28. Inferring an obvious and simple intent can be difficult.

Inferring an obvious and simple intent can be difficult. Rationalizing it otherwise though, is both easy and a quick convenience...

[AgingAmerican]

72. Congress is excluded from the negotiations

nt

[MineralMan]

73. They get to vote yes or no on TPP.

That's the population's last chance to stop it. Once it passes, it won't be possible to vote it down. The SCOTUS might be able to negate it, but that's it.

[jwirr]

75. Sounds to me that a huge demonstration in DC when the vote us called is needed this time. I

know that we in MN have some influence on our leaders but not everyone does. I also like the suggestion someone here just suggested - a general strike.

[MineralMan]

78. I think Franken and Klobuchar will vote against it.

They have so far. As for a general strike, I don't think enough people care about this to make that happen. Truly I don't. We think about it here on DU, but it's not in the minds of the general public.

I suspect this is a done deal. Good or bad, I think it will be passed and go into effect. I'm sure it will have some good results, and some bad ones, just like every trade deal ever put together. But that's just my opinion.

[jwirr]

80. So do I. They both know what the Unions think about it and we are all contacting them when it is

time.

[AgingAmerican]

82. They are being excluded from the negotiations

And the Republican majority is ramming it through congress.

[MineralMan]

83. Another reason we need to GOTV and elect Democrats to Congress.

We failed to do that in 2010, 2012 and 2014.

When will we learn. Every election, I call for strong GOTV efforts and those posts either get ignored or ridiculed. We get who we elect, and that's the bottom line.

[Hekate]

85. See my post #84, MM.

I guess for me it boils down to trusting the character of the guy I voted for based on his character and background. Formulating and understanding TPP is way above my pay grade, like doing my own appendectomy would be. For my appendectomy I went to a good surgeon (or rather my limp form was dragged there by my husband) and for a political maneuver like ACA or TPP I want the best and brightest politician -- so I voted for him, and I trust him to do the best he can for us.

GOTV indeed.

[MineralMan]

86. Thanks, Hekate!

I will never understand the inability of people to get that electing Democrats, which is the goal of this website, is the best path to progressive government. So, I'll just keep doing my GOTV activism for every election and keep trying to convince people that it is what is needed.

We have Republican majorities in both houses of Congress. What on Earth do we expect to happen? When will we learn?

[AgingAmerican]

87. True, but having a president on our side would help too

nt

[truebrit71]

8. Nope. Well and truly fucked.

...

[BlueJazz]

9. In the short term...No. Not unless we were like the charactors in this book I'm reading.

(In their society, if the people hate laws that are passed (that hurt the poor) everybody refuses to go to work and fucks-up the whole system) pretty interesting read. It's from a guy in this skeptics group I belong in..

[jwirr]

74. Name of the book?

[BlueJazz]

88. He's writing it. His name is James Hanna. It's about 4/5 done.

[jwirr]

89. Good. This is a very important part of our history and we need to remember it now.

[JEB]

11. Buy a big vat of chinese vaseline.

[pa28]

12. If TPA passes we're leaving that entirely up to the Republicans.

Last edited Thu May 21, 2015, 03:30 PM - Edit history (1)

I keep hearing an argument along the lines of: 'nothing to worry about Congress will get to see TPP and the public will get to see it and they'll vote "no" if it's a bad agreement'.

Touble is they leave out the fact we have a Republican controlled congress and Wyden left no recourse for Democrats to stop the fast track process if the conditions laid out in the TPA bill are not met.

Transparency requirements, labor protections, environmental protections and enforcement are now at the mercy of Republicans subjective opinion. Remember, they didn't want these requirements in the bill in the first place and now we're leaving it up to them to make sure the final TPP draft meets our conditions.

If you read the TPA bill our recourse looks something like this. If you are a Congressman or Senator and you believe the required conditions have not been met you can address your complaint to the relevent committee chair.

Chairman Ryan at Ways and Means or Chairman Hatch at Senate Finance. They'll be sure to help you out.

[tridim]

24. Another fact: President Obama is a Democrat.

Passage is entirely up to him (and his veto pen), thankfully.

[Exilednight]

30. Until he leaves office. n/t

[TheKentuckian]

36. Pointless distinction, it is his deal. If he was against he wouldn't submit it in the first place.

By what convoluted rationale would anyone reasonably expect him to veto what he has pressed harder for than anything during his Presidency or at the least just as hard?

[Populist_Prole]

69. Exactly my reaction

What, he's going to try to torpedo it by.....passing it?

And it's not like he was half-heartedly selling it. Hell, the harshest snarkiest language I've ever heard him use to date was directed against not the obstructionist GOP, but against the progressive wing of his own damned party!

Bizarro world.

[truedelphi]

79. I gave up on the guy when he took no stand against the public option.

The man is to the far right of Mr Nixon, but most people in the USA are so skewed in their thinking, due to the lack of logic taught in our schools, and also the Corporate-CIA-controlled press and its relentless "pressing" on major issues.

I imagine if I had grown up circa 1980 to 1995, I too would probably think that Obama was heads above the Cheney/Bush etc, when actually he is just more stealth than they ever were.

[hifiguy]

13. Zero, Zip. El Zilcho.

Capitalism defeated communism. It is now about to defeat democracy.

[Maedhros]

14. The only recourse we have is to NOT VOTE FOR THE JERKS THAT PASSED IT.

Since we won't do that BECAUSE REPUBLICANS! , then no: we don't have any recourse.

[840high]

15. Vote independent.

[Maedhros]

16. I vote for the candidates that best represent my views.

If they're Democrats, then great! If not, I have no problem casting my vote for a third party or independent.

[Romeo.lima333]

21. people throwing their votes away is what gave us the tea-billies

[Exilednight]

32. Democrats running for office slightly right of center is what gives us tea party reps. If they would

Stop chasing republican votes, they would more than likely win.

When my choice is right wing, or far right wing, I'm going indy.

[840high]

38. Dems throwing us away is what

made me independant

[Romeo.lima333]

62. yeah how's that going for you? you get any of your candidates elected?

of course not all you youve done was help produce the problems we have now. if you feel so "thrown away" by dems why are you here?

[840high]

67. I'm here to help elect Sanders.

[erronis]

34. Where possible don't use the capitalists' system

Starve them of their lifeblood - your lifeblood.

I don't know how many people could work "off-grid". I certainly couldn't have easily in my younger years, perhaps better now.

What happens if a large percentage of US (just talking about the USofA) were to get into a barter system, where we could do our banking based on real trust, where our activities where not able to be monitored down to the nickels we spend?

They've crammed this down our throats and it has been mainly acceptable until 10-20 years ago. Now we are like a fish that has grabbed hold of that hook and we can't get off.

[City Lights]

18. We screwed.

Six ways to Sunday. :-*

[AZ Progressive]

22. A constitutionality challenge

Reid v Covert

The supreme court has ruled before that treaties don't trump the constitution.

“There is nothing in this language which intimates that treaties and laws enacted pursuant to them do not have to comply with the provisions of the Constitution.”

[Doctor_J]

25. The current court is as corporate friendly and corrupt as any in history

So that is a dead end

[AZ Progressive]

26. If a Democrat doesn't get into the White House in 2016, yes

Unless Ruth Bader Ginsburg is able to stay alive another 8 years after...

[PeteSelman]

27. Nope. Just have to eat the shit sandwich again.

Isn't it great?

[Elwood P Dowd]

29. Get ready to bend over and grease up for the next six years.

First Citizens United and now this. The final nails are being driven into the coffin. The Oligarchy, what George H. W. Bush called The New World Order, has arrived.

[AZ Progressive]

31. It's inevitable...

So what does that mean for you?

[HereSince1628]

33. The fast-track authority last 6 years...the damage will last at least a generation

Look at how 'fixing NAFTA' has worked out. It's brought us yet another seemingly worse (mostly because it's bigger, but also because it's now becoming a significant reduction in degress of sovereign freedom) neoliberal procorporate trade agreement.

[Jack Rabbit]

35. I've suggested a mass campaign of civil disobedience

I don;t just mean symbolically sitting in and getting arrested in an attempt over burden the justice system, although that would be part of it, too. I mean a serious attempt to overthrow the oligarchy.

Don't give up on the political process, either. The way I see it, it never does any harm to vote. However, the priority should be to elect candidates sworn to defy the TPP and undermine it. Defund it's enforcement. Laws should be passed at all levels of government that refuse to pay fines imposed the Investor-State Dispute Settlement's kangaroo court of corporate shysters. In addition, boycott any corporation that even thinks out loud about taking a case to ISDS.

Support new international agreements made directly by citizens that declare a nation's natural resources to be the public property of the people of that nation. Sorry, Mr. Nestles, there is a right to public access to water; you do not and cannot own it.

Don't pay fines imposed by ALEC-written legislation for putting solar panels on your house. Don't join the armed services. Sooner or later, the oligarch will demand of their stooges occupying our government will order the troops into a war for oil. We don't need oil or coal and securing it for the benefit or corporate profits isn't worth one drop of blood. We need wind and solar energy.

If that isn't enough, then we can resort to general strikes (which have been against federal law since 1947) and tax strikes. There is no reason we should pay taxes to give tax breaks to corporations that bribe our politicians, support wars that secure oil for the profit of unneeded and unwanted industries that are even now on life-support, get funneled into from our pockets to corporate coffers.

These actions are to be taken against the oligarchs and not politicians. The politicians will not listen to the oligarchs once we have stripped them of what the Supreme Shysters mistakenly call their free speech.

What is the rationale for taking such action? Very simple: democracy is broken and Congress cannot any longer be considered a part of a popular government. Our Congressmen are bribed. There is no distinction between a large campaign contribution and a bribe, contrary to what the Supreme Shysters said in Citizens United. There is no alternative for any candidate for any office but to bargain away his loyalty to corporation and promise to do things their way against the public interest. If there is no government of, by and for the people, then any law passed by bought-and-paid-for corporate stooges is no law at all. No democracy, no law and order.

[socialist_n_TN]

37. Well, my off the cuff answer was a socialist revolution......

which would be real similar to what you're talking about here. We might differ in that these actions will have to be guided by an overall strategy led by a REAL workers' political party that does more than just run in elections every two years. Then again, we might not differ either.

The problem with an undirected people's civil disobedience campaign that's NOT led by some sort of a vanguard party is that it will be facing an entrenched system, both politically and economically, that WILL be led by a cadre of capitalists that will have an agenda to thwart any of these measures. Without an equally disciplined opponent, organized from the bottom up, but with a real leadership, the capitalists will win.

[Jack Rabbit]

39. There really needs to be some kind of organization leading the movement.

That does not have to be a political party. In America, we are quite used to having more specialized organization that aren't responsible for running candidates in elections leading this kind of social movement. The civil rights movement was successful in its immediate goal of ending Jim Crow laws and de jure segregation being led by a coalition made up of the SCLC, SNCC, CORE, the NAACP and other organizations. When the movement really got going, it was the Democratic Party that picked up on running black candidates for public offices. I see this sort of thing evolving in much the same way.

Google "TPP we will not obey" and you will find that there are a plethora of grass roots organizations out there that have the potential of coalescing into a national movement.

[socialist_n_TN]

41. Without the seizure of political power by the proletariat.......

any immediate gains led by this type of coalition won't last. That's not just me saying that, it's history. Every gain that's ever been made in this type of anarchistic fashion has been or is in the process of being, rolled back. Even the vaunted civil rights struggle was only partially successful in integrating black Americans into the system. That's why you need a workers' party that can take control over the reins of government and negate and repudiate the treaty all-together. Otherwise, even if you delay the implementation of some of the provisions, the law is still on the books awaiting implementation at some later date when things "settle down".

The seizure of political power by a workers' party is the only way if this thing becomes law. And actually, it WILL become law because the big bourgeoisie WANTS it to become law. Even if it's stopped temporarily, it'll be brought up again until they get it enacted. Or until they're completely neutered by the working class.

[Jack Rabbit]

45. What kind of workers' party do you propose?

I can think of some than did more harm than good.

Didn't we have this discussion a while back with some other poster name flying_pig or pige_eye or something like that?

[socialist_n_TN]

64. blind pig. Yeah we probably did. Some of us more fundamentalist Bolsheviks.....

don't hold out a lot of hope in anarchistic or electoral methods for changing the system. And nothing that's happened in the last five years or so has changed my mind about it.

Interesting about the pig. He was a Stalinist and I'm a Trotskyist, but that's an argument that we both agreed pretty consistently on.

And I'd like to see a revolutionary workers' party of course.

[aspirant]

65. Give me a time frame

on establishing a Workers Party seizing political power?

[socialist_n_TN]

68. I have no fucking idea. It takes the time it takes and depends..........

on a lot of factors. All you can do is advocate for it. IF the situation gets into the scenario painted out above, then that means the revolutionary consciousness of the masses has taken a quantum leap over where it is now and that means that the receptiveness should be there for a workers party, more or less.

I hope no one mistakes what I've been saying as advising to not do anything UNTIL there's a workers' party in place. Because that's not what I'm saying. As I said in this post, a militant struggle against the implementation of the provisions of the TPP should bring more of the masses of workers into the struggle FOR a workers party. Or at least increase their receptivity to the idea. It all works together to bring on a revolutionary or pre-revolutionary situation which would increase the likelihood of a workers' government which could permanently prevent the implementation of the provisions.

Oh, and did I mention it has to be international too? Yeah, we're not talking about easy or even quick. But it's got to start with the acknowledgement that voting alone won't get it done. The way the electoral system is set up in bourgeois democracy, a minority of capitalists and their bought and paid for toadies in BOTH political parties can indefinitely delay any electoral reforms desired by the majority for a long time and even forever.

[aspirant]

70. Long time or even forever" is a no go

As things are going now we don't have the luxury of a "long time."

The unions are going international and have no enforcement mechanisms in dictatorships or even corrupted quasi-Democratic countries. Unchecked murders in Central and South America speak volumes. A global party is beyond a long time.

What happens to a workers party when robots and computers make-up 80% of the workforce? A People's Party would be much more long lasting.

We need more of a Jack Rabbit approach than a theoretical approach.

[mmonk]

40. Sue on constitutional grounds.

Appears to be a treaty without the 2/3rd's Senate vote (unless I'm mistaken).

[MohRokTah]

63. TPP is not a treaty.

It is a trade agreement and as such carries less legal weight than a treaty.

[aspirant]

66. Sue on constitutional grounds,

usurping our Judicial Sovereignty

[Cheese Sandwich]

42. We could riot.

Just kidding. We could nonviolently disrupt.

[F4lconF16]

52. Riots will come in time.

Unfortunately disruption is not well tolerated by the state, and with the economic and political situation we are in right now--the worker's economy is being gutted, fear and hatred are getting whipped into fire, and a planetary ecosystem is destablizing--they will be inevitable.

Trick is, how many will stand with the rioters when that happens, and how many will stand with the state? We are just beginning to find out yet again.

[yallerdawg]

43. Stop buying imports.

Buy "Made in USA" products.

Right?

[magical thyme]

44. 1,000 people in Japan are suing their government over it

I think it's time to think in terms of lawsuits. Class action suits against specific congress people for not doing their jobs.

[Blue_Tires]

46. You can always find some like-minded people and go to war

good luck with that...

[ucrdem]

48. Yes, you can contact your rep and senators. Their job is to represent you in Congress.

Sounds too simple but that's really how it works, and they are likely to pay special attention to their constituents on wedge issues.

[ucrdem]

49. ^^ p.s. the purpose of TPA is to give you at least 60 days to do this. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

53. LOL. I can think of 13 who couldn't give a FLYING FUCK about what their constituents think.

And as far as I'm concerned, Feinstein is a flat-out fucking LIAR.

Kabuki theater anyone?

[ucrdem]

54. Feinstein is one of my Senators and on this vote she represented my views.

TPA is not TPP and anyone who has been paying attention to the legislation and not the sideshow knows that.

[cherokeeprogressive]

55. No shit... well she's one of MY Senators too, and she can take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut.

And I know what fucking TPA is Thank You Very Much. Everything else aside, it's a fucking guarantee that what republicans want, republicans get... and they're fucking slobbering like Pavlov's dogs at the thought of fucking American workers with TPP and that Barack Obama is a willing participant.

I thank God every fucking day that in 3-4 years (maybe less) I'll voluntarily join the ranks of the gainfully unemployed, because by that time the people who need the jobs most will be well and truly fucked.

[ucrdem]

56. Okay the vote didn't go as you'd hoped. That's democracy. It's not the end of the world

and TPP if it ever launches won't be either. I imagine you'll get some benefit from it whether you're still working or not. That's why Democrats normally support trade treaties.

[cherokeeprogressive]

57. TPP has unanimous republican support in the Senate.

That speaks volumes to me.

[ucrdem]

58. It's bipartisan legislation. The fact that most Dems skedaddled when the going got tough

also speaks volumes.

[cherokeeprogressive]

59. Why do I get the feeling that to you, "skedaddled" = nothing more than "deserted President Obama"?

[ucrdem]

60. They did, and it's a disgrace, but no surprise.

You'd think one or two of them would have the fortitude to at least swat down some of the outrageous stuff but I suppose it would be pointless anyway as they know the media wouldn't touch it unless there was a breath of scandal in it. No, I have no expectations that Dem reps or Senators will lift a finger to help with the heavy lifting if it's not in their own interest and I mostly don't hold it against them as they have their own battles to fight. But yeah they let him twist in the wind for months. Kind of sickening.

[cherokeeprogressive]

61. Got it.

[99Forever]

50. Perhaps the time will be at hand.

¡Viva la Revolución!

[hunter]

51. I automatically boycott everything but a few products, mostly food.

Not good for the world's workers.

We humans work too much in ways that destroy our earth's natural environment.

[liberal_at_heart]

71. The only recourse we have is to actually vote these people out of office. We have given into this

idea that we must vote for our party because the other party is so much more evil. They know this. They know they can do anything they want and no one will vote them out of office. It is time to show them they are wrong.

[orpupilofnature57]

77. The only Bipartisanship that doesn't kill us now is between

Voters .

[orpupilofnature57]

76. This is more deadly then anyone can imagine, Terror we'll pay for .

[Hekate]

84. I know this is not going to be a popular opinion here, but I still trust Obama's character & record

Every step of the way he has done or tried to do what he said he would, in the face of opposition from the GOP/ RW that has been like nothing in my lifetime. His record of achievements has been presented here over and over, so I will not belabor that.

DU, imo, has become a repository not of knowledge-sharing but of knee-jerk reactions based on anger and fear, and which grew out of past GOP administrations. The language used, shockingly, is very often straight out of the playbook written by Newt Gingrich and implemented by Karl Rove. If you (plural) can't see that, I am sorry for your blindness, and if you (plural) can't perceive how incredibly destructive those tactics are to both our democracy and the Democratic Party, then all I can do walk away in disgust.

And so it is with the TPP. The way I read Obama's statements on it, he believes what he is saying -- in other words, he is not lying. Is he being deceived by himself or others? Always possible, but I don't think so. He is not a "used car salesman," as as been proven again and again.

When I reference Obama's character, I mean my observations of his behavior in office. He is incredibly intelligent, focused, and knowledgable. He said he wanted to do a "pivot to Asia," and I don't understand why people find that so damn threatening. It's reality. China is outpacing Europe, will soon outpace the U.S., and has territorial ambitions.

Do you want to spend the rest of your existence whinging about the "Yellow Peril that ate your jobs" or do you want the U.S. to throw its weight behind a treaty or trade agreement that will write new rules cooperatively with our allies (like Japan) and help restrain China? Do you want Barack Obama to have a hand in this treaty, or do you want to pretend that if you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears nothing bad will happen?

I know what my answer is. We have the great good fortune to have a POTUS who actually knows Asia, who spent part of his childhood in Asia, who has family ties to Asia. He knows what he's looking at. He also is an American and loves this country and wants the best for it if he can achieve it. So far, he has done his damnedest for us. Why would he "betray" us now? The answer is: he wouldn't, and he's not.