Hillary was liberal, Hillary IS Liberal

[MaggieD]

I'm pleased to bring some actual facts. Enjoy.

"Clinton was one of the most liberal members during her time in the Senate. According to an analysis of roll call votes by Voteview, Clinton’s record was more liberal than 70 percent of Democrats in her final term in the Senate. She was more liberal than 85 percent of all members. Her 2008 rival in the Democratic presidential primary, Barack Obama, was nearby with a record more liberal than 82 percent of all members — he was not more liberal than Clinton.

Clinton also has a history of very liberal public statements. Clinton rates as a “hard core liberal” per the OnTheIssues.org scale. She is as liberal as Elizabeth Warren and barely more moderate than Bernie Sanders. And while Obama is also a “hard core liberal,” Clinton again was rated as more liberal than Obama.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/hillary-clinton-was-liberal-hillary-clinton-is-liberal/

[hrmjustin]

1. K&R!

[cascadiance]

2. "Being liberal" needs more specifics on what is measured. As an example Hillary is NOT liberal...

... on this issue!

[MaggieD]

15. Her votes

[cascadiance]

34. I guess it is still too hard for you to deal with specific "liberal" issues...

If you cherry pick social issues, then yes she will appear liberal. If you say well, she's liberal because she either sides with Obama or is unclear on her stance on the TPP, then I'm sorry that that system of measurement is *doctored* to appear liberal when it isn't.

Schumer, who also has worked heavily to pass expansion of H-1B visa limits was also by one poll rated the most "liberal" senator, just because he voted with a majority a large number of times, not so much on specific issues like this.

[MaggieD]

55. They've been tallied and outlined in the article.

You can read it if you want. Or not. Clearly.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

155. I agree, tho more applicable to Hillary would be WAS an triangulater, IS a triangulater and WILL ALWAYS BE a triangulater...

We need a true progressive who will stand up and be a leader for the people of Main Street without always having her finger in the air to measure which way the "political winds" are blowin.

[seabeyond]

161. we NEED a democrat. this is where populist is skewed batshit crazy. we NEED a democrat. we

prefer one that will address middle class decline for the health of our nation. will be a win win win with a healthy middle class.

but. make no mistake. 2016. we NEED a democrat to win presidency.

[Scootaloo]

88. Here's the thing about these "vote tallies"

A Liberal who votes against a spending bill because of defense pork glued to it in committee, will have that vote tallied as "conservative." A right-wing Republican who votes for the same bill for the same reason will likewise have that vote counted as "liberal."

This sort of thing only examines a very narrow band of potential.

Maybe you could use clinton's actual votes rather than her liberal / conservative tally?

[Jackpine Radical]

154. The methodology of that study was rather goofy.

There was no actual operational definition of "liberal." It is ludicrous to try to place things as widely divergent as baling out the banks (apparently the "liberal" position because "liberals" like Schumer also voted for it), LGBT issues, minimum wage, defense spending, etc. all together. The measure is not so much of whether a politician is liberal or not, as it is a measure of whether they "run with the pack."

On the face of it, any scale that can't distinguish between Bernie & Hillary has gotta be pretty crazy. It doesn't even pass a face validity "test."

[Scootaloo]

202. Yup. Which is why I say to use the actual votes

I mean it can't hurt to be specific.

I mean unless the vote is authorizing the Bush administration to invade a country illegally, creating over a decade of carnage, with over a million needlessly dead.

That one might sting a little, I guess.

[MFrohike]

3. Cool

Not much in there on economic policy and financial regulation, but I guess that stuff is non-political now.

[cui bono]

117. Well according to a lot of people on DU, economics doesn't matter, only social justice matters.

But I can see that it's just a ploy to make their candidate of choice seem like the one to support since they can discount her being a corporate candidate.

[djean111]

4. I do think stuff like this might - maybe - be useful if Hillary wins the nomination

and her supporters have to start on the lesser evil thing. I daresay there is nothing you can spout about Hillary that we have not heard before - with darling charts! - or that will actually win converts from other supported candidates. Just sayin'.

[seabeyond]

7. "lesser evil thing" just intellectually stupid and dishonest. if one needs to argue that, then

another should be able to question their democratic position

[cui bono]

119. Not true at all.

You can question all you like but that doesn't mean it is warranted or justified.

If a Dem is not happy with either the Dem or Con candidate and feels they are choosing between the lesser of two evils that just means both parties have moved too far right for their taste. And frankly, that is exactly what has happened. Obama is a centrist and the Cons are all extreme right wing. Hillary is a centrist as well. If she gets the nom it will absolutely be a vote for the lesser of two evils. She is too tied to big money and too much of a hawk.

Give us someone we can get excited about, someone actually on the left of the spectrum like the old Dems and you won't have to hear that expression.

[djean111]

138. When much of Hillary criticism is countered with "SAY HELLO TO PRESIDENT CRUZ", I would have to

argue that that is intellectually stupid and dishonest. I have come to question the Democratic Party's position, not my own Democratic position.

[seabeyond]

145. when equating repug the same as clinton, i question your democratic position, yes.

i recognize you are not questioning it.

but i most certainly am, when you are willing to propagate clinton is an evil nigh equal to repugs.

you are the one doing the comparing, not i, or counter to clinton criticism.

it is a dishonest conversation to suggest, she is just shy of a cruz.

[jeff47]

160. Then stop using the lesser evil argument.

If you base all your arguments around "The Republican is worse", you are making a "lesser evil" argument. Even if you personally believe Clinton is good.

If you want to argue Clinton is good, argue that Clinton is good without contrasting her to the Republicans. "Good" stands on its own and doesn't need the contrast.

If you want to keep contrasting her with Republicans, then you should stop complaining about lesser evil arguments since you are making a lesser evil argument.

[seabeyond]

163. what a convoluted argument. and a whole lot of wtf. we need a dem... 2016. that is the argument

simple, at best

[jeff47]

167. Then you're arguing for Bernie or O'Malley or Clinton. Not just Clinton.

Given the electoral landscape in 2016 (Dem needs 1 swing state, Rep needs all 10 plus turn a "blue" state), any of them can win.

[seabeyond]

172. "Then you're arguing for Bernie or O'Malley or Clinton." correct. as i have said, repeatedly.

only to have the populist on du tell me....

nu uh

[hrmjustin]

8. Hillary is my first choice.

No lesser of the two evils for me.

[Fuddnik]

115. Not lesser enough for me.

[hrmjustin]

143. Your choice.

[840high]

10. No lesser evil voting for me. EVER again.

[seabeyond]

14. are you another, in this now often heard meme, not voting clinton if she wins?

[840high]

19. i'll write in Bernie's name.

[seabeyond]

20. mmmm, so this is a fuck you, to all the people whose lives matter with this election.

[840high]

22. This is a fuck you to the Dems

who don't care about us.

[seabeyond]

23. and you in turn, say fuck you to the women and girls whose lives are at stake.

i get it. you take precedent over lives.

[840high]

28. sorry - save your breath - i want to vote

with joy again. Bernie is the man. ' nite

[seabeyond]

30. save my breathe to appease your want? no. not when lives matter. you feel your little sec flash of

joy while you help to create a hell for a whole lot of people.

special.

[jeff47]

35. Then maybe the Democrats should produce a better candidate

instead of insisting everyone must line up for Humphrey again.

[seabeyond]

37. awfully cavalier with our women and girls lives. and you all are the good guys?

[ConservativeDemocrat]

111. They're purity trolls...

...so don't worry about them, or let yourself be trolled. They represent only the thinnest fringe of the anti-democratic left. They don't count for anyone or anything other than writing screeds on a handful of websites.

Literally a single two hour shift in a phone bank in the 2016 fall will gain more votes than you'll lose from all these screaming political grievance junkies. And that's if Hillary even needs it, which at this point doesn't seem likely.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[LeftOfWest]

114. What are you "Conservative" about?

And still a Democrat?

I will keep asking SPECIFICALLY WHAT are YOU CONSERVATIVE about?????

And WHY?

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/7-things-people-who-say-theyre-fiscally-conservative-socially-liberal-dont

[ConservativeDemocrat]

174. I've explained this before, but...

...I will do so again. And try to explain my positions to the liberals in my party.

* I'm pro-second amendment. City people just don't understand rural poverty. There are people whose food over the winter depends significantly on what tags they're able to get.

* I'm pro-religion. Yes, there are jackasses who make a mockery of Jesus's teachings, but there is not a more effective anti-poverty culture anywhere in the US than our churches.

* I'm pro-business. Specifically, small business. Furthermore, I've seen state regulators, inspectors, and licensing officials act like tin-pot dictators. There is a reason why bribery is so common at that level of government: there is so little oversight, so few avenues for recourse. The left thinks cops are bad? Heh.

* I'm pro-Israel. About half of the Palestinians appear to be only interested in destruction of Israel; and are unwilling to offer peace, ever. Land for peace can't work if peace is never offered.

* I'm pro-military. It's not that the military can't be misused, but the U.S. has brought a remarkable amount of peace around the world due to its dominant position. It's worth every penny.

* I'm pro-American. Negative nationalism is not for me. The United States makes mistakes, but it is beyond a doubt a major force for good in the world.

But no, I'm not a Republican.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Violet_Crumble]

231. Guns, God & Israel...

I always thought Democrats were liberal and Republicans were conservative and never the twain shall meet. Wouldn't there be people out there with the same views as yrs who identify as Republicans? Not that I think all those stances of yrs are ones that confined to American right-wingers. I've seen a fair bit of anti-Palestinian, pro-militarist, jingoistic nationalist and big business supporters at DU over the years...

[ConservativeDemocrat]

239. Again, something I have said before...

(This comes straight from my journal.)

There are more Conservative Democrats in the party than the "Very Liberal" Democrats that the Democratic Underground represents.

And you are correct that there are Republicans who share my viewpoints on a lot of things. They keep hoping that their party is going to recover from its racism, xenophobia, cheering for brutality, hatred of the poor, etc., etc. And I keep telling them that it's never going to happen. I've had fair success at bringing these people over, at least on some critical votes.

But if you want to see the true face of the teabagger right, come on over to the Discussionist. It will open your eyes.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[jeff47]

162. No, the people insisting we repeat our loss of 1968 are the cavalier ones

We already know "line up behind the chosen one" didn't work. It massively depressed turnout and Humphrey lost. It got us Nixon.

You're using the exact same argument as 1968. You already have proof it doesn't work. Yet you're willing to risk "our women and girls lives" for a strategy you know has failed.

If Clinton is good, you don't need to bring up the Republicans. "Good" can stand on its own.

If you have to bring up the Republicans in order to make your argument, then you don't have a good candidate. She can still win, but you aren't arguing she's good, you are arguing the Republicans are worse. "Worse" does not make her good.

[seabeyond]

165. our girls and women are dying. it will get worse. they are being inPRISONED because of

their body. that will get worse.

our black young men are being shot in the back by our police force.

so ya.

cavalier.

tell me so much more about your bitterness to what you have not gotten.

give me your argument on why.... your $ proceeds the lives of our girls, women, young black men. the rights. basic fuckin in all of our faces, fuckin HUMAN rights for our gay community

you tell me.... about your fuckin needs. and how i am the issue. really, being so cavalier.

[jeff47]

168. If you are so concerned about that issue, why repeat what you already know failed?

Heck, maybe Clinton could nominate Lieberman as her VP and ride in a tank too.

If winning is so important, we should take pains to avoid what we know causes us to lose. "You have to line up behind Humphrey" lost.

[seabeyond]

173. i KNOW obama's supreme court picks. i do not see a fail. that you do, shows you are not even

looking. do you not think that is more of a concern?

[840high]

224. Thank you.

[840high]

277. Good post.

[cui bono]

259. Do you really believe that Hillary is the only Dem candidate that cares about women and girls' lives

???????

Gotta wonder why you're a Dem if you have so little faith in the party's members.

[840high]

275. Unlike you I care about all lives - not

just "our" lives.

[seabeyond]

278. so. you turn your back on the lives of women and girls, and claim the high road.

[treestar]

253. The Democrats choose who they want

Are you saying the Democrats should pick a candidate for others, for non Democrats?

[cui bono]

120. If lives matter so much, make sure the Dems get a candidate people can get excited about.

A corporate candidate is not that.

[seabeyond]

147. IF lives matter so much? so, if you do not get one you want, then you can walk from those lives?

you cant take any greater responsibility than you were not "excited" enough to save lives?

[cui bono]

179. I'm not going to vote for someone who isn't fighting for the 99%, who supports the banksters

and big business. Do you think banksters and big business care about lives?

And as I already said, my state is a healthy blue state so my not voting won't matter. I can afford to make my statement. You have forgotten that part of the equation.

The Dem Party used to stand for the working people of America. Get me a candidate that does that and I will vote for that person. Party ideals matter. Why should I vote for moderate Republican policy just because the person has a 'D' after their name? I won't do it. I didn't vote for Reagan either. Unfortunately I voted for moderate Republican police 4 times in my life and I don't plan on doing so any more.

If you really want to save lives you will vote for someone who is actually fighting for those lives, not selling them down the river with policies that benefit the 1%. But as long as people keep voting out of fear and lowering the standards they hold the Dem leadership to, they will continue to slide to the right towards big money.

[NYC Liberal]

256. Hillary does stand for working people.

Strongly Favors topic 11:
Higher taxes on the wealthy
(-5 points on Economic scale)

Rescind tax cuts for those making more than $250,000 a year: Strongly Favors topic 11
Pay down debt & cut taxes within balanced budget: Favors topic 11
GOP tax plan would hurt New York’s students: Favors topic 11
Rated 21% by NTU, indicating a "Big Spender" on tax votes: Strongly Favors topic 11
Rated 80% by the CTJ, indicating support of progressive taxation: Strongly Favors topic 11
NO on raising the Death Tax exemption to $5M from $1M: Strongly Favors topic 11
NO on allowing AMT reduction without budget offset: Favors topic 11
YES on reducing marriage penalty instead of cutting top tax rates: Favors topic 11
YES on spending $448B of tax cut on education & debt reduction: Favors topic 11
NO on $350 billion in tax breaks over 11 years: Strongly Favors topic 11
YES on extending the tax cuts on capital gains and dividends: Strongly Opposes topic 11
YES on $47B for military by repealing capital gains tax cut: Favors topic 11
YES on retaining reduced taxes on capital gains & dividends: Strongly Opposes topic 11
NO on permanently repealing the `death tax`: Strongly Favors topic 11
NO on supporting permanence of estate tax cuts: Strongly Favors topic 11
NO on raising estate tax exemption to $5 million: Strongly Favors topic 11
NO on repealing the Alternative Minimum Tax: Strongly Favors topic 11

Strongly Favors topic 2:
Legally require hiring women & minorities
(-5 points on Economic scale)

Some world leaders are still misogynistic: Favors topic 2
Some world leaders are still misogynistic: Favors topic 2
We’ve come a long way on race, but we have a long way to go: Strongly Favors topic 2
Apologize for slavery, but concentrate on civil rights now: Favors topic 2
Human rights are women’s rights: Neutral on topic 2
Women’s rights are human rights: Favors topic 2
OpEd: "18 million cracks" meant "lingering sexism": Strongly Favors topic 2
Equal pay is not yet equal: Strongly Favors topic 2
1988: Instituted gender diversity Report Card within ABA: Strongly Opposes topic 2
Argued with Bill Clinton about diluting affirmative action: Strongly Favors topic 2
Shift from group preferences to economic empowerment of all: Neutral on topic 2
Sponsored bill maintaining role of women in armed forces: Favors topic 2
Rated 96% by the NAACP, indicating a pro-affirmative-action stance: Strongly Favors topic 2
Recognize Juneteenth as historical end of slavery: Strongly Favors topic 2
Re-introduce the Equal Rights Amendment: Strongly Favors topic 2
Reinforce anti-discrimination and equal-pay requirements: Favors topic 2
Ban discriminatory compensation; allow 2 years to sue: Favors topic 2
Sponsored bill enforcing against gender pay discrimination: Strongly Favors topic 2

Reich was even more gladdened by Hillary's passionate condemnation of corporate-executive compensation—one of the Labor Secretary's favorite populist topics. "These are real issues, Bill," she said, pointing out that the average CEO of a big company "is now earning 200 times the average hourly wage. Twenty years ago the ratio was about forty times ... People all over this country are really upset about this." When Bill demurred, saying he couldn't be "out front" on such issues, Hillary said sharply, "Well, somebody in the administration ought to be making these arguments," turning to Reich. "I agree," replied Bill with a nod.

Let’s finally do something about the growing economic inequality that is tearing our country apart. The top 1% of our households hold 22% of our nation’s wealth. That is the highest concentration of wealth in a very small number of people since 1929. So let’s close that gap. Let’s start holding corporate America responsible, make them pay their fair share again. Enough with the corporate welfare. Enough with the golden parachutes. And enough with the tax incentives for companies to shift jobs overseas.

But according to accounts from other board members, Clinton was a thorn in the side of the company’s founder, Sam Walton, on the matter of promoting women, few of whom were in the ranks of managers or executives at the time. She also strongly advocated for more environmentally sound corporate practices. She made limited progress in both areas. In 2005 she returned a $5,000 contribution from Wal-Mart, citing “serious differences” with its “current” practices.

No salary increase for Congress until minimum wage increased. (Jul 2007)
Would accept minimum wage as president. (Jul 2007)
Stand up for unions; organize for fair wages. (Jun 2007)
Get tough with China and bring jobs back home. (Feb 2007)
Minimum wage increases haven’t kept up with Congress’ wages. (Dec 2006)
Passed 2 planks of 7-plank platform, “New Jobs for New York”. (Oct 2006)
Minimum wage should be tied to congressional salaries. (Jun 2006)
Pushed for extension of unemployment insurance. (Feb 2004)
The working poor deserve a living wage. (Oct 1999)
America can afford to raise the minimum wage. (Sep 1999)
Recently “we’re in it together” became “you’re on your own”. (Sep 1996)
Voted YES on extending unemployment benefits from 39 weeks to 59 weeks. (Nov 2008)
Voted NO on terminating legal challenges to English-only job rules. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on restricting employer interference in union organizing. (Jun 2007)
Voted YES on increasing minimum wage to $7.25. (Feb 2007)
Voted YES on raising the minimum wage to $7.25 rather than $6.25. (Mar 2005)
Voted NO on repealing Clinton's ergonomic rules on repetitive stress. (Mar 2001)
Protect overtime pay protections. (Jun 2003)
Rated 85% by the AFL-CIO, indicating a pro-union voting record. (Dec 2003)
Allow an Air Traffic Controller's Union. (Jan 2006)
Sponsored bill linking minimum wage to Congress' pay raises. (May 2006)
Extend unemployment compensation during recession. (Jan 2008)
Ban discriminatory compensation; allow 2 years to sue. (Jan 2009)
Sponsored bill enforcing against gender pay discrimination. (Jan 2009)

Well, I had said that for many years, that NAFTA and the way it’s been implemented has hurt a lot of American workers. In fact, I did a study in New York looking at the impact of NAFTA on business people, workers and farmers who couldn’t get their products into Canada despite NAFTA. So, clearly we have to have a broad reform in how we approach trade. NAFTA’s a piece of it, but it’s not the only piece of it. I believe in smart trade. Pro-American trade. Trade that has labor and environmental standards, that’s not a race to the bottom but tries to lift up not only American workers but also workers around the world. It’s important that we enforce the agreements we have. That’s why I’ve called for a trade prosecutor, to make sure that we do enforce them. The Bush administration haven’t been enforcing the trade agreements at all.

http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/hillary_clinton.htm

There are NO "moderate Republican policies." These are liberal policies and have been for a long, long time.

[cui bono]

263. Clinton is extremely similar to Obama and his policies are moderate Republican policies.

He said so himself.

Clinton voted for the IWR, that's not liberal and that's not fighting for the working people, that's making the working people fight.

She just appointed someone from Monsanto to a position in her campaign.

Sorry, that's just same old same old. We need to shake things up if we are going to get this country back on track.

[Thinkingabout]

279. K & R, really good post. Hillary has been advocating for Democrat platform issues for a long time.

It will be nice to have her as president where she will continue doing the same.

[840high]

225. Clinton won't save lives.

[seabeyond]

234. if we lose the surpreme court, we lose women and girls lives. that matters.

[cui bono]

257. We're not in the general election yet. That is not an issue in the primary.

[seabeyond]

265. i am talking to the people that state they will NOT vote clinton if she wins. i think i make that

clear

[cui bono]

266. I didn't think it was clear. What was clear is my saying I will not vote for her since my state is

easily blue.

I can afford to not vote for her.

[seabeyond]

267. i have only said it about ten times in this thread. you found ONE post i didnt clarify? my bad

rollin' eyes

[Exilednight]

134. If lives matter soooo much to you then PLEASE tell me how

Voting for Hillary will change that?

10000 plus dead because she, as a member of the Senate, voted for the IWR.

I lost three good friends in a meaningless war that she helped create because she didn't do her due diligence as a public servant and couldn't be bothered to read the intelligence brief. The same brief that every member who did read it votes no because they said the intelligence im the briefing was too flimsy to waste American lives on.

[840high]

226. ...^ that

[seabeyond]

233. if we lose the surpeme court, we will lose more women and girls lives. more imprisonment

for our women and girls.

that simple

you do not vote, the lives of our women and girls change.

[Exilednight]

237. If she really cared, she would never have voted for

The IWR and, in doing so, sentenced tens of thousands Iraqi women and girls to their death or a life of imprisonment to husbands they do not want.

Remind me again: who holds the 5-4 advantage on the Supreme Court?

[seabeyond]

238. i have to wonder your obsession ignoring the importance of supr crt for our girls and women.

it so resembles a lack of compassion for a whole gender.

[Exilednight]

240. I have to wonder your obsession to ignore the question. Here's a second

Question: how can I expect her to show the skills of leadership when she couldn't be bothered to read the intelligence concerning Iraq before voting on it?

[seabeyond]

241. that is totally irrelevant. my goal is to elect a dem. you want an argument about clinton,

find someone else.

you do not vote dem, you vote against all the people that need the supreme crt. that simple. argue away, with the other crap.

if you advocate a third party, or advocate people not vote dem, you go against TOS on THIS democratic progressive board.

[Exilednight]

242. who controls the SC with a 5-4 majority now?

[seabeyond]

243. again. that has nothing to do with anything. we have three very old. we need to be in position

to fill spots. serious?

done.

i cant argue something so fuckin weak, or no relevance to the discussion

[Exilednight]

244. You're arguing about court appointees to control the court, and you try to

Muddy the waters instead of being honest.

[seabeyond]

245. it is simple. we do need control in supreme court. do you have an issue with that also?

where is the fuckin muddy of water and dishonesty? like discussing a vote over a decade ago to go to war? talk about fuckin muddying something so simple.

you have an issue with dem holding presidency to appoint our supreme court justices?

to save our girls and womens lives? to stop imprisoning our girls because of their bodies? to deny a registration of our girls miscarriage?

is that TOO fuckin over the top for you?

[Exilednight]

246. Who comtrols the SC with a 5-4 margin? Be honest.

[seabeyond]

248. i do not think i have ever replied to you in past. i wont be in the future.

[okaawhatever]

131. Well if you find joy in losing, then the 2016 election should be positively gleeful for you. nt

[cui bono]

260. Where did 840 say they found joy in losing? n/t

[Bonobo]

135. Oh, another misogynist that wants the destruction of all women and girls!!

[seabeyond]

148. want? maybe a handful. mostly, can care less about women and girls for their own self interest.

[Katashi_itto]

136. Hyperventilate much? Just make it up as you go?

[seabeyond]

149. flinging shit to see what sticks?

[Katashi_itto]

219. No. I that's your department.

[Scootaloo]

203. Couple questions...

How many women did the invasion of Iraq kill? Maim? How many girls raped, terrorized, brutalized? Women and children obliterated, scattered, traumatized?

How about Libya? "We came, we saw, he died!" - How have Libyan women fared since?

Did you know that both former Egyptian president Mubarak and King Hamad of Bahrain allow(ed) their soldiers and police to use rape and beatings as tools of coercion and deterrence against protesters?

[seabeyond]

204. we are comparing past kills with present and future kills of our women and girls and black men?

[polly7]

205. The killing and raping of women in these areas occurs on a daily basis.

The whole are is a furnace exploding. Women are being used as suicide bombers. They are being kidnapped and kept as slaves. These are not past kills, nor are they unimportant.

[seabeyond]

206. ok. now polly. how about THIS country we live in and govern. you think we might focus on our dead

and imprisoned women and girls and black men?

btw...

meh... whatever you post. cause you arguing the rape and deaths of women in another country, by making the point in not voting in this country, this election 2016, which will escalate the rapes and deaths of our women and girls....

simply does not cut it for me.

as i stated. we are really comparing kills of our women and girls.

i wouldnt think we sank to that level.

i am not participating.

[polly7]

207. You said, the PAST, dismissing the horror those women and girls are facing today.

The poster you replied to inquired about the rapes and murders of women in Iraq, Libya and Egypt as a result of invasion and bombings that created extremist hate groups. They operate TODAY, and are not something in the past to be tossed aside. THAT is what I was responding to.

[seabeyond]

209. ivasion of iraq is the past. hence my discussion. i am NOT comparing kills. i do not know how much

more clear than i can be with you.

i think it is a sick game

[polly7]

211. The invasion has spawned a whole region of horror. It is not in the past - the results are being

lived out today!

What is a sick game????

I replied to what you SAID.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3092946/I-rejoiced-sex-slave-forced-sex-ISN-T-rape-thankful-Chilling-rant-twisted-ISIS-jihadi-bride-justifies-kidnapping-abusing-Yazidi-girls.html

[Scootaloo]

208. As Polly notes, they're ongoing

Further, all four instances I mentioned are very relevant to your choice of candidate. She voted for the Iraq war. As Secretary of State, she provided material and political assistance to Mubarak and the King of Bahrain. even knowing perfectly well what those two barbarians were doing to the people protesting their respective regimes. And she very cheerfully announced that we toppled Ghaddafi then abandoned Libya to whatever would happen - And look at Libya now.

[seabeyond]

210. as YOU said, ... iraq invasion! and as i said to molly, i will not compare deaths....

i do not and have not EVER played the game for any reason. even to make a point

[polly7]

213. LMAO ... molly. That's a few times you've done that now. It's 'polly'. Tricky! nt.

[cui bono]

269. Maybe you can use 'peabeyond' from now on.

[polly7]

273. !!!

I'd be alerted on and hidden so fast ...... but it's tempting.

[Scootaloo]

214. It's not "comparing deaths"

for starters, Polly and I are talking about real people who have really suffered and really died. Yours are 100% hypothetical. there is no comparison to be made, even if that were the point.

That point is that you are casting Clinton as a savior of women. However, as Senator and Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton voted and acted in ways that led to a great number of dead and greatly harmed women and girls. These decisions will continue harming women and girls. As president, she is likely to continue the pattern, only she will be able to claim direct, rather than partial responsibility.

if you are as concerned about women as you say you are, you could at least think about this situation.

Instead, you choose to dismiss the actual suffering of actual women. Why?

[seabeyond]

216. if people advocate not to vote clinton if she wins primary, if they do not vote, they work toward

women, girls and black mens death and imprisonment.

it is not about clinton. it is not about making her a savior. it is about... hiring a fuckin democrat that will have womens, girls and black mans interest

[Violet_Crumble]

232. Clearly only American Lives Matter...

Women are suffering in countries where the US invaded, and the horrific things that happen to them just aren't worth worrying about or talking about because Hillary Clinton voted for the invasion. The dismissal of those women because they don't happen to be American is revolting, imo...

[seabeyond]

235. not, clearly. your agenda driven. you and others dismiss our girls and womens lives and imprisonment

not a single address to no vote for dem, will effect the lives of women and girls. sittin' on the moral high horse.

[Violet_Crumble]

280. No, Seabeyond. It's not a focus on one to the exclusion of the other thing...

When you say 'our girls and women', which you've said many, many times at DU, yr talking solely about American women, not women globally.

While I get that women's rights in the US is an important issue, there's two Democrat candidates so far who both have a very strong record on that issue. But when it comes to the rights of women globally, Hillary Clinton falls far short. And US foreign policy which leads to the abuse of women in countries like Iraq, Libya and other places the US has had a big hand in destabilising is also an important issue.

What I really don't understand is why you appear to think that people should only focus on one issue and if they don't then you accuse them of dismissing 'our girls and women'? It seems very clear to me that most DUers believe women's rights, both domestically and internationally is a very important issue.

[seabeyond]

281. if hillary wins the primary, NOT voting. that is the issue vc. not primary, not two candidates.

it helps if you address the issue discussed

people stating they will not vote clinton if she wins the primary and is our presidential candidate.

they will not vote dem

they want a repug to win, to show us all

now, ... tell me what my problem is as people throw their fit because they do not get who they want, at our women and girls expense.

it is really easy to fuckin debate a made up argument, i get it

[polly7]

282. Well stated Violet! nt.

[seabeyond]

283. except the discussion isnt about the primary, but wtf! well stated!

[polly7]

284. What?

She made good points. I agreed with them, women and children all over the world have been, and are affected by U.S. and Canadian and others' decisions to bomb and intervene in the past. Is there something false about what she said that I should have said - poorly stated, Violet!?

[polly7]

212. Thank you.

Sheesh.

[840high]

227. Didn't she say something like "we came, we

killed, we left"?

[cui bono]

268. And odn't forget the women in our own armed forces raped by their fellow servicemen.

More wars means more rapes of service women.

[treestar]

254. that's your motive, really?

That is more important than keeping Rs out of office? Seriously? How liberal is that? Not very. It's I don't care territory itself.

Simple seeing everyone so negatively is not as cool as it seems. You would see it as the better of two options. You simply chose negativity.

And how is that going to make the voters more liberal? How is that going to get a President and Congress full of Social Democrats?

[840high]

276. ...^ that

[DCBob]

139. Isn't that against the rules here?

[seabeyond]

150. yes. to advocate do not vote dem, or third party is against the TOS. nt

[840high]

228. Sanders is Dem candidate.

[seabeyond]

236. which has NOTHING to do with my comment.

[cui bono]

270. I do not believe abstaining is against the rules.

Is voting for a Dino against the rules?

[cherokeeprogressive]

17. Ya know; if there were ever a group of posts that seemed paid for...

Mags' posts would seem to be the ones.

[DURHAM D]

25. LOL.

Well if true at least she is getting paid. I wish Bernie would get some paid posters on DU as they would be less repetitive and have less junk on their pages that takes too long to load.

[hrmjustin]

33. So we are openly saying people ard paid to post here now?

[cherokeeprogressive]

39. Just an observation, not an accusation. You however, may feel free to infer whatever you like.

[hrmjustin]

43. Oh just an observation, of course.

[cherokeeprogressive]

91. No "is", no "are", but there is an "if" in the post.

I hope you didn't pull a muscle while you were stretching.

[hrmjustin]

93. I hope you didn't blush while you were trying to be cute.

[cherokeeprogressive]

106. No but the bruise is gonna take a few days to disappear.

It seems I bumped into an immovable object.

Props.

[cui bono]

121. S/he may not be being paid...

but s/he all but admitted to trolling.

[hrmjustin]

144. Trolling is in the eye of the beholder.

[Fumesucker]

261. Trolling is in the eye of the admin

Like Zeus from Olympus, admin speaks and trolls get a circular final meal.

[hrmjustin]

262. Well put.

[cui bono]

271. And...?

Did you read my post?

Hehe...

But seriously. I didn't just call her/him a troll.

[hrmjustin]

272. No you didn't.

[MaggieD]

42. I'm willing to get paid for it....

As long as the schedule is flexible. Got a lead for me?

[cherokeeprogressive]

107. I was gonna say I know a lobbyist for Monsanto but I got nothin' really. n/t

[MaggieD]

110. Dang

[stillwaiting]

137. She's a self-proclaimed "job provider" (her words and language not often used around here).

Last edited Fri May 22, 2015, 07:52 AM - Edit history (1)

She pays her employees "very well" (her words -- which could possibly indicate her own financial situation).

And, she was howling in protest at being taxed .5% per $100 on investments (Bernie's plan).

All of her time around here could be attributed to her openly stated (many, many times) contempt for the loony left/fringe left/far left (some of her favorite catchphrases). She has almost as much disdain for those of us who believe in traditional Democratic viewpoints/policies as Republicans. She clearly seems to relish shouting down those of us who are agitating to change the current status quo within the Democratic Party and Democratic Leadership (she's one of the worst in her mocking and ridiculing; and she does it from a position of financial privilege it would seem).

She's a very special part of the Democratic Party these days.


Edited for accuracy. "Job provider" and "job creator" are essentially the same thing though, and they certainly reflect the same mentality.

[MaggieD]

183. Would you feel better...

If I closed my business and laid off 22 employees and took away their 100% paid health insurance, bonuses, 401k and other benefits?

Am I evil because I'm successful even though I run my business based on liberal principles?

Will my folks be better off if the fringe left tears down our front runner 24/7 and helps a rethug get elected? I don't think so. I care about the people that work for me.

You know I tell my family all the time - we'll be okay either way. If rethugs take the WH our taxes will go down. It will be a gravy train for us. But if a democrat prevails the world will be a better place. I vote for the latter. Always have and always will.

[stillwaiting]

200. The problem that I have with you is how over-the-top you are with your mocking and

ridiculing both politicians, positions, and supporters (i.e. some of us on DU) that are truly progressive.

It is 100% your attitude. I don't begrudge wealthy people their wealth (I promise you that). I have been blessed to be in the family that I am. I absolutely do not like wealthy people that spend so much of their time mocking and ridiculing progressive policies, politicians, and supporters (your "looney, far-left"-ers).

Your principles are not that liberal if you are upset about a .5% tax on investments.

All of your questions are ridiculous. It's your attitude that I don't like as it comes from a place of financial privilege. It's really gross.

You've been quite nasty around here.

[MaggieD]

218. Compared to what?

I have to admit, I can be pretty snarky at times. I will try to be less so. However, I have been reading DU just about everyday for 14 years. And the reason I started posting again was because of the sheer belligerence of many of the Bernie supporters and the NON-STOP smears against Democrats on this site. What I learned once I started posting was that it was worse than I even knew.

I will tell you this.... I have never told people that "their opinion doesn't mean shit," or accused them of being a sock puppet (with no reason either -- just to insult). I have not said vicious things about Bernie or lied about his record. I haven't said "well you must be lazy because you're poor," which is the equivelent of the implication that I must be a right winger because I am not poor. Or this kind of comment from you "It's your attitude that I don't like as it comes from a place of financial privilege."

(AND BY THE WAY - I do NOT come from a place of financial privelege. I was poor as shit, and worked my way up. I was lucky to be white and fairly smart, so I have THAT privelege since I did nothing to earn either of those things. But all the way up I have tried to pull others up with me. Every day. And I have been sucessful at that to. So I resent your assumption).

The excuse that people are rude here because of me just doesn't fly. And you can't seriously deny that just about EVERYBODY who is NOT a Bernie supporters recognizes the belligerence of the Bernie crowd.

I think reality is his supporters just don't like being challenged or talked back to. And to that I say, tough luck.

[stillwaiting]

220. You do come from a place of financial privilege. I didn't say anything about your upbringing.

So I didn't assume what you think I did. I assume, based on your own posts, that you currently have access to more financial resources than most people in this country (and that IS coming from a place of financial privilege today compared to most; i.e. you are currently financially privileged compared to most). And, I didn't say anything about you not working hard. LOTS of people work hard in this country and are struggling. Struggling more and more every year as labor continues to be exploited. And, of course, I'm appreciative if you don't exploit those who work for you. That is to be commended.

It seems like you have been very fortunate in your life (and I'm sure you worked hard for your success). It would be great if you didn't mock and ridicule people who have hope for Bernie Sanders (and the policies that he supports) because it is those policies that many people believe can actually help them provide for themselves again. I'd love it if you would make your political points, but just take it easy on the nastiness . You really don't need to go there. You're blessed. You're going to be just fine most likely no matter who becomes President. Many others are probably not as lucky.

Oh, and I also never said that people were rude here because of you. That just has me shaking my head. It would be great if you could show a little grace though seeing that you seem to be doing pretty well financially. You don't have to meet nastiness with nastiness. Or, keep on doing what you're doing. If that's what makes you happy. I'm just saying it's not attractive to me based on what you volunteered about your station in life. You really don't have to give a damn about what I think though.

[MaggieD]

221. Thanks for the lecture

If you want an abatement to the nastiness I would suggest you start with you, then move on to Bernie supporters. Get back to me when you're successful with that. Maybe I'll climb on board.

[stillwaiting]

222. I wouldn't bet a red cent on that. You're going to do what you enjoy doing.

And, I don't stoop to nastiness around here.

Your record is on display every day around here.

And, you needed the lecture. Glad, I could help on that one.

[seabeyond]

223. i appreciate your posts, for being informative and snark free. meh.. nt

[pnwmom]

113. So if Hillary wins the nomination you're not going to vote at all?

Because that's what you're implying.

[cui bono]

122. Well I'm not voting for her if she wins.

She can win my state without me and I will not participate in sealing our country's demise.

[pnwmom]

128. You're deluding yourself if you think that sitting out the election means you're not assisting

in the country's demise.`

[cui bono]

129. I won't be sitting out the election. I will simply not be voting for the president.

And that will not be helping this country's demise. Voting for anything other than a real old school Democrat will be just that. Especially another corporate Dem. Will not do it.

If the Dems want to assure a win we need to get a real liberal on the ticket. And a less divisive/polarizing person.

[seabeyond]

152. you and others are just creating a campaign that is more and more exclusive. and you do not get it.

you create your own demise. i gotta wonder how sanders would feel knowing his "supporters" purposely exclude and alienate potential voters.

[cui bono]

176. Exclusive? I think not.

What I want is what most Americans want.

It's the corporatists that are exclusive.

i gotta wonder how sanders would feel knowing his "supporters" purposely exclude and alienate potential voters.

Where am I doing this exactly?

You want me to be enthusiastic about voting for president? Don't participate in getting a centrist corporatist as the Dem nominee. But I'm not voting for moderate Republican policy any more. Did it 4 times already and look where it got us.

[seabeyond]

185. i do not care a hoot about your enthusiasm. i expect a democrat to support the democratic party.

[cui bono]

190. You do understand that 'enthusiasm' and 'excitement' mean that the candidate lives up

to one's ideals? It is directly proportional to how good the candidate is for the people, a measurement if you will.

It's not, as you want to define it, about my personal feelings that have nothing to do with what's good for the country.

You do understand that 'enthusiasm' and 'excitement' translate into higher voting turn out, don't you? Bernie is the candidate that the people are enthusiastic and excited about. He's reaching the youngsters as well. I don't think a corporate, establishment candidate is going to do that.

I do support the Democratic Party's ideals. I will not support Democrats who enact moderate Republicans any more. That time has come and gone. It is imperative to elect someone who actually fights for the real Dem policies and ideals on ALL fronts if we want our country to get back to what it is supposed to be. If you want the wealth disparity to continue to grow - and the US is already about the highest of modern countries in that area - then go ahead, keep voting in the same old centrists/corporatists. You'll get your wish. And if you think that people who are struggling for mere survival will be able to fight for social justice, well, that's not how it has worked in the past. Part of why education is so bad and geared towards a vocational agenda and why incomes are kept so low is so that the people don't learn to think and also can't afford to fight.

[seabeyond]

196. i understand that live are at stake this election. there are those casually dismissing lives.

[cui bono]

217. And you're telling me this because....

That is a rather odd response to my post, but whatever.

[840high]

229. Thank you.

[840high]

249. You expect??? Now that's funny.

[seabeyond]

250. "i expect a democrat to support the democratic party." you get you are on a democratic board, right?

[840high]

274. I support Sanders. Keep on expecting.

[Bobbie Jo]

251. How so?

Try explaining in more than 5 words.

Betcha can't.

[KMOD]

5. Yes she is.

Thank you, Nate, and thank you Maggie for posting this.

[MaggieD]

13. You're welcome

It's nice to inject some facts into the discussion from time to time.

[TM99]

6. Hillary's often come to lately social liberalism is rarely the problem.

It is her damned neo-liberal economic policies and neo-conservative foreign policy issues which are!

Out of the three soon to be Dem candidates, all three are socially liberal. It is their other policies positions that distinguish them for me.

[MaggieD]

24. Social Issues?

Maybe he did in Vermont, but I can't think of one thing Bernie did for GLBT Americans except maybe say he supported us if asked.

HRC on the other hand has been very vocal advocate for over a decade.

[TM99]

29. Are you fucking kidding me?

How about the fact that in the 1990's he voted against DADT AND DOMA both of which your precious HRC was for.

She only came out in support of full LGBT marriage rights in 2013! Decades my ass.

Stop rewriting history.

[hrmjustin]

36. Did Hillary come out for DADT and DOMA?

[KMOD]

41. .

[hrmjustin]

44. I marched we ith her in 2000 and 2001 in the Pride parade.

[MaggieD]

46. Exactly. She has been awesome to the GLBT community

[DURHAM D]

80. Second that.

I was introduced to Hillary back in the 70s by my then partner. In fact, my partner said to Hillary "I would like for you to meet my partner". I nearly fell over as this was a professional gathering (they were working on something for President Carter) and I truly did not expect that type of introduction.

As I struggled to regain my composure Hillary immediately let out a big whoop, moved my extended hand outside and grabbed me in a big ole hug instead. She turned to my partner and said "I am so honored". Then they hugged and we all got emotional.

[MaggieD]

82. That's the HRC I know too

Nice story. Thanks.

[DURHAM D]

87. Meeting Hillary way back then

and her reaction truly filled me with Gay Pride.

[KMOD]

52. That is awesome.

[hrmjustin]

57. They were great days but the 2010 one was better because we got marriage equality the day before.

[MaggieD]

66. I remember that!

That was a great day.

[hrmjustin]

73. Yes it was.

[KMOD]

67. That was an awesome day for NYS.

I remember watching the vote online.

[hrmjustin]

75. I remember crying as the vote the day the vote came down.

It was a great day.

[KMOD]

81. :)

me, too.

[MaggieD]

86. I did too

We had to wait for the people to vote here. But you guys were a major tipping point in NYS.

[TM99]

49. As I have said, she is incongruent.

That makes her a person that is difficult to fully trust.

At the same time she was walking in the 2000 NYC Pride Parade, she was also quoted as saying as a candidate that she would have voted for DOMA. And in 2007, she stated that she favored repealing only that part of the law that blocked federal benefits.

It is good to see that the Clintons have caught up to the rest of us, isn't?

It is the history of being incongruent and inconsistent (which admittedly she has been on several topics!) that makes some of us just not trust her sincerity.

[hrmjustin]

54. As a gay man i am always happy to see come to our side.

[TM99]

59. Of course, I do too.

Read my quote from Sullivan in another post. He makes some valid points.

I do not trust Clinton. I have seen her politically since their days in Arkansas - I met my ex-wife in Little Rock in the 1980's.

[hrmjustin]

60. On this one my friend we disagree.

I like and trust her.

[TM99]

63. I Know we are in disaggrement here.

It is a powerful disagreement, however, we have a good relationship.

It is only politics after all.

[hrmjustin]

65. .

[KMOD]

58. The Clinton's were instrumental in bringing us to this point.

It was a very hard fought battle against the ignorant and the bigots.

[TM99]

61. How can you read the facts and history as it truly was

and believe what you just said?

People like Sanders are the ones that brought us all to this point. He has been consistently pro-civil rights since the 1960's and pro-LGBT rights since the 1990's.

[MaggieD]

69. Because we LIVED it

[cui bono]

123. +1

[KMOD]

198. Because it's true.

Yes, Sanders has a wonderful record on civil rights and LGBT rights. The Clintons have been more beneficial in bringing us to where we are today.

[MaggieD]

45. No I'm not kidding you

I sat on a national GLBT non-profit board. Never heard jack from Bernie.

HRC raised money for us, and voted with us too. And she spoke up. Often.

[TM99]

56. It isn't always about the money.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/04/clinton-white-house-gay-rights-hillary-clinton-staff-116859.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/07/21/hillary_clinton_s_record_on_gay_rights_and_lgbt_rights_is_confusing.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/21/why-hillary-clinton-s-same-sex-marriage-stance-has-split-gay-supporters.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/06/hillary-clintons-gay-marriage-problem/372717/

Andrew Sullivan's perspective is instructive:

She was the second most powerful person in an administration in a critical era for gay rights. And in that era, her husband signed the HIV travel ban into law (it remained on the books for 22 years thereafter), making it the only medical condition ever legislated as a bar to even a tourist entering the US. Clinton also left gay service-members in the lurch, doubling the rate of their discharges from the military, and signed DOMA, the high watermark of anti-gay legislation in American history. Where and when it counted, the Clintons gave critical credibility to the religious right’s jihad against us. And on the day we testified against DOMA in 1996, their Justice Department argued that there were no constitutional problems with DOMA at all (the Supreme Court eventually disagreed).

What I’d like to hear her answer is whether she regrets that period and whether she will ever take responsibility for it. But she got pissed when merely asked how calculated her position on this was. Here’s my guess: Unlike Obama, she was personally deeply uncomfortable with this for a long time and politically believed the issue was a Republican wedge issue to torment the Clintons rather than a core civil rights cause. I was editor of TNR for five years of the Clintons, aggressively writing and publishing articles in favor of marriage equality and military service, and saw the Clintons’ irritation with and hostility to gay activists up close. Under my editorship, we were a very early 1991 backer of Clinton – so I sure didn’t start out prejudiced against them. They taught me that skepticism all by themselves, and mainly by lying all the time.

So when did she evolve? Maybe in the middle 2000s. Was political calculation as big an influence as genuine personal wrestling? She’s a Clinton. They poll-tested where to go on vacation. Of course it was. But she’s also a human being and probably came around personally as well. She’s not a robot, after all. But I think of her position as the same as the eponymous gay rights organization the Clintons controlled in the 1990s, the Human Rights Campaign. As long as marriage equality hurt the Democrats, they were against it. Now it may even hurt Republicans, they’re for it. So Hillary is for it now.

We’ve just got to hope the polling stays strong.

[MaggieD]

62. Hillary is not Bill

Andrew Sullivan is a right wing ahole.

And yes, Virginia, it IS about the money if you're trying to get marriage rights or defeat people trying to write discrimination against you into the constitution. Campaigns aren't free, and when we were fighting she was right there with us. Didn't see Bernie do jack.

[TM99]

68. I know that the only thing important to you in politics is money.

It is very apparent from all of your posts on any topic here.

You will compromise ethics, principles, and traditional values if money will get a politician elected that you favor. And you mostly favor the politicians that use money to get elected.

To say that Sanders did jack is specious. You know that. I also know that you will not admit it.

[MaggieD]

72. Easy for you to say....

You didn't have to wait until you were 50 to get married. And you didn't have to raise a kid in a family that didnt have the legal protections other people take for granted.

[TM99]

76. You know nothing about my life for you to make

such assumptions.

But I have become used to your mind-reading attempts which almost always fail.

[MaggieD]

79. Are you GLBT?

Becuase you don't sound like you know much about who supported us and who didn't.

[TM99]

84. I do not like identity politics.

I don't discuss my personal preferences sexual or otherwise.

I have been actively involved from my college years in the early 1980's in LGBT civil rights.

I lived the history. I know who waffled. I know who evolved. I know who was supportive when others were not.

[MaggieD]

90. Identity politics?

Do you think we'd have ever achieved any rights if we'd stayed in the closet? I couldn't disagree more. The key to obtaining our rights was for us to speak up and let people see that they all knew GLBT people and that we are no different than they are.

[TM99]

96. Identity politics

requires monolithic positions. All blacks must be liberal Democrats that support HRC.

The choice to reveal ones sexual preference or orientation is a personal choice.

Do you believe in outing others?

[MaggieD]

98. No it doesn't

I don't care who you vote for. I'm just telling you she walked the talk on this issue. And she walked it next to us. In votes, in fund raising, in hiring, in deeds. It's that simple.

[TM99]

100. Her history is incongruent.

The facts of that don't lie. For all the good you describe, I have presented the equally as bad. I am glad she is fully on board now.

But it is her history of incongruence and inconsistency on major issues - social, economic, & foreign policy - which makes me not trust her. And where she has been consistent, I definitely don't want her to be our next President.

[MaggieD]

102. No they aren't

Stop projecting Bill on to her.

[DURHAM D]

92. Should we call this straightsplain? nt

[MaggieD]

94. Sounds like it

[TM99]

71. I lived it too.

You are taking your one experience on a non-profit board and attempting to say that that was all that matters - no money from Sanders so no support - money from HRC so full support.

Grow up.

[MaggieD]

77. You're gay?

I didn't say all that matters is money. You said that. I said Bernie didn't do jack except say he supported gays when asked.

[TM99]

89. Bullshit!

http://www.bustle.com/articles/79951-bernie-sanders-views-on-gay-marriage-show-hes-been-a-supporter-for-a-long-time

http://www.advocate.com/politics/election/2015/04/30/bernie-sanders-most-lgbt-friendly-candidate

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2015/05/bernie-sanders-touts-record-on-lgbt-issues-in-white-house-bid/

http://www.washingtonblade.com/2015/05/15/sanders-touts-lgbt-record-in-white-house-bid/

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/supreme-court-victories-for-gay-marriage

Now you are just making shit up.

[MaggieD]

95. Should we thank him for press releases?

Okay. Thanks, Bernie.

[TM99]

97. Thank him for his votes.

Thank him for the briefs filed against DOMA during the landmark SCOTUS trial.

Was Hillary one of those people?

[MaggieD]

99. She wasn't in congress then

But thank you Bernie for signing a brief someone else wrote 20 years ago. Thank you Hillary for marching, advocating, raising money, hiring, voting, and issuing press releases for the rights of GLBT people.

Are we square now?

ETA: and bringing equality to the State department. I forgot that one.

[TM99]

101. Dude, I am done with you.

You dismiss the good Sanders has done. You dismiss the bad Clinton has done. You are dead set on her as your candidate. You push her daily by dismissing the good of others and ignoring the really bad shit this woman has done.

[MaggieD]

104. No I don't

I'm just saying between the two of them she has done more. And she has.

P.S. I'm not a dude.

[TM99]

105. Yes, you do.

Dude is used universally with any gender.

[MaggieD]

108. No, I really don't

But I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's true that he has done more for our rights than she has.

Sorry, dude. That's just bullshit. He hasn't.

[Hiraeth]

177. Yes and, that is why I here so many Rs in my area say they like Hillary and would vote for her.

[HooptieWagon]

9. OK, let's tally:

Former Goldwater Girl - that's not liberal.
Former BoD of WalMart - that's not liberal.
Founding member of DLC - that's not liberal.
Was for NAFTA before she was against it - that's not liberal.
Warmonger - that's not liberal.
BFF with Kissinger - that's not liberal.
Takes donations from Goldman-Sachs and other Wall St Cos - that's not liberal.
Big supporter of GMOs and Monsanto - that's not liberal.
For TPP - that's not liberal.

OK, what exactly are her liberal creds?

[840high]

11. ...

[MaggieD]

12. The article already tallied - her votes

[HooptieWagon]

16. The MOST important vote a Senator faces is to vote on war.

And she got it terribly wrong.

[MaggieD]

51. She did get that wrong - yes

As she herself has admitted. It doesn't change my support for her. It doesn't mean she isn't a liberal IMO. I don't condemn her for swallowing Bush's lies. And I sympathize with her erring on the wrong side of caution as the senator that represented NYC.

I UNDERSTAND why her Iraq vote might disqualify her to some. But it does not excuse all the ridiculous nonsense people post about her here.

[KMOD]

50. Obviously not a serious list, and definately not

worth a rebuttal.
Silly and spun talking points that only ABCers post.

[Doctor_J]

64. But besides those

And these

KXL
Off shore drilling
Fracking
Friend of AIPAC
Promised to be friendlier to the republicans than Obama

Liberal!!!!11!

[Change has come]

103. Best response ever.

[Thinkingabout]

109. RW talking points, not liberal.

[cui bono]

124. Hm... so facts are now right wing talking points?

[Dr Hobbitstein]

171. Let's see...

Goldwater Girl - Before voting age, when eligible to vote, registered as a Dem and ALWAYS voted Dem.

Former BoD of WalMart - this was during the 1980s, when WalMart carried USA made products. Hillary pushed for better conditions for women while on the BoD.

Warmonger - IWR WAS not a declaration of war, it was authorization to use military force IF our inspectors found WMDs. Bush pulled our inspectors out and went to war, basically pissing on the IWR. Hillary has also stated she regrets signing it.

BFF with Kissinger - A photo with a person does not make them BFFs. Other people who've been photo'd with Kissinger: Jimmy Carter (had regular WH meetings with him in the late 70s), Nelson Mandella (they actually were good friends), LBJ, et al)

Donations from GS/WS - Really? Every politician gets donations. The majority of Hillary's donations came from INDIVIDUALS. Very little came from WS PACs.

Supporter of GMOs - *gasp* Hillary is on the side of science. GMO is not a left/right issue (no matter how much some want to make it so). Support of GMO does NOT equate to support of Monsanto (demonizing a science because an unscrupulous company engages in said science is dishonest).

She hasn't said anything about the TPP at this point as far as I can recall.

Anything else?

[Hekate]

18. 5th Rec

[eridani]

21. Voting to invade Iraq was "liberal"? Strange definition you have there n/t

[MaggieD]

31. By all means - don't vote for her because of that

But can we stop pretended she is the second coming of Ted Cruz or something. She's a liberal.

[eridani]

40. My first primary vote will never be for an Iraq war supposrter

Running to the right of Obama on foreign policy in general is not liberal.

[cui bono]

125. I haven't seen anyone accuse Ted Cruz of being centrist.

[JEB]

26. Liberal in a Lloyd Blankfein kind of way.

[Bonobo]

27. I can't vote for someone I ALREADY don't trust.

Not for the primaries anyway.

[jeff47]

32. Hey look! It's the same shitty metric as last week and the week before!

First, this only measures bills that made it to the floor. A universal income bill that doesn't get out of committee doesn't count, despite being far more liberal than what Clinton voted for.

Second, a vote against a "liberal" bill increases your "conservative" score. Even if you voted against it because it wasn't liberal enough. Vote against the ACA because it doesn't have a public option? Congrats! You're Ted Cruz's clone.

[MaggieD]

48. So facts are meaningless

Ok - got it. I'm really not trying to be rude, but you know, republicans say pretty much the same thing about facts.

[Dawgs]

141. But it's not factual.

The point of the post is that when someone votes against a liberal bill for not being liberal enough it is used against them. Which means the metric is flawed. Or, it doesn't give a clear picture of how liberal someone is or isn't.

I don't think the post you responded to was saying that Hillary isn't liberal, just that how bills are voted on is not a good way to measure it.

[MaggieD]

178. So facts are meaningless

That's really what you are saying. Her very long record of liberal policy statements and votes mean nothing.

Bernie's do, but hers don't. Or something.

[jeff47]

156. No, the facts are fine. Your analysis of the facts is wrong.

The fact of what Clinton voted for is not the dispute.

The larger meaning you are trying to attach to those facts is wrong.

"I'm the tallest person in my house." That's a fact - My wife is slightly shorter than me, and my two children are currently much shorter.

"Therefore, I am a tall man." That is analysis, based on that previous fact. And it is wrong. It only relies on the first fact instead of the much larger pool of facts that exist in the world.

Clinton cast certain votes on bills that reached the floor of the Senate. Those votes are facts. The meaning you are attempting to apply to those votes is false, because it ignores the larger pool of facts that exist. There are bills that do not reach the floor that don't count, and the analysis scores a vote for "not liberal enough" as "conservative".

[MrMickeysMom]

38. I believe that people who are smart enough in life but are willing to sell out...

are not what you call, "liberal"…

I would more likely call it like I see it…

Hillary was gonna be somebody…

Hillary never followed through…

It's too bad about Hillary, cause once upon a time, she very well might have been the country's best hope. Makes you wonder what would have happened without Bill.

[MaggieD]

47. She was more liberal than 85% in her votes

That's just a fact.

[MrMickeysMom]

140. What did you just write?

Say it again, so I understand what "more liberal than 85% in her votes" means.

[Doctor_J]

53. But the hillarians claim that a liberal can't get elected president. Wait.

This is an odd numbered day. Never mind

[BrotherIvan]

112. ^^

[brooklynite]

151. No, they don't

They've stated that a LEFTIST can't get elected President, and that, as a self-described socialist, Bernie Sanders falls into that category.

[jeff47]

157. You mean a "leftist" like one of the most liberal senators?

Ya gotta pick one. Either Clinton is a pragmatic centrist and thus electable, or she's one of the most liberal senators and thus not electable.

Alternately, you could decide that pragmatic centrism isn't required to be electable, and that liberals can be elected.

[brooklynite]

166. I'd say she's center-left, which puts her in the mainstream of Democratic voters and policy makers..

...which most voters would translate as "liberal" vs "conservative".

[jeff47]

169. Then you'll have to stop arguing she's one of the most liberal senators.

Because "most liberal" means she isn't mainstream and where your flawed view of "most voters" make liberal. "Most liberal" would mean "most voters" would consider her extreme.

At least if you want to be consistent in your arguments.

[brooklynite]

175. I've never made that argument...

[treestar]

255. A liberal by the definition adopted by members of the board who say Hillary isn't one

couldn't win.

[PowerToThePeople]

70. .

[KMOD]

74. You are adorable.

Yes, I notice your graphic and that you have trashed the thread.

We are all in awe.

[Bonobo]

78. Liberal with the truth?

[KMOD]

83. hahahaha

Love the DU Men's right's group checking in with their opinion.

[Bjorn Against]

85. You can't determine how liberal someone is through a mathematical equation.

Five Thirty Eight is good at number crunching, but too often they fail to recognize that not everything can be determined through math. There is no mathematical formula for determining how liberal a person is.

You can not calculate it by votes because there is no real objective way to determine which votes are liberal and how much each of those votes should weigh. A vote for the war in Iraq should carry a far greater weight than a vote on a small spending bill. We also need to look at a lawmakers reasons for voting for or against a bill to determine whether their vote was liberal, using a one size fits all math formula can not determine why a lawmaker voted why they did.

Five Thirty Eight is good at crunching poll numbers, they are absolutely terrible at measuring political ideology.

[cui bono]

116. "Clinton was one of the most liberal members during her time in the Senate"

yeah, during her time in the Senate. When both parties had moved rightward. So the Cons were extreme right and the Dems were center. So really that doesn't mean a whole lot. She voted for the war when most of us knew it was a ruse.

Public statements mean nothing, as you pointed out in another thread, it's actions that mean something.

There is no way in hell Hillary is "as Elizabeth Warren and barely more moderate than Bernie Sanders", that is a pipe dream at best. She is tied to big business and banksters. Warren and Sanders continuously fight against them, standing up for working people. And seriously, Obama is a "hard core liberal"? No "hard core liberal" offers up SS, kills innocent people with drone strikes (more than Bush), prosecutes more whistleblowers than all other presidents combined, shuts out single-payer during ACA talks but holds secret backroom meetings with insurance companies, puts Wall Street in the White House, appoints Monsanto people to the EPA, calls war criminal torturers "patriots"...

"hard core liberal" my ass.

We need someone who really is liberal, such as Bernie Sanders, and who is actually on the left of the political spectrum, such as Bernie Sanders. There is no way that Hillary will ever be liberal, much less govern as one.

[MaggieD]

118. If Bernie is the only liberal left in the whole wide world

.... how will he get get anything passed as president?!?

LOL!

[cui bono]

126. You really like to pretend I said things I never said.

But to answer you... if he doesn't get anything passed I guess we can take a page from the Obama apologists' playbook and blame it on the Cons.

[MaggieD]

127. Or we can blame it on reality

Something which, IMO, is sorely lacking here lately.

[cui bono]

130. You're telling me!

Can you believe there's actually an OP on here that claims that Hillary is a liberal? I'll try to find the link if I can. You won't believe it!!!

[Dawgs]

142. You can't have it both ways MaggieD.

You can't argue that Bernie is only a tiny bit more liberal than Hillary because of some study then also say Bernie is so much more liberal than Hillary that he won't get anything done.

You've actually used both arguments in this same thread.

[Doctor_J]

153. The dinos and fan clubs don't deal in reality at all

Whatever pops into their heads, even if it is the exact opposite of what they said two minutes ago. Then all of the rest nod their heads sagely, and on it goes.

[raouldukelives]

188. Yep. I used to find it funnier, now it usually just makes me sad. nt

[MaggieD]

194. I never said he couldn't get anything done....

I said he is not electable.

[hobbit709]

146. On some things, on others not so much.

[KingCharlemagne]

158. The 1,000,000+ Iraqi civilian dead take great consolation in the

notion that Hillary is a 'liberal.'



With friends like Hillary, who needs enemies? Most single mothers on AFDC could say the same thing about her 'liberal' husband.

[JDPriestly]

159. Who are Hillary's economic advisors?

To prepare for the campaign, Clinton has spent months meeting with economic policy experts, including Heather Boushey, whose research focuses on inequality, and Teresa Ghilarducci, a labor economist and retirement policy expert. The policy development process has been overseen by aides Jake Sullivan and Dan Schwerin.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/11/clinton-advisors-hillarys-campaign-will-focus-on-middle-classs-economic-security/

Heather Boushey testified before Congress on disparity in wealth.

My computer gave out before I could read it al (cannot scroll down)l, but here is the link.



Looks very interersting.

[Octafish]

180. Do you think Ghilarducci or Boushey will serve as Secretary of the Treasury?

[JDPriestly]

195. No way. They are for show.

[Orsino]

164. The profoundly conservative business of the Senate still fails as a measure of liberalism.

I'm glad that Clinton was on our side of the aisle, but the aisle itself is on the right. "More liberal than Obama" is not all that heartening, either.

There are much better scales on which to measure the people's business.

[sendero]

182. Obama was "more liberal than Obama"...

...... until he got elected.

I've followed HRC since the 90s. She is "liberal" on social issues and decidedly NOT on economics/business/taxation issues, I don't need some study done by idiots to tell me who HRC is, she has a very clear record.

[seabeyond]

170. here is the thing, all you that immediately jumped on my ass cause i called populist...

white, man, middle/upper middle class, and our privileged, educated youth movement.

you are making your privilege more important than human lives.

that is a misstep. really. you do not want to demand privilege in front of lives. you are hurting sanders. you want to be inclusive, not exclusive and build your demographics, not shrink demographics. simple math

and over three weeks? it sits there for all to see. we watch us create this exclusive campaign of populist.

you reject whole swaths.... of votes.

87% of black vote. i mean all... go into the thread and listen to our black members tell you about being black. that might be a starter for a reality check. you can still pull the sander campaign out of limited, into unlimited..... if your choose inclusive and stop rejecting others voices.

but. you are not willing to do it.

when i point out the lives of our young black men. our girls and women. that are dying. women imprisoned because of their body. gays... without basic fuckin HUMAN rights.

and your argument is

by gosh..... 'if i do not get what i want, i am gonna show that damn democratic party. i refuse to vote democratic cause i am better than that! '

arent you saying fuck all those lives?

and also saying....

you are on the moral high ground?

this makes no sense and there is plenty of factual information to back up this trajectory that you are on, what the populist is creating here. what is being done is not gonna work. not kinda or sorta. but you are gonna piss a lot of people off. you know. those of us with sons that may be shot in the back by a police. those of us with daughters that might take a hanger to themselves. or have to register their miscarriage. or carry a rapists baby and live that for life.

do tell me how cavalier i am with lives. explain this to me.

when you state you will not vote for clinton if she wins the primary, you shun lives being lost.

personally. in real life. that is when i say. how dare you....

[NaturalHigh]

285. "personally. in real life. that is when i say. how dare you...."

Yes, how dare someone vote his or her conscience. I mean, YOU know how they need to vote, right?

I'm voting for Hillary Clinton, as I'm sure you know, but I wouldn't dare to tell someone he or she had to. Everyone owns his own vote.

[seabeyond]

287. they get to own walking away from the lives of our girls and boys, if they chose to not vote 2016

[NaturalHigh]

288. Frankly I would respect you more if you would just say...

that you hated Sanders and demanded that everyone voted for Clinton. All of this "discrete wooing" and "Oh I'm still making up my mind" bit has gotten way more than tiresome.

[seabeyond]

289. you would respect lying? what the fuck ever. i think that says all about your agenda. anyway

[NaturalHigh]

290. "i think that says all about your agenda"

I had a similar thought when replying to you. If you want to compare agendas, I'm happy to oblige you. Mine is pretty obvious. I plan to vote for Hillary Clinton, but I don't post OP after OP (not so) subtly bashing Bernie Sanders and the "populist" movement.

[seabeyond]

291. except i am not calling you a liar, telling you what you think, and demanding you abide by my story.

find where i bash sanders. anywhere.

populist? damn straight. and i will continue. sanders? no.

[marmar]

181. I guess that "left suckered by the right into anti-Hillary talking points" meme flopped.

So trying something new now?

[MaggieD]

186. It didn't flop - it's going on daily

DU is a bubble. It's not the real world. The extreme left may feel aided and comforted here. But outside this bubble you are pretty much ignored. You don't have a seat at the table for a reason. It's just not the reason you think.

[marmar]

189. Yet you feel the need to post these things constantly......

...... despite the irrelevancy of the "extreme" left. Why not just ignore us, since we're so irrelevant? ..... Seems like the extreme center is worried about something, n'est-ce pas?

[MaggieD]

191. I do - want to know why?

Because the Bernie folks spew non-stop hate on HRC, Obama, and other democrats. They use right wing talking points, and downright false information to do it. And I think it's wrong for it to go unchallenged.

This is DEMOCRATIC Underground. I strongly support the Democrats Bernie supporters are tearing down 24/7. I am not the interloper here. I am not the one out of place.

[Bobbie Jo]

192. Absolutely right.

This is DEMOCRATIC Underground. I strongly support the Democrats Bernie supporters are tearing down 24/7. I am not the interloper here. I am not the one out of place.

You've certainly drawn the ire of the clique here, nipping at your heels in every thread - and I mean every thread.

Keep up the good work.

[AgingAmerican]

184. It's all part of her 'evolution'

The bottom line is, Bernie won't have to shift or 'evolve' any of his beliefs. He will continue to say what he has always said.

[MaggieD]

187. And he will continue to NOT be president

... And not pass meaningfull legislation.

[AgingAmerican]

193. You guys need some new memes

nt

[Warren Stupidity]

197. This is a fun game!

Hillary was against LGBT equality, Hillary IS against LGBT equality.
Hillary was a Republican, Hillary IS a Republican.

See how silly a game this is?

[Doctor_J]

199. Hillary was a friend of Goldman Sachs, Hillary is a friend of Goldman Sachs

Hillary was a friend of Monsanto, Hillary is a friend of Monsanto

Hillary was in favor of fracking, Hillary is in favor of fracking

Hillary was in favor of healthcare, Hillary is not in favor of healthcare (oops)

You're right, this is easy and fun

[Warren Stupidity]

201. Much more fun than actually discussing issues.

It is sort of emblematic of why our political system is utterly fraudulent.

[bobjacksonk2832]

215. I like Hillary, but she's still too right wing in many ways

After all, she voted for the Iraq War back in 2003. I'd prefer to vote for Sanders. But if she gets nominated, I'll happily vote for her over ANY GOP candidate.

[TM99]

230. Hopefully some Clinton supporter will read this

and understand what it is saying.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/7-things-people-who-say-theyre-fiscally-conservative-socially-liberal-dont?akid=13127.319429.Klaw85&rd=1&src=newsletter1036718&t=1

This is just as relevant to people like her as it is Cruz or Bush.

[DiverDave]

247. Until she gets elected, that is

I don't trust her.
I will never vote r, never.
But I will certainly tell you all that I, and many others, told you so.

[treestar]

252. The idea she is not liberal is hilarious

From people who only view from their own viewpoint. It's as ridiculous as right wingers who called Bush a liberal.

[MaggieD]

258. So true

[Exilednight]

264. She sounds, and I quote what you often say about Bernie here, Maggie,

fringe left

[NaturalHigh]

286. And while Obama is also a “hard core liberal"...

I have no doubt that Secretary Clinton will be our next president, and I hope she turns out to be more of a "hard core liberal" than President Obama once she gets in office.